Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Sunday, August 18, 2019

The 1619 Project is a major initiative from The New York Times observing the 400th anniversary of the beginning of American slavery. It aims to reframe the country's history, understanding 1619 as our true founding, and placing the consequences of slavery and the contributions of black Americans at the very center of the story we tell ourselves about who we are.

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In 1805 there were just over one million slaves worth about $300 million; fifty-five years later there were four million slaves worth close to $3 billion. In the 11 states that eventually formed the Confederacy, four out of ten people were slaves in 1860, and these people accounted for more than half the agricultural labor in those states. In the cotton regions the importance of slave labor was even greater. The value of capital invested in slaves roughly equaled the total value of all farmland and farm buildings in the South. Though the value of slaves fluctuated from year to year, there was no prolonged period during which the value of the slaves owned in the United States did not increase markedly.

Slave labor was the foundation of a prosperous economic system in the South. By itself, the South's economic investment in slavery could easily explain the willingness of Southerners to risk war when faced with what they viewed as a serious threat to their "peculiar institution" after the electoral victories of the Republican Party and President Abraham Lincoln the fall of 1860.

eh.net

The truth of America's history has always been right there for everyone to discover but very few want to look at the truth, much less admit how that truth continues to affect lives today. Already, many that I will call Deniers are lining up to dismiss the truths of history and this nation that unquestionably prove that the slaves themselves WERE the largest source of wealth in the Confederate South, more so than even the value of the land.

America's history is as complicated as it is controversial, but it is both knowable and quantifiable. This immense research document illuminates many of the dark truths kept from our history books and the verbal retellings of this nation's past. No more. Only those who intend to choose to remain ignorant for here is the reality for all to see, learn from, and understand.

#1 | Posted by tonyroma at 2019-08-18 07:14 PM | Reply

"much less admit how that truth continues to affect lives today"

Things that happened a mere 50 years ago -- within the lifetimes of many here -- are considered Ancient History, with no impact on current reality, by many of those same people who literally lived through it.

#2 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-18 07:19 PM | Reply

Part of the NY Times documented pivot from Russiagate to racism to take down Trump.

#3 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-08-18 07:21 PM | Reply

"This immense research document illuminates many of the dark truths kept from our history books and the verbal retellings of this nation's past. No more. Only those who intend to choose to remain ignorant for here is the reality for all to see, learn from, and understand."

Translation: We @NYT alone hold the facts and truths. Questions and/or disputes of facts provided will shouted down.

#4 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-08-18 07:26 PM | Reply

"Hannah-Jones has some truly bizarre notions of American history:

The essays go on to cover the economy ("If you want to understand the brutality of American capitalism, you have to start on the plantation."), the food we eat ("The sugar that saturates the American diet has a barbaric history as the 'white gold' that fueled slavery."), the nation's physical health ("Why doesn't the United States have universal healthcare? The answer begins with policies enacted after the Civil War."), politics ("America holds onto an undemocratic assumption from its founding: that some people deserve more power than others."), daily life ("What does a traffic jam in Atlanta have to do with segregation? Quite a lot."), and much more.

The Times promises more 1619 Project stories in the future, not just in the paper's news sections, but in the business, sports, travel, and other sections. The Times' popular podcast, The Daily, will also devote time to it.
pjmedia.com

#5 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-08-18 07:28 PM | Reply

I just saw Snoofy set up a lawn chair and umbrella on this thread.

...and he's got a cooler.

#6 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-08-18 07:29 PM | Reply

"This may be the most ambitious left-wing propaganda project in history.

But a project with the aim of reframing U.S. history has to be more than a bunch of articles and podcasts. A major goal of the 1619 Project is to take the reframing message to schools. The Times has joined an organization called the Pulitzer Center (which, it should be noted, is not the organization that hands out the Pulitzer Prize) to create a 1619 Project curriculum. "Here you will find reading guides, activities, and other resources to bring The 1619 Project into your classroom," the center says in a message to teachers.

A project that seeks to condemn capitalism and view the remarkable achievements of an entire nation through the prism of slavery and race is ignorant. These views represent a complete (deliberate?) misunderstanding of 400 years of American history."

#7 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-08-18 07:30 PM | Reply

Part of the NY Times documented pivot from Russiagate to racism to take down Trump.

Trump has nothing to do with the story starting 400 years ago. He's only a bit player whose recognition is insignificant in the telling of these stories.

America holds onto an undemocratic assumption from its founding: that some people deserve more power than others.

Slavery gave America a fear of black people and a taste for violent punishment. Both still define our prison system.

A vast wealth gap, driven by segregation, redlining, evictions and exclusion, separates black and white America.

Why doesn't the United States have universal health care? The answer begins with policies enacted after the Civil War.

#8 | Posted by tonyroma at 2019-08-18 07:36 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

No country has done more both legally, and in practice to over come racial prejudice.

