Tuesday, September 17, 2019

Couple Raising Baby Gender Neutral

A couple have decided to keep their baby's sex a secret from close relatives in a bid to avoid gender bias. Hobbit Humphrey, 38, and Jake England-Johns, 35, refer to their 17-month-old child, Anoush, with the pronoun, "they", and dress them in both girls' and boys' clothing. The married couple, who are members of the climate action group, Extinction Rebellion, have been accused of "virtue signalling". However, they are keen to let their child, Anoush, choose their own gender identity when they are old enough, because they wish for them to "grow into their own person". Close family members have not been told the child's sex and grandmother, Camille, only found out when she changed a nappy.

Comments

Just when you thought the gender-neutral thing couldn't get any stranger...

#1 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 03:50 PM

This sentence from the article is a perfect example of why "they" is confusing.

"However, they are keen to let their child, Anoush, choose their own gender identity when they are old enough, because they wish for them to "grow into their own person".

Huh?

After scratching my head and parsing the sentence, I *think* the first 'they' is talking about the parents, the first 'their' is the parents, the second 'their' is the baby, the second 'they' the baby (though the parents don't seem very old emotionally) third 'they' is the parents, the first 'them' is the child, and the third 'their' is the child.

I think.

#2 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 04:03 PM

--The married couple, who are members of the climate action group, Extinction Rebellion

Of course they are. Multiple cult membership is required to be a good intersectional Leftist. Probably vegans and Tesla drivers as well.

#3 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-17 04:06 PM

"A couple have decided to keep their baby's sex a secret from close relatives "

how is that any of your business? or any of the "keep government out of our lives" cult for that matter?

#4 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2019-09-17 04:07 PM

how is that any of your business?

It's no one's business.

Conservatives can't abide anyone living their lives any differently than they do.

#5 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-17 04:12 PM

Multiple cult membership is required to be a good intersectional Leftist.

Whereas the only requirement to being a righty is a lobotomy.

#6 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-17 04:13 PM

newsmaven.io

Native Americans traditionally assign no moral gradient to love or sexuality; a person was judged for their contributions to their tribe and for their character. It was also a custom for parents to not interfere with nature and so among some tribes, children wore gender-neutral clothes until they reached an age where they decided for themselves which path they would walk and the appropriate ceremonies followed. The Two Spirit people in pre-contact Native America were highly revered and families that included them were considered lucky. Indians believed that a person who was able to see the world through the eyes of both genders at the same time was a gift from The Creator.

#7 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-17 04:18 PM

Why are these "extinction rebellion" cultists having any kids in the first place? Don't they want to save the planet?

#8 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-17 04:38 PM

That kids gonna be ------ up. Thanks parent unit 1; thanks parent unit 2.

#9 | Posted by homerj at 2019-09-17 05:51 PM

how is that any of your business? or any of the "keep government out of our lives" cult for that matter?
#4 | POSTED BY CHIEFTUTMOSES

They'll make it our business by demanding we cater to their lunacy.

#10 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-09-17 05:53 PM

"That kids gonna be ------ up. Thanks parent unit 1; thanks parent unit 2.

#9 | POSTED BY HOMERJ "

There's no doubt about that. When he gets three or four years old and becomes aware of two different sexes, he's going to be confused about where he fits in. He'll probably think he's some sort of freak and have trouble processing the information ratioinally.

Why would a set of parents want to do such an awful mind ---- to their child?

#11 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 05:56 PM

I don't see where they are asking me to do anything

What are they forcing you do, sheep?

Talk about lunacy'

#12 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2019-09-17 06:20 PM

Just when you thought the gender-neutral thing couldn't get any stranger...

"Strange" doesn't automatically equal bad.

Nobody who meets a toddler needs to know their gender. They can treat the child as an individual instead of putting a bunch of gender expectations on the tyke.

#13 | Posted by rcade at 2019-09-17 07:13 PM

That kids gonna be ------ up.

Or the kid will be able to reach their potential without a bunch of gender expectations being put on them from a young age forward. If they want to do something or wear something they won't have to deal with what society expects them to be like.

#14 | Posted by rcade at 2019-09-17 07:15 PM

Or the kid will be able to reach their potential without a bunch of gender expectations being put on them from a young age forward. If they want to do something or wear something they won't have to deal with what society expects them to be like.

POSTED BY RCADE AT 2019-09-17 07:15 PM | REPLY

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#15 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-17 07:17 PM

"Nobody who meets a toddler needs to know their gender. "

It's not about other people. It's about the toddler. He is going to feel very strange when he learns the rest of the world is male or femaie. That will surely mess with his mind, even negatively thinking he doesn't belong to one or the other.

Children are not emotionally equipped to deal with complex gender issues. That comes years later in life. The parent's are f'ed up to subject a child to something he's not emotionally able to handle.

#16 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 07:17 PM

We didn't get enough attention as children so we're gonna make sure the whole world knows about you.

#17 | Posted by LostAngeles at 2019-09-17 07:42 PM

This sentence from the article is a perfect example of why "they" is confusing.

"However, they are keen to let their child, Anoush, choose their own gender identity when they are old enough, because they wish for them to "grow into their own person".

Huh?

#2 | POSTED BY GOATMAN

It's easy to figure out. "They" and "their" are used more than once in sentences all the time. Learned this stuff in elementary school.

#18 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2019-09-17 07:46 PM

"It's easy to figure out. "They" and "their" are used more than once in sentences all the time. Learned this stuff in elementary school.

#18 | POSTED BY DEREK_WILDSTAR "

And in elementary school they taught us they are 3PP pronouns.

Or did your elementary school teach you they could be 3PS pronouns?

#19 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 07:49 PM

It's easy to figure out. "They" and "their" are used more than once in sentences all the time. Learned this stuff in elementary school.

POSTED BY DEREK_WILDSTAR AT 2019-09-17 07:46 PM | REPLY

It's very hard if one's a bigot.

#20 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-17 07:49 PM

If they want to do something or wear something they won't have to deal with what society expects them to be like.
POSTED BY RCADE

Yeah and 'they' will be able to shop every aisle in Target.

#21 | Posted by 6thPersona at 2019-09-17 07:54 PM

"It's very hard if one's a bigot.

#20 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR "

It has nothing to do with bigotry. Learn this.

Tell me, laura -- in the following sentence how many people are the subject?

"They explained the book very well to us".

You don't know?

Why, Laura, what a bigot you are!

#22 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 07:54 PM

Or the kid will be able to reach their potential without a bunch of gender expectations being put on them from a young age forward RCade

I don't see it as expectations, but structure.

Children need structure, as they get older that structure is dismantled.

Too much freedom or lack of structure at a young age borders on neglect, which has its own set of psychosis.

#23 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-17 08:06 PM

Good to see all our right wing philosophers here postulating on topic they have zero knowledge of.

Goat is so worried about this poor kid, he's sure this kid will be psychologically damaged. His gut told him so.

And the mattress, who refuses to identify its gender, is sure this will reek havoc on the child's future.

Perhaps this child also needs to be raised Catholic. Who knows what life without organized religion would do to this kid's future.

#24 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-17 08:15 PM

And the mattress, who refuses to identify its gender, is sure this will reek havoc on the child's future.

I don't claim its a certainty. I say it more probable.

As a group, both highly gender nonconforming and androgynous youth reported higher levels of psychological distress compared to their gender-conforming
williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu

Perhaps this child also needs to be raised Catholic. Who knows what life without organized religion would do to this kid's future.
#24 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

Well we can see what life without it is doing to our children, talk about zero knowledge.

#25 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-17 08:28 PM

I would love to send these parents the book: Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.

#26 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-17 08:32 PM

Yeah and 'they' will be able to shop every aisle in Target.

POSTED BY 6THPERSONA AT 2019-09-17 07:54 PM | REPLY

They will be lucky because their world is their oyster. Think about it like shopping at the grocery store and not having to worry about the social stigma of wanting some food item that's not permitted by the short sighted society and putting that item in their cart with a smile on their face. We could all be so lucky at that age.

#27 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-17 08:36 PM

"Goat is so worried about this poor kid, he's sure this kid will be psychologically damaged. His gut told him so.

#24 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK "

Do you have any evidence that I am wrong? If so, please present it rather than the mindless jerking knee.

#28 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 08:38 PM

Isn't this kid, at a very early age, going to wonder, if mom is a woman, and dad's a man, what am I? It's not as if the parents are androgynous robots or something that can't be identified as very different, i.e., binary.

#29 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-17 08:41 PM

"Hobbit Humphrey"?

Either this is second generation idiocy or these are attention wh*res.

#30 | Posted by Tor at 2019-09-17 08:41 PM

Isn't this kid, at a very early age, going to wonder, if mom is a woman, and dad's a man, what am I?

You morons are acting as if you hadn't been told your gender as a child you would have grown you to be a fffking (R)Tard.

#31 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-17 08:44 PM

"You morons are acting as if you hadn't been told your gender as a child you would have grown you to be a fffking (R)Tard.

#31 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2019-09-17 08:44 PM "

Your obvious deflection validates Nulli''s point.

#32 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 08:46 PM

Do you have any evidence that I am wrong?
#28 | POSTED BY GOATMAN

I can't prove the existence of something that doesn't exist. Duh.

Perhaps you can provide studies that show not being told what gender you are as a child leads to psychological difficulties later in life.

That's your claim. Prove it.

#33 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-17 08:47 PM

You morons are acting as if you hadn't been told your gender as a child you would have grown you to be a fffking (R)Tard.

POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2019-09-17 08:44 PM | REPLY

Well they are bigots. They're naturally stupid.

#34 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-17 08:48 PM

Your obvious deflection...
#32 | POSTED BY GOATMAN

Please identify the deflection you're referring to.

#35 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-17 08:48 PM

--and dress them in both girls' and boys' clothing

What is this, other than using the kid as a kind of "social justice" experiment? A guinea pig? Let's ignore the actual -------- and the actual hormones and see what turns out.

#36 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-17 08:50 PM

#30

How about Both...does Both work for you?

#37 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-09-17 08:50 PM

"Please identify the deflection you're referring to.

#35 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK "

Not playing that game, snoofy ver 2.0.

#38 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 08:51 PM

#38 | POSTED BY GOATMAN

Unable to identify the "deflection".

Yea. It doesn't exist.

Thanks for admitting as much.

#39 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-17 08:52 PM

Anoush is an Armenian name meaning "sweet-tempered".

At least Hobbit didn't name her kid Gandalf or Sauron. I wanted to name my daughter Galadriel. Or Dulcinea from Don Quixote. But my wife finally agreed on a biblical name.

