Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Thursday, August 08, 2019

The inclusion of elite transwomen athletes in sport is controversial. The recent International Olympic Committee (IOC) (2015) guidelines allow transwomen to compete in the women's division if (amongst other things) their testosterone is held below 10 nmol/L. This is significantly higher than that of cis-women. Science demonstrates that high testosterone and other male physiology provides a performance advantage in sport suggesting that transwomen retain some of that advantage. To determine whether the advantage is unfair necessitates an ethical analysis of the principles of inclusion and fairness. Particularly important is whether the advantage held by transwomen is a tolerable or intolerable unfairness. We conclude that the advantage to transwomen afforded by the IOC guidelines is an intolerable unfairness...

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Since I know that the usual suspects will immediately slaughter the source, here is a link to the actual study (which is what I actually quoted in the header):

jme.bmj.com

FTA -

Just last week, Laurel Hubbard, a New Zealand powerlifter who used to compete poorly in the men's division, took first place at the Pacific Games, beating the female Commonwealth Games champion in both categories.

Two other recent cases have made national headlines. In the first, two biological males finished first and second in the 55-meter dash at the Connecticut high school girls' indoor track championships. In the second, a biological man, Craig (Cece) Telfer, completely dominated the NCAA Division II Women's Track National Championship in the 400-meter hurdles.

Telfer beat the second-place runner by 2 seconds. The second-place runner bested third place by 0.28 seconds. The year before, Craig had been competing for Franklin Pierce University's male track team. His ranking that year was 200th out of 390 among the men's 400-meter hurdles.


Testosterone suppressants and female hormones simply don't erase all of the post-pubescent physical gains that men have over women. It sucks because there simply aren't enough transwomen athletes to create another gender category in competitive sports. Clearly though, allowing transwomen to compete in women's sports is not the answer and it's downright discriminatory against cis women.

#1 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 11:22 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The next wave of discrimination will be against women who embrace femininity. It's already begun with men who embrace their masculinity, being characterized as 'toxic'. Ultimately, it will have to be cis-women who make the decision on who they allow in their sports, clubs, circles, or whatever, not men or transwomen. It would be a shame to see women pushed out of their own organizations.

#2 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-08-08 12:23 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Definitely not in the looks department.

#3 | Posted by homerj at 2019-08-08 01:49 PM | Reply

This is such an awkward axe for you to so studiously grind, JeffJ.

Most of all: Why are you telling us? This isn't a sports forum.

#4 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-08 01:52 PM | Reply

#4 This has become a political issue. Look at the bill that just passed the House. If it were to be signed into law it would codify this which will ultimately bring women's sports to an end.

#5 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 01:59 PM | Reply

You're losing every which way but loose so you attack trans girls/women in particular me. Grow up Jeff. Quit being a whiney intellectually dishonest right winger.

#6 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-08-08 02:24 PM | Reply

This is an attack?

You've become delusional and paranoid, Laura.

#7 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 02:26 PM | Reply

#6 What is he being intellectually dishonest about, Laura?

#8 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2019-08-08 02:27 PM | Reply

"#4 This has become a political issue. Look at the bill that just passed the House."

This became a political issue when the North Carolina Senate decided to legislate bathrooms.
You rushed to join their bandwagon.
You're an agent of trans hate now.

#9 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-08 02:29 PM | Reply

#6 What is he being intellectually dishonest about, Laura?

#8 | POSTED BY MUSTANG GT

She won't actually answer that question. She'll just call me a transphobic bigot because, well, things. She can't actually point out what is actually bigoted about this subject, but gosh darn she knows it's there. Deep down she just knows.

#10 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 02:29 PM | Reply

#9 I'm not taking your troll bait.

#11 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 02:30 PM | Reply

"She can't actually point out what is actually bigoted about this subject"

I can.
I did.
You won't touch it with a ten foot pole.

#12 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-08 02:30 PM | Reply

It only took two posts from me for you to tuck your tail and run from your own thread, JeffJ.
Oh well.
Snowflakes gonna snowflake.

#13 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-08 02:32 PM | Reply

#6 What is he being intellectually dishonest about, Laura?

POSTED BY MUSTANG AT 2019-08-08 02:27 PM | REPLY

A lot lately including the title of this thread.

#14 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-08-08 02:34 PM | Reply

No, you didn't.

I opposed the North Carolina legislation.