This is an ugly revisionist view by vile anti-Americans trying to pin the racist label on their opponents.

When your only filter is identity, everything is racist.

#9 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-08-18 08:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"The basic thrust of The 1619 project is that everything in American history is explained by slavery and race. The message is woven throughout the first publication of the project, an entire edition of the Times magazine. It begins with an overview of race in America " "Our democracy's founding ideals were false when they were written. Black Americans have fought to make the true." " written by Times writer Nikole Hannah-Jones ... .

Tells you everything you need to know. "Everything" is about race.

Orwell's 1984 was not intended to be a how-to-guide for the NY Times "Ministry of Truth."

#10 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-08-18 08:10 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"Part of the NY Times documented pivot from Russiagate to racism to take down Trump."

Does this mean racism is fake news, or what?

#11 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-18 08:14 PM | Reply

#9. Agreed, Mackris.

#12 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-18 08:17 PM | Reply

"No country has done more both legally, and in practice to over come racial prejudice."

On the other side of that coin, it says:
No country has done more to enshrine and institutionalize racial prejudice.

#13 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-18 08:18 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#8 lacking single payer is due to racism?

#14 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-18 08:19 PM | Reply

#13

The progress made over the past 5 decades says otherwise.

#15 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-18 08:20 PM | Reply

"No country has done more to enshrine and institutionalize racial prejudice.

#13 | POSTED BY SNOOFY"

Citation needed

worldpopulationreview.com

Why do you wish the unfounded things you do?

#16 | Posted by goatman at 2019-08-18 08:23 PM | Reply

"The progress made over the past 5 decades says otherwise."

Makes no sense.
Things have happened since 1964.
That doesn't erase from history things that happened since 1619.

We repealed Prohibition, but we can see some very real-world artifacts of that policy today, even though it was only in place for 12 years, and we've had nearly 100 to recover, and some things will probably never be the same.

The same is true of slavery and segregation, just to a much larger extent, since it was in place for 350 years, and we've only had 50 years to recover.

#17 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-18 08:31 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#16
"Coin" as in, to coin a phrase.

#18 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-18 08:40 PM | Reply

"The same is true of slavery and segregation, just to a much larger extent, since it was in place for 350 years, and we've only had 50 years to recover.

#17 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

I provided a link that says you are wrong. Please rebut it and provide citation as I have. No one really cares what your personal and highly biased opinion is.

#19 | Posted by goatman at 2019-08-18 08:46 PM | Reply

rofl!

Dulli and PJMedia.... a match made in Trump's nightgown.

#20 | Posted by Corky at 2019-08-19 12:11 AM | Reply

"PJMedia"

Jim Hoft...The Dumbest Man On The Internet:
www.mediamatters.org

Nulli: second...but closing fast!

#21 | Posted by Danforth at 2019-08-19 12:20 AM | Reply

I provided a link that says you are wrong. Please rebut it and provide citation as I have. No one really cares what your personal and highly biased opinion is.

#19 | POSTED BY GOATMAN

Here's a citation that shows you're as wrong as a $3 bill.

American Dialogue
www.youtube.com
[36:00 thru 42:45]

Historian Joseph J. Ellis uses Thomas Jefferson's own writings and shows why civil rights is actually a mid-20th Century effort in the context of 400 years of American racism.

18th Century abolitionists mostly thought that once the slaves were freed, they'd be moved to another country. Even Abraham Lincoln in the aftermath of Gettysburg said to black leaders (Frederick Douglas included) and told them "get ready to go" with the eventual Civil War victory.

This is why, as Ellis points out, Americans still struggle with civil rights. Why? Because there are large swaths of the population who will NEVER come to terms with the full implications of what civil rights means.

So, Goatman, you're wrong [as usual] and no one really cares what your personal and highly biased opinion is.

#22 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-08-19 07:35 AM | Reply

No country has done more both legally, and in practice to over come racial prejudice.

#9 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS

See post # 22, click on the link, and learn something for a change.

#23 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-08-19 07:38 AM | Reply

18th Century abolitionists = 19th Century abolitionists

#24 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-08-19 07:42 AM | Reply

It aims to reframe the country's history

Everyone read this sentence and didnt bat an eye.

#25 | Posted by boaz at 2019-08-19 07:50 AM | Reply

Because there are large swaths of the population who will NEVER come to terms with the full implications of what civil rights means.

But it's not what YOU mean, Pinch.

It's not one sided. There are huge swaths of blacks who will never be freed from the victimization mentality instilled by the Democrat Party. The dependence the Democrat Party has forced on the black race in this country should be treated as criminal.

#26 | Posted by boaz at 2019-08-19 07:54 AM | Reply

#26 | POSTED BY BOAZ

What this Wesley guy says, "America was an apartheid state until 50 years ago" is TRUE.