Here's someone who identifies as non-binary or "gender -----". Which apparently means neither. I guess. She turned out alright. Not a trust fund Trumpist, at any rate.

as a child

www.youtube.com

Guitar monkey

www.youtube.com

super looper, guitar monkey

www.youtube.com

I don't much care for kids used as psychological experiments, especially like these:

www.cracked.com

... but so far this story is nothing like those.

#40 | Posted by Corky at 2019-09-17 08:55 PM

"That's your claim. Prove it.

#33 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2019-09-17 08:47 PM "

Easy.

I don't know why I jump through your hoops because I know for a fact you will slice, dice, bend, spindle, and mutilate the link and say, "You're wrong, goatman. You are a game player. You don't care about the truth.

So go for it, snoofy ver 2.0. I really don't give a ----. You asked for proof. I give it. Now spend your next hour telling me how it is wrong. Bye, snoofy.

"The Risk of Gender-Neutral Parenting"

dyske.com

#41 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 08:56 PM

I'm in favor of gender-neutral clothing for tots, as i think it's obnoxious to have everything blue or pink, monster trucks or princesses. I'm also in favor of gender-neutral toys rather than "you play with trucks, you play with dolls." Toys should be educational first and foremost.

All of that said, pushing this gender-neutrality out into the external world is setting the kid up for a life of ostracism, cruelty and bullying. I wouldn't even name my kid a weird name, let alone do something like this.

#42 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-17 08:57 PM

"Thanks for admitting as much.

#39 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK "

Self declared victories are so meaningful.

Not.

#43 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 08:58 PM

"Unable to identify the "deflection".
#39 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK "

Unable to use a PGUP key.

#44 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 08:59 PM

#43 | POSTED BY GOATMAN

How sad, you can't back up your claim.

Seems simple. I posted one sentence. You think you could identify the "deflection".

#45 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-17 08:59 PM

All kidding aside, while I think that this is freaky hippie shht (and having spent endless summers in Felton, CA I know hippy) I tend to agree with RCade-kids figure it out on their own. My bigger worry is Hobbit and Jake-England ---- up little Anoush when "they" decide on "their" gender (most likely by comparing -------- with other kids) by trying to hard to keep "them" non-conformist. If the hippy freaks let Anoush alone, "they" should be okay.

#46 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-09-17 09:01 PM

Is it going to pants on Monday, a dress on Tuesday, gender-neutral on Wednesday, and so forth?

#47 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-17 09:02 PM

I remember the first time I noticed the difference in plumbing. I was 4 years old and had befriended the girl next door. We were both running around outside and coincidentally both had to take a Pisstopher at the same time. We pulled down our drawers and I noticed the plumbing was different and remember being kind of surprised by it. This kid will figure things out before too long because biology. I have no idea how this particular case will turn out but this has been tried before and typically sex became pretty obvious based upon activities and toys that the children gravitated to.

#48 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-17 09:02 PM

The Risk of Gender-Neutral Parenting"
dyske.com
#41 | POSTED BY GOATMAN

This blog of anecdotal evidence was your proof?

How dumb.

#49 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-17 09:03 PM

All of that said, pushing this gender-neutrality out into the external world is setting the kid up for a life of ostracism, cruelty and bullying. I wouldn't even name my kid a weird name, let alone do something like this.

#42 | POSTED BY JOE

Yep. Hopefully the parents' love for their child over-rides whatever they are hoping to accomplish with this.

#50 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-17 09:05 PM

"I can't prove the existence of something that doesn't exist. Duh.

#33 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK "

Thank you.

You admit there is no evidence that I am wrong. IOW, there is no evidence raising a kid gender neutral is beneficial, and as such you cannot present any evidence from psychologists, or psychological institutions.

Again, thank you for your candid admission.

#51 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 09:05 PM

"How dumb.

#49 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK"

LOL! Told you!

You are an easy mark.

Now it is your turn to rebut my link.

Go.

#52 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 09:06 PM

Well they are bigots. They're naturally stupid.

#34 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR

I don't know which is more hilarious. Laura aggressively chiding someone for slaughtering the source (earlier today) or Laura accusing anyone of bigotry. The lack of self-awareness is absolutely astounding.

#53 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-17 09:07 PM

It's not about other people. It's about the toddler. He is going to feel very strange when he learns the rest of the world is male or femaie.

You have no idea how that child will feel. You had a bunch of gender expectations forced on you from a young age, like the rest of us, and can't contemplate what it might have been like to grow up without that.

What you're saying is like believing a child never shown a pool until age 6 will be incapable of learning how to swim.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're welcome.

#54 | Posted by rcade at 2019-09-17 09:09 PM

Let's ignore the actual -------- and the actual hormones and see what turns out.
#36 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

Sex =/= gender, idiot.

Why don't you just your bitter pie hole and let people live as they want. Don't like it, don't interact with them.

You know, like all those people around you who act like you don't exist.

#55 | Posted by jpw at 2019-09-17 09:10 PM

"#55 | POSTED BY JPW AT 2019-09-17 09:10 PM "

Oh, look -- the stalker who claims to have me plonked is nipping at my heels again.

Once again proof the jpw can plong me but I still live rent free in his head. LOL

#56 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 09:14 PM

"What you're saying is like believing a child never shown a pool until age 6 will be incapable of learning how to swim."

Psychological issues are fare more comlex than learning to swim.

#57 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 09:16 PM

Now it is your turn to rebut my link.
Go.
#52 | POSTED BY GOATMAN

I did. Perhaps you missed it.

Let's have fun at your expense.

Use the outdated method of scrolling up by using the PGUP key on your ancient keyboard and you'll find my rebuttal.

#58 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-17 09:18 PM

#56 | POSTED BY GOATMAN

It's gross how desperate for attention you are.

#59 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-17 09:19 PM

like the rest of us, and can't contemplate what it might have been like to grow up without that. - RCade

I can look at the data today and say it's a problem.

#60 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-17 09:20 PM

S'riously don't know why these trolls like goat n' dull sheep are allowed to still post here, particularly considering how often they've been banned; they are only here to troll.

It's why I don't have much time for or patience with this site these days.

#61 | Posted by Corky at 2019-09-17 09:22 PM

For me the question is do the parents let the child develop a gender organically or do they work to suppress natural tendencies.

If it's the former the child will very likely (97.7% odds) gravitate toward boy or girl things and everything will probably work out fine.

Again, my hope is love for the child overrides any ideological experiment using their (is that the proper pronoun?) child as a guinea pig.

#62 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-17 09:23 PM

--S'riously don't know why

What kind of person substitutes an apostrophe for the "e"? It doesn't save a keystroke, so is it something that teenagers do to be cool?

#63 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-17 09:24 PM

I can look at the data today and say it's a problem.

What data?

#64 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-17 09:27 PM

I can't even see why this is an argument. I don't live their lives and they don't live mine. It's none of my business how others raise their children.

#65 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2019-09-17 09:31 PM

--don't know why these trolls like goat n' dull sheep are allowed to still post here

A "s'rious" Stalinist that wants an undisturbed blue bubble. Today's Left.

#66 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-17 09:31 PM

For me the question is do the parents let the child develop a gender organically or do they work to suppress natural tendencies.

Based on what I read.

I believe their goal is to allow the child to develop its gender organically.

They don't seem to want to suppress the child. They just don't want to be an influence on the child.

#67 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-17 09:31 PM

Why are these "extinction rebellion" cultists having any kids in the first place? Don't they want to save the planet?

#8 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-17 04:38 PM

You'll get to thank Trump when the smog in L.A. is as bad as it was before emissions standards diminished it.

Yay Trump!

Trump administration to revoke California's authority to set stricter auto emissions standards

#68 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-09-17 09:31 PM

Fun fact research has shown that women don't treat baby boys as well as they treat baby girls.

#69 | Posted by Tor at 2019-09-17 09:32 PM

I can't even see why this is an argument. I don't live their lives and they don't live mine. It's none of my business how others raise their children.
#65 | POSTED BY LFTHNDTHRDS

Yes. This is the correct response to news like this.

#70 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-17 09:34 PM

#68

And that has what to do with this thread...?

#71 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-09-17 09:42 PM

Lol #68

That's the biggest WTF.... musta been posting off a word doc on multiple threads.

#72 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2019-09-17 09:45 PM

--And that has what to do with this thread...?

It wouldn't be a retort thread without some gratuitous trump bashing.

#73 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-17 09:47 PM

I can look at the data today and say it's a problem.

That you view this as a problem says more about you than it does about anyone else.

#74 | Posted by rcade at 2019-09-17 09:56 PM

Again, my hope is love for the child overrides any ideological experiment using their (is that the proper pronoun?) child as a guinea pig.

We were all gender guinea pigs. Our parents and society shackled us to gender expectations so rigid we even had assigned colors and rigid rules about garment choice and permitted hobbies.

#75 | Posted by rcade at 2019-09-17 09:59 PM

And that has what to do with this thread...?

Reply to NULLIFIDIAN's post "...don't they want to save the planet"

That was easy. Enjoy the smog.

#76 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-09-17 10:01 PM

"I can look at the data today and say it's a problem"

You know what's really messed up? If we took a poll right here on the Retort of who was gay and asked the same question about their lives 50 years ago. Yeah it would have been a problem. But times change and so so insignificant people who like to play busybody.

#77 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2019-09-17 10:03 PM

-- musta been posting off a word doc on multiple threads.

Which is probably useful if you have accumulated a lot of links to spam the retort with repeatedly. Or want to use a ton of HTML like that weirdo Hans.

#78 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-17 10:03 PM

We were all gender guinea pigs. Our parents and society shackled us to gender expectations so rigid we even had assigned colors and rigid rules about garment choice and permitted hobbies.

#75 | POSTED BY RCADE

Sort of. Fact is with rare statistical variances, left to their own devices boys gravitate to boy things and girls gravitate to girl things.

Men and women are different and said differences are more than genitalia and mammaries.

#79 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-17 10:06 PM

@ Rcade FWIW Jon Stewart let his kids go whatever direction they wanted in terms of gender and sexuality and as he put it "they turned out to have 1950's grade heteronormative DNA built right into them".

#80 | Posted by Tor at 2019-09-17 10:08 PM

@ Rcade FWIW Jon Stewart let his kids go whatever direction they wanted in terms of gender and sexuality and as he put it "they turned out to have 1950's grade heteronormative DNA built right into them".

#80 | POSTED BY TOR A

Yep. NW. This is science/biology.

#81 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-17 10:09 PM

As probably the only parent of a trans kid on the blog I feel somewhat more qualified to comment than most. Of course what I am saying is personal experience and anecdotal so take it for what it is.