I also opposed Obama's "Dear colleague" letter on similar grounds, even though it took the opposite stance regarding the issue.

That would be a swing and a miss for you.

#15 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 02:34 PM | Reply

How is the title of this thread wrong, Laura?

#16 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 02:34 PM | Reply

Gender nonconforming people have zero advantages in life and are lucky if they aren't beaten and ridiculed their entire lives.

They have extremely high rates of depression and suicide.

Jeff. You spend an exorbitant amount of time trying to make the lives of these people as difficult as possible.

I'd suggest finding a hobby and allowing other people to live their lives.

#17 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-08-08 02:34 PM | Reply

Do you actually need a study to know that men who think they're women have a physical advantage?

#18 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-08-08 02:36 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

How is the title of this thread wrong, Laura?

It's absolutely trolling, Jeff.

Stop acting like you weren't aware.

#19 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-08-08 02:36 PM | Reply

Do you actually need a study to know that men who think they're women have a physical advantage?

No. You just need to ignore all non gender conforming people in the world and focus on one from New Zealand.

#20 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-08-08 02:37 PM | Reply

"I opposed the North Carolina legislation."

You routinely asked why should a man who claims he's a woman be allowed in the women's locker room, and that this would give rise to sexual assault.
Now you are trying to sell that fatuous line of reasoning as opposition?
???

#21 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-08 02:38 PM | Reply

Mustang,

Laura is clinging to an extremely unscientific "study" that claims that testosterone treatment alone erases all of the physical advantages men have over women in sports.

That so-called "study" followed a whopping 8 volunteer transwomen athletes without any kind of scientific controls or anything. It's a completely unscientific approach with out any real measurements. It had virtually zero biological science - it was just how these 8 athletes personally performed before and after transition. In at least one case multiple years passed between the athlete competing as a man and a transwomen, as if years of no physical training had no role in diminished performance.

In short, the "study" said what Laura wants to hear and that's good enough for her.

#22 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 02:39 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

You routinely asked why should a man who claims he's a woman be allowed in the women's locker room, and that this would give rise to sexual assault.

Correct.

Now you are trying to sell that fatuous line of reasoning as opposition?

Yes. I said it should be handled locally, on a case-by-case basis not by a government edict from above.

#23 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 02:42 PM | Reply

You just need to ignore all non gender conforming people in the world and focus on one from New Zealand.

#20 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

FTA:

Two other recent cases have made national headlines. In the first, two biological males finished first and second in the 55-meter dash at the Connecticut high school girls' indoor track championships. In the second, a biological man, Craig (Cece) Telfer, completely dominated the NCAA Division II Women's Track National Championship in the 400-meter hurdles.
Telfer beat the second-place runner by 2 seconds. The second-place runner bested third place by 0.28 seconds. The year before, Craig had been competing for Franklin Pierce University's male track team. His ranking that year was 200th out of 390 among the men's 400-meter hurdles.

#24 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 02:43 PM | Reply

I guess I can put Clown, Snoofy and Laura in the camp of people who want to piss all over women's sports.

#25 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 02:45 PM | Reply

"I said it should be handled locally, on a case-by-case basis "

Oh, I think I remember this nonsense.
I remember this question in specific going unanswered:

What does that even mean?
Ever time Laura wants to use the bathroom, is that a new case?
Every tame Laura wants to use a different bathroom, is that a new case?

You couldn't answer, because your "answer" is nothing more than a libertarian knee-jerk to things you can't understand but don't like; a rudimentary reflex, devoid of meaning or understanding.

#26 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-08 02:48 PM | Reply

I guess I can put Clown ... in the camp of people who want to piss all over women's sports.
#25 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

It's called a-------------, and some women like it.

Just ask R Kelly.

#27 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-08-08 03:09 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

Two other recent cases have made national headlines.

There are people who are paid to create and write the rules and laws of sports competitions.

If they're fine with non gender conforming people competing with the gender of their choice, then so be it.

#28 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-08-08 03:16 PM | Reply

There are people who are paid to create and write the rules and laws of sports competitions.
If they're fine with non gender conforming people competing with the gender of their choice, then so be it.
#28 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

So, it's OK to discriminate against cis-gender women?

#29 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 03:20 PM | Reply

"I guess I can put Clown, Snoofy and Laura in the camp of people who want to piss all over women's sports."

Women's sports can fend for itself.
It doesn't need JeffJ, Helicopter Mom to protect it.