I have a citation in post # 22, using Founding Father Thomas Jefferson's own words, to back up what I'm saying.

If you don't know what Jefferson said, then that's on you -- you could click on the link and have it explained to you.

#27 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-08-19 08:09 AM | Reply

There are huge swaths of blacks who will never be freed from the victimization mentality instilled by the Democrat Party.

#26 | POSTED BYBOAZ

Bill Clinton exploded the prison population, which disproportionately affected blacks ... something that Republicans could only do in their wet dreams.

Just as historian Joseph J. Ellis explains, civil rights is only a mid 20th Century effort, just as the guy in the tweet at the top of this thread is saying.

And, oh by the way ...

who profits from prison-industrial-complex, a tofu eating vegan liberal or some old white conservative guy sitting on a corporate board trying to figure out how to maximize profits?

#28 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-08-19 09:55 AM | Reply

Lincoln? Idiot. He abolished free labor.

-Trump

#29 | Posted by lee_the_agent at 2019-08-19 11:00 AM | Reply | Funny: 3

The progress made over the past 5 decades says otherwise.

#15 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-18 08:20 PM | Reply

mappingpoliceviolence.org

Progress my ass!

#30 | Posted by fresno500 at 2019-08-19 11:01 AM | Reply

www.oregonlive.com

#31 | Posted by fresno500 at 2019-08-19 11:09 AM | Reply

^^^ progress

#32 | Posted by fresno500 at 2019-08-19 11:09 AM | Reply

It aims to reframe the country's history

Everyone read this sentence and didnt bat an eye.

Why should any intelligent person bat an eye over something so obvious?

Reframe - frame or express (words or a concept or plan) differently.
Reframing doesn't mean that anything is being added, subtracted or distorted. It's just that the complete totality of facts and information may show a wholly different picture than the one people have thought accurately portrayed the story before. In this case it means that historical facts which were ignored or downplayed will no longer be because their factual place in the full accounting of this nation's narrative is important to understanding both our past and our present, and most certainly will impact some of our decisions and directions about the future.

This is why it's so vital.

#33 | Posted by tonyroma at 2019-08-19 01:02 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

C'mon. Give police a break. A C average in high school and 6 weeks of training gets a badge.

#34 | Posted by lee_the_agent at 2019-08-19 01:02 PM | Reply

Part of the NY Times documented pivot from Russiagate to racism to take down Trump.

#3 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

More quality posting. /s

#35 | Posted by jpw at 2019-08-19 01:22 PM | Reply

More quality posting. /s

#35 | POSTED BY JPW

When I first read about this it was reported that the NYT executive editor, Baquet, said in a meeting that Project 1619 would dovetail into portraying Trump as a racist by the paper as often as possible in a bid to have him lose the election.

Of course, my quick Google search doesn't turn up where I read it, but I did read it. Nulli wasn't making that comment up out of whole cloth.

#36 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-19 01:46 PM | Reply

"More quality posting. /s

#35 | POSTED BY JPW

When I first read about this it was reported that the NYT executive editor, Baquet, said in a meeting that Project 1619 would dovetail into portraying Trump as a racist by the paper as often as possible in a bid to have him lose the election.

Of course, my quick Google search doesn't turn up where I read it, but I did read it. Nulli wasn't making that comment up out of whole cloth.

#36 | POSTED BY JEFFJ "

You're right, Jeff.

legalinsurrection.com

Keep up the quality and accurate posting, Nulli.

#37 | Posted by goatman at 2019-08-19 01:50 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

--Keep up the quality and accurate posting, Nulli.

Thanks, G-Man. I just tell the truth, and they think it's hell. :)

#38 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-08-19 02:00 PM | Reply

Here is what else Baquet said, according to Slate:

Baquet, in his remarks, seemed to fault the complaining readers, and the world, for their failure to understand the Times and its duties in the era of Trump. "What I'm saying is that our readers and some of our staff cheer us when we take on Donald Trump, but they jeer at us when we take on Joe Biden. They sometimes want us to pretend that he was not elected president, but he was elected president," Baquet said.

Yet the problem for the Times is not whether it can navigate social-media controversies or satisfy an appetite for #resistance-based outrage, both of which it can tell itself are not a newspaper's job to do.

The closest Baquet came to identifying a moment when the paper had misjudged current events was when he described it as being "a little tiny bit flat-footed" after the Mueller investigation ended. "Our readers who want Donald Trump to go away suddenly thought, Holy ----, Bob Mueller is not going to do it,'" Baquet said. "And Donald Trump got a little emboldened politically, I think. Because, you know, for obvious reasons. And I think that the story changed. A lot of the stuff we're talking about started to emerge like six or seven weeks ago."

"By this account, the question of how to address presidential racism was a newly emerged one, something the paper would need to pivot into now that the collusion story is no longer viable."