We raised our child with dresses stuffed animals a "plink" painted room bows in hair (usually pulled out quickly) etc. So we definitely didn't raise them gender neutral, however if they wanted a toy truck we were fine with it, when they wanted to play football at about 6 I checked the rules and there was no rules about boys only so we went to tryouts only to be told, not in these words but this idea, no coach wants a girl on the team. That was despite the fact they were just as big and honestly more aggressive. So mom and another lady there talked her into cheerleading. She did it for one season and never tried again. In third grade playing basketball on the playground with boys she chipped a tooth going hard to block a shot.

Now he's my son. My thoughts are the kid will find their own path no matter what the parents think. Pretty much baring the parents outright rejecting the kids choices kids are smarter than we give them credit for and way more resilient.

#82 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2019-09-17 10:09 PM

I would love to send these parents the book: Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.

POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2019-09-17 08:32 PM | REPLY

Oh force a world view on the basis of what a book says. Isn't that the problem with religion as well??. I wished you would educate yourself on the issue that isn't based on right winged ideology. You would hopefully change your mind.

#83 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-17 10:12 PM

-- musta been posting off a word doc on multiple threads

I posted it once. Making bold links in HTML is so easy even NULLIFIDIAN could learn how.

I even typed "Yay Trump!" He should have been thrilled. Curmudgeons never are ...

#84 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-09-17 10:13 PM

#82 | POSTED BY TAOWARRIOR

I like that post. Everything in it.

Thank you for sharing.

#85 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-17 10:19 PM

-- Making bold links in HTML is so easy even NULLIFIDIAN could learn how.

I know how to do it, just don't think it's important to call attention to my links as obviously you do. It's just a blog. You're not changing any minds and neither am I.

#86 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-17 10:19 PM

OK When I was a child I played with both boys toys as well as girls toys. You could find me with my Tonkas with my dolls playing in the end of the driveway which was sandy at the time. I also wore women's clothes a lot under my boys clothes because if my mother found out she would have been PISSED. It was something I HAD to do. I never felt right without my girly items. There were times where I would go I can't think feminine thoughts today I have to male and yeah that never worked because she would always show up.

#16 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR AT 2019-09-17 10:28 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

#87 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-17 10:29 PM

I grew up with a few kids who came out as gay in adulthood. Even when they were 5 or 6, they preferred different things than the rest of us boys. When they came out it was a big, 'meh, cool." Nothing their parents did or didn't do would have changed it.

Those who think being gay or trans is a choice couldn't be more wrong.

#88 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-09-17 10:31 PM

@ Rcade FWIW Jon Stewart let his kids go whatever direction they wanted in terms of gender and sexuality and as he put it "they turned out to have 1950's grade heteronormative DNA built right into them".

#80 | POSTED BY TOR A
Yep. NW. This is science/biology.

POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2019-09-17 10:09 PM | REPLY

sitn.hms.harvard.edu

"It's All in Your Head" " Except When It's Not
Sex determination " the way we are "coded" into a biological sex " is complicated in and of itself. There are far more options than just "male" or "female," and countless instances of species that can actually transition from one sex to another within a single lifetime. With most mammals, however, the majority of individuals are cisgender male or female; transgender individuals are estimated to comprise about 0.3% of the adult U.S. population.

Little is known about the causes of transsexuality, and many of the studies that have been conducted " particularly psychological studies " have since been widely discredited (more on that later). However, scientists do seem to have some information on the biological basis of several factors.

First and foremost, is gender identity genetic? It seems the answer is yes " though, as with most traits involving identity, there is some environmental influence. One classic way for scientists to test whether a trait (which can be any characteristic from red hair to cancer susceptibility to love of horror movies) is influenced by genetics is twin studies. Identical twins have the exact same genetic background, and are usually raised in the same environment. Fraternal (nonidentical) twins, however, share only half their genes, but tend to also be raised in the same environment. Thus, if identical twins tend to share a trait more than fraternal twins, that trait is probably influenced by genetics. Several studies have shown that identical twins are more often both transgender than fraternal twins, indicating that there is indeed a genetic influence for this identity. So, what genes might be responsible?

#89 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-17 10:38 PM

I would love to send these parents the book: Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.

POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2019-09-17 08:32 PM | REPLY

Oh force a world view on the basis of what a book says. Isn't that the problem with religion as well??. I wished you would educate yourself on the issue that isn't based on right winged ideology. You would hopefully change your mind.

#83 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR

I am not advocating forcing anything. it's a book that resonates with a lot of people.

I never felt right without my girly items. There were times where I would go I can't think feminine thoughts today I have to male and yeah that never worked because she would always show up.

#16 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR

This is NOT a 'gotcha' - do you still like The Dukes of Hazard?

#90 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-17 10:42 PM

If we took a poll right here on the Retort of who was gay and asked the same question about their lives 50 years ago. Yeah it would have been a problem. But times change and so so insignificant people who like to play busybody.
#77 | POSTED BY LFTHNDTHRDS

Why would it be a "problem"? For you? I don't have a problem with it, I am just talking about the ratio of transgender/non-conforming children and their psychological stress, as well as the sheer numbers, which California doesn't just have a disproportionate share.

What does "gay" have to do with "gender"?

Its like you think you understand the problem, but your statement clearly says otherwise.

#91 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-17 10:46 PM

#89

Laura,

I appreciate the link. I really do. I understand that gender dysphoria is real. I understand that transgender people are not freaks and didn't choose to be that way. It's not a lot different with gay people. I didn't choose to be attracted to women and I have seen nothing to suggest that being gay is a choice.

It does happen. My only point is that it's an extreme minority statistically and, solely in the context of this thread, odds are overwhelming that this child gravitates toward its sex because science/biology unless "they's parents try to suppress it.

#92 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-17 10:47 PM

This is NOT a 'gotcha' - do you still like The Dukes of Hazard?

Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-17 10:42 PM | Reply

Of course. What's a love for a show have to do with gender??

#93 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-17 10:49 PM

What does "gay" have to do with "gender"?

It doesn't. I have two gay cousins - 1 female and 1 male on different sides of the family - neither self-identifies as anything other than their biological sex.

#94 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-17 10:49 PM

This is NOT a 'gotcha' - do you still like The Dukes of Hazard?

Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-17 10:42 PM | Reply
---
Of course. What's a love for a show have to do with gender??

#93 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR

Good to hear. Thanks for answering honestly.

#95 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-17 10:52 PM

I am not advocating forcing anything. it's a book that resonates with a lot of people.

I don't think that book was very good ;-)

I would just look at outcomes, data, and we know there are psychological problems people of this particular demographic report; its beyond normal distribution and standard deviations.

Sure some are what they are, like Tao articulates, no issue. But my hunch is many parents, and people are pushing it for "facebook" likes.

How do I know this? 27%? really? Whats the racial demographic? 65-70% Caucasian?

#96 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-17 10:53 PM

www.smithsonianmag.com

When Did Girls Start Wearing Pink?
Every generation brings a new definition of masculinity and femininity that manifests itself in children's dress
image: thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com()/public-media.si-cdn.com

Blue and Pink Baby Clothes
Pink and blue arrived as colors for babies in the mid-19th century; yet, the two colors were not promoted as gender signifiers until just before World War I. ( Jaroon/iStock)
By Jeanne Maglaty
SMITHSONIAN.COM
APRIL 7, 2011
3.2K59251016.3K
Little Franklin Delano Roosevelt sits primly on a stool, his white skirt spread smoothly over his lap, his hands clasping a hat trimmed with a marabou feather. Shoulder-length hair and patent leather party shoes complete the ensemble.

We find the look unsettling today, yet social convention of 1884, when FDR was photographed at age 2 1/2, dictated that boys wore dresses until age 6 or 7, also the time of their first haircut. Franklin's outfit was considered gender-neutral.

But nowadays people just have to know the sex of a baby or young child at first glance, says Jo B. Paoletti, a historian at the University of Maryland and author of Pink and Blue: Telling the Girls From the Boys in America, to be published later this year. Thus we see, for example, a pink headband encircling the bald head of an infant girl.

Why have young children's clothing styles changed so dramatically? How did we end up with two "teams""boys in blue and girls in pink?

"It's really a story of what happened to neutral clothing," says Paoletti, who has explored the meaning of children's clothing for 30 years. For centuries, she says, children wore dainty white dresses up to age 6. "What was once a matter of practicality"you dress your baby in white dresses and diapers; white cotton can be bleached"became a matter of Oh my God, if I dress my baby in the wrong thing, they'll grow up perverted,' " Paoletti says.

The march toward gender-specific clothes was neither linear nor rapid. Pink and blue arrived, along with other pastels, as colors for babies in the mid-19th century, yet the two colors were not promoted as gender signifiers until just before World War I"and even then, it took time for popular culture to sort things out.

For example, a June 1918 article from the trade publication Earnshaw's Infants' Department said, "The generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl." Other sources said blue was flattering for blonds, pink for brunettes; or blue was for blue-eyed babies, pink for brown-eyed babies, according to Paoletti.

In 1927, Time magazine printed a chart showing sex-appropriate colors for girls and boys according to leading U.S. stores. In Boston, Filene's told parents to dress boys in pink. So did Best & Co. in New York City, Halle's in Cleveland and Marshall Field in Chicago.

#97 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-17 10:58 PM

lettoysbetoys.org.uk

It's easy for retailers to make a positive difference, and they should benefit too
We are not asking retailers to change the toys they sell, but to organise toys by theme and function rather than gender. There's no need for boys' and girls' aisles: take down the pink and blue signs in stores and on packaging, and instead let toys be toys. Is a doll really harder to find marked dolls'?

It's an easy change to make. See our before and after gallery to see how stores have changed.

Plenty of UK retailers sell toys, books, bikes and more items for children without signposting to girls or boys. Let Toys Be Toys recognises shops with good practice with a Toymark award for good practice. Over 50 retailers have now been awarded across the UK; take a look at our directory of Toymark awarded retailers. Shoppers and retailers themselves can also nominate a store for the Toymark.

#98 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-17 11:01 PM

--Whats the racial demographic? 65-70% Caucasian?

Going out on a limb, here, but I'm guessing the people promoting this ideology are white and affluent.

#99 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-17 11:02 PM

BTW It used to be menfolk who wore makeup and high heels to make themselves look more regal then women co opted the style and that was that. BTW Men still wear high heels in the form of cowboy boots.

#100 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-17 11:35 PM

FWIW Jon Stewart let his kids go whatever direction they wanted in terms of gender and sexuality and as he put it "they turned out to have 1950's grade heteronormative DNA built right into them".

FWIW, and more to Stewart's point, heterosexual children will grow up to be heterosexual, regardless of what parents do.