#30 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-08 03:20 PM | Reply

Why is it so hard to just discuss the possibility that just maybe a man who transitions to being a woman might retain some of the physical advantage they had before they transitioned Laura?

Why is your go to to label anyone who would try to examine the issue transphobic?

#31 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2019-08-08 03:22 PM | Reply

Women's sports can fend for itself...

#30 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

It needs all of the help it can get.

Here's the bottom-line: If testosterone suppressants alone were able to truly level the playing field, this wouldn't be much of an issue.

If it was fair I would be all for it.

Clearly, testosterone suppressants don't erase all of the post-pubescent physical advantages men have over women.

#32 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 03:24 PM | Reply

"Why is your go to to label anyone who would try to examine the issue transphobic?"

JeffJ isn't here to examine the issue.
He's here to rectify it.

#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-08 03:25 PM | Reply

Why is it so hard to just discuss the possibility that just maybe a man who transitions to being a woman might retain some of the physical advantage they had before they transitioned Laura?
Why is your go to to label anyone who would try to examine the issue transphobic?

#31 | POSTED BY KWRX25

Those are questions she will never answer.

#34 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 03:25 PM | Reply

"Clearly, testosterone suppressants don't erase all of the post-pubescent physical advantages men have over women."

Clearly.

And I'm sure you're doing your part by advancing this knowledge to all zero of the women's sports adjudicating bodies of which you are a member.

Thank you for your service.

#35 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-08 03:26 PM | Reply

Why is it so hard to just discuss the possibility that just maybe a man who transitions to being a woman might retain some of the physical advantage they had before they transitioned Laura?
Why is your go to to label anyone who would try to examine the issue transphobic?

POSTED BY KWRX25 AT 2019-08-08 03:22 PM | REPLY

Renee Richards says you're full of it.

#36 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-08-08 03:30 PM | Reply

#31 I called it. See #36.

#37 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 03:32 PM | Reply

So never post on a topic here again then Snoofy unless you are actively engaged in promoting the furthering of whatever that knowledge is to whatever the foremost body on it is.

Do you forget this is a site designed to debate topics?

#38 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2019-08-08 03:32 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#36 What does her story have to do with the questions posed to you in #31?

#39 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 03:36 PM | Reply

"Do you forget this is a site designed to debate topics?"

JeffJ can't debate this topic, he can only call the people who are trying to debate him trolls.

#40 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-08 03:40 PM | Reply

I'm calling you a troll because that is what you are doing.

#41 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 03:42 PM | Reply

KWRX exposed the inanity of your post and instead of just fessing up, "Yeah, that one was kind of dumb." you pivot away.

#42 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 03:43 PM | Reply

Renee Richards says that 24 years before she competed as a woman, she competed as a man, and was a non mention.

But, now, much much older, she was able to compete against women in their prime, and win through to the semifinals... and make it to the finals in the Doubles competition.

Seems Laura that Renee Richards may say I'm full of it, but her performance at the US Opens in her 40's would seem to indicate that you are full of it.

#43 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2019-08-08 03:43 PM | Reply

"I'm calling you a troll because that is what you are doing"

Sure, knock yourself out.
I'm calling you a coward because that is what you are by not answering #26.

#44 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-08 03:45 PM | Reply

#26 is about bathrooms and locker rooms.

This thread is about sports.

I'm not going to relitigate the bathroom/locker room debate, That horse was beaten to death years ago.

I ignored #26 because it's not on-topic.

#45 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 03:49 PM | Reply

#43 | POSTED BY KWRX25

It's ironic that Laura that she was shooting down the point of your first question but she unintentionally proved it.

#46 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 03:51 PM | Reply

It's ironic that Laura thought...

#47 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 03:52 PM | Reply

www.upworthy.com

In 1976, a trans tennis player by the name of Reneé Richards wanted to compete in the women's division at the U.S. Open. At the time, a number of people argued that she had an unfair advantage and would dominate the women's circuit.

A quick look at the stats shows that's not the case. Prior to her transition, Richards competed in the men's division, where she was fairly mediocre (two wins, five losses). Post-transition, competing against women, she was ... also fairly mediocre (66 wins, 110 losses).

#48 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-08-08 03:56 PM | Reply

"I ignored #26 because it's not on-topic."

It's pointedly on topic.
Here, I'll make it even clearer:
Should trans women in sports be treated locally, on a case-by-case basis, like trans women in bathrooms?
If so... what does that actually mean?