The parents in the article are choosing not interfering with their child's development of its self, its identity.

How they go about doing this is on them. But as Tao points out quite nicely, people generally know themselves, if they're allowed to feel comfortable being whom ever they are.

The more we encourage people to be comfortable with who they are, the healthier society will be.

#101 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-18 03:20 AM

A "s'rious" Stalinist that wants an undisturbed blue bubble. Today's Left.

#66 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

Or less background noise.

This is what they add to the DR. Go to 0:55.

m.youtube.com

#102 | Posted by jpw at 2019-09-18 08:15 AM

Its like you think you understand the problem, but your statement clearly says otherwise.

#91 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS AT 2019-09-17 10:46 PM | FLAG:

I can tell you that I grew up with a sister who is gay. I can clearly see a difference in the way she was accepted then versus now. Same with this couple. 30-40 years from now they will likely be viewed a lot differently. but you know this. Besides, it's none of my business how they raise their child. Just as in the case of my sister who raised her child in a household of two gay women.

#103 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2019-09-18 08:52 AM

Children are not emotionally equipped to deal with complex gender issues. That comes years later in life. The parent's are f'ed up to subject a child to something he's not emotionally able to handle.

#16 | POSTED BY GOATMAN

Children are very flexible and resilient. You would be surprised at what they can handle, or what just doesn't bother them.

Also, gender is only complex when you are trying to force them into a certain stereotype. If you just let them do what they want to do, that is the simplest thing possible. And, if you teach them to use a gender neutral pronoun, then they don't have the "complexity" of having to determine someone's sex to talk about them.

Just because YOU think it is complex and YOU aren't "emotionally equipped" to handle it, doesn't mean they aren't.

#104 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-09-18 11:10 AM

I can look at the data today and say it's a problem.

#60 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS

Data? Where?

Republicans are usually allergic to "data".

Can you link to it so we can have an intelligent discussion about it?

#105 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-09-18 11:11 AM

This couple might just be trying too hard. Or jumping the gun at least. But you guys are unnecessarily getting up on your hind legs to bark about it. I dressed my daughter in both girls and boys clothes when she was small because that crap just doesn't matter. Plus boys clothes were more functional and she liked the colors better. But she was raised as a girl, or at least we used female pronouns. If she comes to me one day and says she's gender fluid or trans we'll be supportive and we'll deal with it.

#106 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2019-09-18 11:21 AM

What I see being overlooked in this discussion is what the role of a parent is/should be.

To me a parent is there to guide their children through their stages of development to help them be best prepared for adult life on their own.

Figuring out how one fits into the world is a challenging part of growing up, and a parent plays a role in helping their child navigate this. This doesn't meant they have to tell them how, or determine how they do it... but there is a role the parent should be fulfilling here.

What these parents are doing, and my here are advocating is leaving the child to navigate a confusing and often hostile environment with no help or guidance.

Rcade uses the example that a child who has never seen a pool until the age of 6 can still learn to swim. What this doesn't account for, is by that time many if not most of their peers will already be adept at swimming. Doing cannonballs, diving for rings, etc.... While this child will be unexposed, just learning, most likely feeling like an excluded outsider. You're basically advocating that we place the child near a pool as an infant, and let them self determine what happens. Rather than taking them into the pool, exposing them to water, teaching them a dog paddle, etc...

We are supposed to be here to raise the next generation, not just let them wander off on their own. Helping them figure out who they are and how they fit into the world is just another aspect of this.

#107 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2019-09-18 11:42 AM

Scrolling back a bit, I read this:

Tell me, laura -- in the following sentence how many people are the subject?
"They explained the book very well to us".
You don't know?

No, Laura would not know, since goat violated grammar rules.

You see, one one does not reference a person or people by a pronoun without PREVIOUSLY referencing that person with a noun, the way they did.

#108 | Posted by RevDarko at 2019-09-18 12:03 PM

108...

I don't really have an issue with the they/them singular/plural argument as there are plenty of examples where we use they singularly.... In a restaurant a guy gets up to go to the mens room, and the waitress comes back to clear the table and asks the people seated "are they finished with this?" indicating their meal and if she can clear the plate. She could have said is he done with this, but we often use they.

To Goats point though... a man and a woman get up from the table at the end of meal as in the example above... if one of them has chosen to go by they/them...lets say the woman... and the waitress indicating the mans plate says "are they done with this" while the physical motion would indicate the mans plate the waitresses words would be asking about the woman's.

It's a weak example as even in it, it has the physical queues to indicate what's going on. If it were a purely a written statement... A man and woman walk away from a table, and the waitress asks are they done... who is she asking about.

Again, not much to worry about there.

#109 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2019-09-18 12:14 PM

Kwr,

Goat is likely to have a bit of a nutter when they find out Merriam Webster has now approved and added the singular personal pronoun "them".

#110 | Posted by RevDarko at 2019-09-18 12:23 PM

I am so excited to start seeing articles 10-20 years from now of kids coming out and saying how freaking stupid their parents were to do something like this. We are going to hear a lot of this and I'm just so ready for it.

#111 | Posted by humtake at 2019-09-18 12:38 PM

"Goat is likely to have a bit of a nutter when they find out Merriam Webster has now approved and added the singular personal pronoun "them".

#110 | POSTED BY REVDARKO "

There has been a genderless 3PS pronound for centuries. It is "it". What's wrong with that one? It's less confusing than using a plural pronoun that was approved by lexicographers this year to be used as singular.

The LGBTQ community once said many years ago they want to be treated like everyone else. No reasonable person could have a problem with that. But "everyone else" doesn't demand changes to the language because they don't like the commonly accepted pronouns applicable to them.

#112 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-18 12:52 PM

"It" is not used because "it" had never been considered a proper pronoun for a person (unless in a derogatory manner, which is, perhaps, the reason for your preference) You know this and you are trolling as you ever do, and, as ever, you are incorrect.

#113 | Posted by RevDarko at 2019-09-18 12:56 PM

""It" is not used because "it" had never been considered a proper pronoun for a person (unless in a derogatory manner, which is, perhaps, the reason for your preference) You know this and you are trolling as you ever do, and, as ever, you are incorrect.

#113 | POSTED BY REVDARKO "

Not true. It is quite common and acceptable to call a baby "it". It's certainly a lot more common than using "them" as a singular pronoun.

en.wikipedia.org(pronoun)

#114 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-18 01:04 PM

I wonder how the parents will answer this question:

"Mommy, am I a boy or a girl?"

#115 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 01:06 PM

The only reason I wouldn't call a baby "it" is because it conjures up images of a creepy homicidal clown and Pennywise is apparently not sufficiently kind to the LGBQT community (yes, that's actually a meme).

#116 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 01:08 PM

"This sentence from the article is a perfect example of why "they" is confusing."

Nobody's confused, provided they read the readline.

But without context, information is often confusing.

#117 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 01:09 PM

Seems common enough to ask, especially when unsure of gender, to ask "is IT a boy or a girl". With no malice meant or taken.

I don't think Goat is off base to suggest that it is an existing, viable option.

Unfortunately I think it has a history of use to intend harm... someone looking at someone with derision and asking "what is IT" with the intent to negatively infer that they can't tell if someone is a man or a woman.

It'd be great if people could reclaim that word in only it's positive light, but I'm not in that boat so I guess it's not for me to say.

#118 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2019-09-18 01:10 PM

Fair. Once "it" had been used for babies, however, from your own link:

The genitive form its has been used to refer to human babies and animals, although with the passage of time this usage has come to be considered too impersonal in the case of babies, as it may be thought to demean a conscious being to the status of a mere object.[1] This use of it is also criticized when used as a rhetorical device to dehumanize a speaker's enemies, implying that they were little more than animals or objects.

Again, as ever.

#119 | Posted by RevDarko at 2019-09-18 01:12 PM

Gotta say, I thought my 107 would have gotten more reactions.

#120 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2019-09-18 01:12 PM

"is IT a boy or a girl". With no malice meant or taken.

Also, with no confusion as to what it refers to.

#121 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 01:12 PM

""Mommy, am I a boy or a girl?"

#115 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2019-09-18 01:06 PM "

And will the parents make sure they aren't nude around the child so lest he find out his sexual identity? *gasp!* I know whem my son was young, he would jump in the shower with me after playing catch or other dad/son things. Would these parents not allow that?

Funny story on above One evening I was taking a shower and my son came home dirty. His mom told him to go "jump in the shower with your dad". She told me he balked and my wife asked what's wrong. He said, "I'm tired of dad's big fat hairy butt in my face." My wife told me she laughed and said "I understand". He never took a shower with me again. LOL

#122 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-18 01:15 PM

"You see, one one does not reference a person or people by a pronoun without PREVIOUSLY referencing that person with a noun, the way they did.

#108 | POSTED BY REVDARKO"

"They say the weather will be nice today."

Who is they? How many people are "they"? The old lady next door whose corns hurt? The weather forecasters and channel 9?

#123 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-18 01:24 PM

You're grasping straws, goat.

#124 | Posted by RevDarko at 2019-09-18 01:35 PM

Gotta say, I thought my 107 would have gotten more reactions.

#120 | POSTED BY KWRX25

That it got so little reaction suggests to me that nobody has any interest in trying to refute it.

#125 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 01:46 PM

The problem with using 'they' as singular is it ----- up the verb conjugation.

"They is home." That is ugly grammar.

#126 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 01:48 PM

Seems common enough to ask, especially when unsure of gender, to ask "is IT a boy or a girl". With no malice meant or taken.

Just don't do it around the Knights who say Knee.

#127 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 01:49 PM

It's unfamiliar grammar, to be sure, but I wouldn't call it ugly.

#128 | Posted by RevDarko at 2019-09-18 01:50 PM

Just don't do it around the Knights who say Knee.

I think they means "ni".

#129 | Posted by RevDarko at 2019-09-18 01:52 PM

I think they means "ni".

#129 | POSTED BY REVDARKO

Thanks for the correction.

#130 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 01:53 PM

And will the parents make sure they aren't nude around the child so lest he find out his sexual identity? *gasp!* I know whem my son was young, he would jump in the shower with me after playing catch or other dad/son things. Would these parents not allow that?

#122 | POSTED BY GOATMAN

Did you even read the article that YOU posted? Or were you just interested in continuing the cycle of right wing outrage and victimhood?

FTA...
"The neutral in gender neutral refers to us trying to behave neutrally towards our child rather than trying to make them neutral."

The whole point is to prevent YOU from imposing YOUR VIEW of what types of behaviors, clothing, toys, and speech are "gender-appropriate" on this child. Because, as you and other conservatives have made clear, gender is VITAL in how you interact with and behave toward other people.

If this child wants to be addressed as male (he, him, his) and tells his parents that, then I am sure they will oblige (regardless of what they have between their legs). And if the child wants to be addressed as female (she, her, hers) and tells her parents that, then the same will apply. And if they prefer to stay gender neutral, then I am sure that will be respected as well.

I have seen no evidence that this will harm the kid. Why all the hubbub and angst? Are the snowflakes feeling uncomfortable and triggered and need to go watch some NFL to be in their "safe space" (I promise the mean black people won't kneel at you)?

#131 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-09-18 01:53 PM

Here's the problem with this thread. So much of what is being discussed is speculative. This could end up harming this child in some way and it may not. We just don't know. I'm curious at what age will the parents address sex. For me that is the biggest question. Like KRWX said in #107 the risk for the child is confusion, anxiety, etc. Perhaps even being ostracized if the kid displays genuine ignorance about sex in front of other children. Let's face it, kids can be really cruel.

#132 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 01:58 PM

Chromosomes don't lie.

#133 | Posted by lee_the_agent at 2019-09-18 02:05 PM

Gotta say, I thought my 107 would have gotten more reactions.

#120 | POSTED BY KWRX25
That it got so little reaction suggests to me that nobody has any interest in trying to refute it.

#125 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Fine... if you feel like you need the attention. I didn't think your post really added much to the conversation, but I will go ahead and refute it since others seem to think it did.

The flaw in your logic is that you assume that by them not telling OTHER PEOPLE what the gender is, it means that they will not explain gender to their child. There is no reason to believe that is the case. They are just trying not to impose their stereotypes on the child, and preventing other people from imposing stereotypes.

I am a cis male, so I can only reference this second hand. But I have heard many places about how males are treated differently than females (just because of their gender). Maybe Laura can chime in and talk about her experiences.

That binary treatment, and the shoving of people into stereotypical "boxes" is a crutch for our society that limits the potential of people. I am all for anyone who wants to protect their child from having their potential limited.

#134 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-09-18 02:09 PM

"I have seen no evidence that this will harm the kid. Why all the hubbub and angst? Are the snowflakes feeling uncomfortable and triggered and need to go watch some NFL to be in their "safe space" (I promise the mean black people won't kneel at you)?

POSTED BY GTBRITISHSKULL "

It's not about me. It's about the child. I already stated this and the article doesn't suggest in the slightest it is about anything but the child, not society in general. So your strawman is shot down.

Children are emotionally incapable of handling complex issues such as gender. There will be a conflict in this child's mind when he sees his parents won't allow him to be like other kids with the same sex. You may think that a child can process this sort of information rationally. They can't. That's why kids have tantrums, are irrationally defiant, etc. Through no fault of their own, they do not possess the psychological tools that enable them to deal with complex issues. And gender based issues are complex. Pretend otherwise, but you are wrong.

And perhaps you can tell me what black people and your promise to keep them from assuming a kneeling position in my proximity have to do with this. Likewise, what does the one's sports viewing preference (NFL) have to do with this? Talk about a lame deflections! LOL

#135 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-18 02:21 PM

It's not about me. It's about the child.

I thought it was about the grammatical confusion.

#136 | Posted by RevDarko at 2019-09-18 02:57 PM

I am a cis male, so I can only reference this second hand. But I have heard many places about how males are treated differently than females (just because of their gender). Maybe Laura can chime in and talk about her experiences.
That binary treatment, and the shoving of people into stereotypical "boxes" is a crutch for our society that limits the potential of people. I am all for anyone who wants to protect their child from having their potential limited.

POSTED BY GTBRITISHSKULL AT 2019-09-18 02:09 PM | REPLY

Well for 43 years of my life I had white male privilege. I was king of my own mountain. I received the highest of respects. Not because I earned it. I didn't. It was because I was perceived to be a white male and that's top banana. With 3 words I went from being worth 1 dollar to .50. I am not even worth what a cis gendered female is(See Jeff's multiple anti Trans threads for proof).

#137 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-18 03:50 PM

(See Jeff's multiple anti Trans threads for proof).

None of which were actually anti-trans but I get it, you have a persecution complex.

#138 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 04:00 PM

"None of which were actually anti-trans"

Fear of predators in bathrooms isn't anti-trans?

#139 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 04:02 PM

#139 Nope.

#140 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 04:03 PM

"The problem with using 'they' as singular is it ----- up the verb conjugation."

People ---- up verb conjugation all the time. It's not a "problem" that needs any fixing.

#141 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 04:03 PM

#140 Fear of predators in bathrooms is how you justify being anti-trans.

#142 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 04:04 PM

"That binary treatment, and the shoving of people into stereotypical "boxes..."

POSTED BY GTBRITISHSKULL AT 2019-09-18 02:09 PM "

Yet you seem quite willing to shove a kid into a gender neutral box, regardless how the kid feels about it, or (in the case of a boy) how it affects him getting taunted by other boys on his "skirt day". You also don't seem to worry about a child having to deal with the complex issue like gender ambiguity.

A child's mind is not that sophisticated. They cannot deal with complex psychological issues. My son had to deal with a very complex issue but he was not able to because, according to his psychologist, most children his age could not. As a result, he was in two years of therapy and psychoactive drug treatment.

Let kids be kids. Don't force them to have to deal with issues they are not equipped to handle.

#143 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-18 04:05 PM

"The whole point is to prevent YOU from imposing YOUR VIEW of what types of behaviors, clothing, toys, and speech are "gender-appropriate" on this child"

LOL..these parents impose just as much as any. What if the kid wanted to be a vegan (or carnivore....only the parents get to decide. What if the kid wanted to be carbon free (or not, the parent are going to blow that. It's one thing not to impose your religious values on your kid at a young age; but what sex they are..? Too far. Anyone who has taken child development knows boys gravitate to trucks and girls to dolls. It's a fact. Not all boys, but most; not all girls; but most.
Can't wait until this small person become a teenager and realizes how f'd up his parents really are. I bet he knows long before then though.
But what do I know. The real question is what does Mike Lofgren think about it.

#144 | Posted by homerj at 2019-09-18 04:06 PM

"Fear of predators in bathrooms isn't anti-trans?

#139 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

No. It's common sense. That I don't let my granddaughters go into bathrooms unless I know it's safe makes me anti-trans? LOL What an utterly bizarre and irrational leap of logic.

As a grandfather and one who knows my heart, I can say with 100% certainty it does not.

#145 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-18 04:08 PM

Wrong again.

#146 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 04:09 PM

"It's not about me. It's about the child.

I thought it was about the grammatical confusion.
#136 | POSTED BY REVDARKO "

Nope. Raising a child gender neutral has nothing to do with grammar.

#147 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-18 04:09 PM

(See Jeff's multiple anti Trans threads for proof).
None of which were actually anti-trans but I get it, you have a persecution complex.

POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2019-09-18 04:00 PM | REPLY

Sure they were. Don't lie about it like you usually do.

#148 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-18 04:27 PM

Chromosomes don't lie.

POSTED BY LEE_THE_AGENT AT 2019-09-18 02:05 PM | REPLY |

abcnews.go.com

True Diagnosis
Atwood is not a freak -- nor is she half-man, half-woman. But her DNA says she's a man. That's because she has male chromosomes, an X and a Y, instead of two Xs, like most females. It's a disorder of sexual development in the womb called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, or AIS. It can be passed down through the mother or occur as a spontaneous mutation.

"There are probably about seven-and-a-half thousand people, women, in the U.S. with the condition," said Dr. Charmian Quigley, a pediatric endocrinologist.

Despite the male chromosomes, Quigley said, women with AIS are just that -- women.

MY WORDS FOLLOW

There Lee goes again. Talking out his fanny pouch again.

#149 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-18 04:42 PM

"That I don't let my granddaughters go into bathrooms unless I know it's safe makes me anti-trans?"

It does when your definition of "safety" is "the absence of trans women in the women's bathroom."
Ask JeffJ if you still don't get it.

#150 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 04:47 PM

"#140 Fear of predators in bathrooms is how you justify being anti-trans."
"Wrong again."

Really.
You're okay with trans women using the women's bathroom, JeffJ?
That is great news!

#151 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 04:48 PM

#148

Nope, you're wrong too.

#152 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 04:54 PM

So, you're not okay with trans women using the women's room, and you also claim you're not anti-trans.

Explain.

#153 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 04:56 PM

""That I don't let my granddaughters go into bathrooms unless I know it's safe makes me anti-trans?"

It does when your definition of "safety" is "the absence of trans women in the women's bathroom."
Ask JeffJ if you still don't get it.
#150 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2019-09-18 04:47 PM "

You asked in post 139, "Fear of predators in bathrooms isn't anti-trans?

#139 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2019-09-18 04:02 PM "

I answered truthfully and my answer cannot in any way be disputed. Fear of predagors in bathrooms does not mean one is anti-trans.

Sorry you can't handle the truth and rather than just shutting up, resort to snoofygames (tm) as you always do.

#154 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-18 05:00 PM

"Fear of predagors in bathrooms does not mean one is anti-trans."

It does when you fear predators are using false claims of being trans to gain access, so your solution is to not allow any trans women into the women's room.

#155 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 05:02 PM

"So, you're not okay with trans women using the women's room, and you also claim you're not anti-trans.
Explain.

#153 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

I'm not OK with mushrooms on a hamburger, but I am not anti-mushroom.

Snoofygames. I wish I could say, "you gotta love them", but that simply isn't the case.

#156 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-18 05:04 PM

"I'm not OK with mushrooms on a hamburger, but I am not anti-mushroom."

Horrible analogy.
Not all people need to eat burgers, or mushrooms.

All people need to use the bathroom.

#157 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 05:04 PM

"I'm not OK with mushrooms on a hamburger, but I am not anti-mushroom."

Let's explore this analogy:
If someone else wanted mushrooms on their hamburger, are you fine with that?
If a trans woman wants to use the women's room, are you fine with that?

#158 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 05:07 PM

""Fear of predagors in bathrooms does not mean one is anti-trans."

It does when you fear predators are using false claims of being trans to gain access, so your solution is to not allow any trans women into the women's room.
#155 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2019-09-18 05:02 PM "

No, it doesn't. As I have said before, I will NEVER allow a person I know to be a man into the same bathroom my granddaughter is in. Never. That doesn't mean I am anti trans. Not in the least. So again, you are wrong.

Don't try to pretend to know my heart and what I believe, snoofy. That is as lame as a logical fallacy can get.

And thus endeth the latest episonde of snoofygames.

Bye now, troll!

#159 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-18 05:08 PM

"I will NEVER allow a person I know to be a man"

Do you know trans women to be men or women?