#49 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-08 03:58 PM | Reply

testosterone suppressants don't erase all of the post-pubescent physical advantages men have over women.

So. Would you then say you're in favor of giving pre pubescent boys who identify as girls testosterone blockers?

That way they can compete in sports when they're older and you don't have to be worried about their unfair advantages.

#50 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-08-08 04:02 PM | Reply

You love to ignore the fact that 24 years had passed, and she had gone from middling to competitive in the Semi-Finals, and to the Doubles Finals.

She was middle aged and gone through the stresses of a transition, and was competitive against the best in the World in the finals.

Your 66-110 stat is intriguing, I don't know the timeframe that played out over, but it would seem to be a decent stretch of time, and she would have only been aging more and more.

comparing like to like after transitioning but still in her younger years I'll quote a highly complimentary article from tennis.com:

"Just one year before, Dr. Richard Raskind, an accomplished athlete who had captained the men's team at Yale two decades earlier, had undergone sexual-reassignment surgery. Soon after, as Dr. Renée Richards, she moved from New York to Newport Beach, CA, to start a new life. But there was one thing she couldn't leave behind: her conspicuous skill at tennis.

After impressing the members at her new club, Richards agreed to enter a tournament in nearby La Jolla. A woman in the audience made the connection between the tall lefty who was mowing down the competition, and a story she heard about a tennis-playing doctor who moved west after having a sex change."

Mowing down the competition... seems that a midling male player had no problem "mowing down the competition" when still closer to her prime.

Ultimately, I don't think Renee in anyway makes your point, 24 years older and highly competitive I still feel makes the contrary point.

#51 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2019-08-08 04:09 PM | Reply

She never competed past 1977 slick. Want to try again??

#52 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-08-08 04:13 PM | Reply

Your 66-110 stat is intriguing, I don't know the timeframe that played out over, but it would seem to be a decent stretch of time, and she would have only been aging more and more.

She was 47 when she retired.

#53 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 04:15 PM | Reply

#52 You are proving the point, Laura.

It's amazing that you don't realize it.

#54 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 04:16 PM | Reply

I said I didn't know the timeframe, She was still much older then at that point. 2 and 5 is a very short career, so in retrospect he wasn't even a middling player as male, he was a washout. 66-110 then at that age shows just how much more competitive she was when playing women. A crappy male player, when well past prime was able to compete in the womens division.

Still proving my point slick.

#55 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2019-08-08 04:21 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I said I didn't know the timeframe, She was still much older then at that point. 2 and 5 is a very short career, so in retrospect he wasn't even a middling player as male, he was a washout. 66-110 then at that age shows just how much more competitive she was when playing women. A crappy male player, when well past prime was able to compete in the womens division.

#55 | POSTED BY KWRX25

Also keep in mind that she was actually a doctor. So after going a couple of decades of not playing competitive tennis she transitions and is competitive in her 40's against women half their age who had been doing nothing but competitive tennis for years - training 50 hours per week year-round.

#56 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 04:56 PM | Reply

#56 Never mind the loss in muscle memory over that period of time. You don't get all of that back.

#57 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 05:05 PM | Reply

well are there any "transmen" fighting MMA against actual men?

#58 | Posted by ABlock at 2019-08-08 05:06 PM | Reply

bruce jenner nee caitlan was on a talk show and this smaller than brucey, man was objecting to trans whatever and caitlan told him if he said anymore he would put him in the hospital.
now i suppose you want to say bruce jenner is a woman but then i'd have to say WTF. lol

#59 | Posted by ABlock at 2019-08-08 05:13 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It's called a-------------, and some women like it.

You can't refer to showers as golden?

Why is comedy under attack!?

I wish I could quote Dave Chappell. But the entire quote would get deleted for profanity.

#60 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-08-08 05:30 PM | Reply

I find the pseudo prefix "cis" to be triggering. Please use no prefix or normal to denote the normals. Also gender is cultural a construct is practically meaningless, other than genetic aberrations, mammals are either male or female.

#61 | Posted by visitor_ at 2019-08-08 05:32 PM | Reply

"mammals are either male or female."

Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls
It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world

#62 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-08 05:33 PM | Reply

mammals are either male or female

What of the hermaphrodites?

That term exists because mammals are not always either male or female.