#160 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 05:09 PM

"Don't try to pretend to know my heart and what I believe, snoofy."

The entire point of communication is to know those things about you.
Stop posting, I'll stop doing it.

#161 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 05:09 PM

And thus endeth the latest episonde of snoofygames.

I'm surprised you played along for as long as you did.

#162 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 05:16 PM

Snoofy and Laura think it's hatred if someone opposes Jessica Yaniv from hanging out naked in a girl's locker room.

#163 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 05:18 PM

"Snoofy and Laura think it's hatred if someone opposes Jessica Yaniv from hanging out naked in a girl's locker room."

No I don't.

But I do think it's hatred if you use one malefactor as an example of why all trans women should only be allowed to use the men's room.

Funny how you won't say if that describes you or not...

#164 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 05:19 PM

Snoofy and Laura think it's hatred if someone opposes Jessica Yaniv from hanging out naked in a girl's locker room.

Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 05:18 PM | Reply

I thought you abhorred Straw men. Apparently not.

#165 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-18 05:24 PM

No I don't.

Why should Yaniv be prevented from entering a girl's locker room?

#166 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 05:25 PM

I thought you abhorred Straw men. Apparently not.

#165 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR

So, you are opposed to Yaniv, a trans woman, from using a girl's locker room?

#167 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 05:26 PM

So, you are opposed to Yaniv, a trans woman, from using a girl's locker room?

Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 05:26 PM | Reply

No I don't oppose it. If she's a trans woman she belongs in the girls locker room.

#168 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-18 05:27 PM

No I don't oppose it. If she's a trans woman she belongs in the girls locker room.

#168 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR

OK. But you admit that it's not trans hatred to oppose her using a girl's locker room?

I'm trying to understand your POV.

#169 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 05:37 PM

And perhaps you can tell me what black people and your promise to keep them from assuming a kneeling position in my proximity have to do with this. Likewise, what does the one's sports viewing preference (NFL) have to do with this? Talk about a lame deflections! LOL

#135 | POSTED BY GOATMAN

Glad you asked. It is really very similar. NFL players kneeling during the anthem (as a protest) is a passive act that does not affect you unless YOU DECIDE to take offense. And conservatives blew their rocker over it.

How does this effect you? If you actually meet this child, you may have to use "bad grammar" to communicate effectively about them? Yet, here we are, conservatives AGAIN blowing their rocker about something that REALLY does not affect them.

#170 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-09-18 05:39 PM

OK. But you admit that it's not trans hatred to oppose her using a girl's locker room?

I'm trying to understand your POV.

Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 05:37 PM | Reply

Of course it's trans hatred. It's no different than when White men had a problem with black women and girls using the same restroom as white women and girls.

#171 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-18 05:44 PM

I'm just so glad you don't have a trans kid Jeff. I fear you would deny them their rights.

#172 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-18 05:46 PM

"How does this effect you? If you actually meet this child, you may have to use "bad grammar" to communicate effectively about them? Yet, here we are, conservatives AGAIN blowing their rocker about something that REALLY does not affect them."

The uproar is less about it bothering them than it is about giving pause to centrist Democrats (I don't use the term moderates because what they consider moderate I consider malicious indifference) pause, to make them look skeptically on the progressive agenda as a whole. Or at least to put the fight for civil rights on longer time table. As far as I can tell, even on this thread, the plan is working well.

#173 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2019-09-18 05:54 PM

I'm just so glad you don't have a trans kid Jeff. I fear you would deny them their rights.
#172 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR

My guess is that he would try. But kids are savvy and overly confident these days.

I know the closet is still a thing, but the context of that is greater now than ever before, yes?

#174 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2019-09-18 05:57 PM

"The uproar is less about it bothering them than it is about giving pause to centrist Democrats (I don't use the term moderates because what they consider moderate I consider malicious indifference) pause, to make them look skeptically on the progressive agenda as a whole. Or at least to put the fight for civil rights on longer time table. As far as I can tell, even on this thread, the plan is working well.

POSTED BY HAGBARD_CELINE AT 2019-09-18 05:54 PM"

It works both ways. The democrats are also using it as a political weapon. The agree witth the parents because it is oh, so cool and such progressive thinking, not giving a damn as to the possible psychological damage that is being done to the child.

#175 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-18 05:59 PM

"But you admit that it's not trans hatred to oppose her using a girl's locker room?"

^
By that same token, it is "trans hatred" when that's your best argument for why trans women shouldn't use the women's room.

#176 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 06:13 PM

My guess is that he would try. But kids are savvy and overly confident these days.

I know the closet is still a thing, but the context of that is greater now than ever before, yes?

Posted by rstybeach11 at 2019-09-18 05:57 PM | Reply

Tis the reason why I utilize the single toilet Water closets. Stalls have shrunk in size in the past decades.

#177 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-18 06:16 PM

Of course it's trans hatred. It's no different than when White men had a problem with black women and girls using the same restroom as white women and girls.

#171 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR

There's clearly been a breakdown in communication as you keep doing 180's.

Let's back up.

Snoofy and Laura think it's hatred if someone opposes Jessica Yaniv from hanging out naked in a girl's locker room.

Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 05:18 PM | Reply

I thought you abhorred Straw men. Apparently not.

#165 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR


So, I allege you view it as hatred if a person opposes Jessica Yaniv, a trans woman, from hanging out naked in a girl's locker room and you claim it's a straw man. I interpreted that as you DON'T view it as hatred to oppose her being in a girl's locker room.

Then you follow with this:

Of course it's trans hatred. It's no different than when White men had a problem with black women and girls using the same restroom as white women and girls.

#171 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR

So, is opposing Jessica Yaniv from being naked in girl's locker rooms trans hatred or not?

#178 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 06:20 PM

#159

So if you don't know that they are trans you have no issue? AKA a person who looks stereotypically like a woman walks into the bathroom right before your granddaughter and you have no problem?

Most trans women I have met look like women, maybe a bit more like a masculine woman (rare these days with hormone and surgical options) but not to the point you would question it. They learn how to walk, talk and female mannerisms for that very reason. So for what I would guess is the majority of trans women you simply won't know. Unless you do a crocodile Dundee on every woman who goes into the restroom, even then with gaffs, or bottom surgery you might not know.

So really bathroom bills are a solution looking for a problem, we already have bills to deal with predators in restrooms.

#179 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2019-09-18 06:22 PM

#178

It would be trans hatred to oppose her using a women's locker room AND if she were "perving out" on the other ladies in there she could be asked to leave or even have legal action (at least in America no clue about Canadian laws) taken against her.

#180 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2019-09-18 06:43 PM

#179 I was very careful to limit my scenario to locker rooms and not include restrooms.

#180 Hanging out naked in a locker room isn't technically 'perving out'. People change clothes and take showers in locker rooms.

#181 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 06:49 PM

#181

I was responding to goat's #159 in #179. I'm on the road all day so my responses are slow until I get home for the evening.

As far as hanging out naked in the locker room no it's not "perving out" if you change chat and go on your merry way if you are leering at people or otherwise making them uncomfortable then yes it is. My son was kicked out of a locker room at a gym once he was changing but never took his boxers off and it wasn't until he switched shirts that a dude got uncomfortable seeing his binder (they look a lot like a large sports bra) and complained. That I would consider trans hate.

Had he been in there hanging out for an extended period of time and staring at dongs then yeah that is being a creeper. Funny thing is he was in there with another trans guy who had already had top surgery and nothing was said about his friend. In fact his friend had to go back in to get his stuff.

I will admit you have a point with worrying about creeps but there are laws about it. If it is an issue we may have to strengthen anti-predator laws but that can be done without flat out saying no trans people.

#182 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2019-09-18 07:21 PM

Does the father pee sitting down? Gender bias and all.

#183 | Posted by pirate at 2019-09-18 09:52 PM

"Does the father pee sitting down? Gender bias and all.

#183 | POSTED BY PIRATE "

No, but to ensure their vow of non gender bias, the mother stands.

#184 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-18 09:53 PM

"So, is opposing Jessica Yaniv from being naked in girl's locker rooms trans hatred or not?"

Bring Jessica Yaniv into the conversation is probably trans hatred, at this point:
Yaniv's Other Racket: How a Single Gender Troll Managed to Get Hundreds' of Women Thrown Off Twitter
quillette.com

Sort of like bringing up Gosnell in an abortion thread.

#185 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 10:06 PM

"Bring Jessica Yaniv into the conversation is probably trans hatred, at this point:
#185 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

Says the guy who thinks fear of predators in bathrooms is anti-trans. LOL

Face it, everything is anti-trans to you.

"Fear of predators in bathrooms isn't anti-trans?
#139 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

#186 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-18 10:10 PM

Bring Jessica Yaniv into the conversation is probably trans hatred, at this point:

How so?

She's a transgender. Is opposing her access to girls' locker rooms hatred? Yes or no? If no, paint me a picture.

#187 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 10:12 PM

"Says the guy who thinks fear of predators in bathrooms is anti-trans."

No, but fear of unnamed predators in bathrooms when you're really talking about fear of Jessica Yaniv in bathrooms is anti-trans, though.

#188 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 10:13 PM

Sort of like bringing up Gosnell in an abortion thread.

#185 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Gosnell may be a piker compared to the recently deceased abortionist who had over 2000 fetus parts preserved in his house.

#189 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 10:13 PM

No, but fear of unnamed predators in bathrooms when you're really talking about fear of Jessica Yaniv in bathrooms is anti-trans, though.

#188 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

First off, we are talking about locker rooms, not bathrooms.

Way to try and dishonestly move the goalposts.

More importantly - Why is opposition to Yaniv - a trans woman - being in a girl's locker room trans hatred?

You have used weasel-words to avoid addressing this question.

#190 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 10:16 PM

""Says the guy who thinks fear of predators in bathrooms is anti-trans."
No...
#188 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Yes. I ------- quoted you, snoofy. LOL

Jesus, you would deny a blatant act of face-masking against you in a football game, even when shown the replay.

You're something else, man.

#191 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-18 10:17 PM

"Is opposing her access to girls' locker rooms hatred? Yes or no? If no, paint me a picture."

This question has been answered, in #164.
If you need a picture, see #185.

If you're unable to have this discussion beyond the scope of JV, then I'm done.

#192 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 10:18 PM

"Yes. I ------- quoted you, snoofy. LOL"

Out of context.

#193 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 10:18 PM

"Why is opposition to Yaniv - a trans woman - being in a girl's locker room trans hatred?"

It's not.
Stop assigning the same false position, over and over.

#194 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 10:19 PM

"Gosnell may be a piker compared to the recently deceased abortionist who had over 2000 fetus parts preserved in his house.
#189 | POSTED BY JEFFJ"

Piker with regards to what, stockpiling fetus parts?
Is that what Gosnell's atrocity was?
No, it is not.

#195 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 10:21 PM

Gosnell's atrocities were multi-faceted.

Stocking "fetal parts" (way to dehumanize) was only one facet of his atrocities.

As it pertains to that facet he appears to have left Gosnell in the dust.

Quite frankly I'm shocked you characterize much of what Gosnell did (outside of running a killing factory that wasn't sterile) as an atrocity.

I just read today that abortions have hit their lowest annual number since '73. I'm guessing that saddens you.

#196 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 10:27 PM

""Yes. I ------- quoted you, snoofy. LOL"
Out of context.

#193 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

*yawn* Ok, snoofygames (tm) here is post 188 in full context. It is still a denieal of what you said earlier::

""Says the guy who thinks fear of predators in bathrooms is anti-trans.
[posted by goatman]
"
No, but fear of unnamed predators in bathrooms when you're really talking about fear of Jessica Yaniv in bathrooms is anti-trans, though.
#188 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2019-09-18 10:13 PM

#197 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-18 10:30 PM

It's not.
Stop assigning the same false position, over and over.

#194 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Laura says it is.

Why would you deny Yaniv, a trans woman, access to a girls' locker room?

#198 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 10:32 PM

Why would you deny Yaniv, a trans woman, access to a girls' locker room?
#198 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Why would you?

#199 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-18 10:35 PM

Why would you?

#199 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

I'll answer after Snoofy answers.

#200 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 10:45 PM

Jeff You have a trans daughter. She comes home crying because the school won't allow her to use the girls locker room. What do you tell her??

#201 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-18 10:55 PM

I haven't answered enough for you, JeffJ?

"Why would you deny Yaniv, a trans woman, access to a girls' locker room?
#198 | POSTED BY JEFFJ"

I'll take it a step further for you:
Based on complains of other people in the locker room, I'd probably trespass her from the premises.

#202 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-18 11:23 PM

Jeff You have a trans daughter. She comes home crying because the school won't allow her to use the girls locker room. What do you tell her??

#201 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR

Laura you have a 13-year old hetero daughter. She comes home crying because the she encounters a large naked 15 year old boy, claiming to be a trans girl, in the locker room while she is also naked and when she complains to the school and is reprimanded for even suffering a degree of trauma, what do you tell her?

#203 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 11:55 PM

Based on complains of other people in the locker room, I'd probably trespass her from the premises.

#202 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Oh. So you are willing to 'trespass' (sic) her rights?

#204 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 11:56 PM

Laura you have a 13-year old hetero daughter. She comes home crying because the she encounters a large naked 15 year old boy, claiming to be a trans girl, in the locker room while she is also naked and when she complains to the school and is reprimanded for even suffering a degree of trauma, what do you tell her?

Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 11:55 PM | Reply

I see my question was too hard for you to answer. I didn't think you would since you aren't an honest broker.

#205 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-19 12:02 AM

Your question was very easy to answer, Laura.

Answer my question about Yaniv, since it was asked first, and then I'll gladly answer your question.

#206 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-19 12:05 AM

"...and when she complains to the school and is reprimanded for even suffering a degree of trauma, what do you tell her?"
#203 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Newsworthy, Jeff.

#205 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR

Laura, I genuinely respect you for being true to who you are, but you have a blindspot to other's views and emotions regarding sexuality. You're understandably hypersensitive to the subject matter, but you've got to look at it from other perspectives, as well as the opportunity for it to be misused or even abused.

#207 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-09-19 12:10 AM

Laura, I genuinely respect you for being true to who you are, but you have a blindspot to other's views and emotions regarding sexuality. You're understandably hypersensitive to the subject matter, but you've got to look at it from other perspectives, as well as the opportunity for it to be misused or even abused.

#207 | POSTED BY SHEEPLESCHISM

That is very well-stated but, when it comes to Laura (and probably Snoofy) any chance of an honest and rational discussion on any of this with Laura is met with - disagree with me on anything, and that includes topics that have nothing to do with being transgender and you are a horrible bigot who hates trans-people because you disagree with me about anything.

#208 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-19 12:16 AM

"Laura you have a 13-year old hetero daughter."

No need for the daughter to be hetero.
But go ahead, throw the whole kitchen sink in there.
Maybe the daughter was raped, but never reported it to the police.

#209 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-19 12:46 AM

Oh. So you are willing to 'trespass' (sic) her rights?
#204 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

I just said I was.
Are you willing, or even capable, of having a discussion?

#210 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-19 12:47 AM

And there goes Snoofy, right off the cliff.

#211 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-09-19 12:50 AM

"Are you willing, or even capable, of having a discussion?

#210 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

We all are, but you and your stupid game playing are a big put off to having one with you.

#212 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-19 12:55 AM

Your question was very easy to answer, Laura.
Answer my question about Yaniv, since it was asked first, and then I'll gladly answer your question.

POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2019-09-19 12:05 AM | REPLY

I did. You're the coward who won't answer mine.

#213 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-19 08:29 AM

Jeff You have a trans daughter. She comes home crying because the school won't allow her to use the girls locker room. What do you tell her??

#201 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR

I explain to her that her biological condition puts her at odds with all of the other girls who expect to be able to use a locker room without any biological boys present.

Your question was very easy to answer, Laura.
Answer my question about Yaniv, since it was asked first, and then I'll gladly answer your question.
POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2019-09-19 12:05 AM | REPLY
I did. You're the coward who won't answer mine.

#213 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR

I got 2 conflicting answers to my Yaniv question and asked for clarification and didn't see any.

I'll ask this question again:

So, is opposing Jessica Yaniv from being naked in girl's locker rooms trans hatred or not?

#178 | POSTED BY JEFFJ


And, you never answered my hypothetical (although in fairness I didn't answer yours, which was asked first, until just now):

Here it is again:

Laura you have a 13-year old hetero daughter. She comes home crying because the she encounters a large naked 15 year old boy, claiming to be a trans girl, in the locker room while she is also naked and when she complains to the school and is reprimanded for even suffering a degree of trauma, what do you tell her?
Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-18 11:55 PM | Reply

#214 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-19 08:55 AM

She's a transgender. Is opposing her access to girls' locker rooms hatred? Yes or no? If no, paint me a picture.

#187 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Why do you oppose her in particular being able to use a women's locker room? Just because she doesn't look like a woman?

It seems to me that you are stuck on a slippery slope argument, but maybe I don't understand what you are arguing.

#215 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-09-19 08:58 AM

Laura you have a 13-year old hetero daughter. She comes home crying because the she encounters a large naked 15 year old boy, claiming to be a trans girl, in the locker room while she is also naked and when she complains to the school and is reprimanded for even suffering a degree of trauma, what do you tell her?

#203 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Depends on why she feels she is traumatized by it. Is it just because someone with a penis saw her naked? Was she doing anything to make her feel uncomfortable (leering, making comments, etc)? Does the "large" have something to do with it (no pun intended)? Did she feel intimidated?

What do YOU tell her if she comes home crying because she encountered a large, naked 15 year old (cis) girl in the locker room acting the same as the trans girl in your hypothetical above? How does the penis make a difference?

#216 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-09-19 09:03 AM

How does the penis make a difference?

#216 | POSTED BY GTBRITISHSKULL

Why are locker rooms segregated by sex in the first place?

#217 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-19 09:50 AM

Why are locker rooms segregated by sex in the first place?

#217 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Prudishness. A carryover from religious attitudes towards sex. You can see it on display with your Vice President. He refuses to be alone with any woman (other than his wife) because he is afraid he will turn into some maniacal sex monster and assault her if there is not another person there to chaperone them.

It is also probably an attempt to maintain it as a non-sexual environment (you might call it a "safe space"), but just separating based on gender is probably pretty outdated considering that we have acknowledged that gay people DO actually exist in our society.

I answered your question. Are you going to answer mine?

#218 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-09-19 10:00 AM

Did you mean that as an actual question or was that an indirect attempt at an Appeal to Tradition?

#219 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-09-19 10:07 AM

Prudishness.

You should really ask girls/women who use locker rooms on a regular basis how they feel about it.

Why do you oppose her in particular being able to use a women's locker room? Just because she doesn't look like a woman?
It seems to me that you are stuck on a slippery slope argument, but maybe I don't understand what you are arguing.

#215 | POSTED BY GTBRITISHSKULL

I oppose it because most girls oppose it. Further, the way it gets advocated is that as long as the male claims to be transgender, even if he's not, he should be allowed free access.

In Yaniv's case she's a predator - yes, transgender people can be predators. THAT is why I'm opposed to her being able to access girl's locker rooms.

#220 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-19 10:24 AM

In Yaniv's case she's a predator - yes, transgender people can be predators. THAT is why I'm opposed to her being able to access girl's locker rooms.

#220 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

I am also opposed to predators. What does her being transgender have to do with it?

And you still haven't answered my questions about your crying girl hypothetical.

#221 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-09-19 11:04 AM

Depends on why she feels she is traumatized by it. Is it just because someone with a penis saw her naked? Was she doing anything to make her feel uncomfortable (leering, making comments, etc)? Does the "large" have something to do with it (no pun intended)? Did she feel intimidated?

It could be for any of those reasons. This advocacy isn't just for restrooms and locker rooms, BTW. It's also for places like rape shelters, women's prisons, women's sports (that one is becoming extremely controversial as recently "converted" boys are setting all sorts of records in women's sports), etc.

#222 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-19 11:11 AM

I oppose it because most girls oppose it. Further, the way it gets advocated is that as long as the male claims to be transgender, even if he's not, he should be allowed free access.

#220 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Do you have a link to a poll that says that "most girls oppose it"?

If he is a predator, then we should have laws to prevent that behavior. If he is not a predator, what is the problem?

I have gone into a women's restroom before. Both to change a baby (the male restroom did not have a changing table) and one time because I was accompanying my young daughter (and the men's restroom was disgusting). And there was one time I thought it mistook it for the men's restroom. Should I be arrested? Did I break the law?

Life is complicated. Why do you think this law will result in male predators "free access" to women's restrooms? Bathrooms aren't currently locked down or guarded.

www.npr.org

UCLA School of Law's Williams Institute, a research group that focuses on sexual orientation and gender identity law and policy, is working on a study to learn whether extending public accommodations rights to transgender people leads to more crimes by predators.

Early indications are that it does not.

A bunch of places have given rights to transgender people to use the bathroom of their choice. Can you find ANY evidence that this leads to more access for sexual predators? Or do you just think that assertion has "truthiness"?