#63 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-08-08 05:40 PM | Reply

Not only that, plenty of animals can naturally change their sex from male to female.

#64 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-08 05:42 PM | Reply

Not only that, plenty of animals can naturally change their sex from male to female.

#64 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

I am not aware of any mammals that are able to do that. I know that some species of frogs can do it.

#65 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 06:05 PM | Reply

well are there any "transmen" fighting MMA against actual men?

No but Patricio Manuel is a transman boxer and he won his first (and only) fight as a man against a man.

The recent International Olympic Committee (IOC) (2015) guidelines allow transwomen to compete in the women's division if (amongst other things) their testosterone is held below 10 nmol/L. This is significantly higher than that of cis-women. Science demonstrates that high testosterone and other male physiology provides a performance advantage in sport suggesting that transwomen retain some of that advantage.

I imagine that if it becomes a serious issue the IOC will revise the rules. I honestly don't know.

#66 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2019-08-08 06:15 PM | Reply

I know that some species of frogs can do it.
#65 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Thank god for Jurassic Park for teaching us that valuable lesson.

"Life finds a way."

#67 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-08-08 06:17 PM | Reply

BTW YOUR LINKED ARTICLE'S ARTICLE CAN'T BE READ SLICK. YOU HAVE TO PAY TO READ IT. Caps intended.

#68 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-08-08 09:08 PM | Reply

#68 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR

Hmmm...the link works for me just fine with no pay wall.

Normally you just trash The Federalist as a source so I am questioning whether you actually clicked the link.

#69 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 09:25 PM | Reply

Yeah, the link to the study itself requires payment and that sucks.

I'll see if I can figure out a way to read it without paying.

#70 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-08 09:27 PM | Reply

IOC guidelines lol. They have gender divisions in sports where gender is irrelevant.

#71 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2019-08-09 09:49 AM | Reply

What of the hermaphrodites?
That term exists because mammals are not always either male or female.

Ah, the old hermaphrodite argument. Liberals love to trot it out when talking about born male and born women arguments.

They are .001% of all born humans, but they are supposed to represent all humans?

They are an mixup of nature, just like a man who thinks he's a woman .

#72 | Posted by boaz at 2019-08-09 12:12 PM | Reply

physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

This is the only thing that bothers me about trans women playing against those AFAB. Studies show that steroid use unfairly advantages male athletes against other male athletes years and even decades down the road. This being primarily because even when you discontinue the hormones, muscle cells are permanently altered with more nuclei, and greater respiratory capacity (on the cellular level.) They retain a capacity to work more, and build more.

Testosterone is the original steroid.

I don't know what this means in terms of the best moral decision. It's not the trans women's fault, but if they've gone through male puberty they have the same advantage a doping athlete has over a clean one, which is fundamentally unfair. Perhaps the only real solution is greater research into what makes people trans and early detection to avoid unwelcome puberty, but that still solves nothing for those who've currently transitioned.

#73 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2019-08-09 04:28 PM | Reply

greater research into what makes people trans and early detection to avoid unwelcome puberty

Although the precise number isn't known, a number of studies have found that a majority of children with gender dysphoria "grow out of it" by the time the hit late adolescence.

www.psypost.org

#74 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-09 04:38 PM | Reply

"They are an mixup of nature, just like a man who thinks he's a woman."

Or a man who is attracted to men.
When nature mixes things up, you are you to say it's wrong?

#75 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-09 04:45 PM | Reply

you all do realize that more research into genes + CRISPR and the only way you'll get gay is if that's what you want. and if it's definable and detectable then it will be preventable

#76 | Posted by ABlock at 2019-08-10 11:02 AM | Reply

Snoofy,

"Or a man who is attracted to men.
When nature mixes things up, you[sic] are you to say it's wrong?"

hmmm....

Are you saying being gay is not natural? Are you saying it is "nature" that is "mixed up"?

Personally, I think your mistake is viewing transgender and general gay issues and as one and the same while they are actually distinctly different.

Politically they are treated as the same but their outlooks, lifestyles and backgrounds are very different.

And I suspect there may be more to the "mixed up" aspect to transgendered people than with the general gay population.

That doesn't make them less important but they do deal with more uncertainty who they are than cisgendered people who are into the same sex.

This thread is pointing out how different transgender and general gay issues actually are.

There are lots of gay people in sports competitions and no one would question if it's fair.

#77 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2019-08-11 09:33 AM | Reply

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