Keep in mind, that there are consequences to forcing transgender people to use the biological gendered restroom...

One thing Herman can say for certain: Based on her survey of 93 transgender and gender nonconforming people in Washington, D.C., in 2008 and 2009, they themselves are at risk in restrooms.

"About 70 percent of the sample reported experiencing being denied access to restrooms, being harassed while using restrooms and even experiencing some forms of physical assault," says Herman.

#223 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-09-19 11:32 AM

It's awful nice of gtbritishskull to answer for women about why locker/restrooms are segregated. Stating that it's just prudishness.

On who's part? If it's on the womens part, are you saying they are not justified to feel this way?

Are you saying it's men who want the segregation? Let's take a look at mens locker rooms vs womens at gyms. Now lets look at the shower set ups. Invariably the women's areas more often than not have private areas for changing and showering.... it would seem women aren't body comfortable around their own sex, so I doubt they're the ones clamoring for mixed sex facilities.

#224 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2019-09-19 11:36 AM

It could be for any of those reasons.

#222 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Huh? This is your hypothetical, and you don't even know the reason? I am starting to question whether there is any reason to believe this hypothetical would ever happen.

But anyways, all of those reasons EXCEPT FOR the "someone with a penis saw her naked" is just someone being creepy or a sexual predator. That can already happen between people of the same sex, and there are mechanisms in place to deal with it. If the school was not reactive to it I would go talk to the school about it (just as I would if a cis-gendered girl engaged in those behaviors).

As far as "someone with a penis saw her naked", if it were MY daughter, I would remind her that I have seen her naked before. And that a male doctor has possibly seen her naked recently, or could in the future. And that as long as that is all there is to it then it is really no different than the other girls in the locker room seeing her naked. If she is uncomfortable, she should do what other people do who are uncomfortable with other people of either gender seeing them naked (find a private stall, use a towel or the locker door as a shield).

#225 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-09-19 11:45 AM

It's awful nice of gtbritishskull to answer for women about why locker/restrooms are segregated. Stating that it's just prudishness.

#224 | POSTED BY KWRX25

How am I answering for women? Are you claiming that it is only women who want locker rooms and restrooms segregated? I am answering why, as a society (men and women), we segregate locker/restrooms.

And he asked me a direct question. Are you saying I should not have answered his question? Are you saying (as I was concerned about) that his question was rhetorical and that it was really just a veiled Appeal to Tradition logical fallacy?

#226 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-09-19 11:50 AM

"I have seen no evidence that this will harm the kid. Why all the hubbub and angst?"

And that's why so many people just can't understand Liberals. You can't see what's right in front of your face. The problem isn't that people want to do what they want to do. The problem is they want everyone else to accept it and abandon their own opinions and reasons just to cater to them. For example, if someone says they identify as "they", then fantastic. They can do that all day long. But that doesn't mean I should have to identify them as "they". But society doesn't allow that because as soon as you do it, someone makes it go viral and the next thing you know you lose your job and family because of societal outrage. No one can deny this any longer, we live in a society where society itself can destroy someone based off of whatever they want to. And that's sad and pathetic in almost every case (sure there are some cases that it isn't such a bad thing but it still causes a gray area).

If someone tells me they want to be known as "they", I don't do it. It's not out of disrespect, it's out of full respect for both of our freedoms that I can call you whatever I want and you can call yourself whatever you want. I am free to call you a maggot if I want and should not have to fear any societal outrage that can destroy my way of life. If you don't like it, then we shouldn't be friends...plain and simple. People are friends with those they respect and who hold similar interests. Just because we don't doesn't mean I am a bad person, and it doesn't mean you are a bad person. Our country was founded on this very principle but it is getting destroyed by political correctness and societal rage.

That's the whole crux of the issue. If we didn't see cases every day of people getting their lives destroyed because of their opinions and non-violent habits, this type of article wouldn't cause any negative feelings to the masses (obviously hate groups are always going to be dumbasses but they aren't even close to being part of the "masses"). I am all for the legal rights of anyone to identify as anything they want. I am not for being afraid to exercise my legal rights of identifying people however I want. If you can't understand why people would be upset about having their rights infringed, you are just as bad as any of the hate groups.

#227 | Posted by humtake at 2019-09-19 12:07 PM

If someone tells me they want to be known as "they", I don't do it. It's not out of disrespect, it's out of full respect for both of our freedoms that I can call you whatever I want and you can call yourself whatever you want."

^
This is painfully unaware.

Fifty years ago you'd have told blacks I'm just gonna keep calling all yall n------, not out of disrespect, but in keeping with my heritage, and because it's my freedom to do so.

#228 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-19 12:48 PM

"In Yaniv's case she's a predator - yes, transgender people can be predators. THAT is why I'm opposed to her being able to access girl's locker rooms.
#220 | POSTED BY JEFFJ"

And how about all the not-Yaniv, not-a-predator cases? Transgender access okay?

#229 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-19 12:51 PM

"Fifty years ago you'd have told blacks I'm just gonna keep calling all yall n------, not out of disrespect, but in keeping with my heritage, and because it's my freedom to do so.

#228 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2019-09-19 12:48 PM "

After gettting slapped down and/or ostracized for years that changes. History proves that. The use of the N word is not near as prevalent as it was 50 years ago.

I guess if enough people continue to use proper English and get slapped down and/or ostracized, the language will change.

We'll see in 50 years, I guess.

#230 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-19 12:53 PM

Letter from Birmingham Jail (excerpt)

By Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., 16 April 1963

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

#231 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2019-09-19 01:19 PM

Merriam Webster now recognizes non-binary pronouns mashable.com

The dictionary, which is updated twice a year, recently chose to recognize "they/them" as gender-identifying pronouns. This follows singer Sam Smith recently requesting their fans and peers alike use said pronouns with them.

#232 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-19 04:46 PM

"Merriam Webster now recognizes non-binary pronouns.

#232 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

So? They also recognize thee and thou. That doesnt mean they are in common usage or even known to some people.

I'll continue using the commonly accepted form of the language, not the arcane and seldom used version that SJWs are trying to force down our throats. They, them, and their will always be third persoon plurals to me

So sue me.

#233 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-19 04:53 PM

"So? They also recognize thee and thou. That doesnt mean they are in common usage or even known to some people."

Did you also pretend you were confused about pronouns when you read Shakespeare in high school, Goatman?
Consistency and all that...

#234 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-19 04:54 PM

"They, them, and their will always be third persoon plurals to me"

Nah.

If the piano tuner is scheduled to arrive, but you don't when, and you also don't know if the piano tuner is a man or a woman, you'd be perfectly fine asking "Oh, the piano tuner is coming? When do they get here?"

#235 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-19 04:57 PM

"Did you also pretend you were confused about pronouns when you read Shakespeare in high school, Goatman?
Consistency and all that...

#234 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

No, but I'm confused when I read a sentence like th eone in the featured article:

"However, they are keen to let their child, Anoush, choose their own gender identity when they are old enough, because they wish for them to "grow into their own person".

If commonly accepted English was used it would read:

"However, they are keen to let their child, Anoush, choose his own gender identity when he is old enough, because they wish for him to "grow into his own person".

Which is not confusing to the average reader.

#236 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-19 04:59 PM

"No, but I'm confused when I read a sentence like th eone in the featured article"

No, you're not confused, since you just translated the sentence perfectly fine into Goatman's English.
You couldn't do that if you didn't know what it meant.
But you do.

You're not confused.

#237 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-19 05:02 PM

""They, them, and their will always be third persoon plurals to me"

Nah.
#235 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

Um, yeah. Regardless what you think, I know myself better than you do.

I see snoofygames (tm) is moving to level 2.

#238 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-19 05:02 PM

Is someone whose gender I don't know participating in this thread?
When did they get here?

#239 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-19 05:04 PM

"No, you're not confused, since you just translated the sentence perfectly fine into Goatman's English.

#237 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

???

When I see French in its written form, I am confused. It takes me a while, but I can muddle my way through it. It'll take me a few minutes to translate a French paragraph whereas its English equivalent would take me 4 or five seconds to read and comprehend.

Likewise, it took me longer to comprehend the first sentence than it took me to comprehend the second because the first was more confusing.

It was much the same with dethspud's cutesy speak. I could figure it out, but it was very confusing.

But you know this, soofygames (tm)

#240 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-19 05:06 PM

"Is someone whose gender I don't know participating in this thread?

#239 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

I have no idea. Unlike you, I don't pretend to know others' minds.

#241 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-19 05:08 PM

"Unlike you, I don't pretend to know others' minds."

How is not knowing someone's gender pretending to know someone else's mind, Goatman?

#242 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-19 05:09 PM

Even the author of this piece, a journalist who presumably went to more English classes than required by other college curriculums, is confused. In her sentence:

"However, they are keen to let their child, Anoush, choose their own gender identity when they are old enough, because they wish for them to "grow into their own person".

She says, "...when they are old enough..."

"is" should be used as third person singular, not "are".

So if someone who took more English classes than most other English speakers did is confused, it stands to reason most other people will be as well.

#243 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-19 05:17 PM

Just like when people say "If I was President..." and people understand them to mean, properly, "If I were President..."

There's no confusion.

#244 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-19 05:18 PM

"How is not knowing someone's gender pretending to know someone else's mind, Goatman?

#242 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

It's not. I was referring to your post 235 from only a few minutes ago where you pretended to know how I would use words.

But you knew that. It was only a few minutes ago you said it and I admonishted you for it.

This episode of snoofygames (tm) is over.

Bye, now!

#245 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-19 05:19 PM

Remember the couple that names their kid Adolph Hitler? This is like that.

Maybe they're in a contest with those people to see who can produce the most ------ up kid.

#246 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-09-19 05:28 PM

At least islam treats women and LGBTs right, unlike you dirty white westerners.

#247 | Posted by mutant at 2019-09-19 05:53 PM

"Remember the couple that names their kid Adolph Hitler? This is like that."

And I'm accused of making bad analogies...

#248 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-20 12:03 AM

Drudge Retort Headlines

Migrant Kids may be Adopted (82 comments)

Trump Knew He Was Violating the Phony Emoluments Clause (53 comments)

Dems See Impeachment Taking Longer Than Expected (50 comments)

Mentions of Government as Top U.S. Problem Near Record High (49 comments)

U.S. Ambassador Ties Ukraine Aid Holdup Directly to Trump (45 comments)

CNN's Jeffrey Toobin Regrets Covering Clinton Email Story (32 comments)

Turkey, Russia make Syria Deal (31 comments)

Facebook Will Allow Politicians to Lie on Facebook (27 comments)

Amazon Becoming Largest Military Contractor in U.S (25 comments)