The New York Times Unites vs. Twitter: Transcript of Baquet talk to NYT staffers

#39 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-08-19 02:04 PM | Reply

This really is amazing. Here we have a major media outlet strategizing how they can slant their coverage of one politician in order to give an advantage to his opponent. And they wonder why their credibility is at historic lows.

#40 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-19 02:07 PM | Reply

--And they wonder why their credibility is at historic lows.

Their credibility should have been shot when they carried water for Josef Stalin in the 1930s.

#41 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-08-19 02:12 PM | Reply

"the paper would need to pivot into now that the collusion story is no longer viable."

Exactly what I said in #3 that know-nothing JPW trashed.

#42 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-08-19 02:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I think that we've got to change. I mean, the vision for coverage for the next two years is what I talked about earlier: How do we cover a guy who makes these kinds of remarks? How do we cover the world's reaction to him? How do we do that while continuing to cover his policies? How do we cover America, that's become so divided by Donald Trump? How do we grapple with all the stuff you all are talking about? How do we write about race in a thoughtful way, something we haven't done in a large way in a long time? That, to me, is the vision for coverage. You all are going to have to help us shape that vision. But I think that's what we're going to have to do for the rest of the next two years.

That sounds like a legit set of questions there.

Trump is such a schitt storm it's exhausting and almost impossible to cover only a small range of the stuff coming out of this WH.

Thanks, G-Man. I just tell the truth, and they think it's hell. :)

#38 | Posted by nullifidian

I apologize for the snark when you were correct.

Congrats, blind squirrel. Congrats!

#43 | Posted by jpw at 2019-08-19 02:31 PM | Reply

Exactly what I said in #3 that know-nothing JPW trashed.

#42 | Posted by nullifidian

www.ebay.com

#44 | Posted by jpw at 2019-08-19 02:33 PM | Reply

#44

Seems like you need that more than anyone else on this thread, JPW.

#45 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-08-19 02:38 PM | Reply

"Here we have a major media outlet strategizing how they can slant their coverage of one politician"

That's normal. You don't think Fox News does that?

#46 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-19 02:44 PM | Reply

#46

LOL, Basquet would eat a bullet if he heard anyone compare the Grey Lady to Fox News.

#47 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-08-19 02:59 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Seems like you need that more than anyone else on this thread, JPW.

#45 | POSTED BY RIGHTOCENTER

Ohhhhh snap!

#48 | Posted by jpw at 2019-08-19 03:08 PM | Reply

REIGN OF TERROR is coming @attackerman

An underappreciated virtue of the Times' 1619 project is its power to reveal who would have defended slavery and Jim Crow in the name of Freedom.

David Frum "" @davidfrum

Good morning America. I see many of you today talking about events tracing back 400 years. Stop that once! Return to talking about ME https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1163063723952676864 ...

#49 | Posted by tonyroma at 2019-08-19 05:11 PM | Reply

Keep up the quality and accurate posting, Nulli.

#37 | POSTED BYGOATMAN

As a reward for such high quality and accurate posting ...

I'm going to send Nulli a pallet full of books all titled 'Who Stole The American Dream?' to him for Christmas.

#50 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-08-19 05:15 PM | Reply

I'm going to send Nulli a pallet full of books all titled 'Who Stole The American Dream?' to him for Christmas.
POSTED BY PINCHALOAF AT 2019-08-19 05:15 PM | REPLY

He lacks the attention span necessary to read them.

#51 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-08-19 05:20 PM | Reply

51

so do I.

Afterall, since it's only 1 book...how many times would I read it?

You, OTOH, might not realize it's the same book and keep on to each copy......LOL

#52 | Posted by eberly at 2019-08-19 05:22 PM | Reply

When the truth is not a matter of balance, but comes down to a moral question of right and wrong, honest journalism must adapt.

I suspect that Baquet said something significant when he admitted that "newsrooms haven't confronted [a story] like this since the 1960s." For a lot of Americans, not just journalists, the whole question of racism in this country went silent after the passage of the civil rights laws, when Republicans resorted to their Southern Strategy. As Lee Atwater said so graphically, use of the "n" word was no longer acceptable. So racist messages were sent via dog whistles that gave the sender a veneer of deniability. On the surface, it appeared as though the problem of racism had been solved.

But the election of our first African American president combined with rapidly changing demographics sparked a revival of the confederate insurgency. Writers like Doug Muder caught on to what was happening quite a while ago with the rise of the Tea Party. When Donald Trump entered the national political stage by embracing the "birtherism" conspiracy theory, he put his own racism front and center. Over the years, it has simply become more obvious. If recent events finally made that clear to the New York Times, we can welcome them to the party"however late their arrival happens to be.

Baquet got it absolutely right when he said that "this one is a story about what it means to be an American in 2019."

Will a statement like that ignite backlash from those who insist on putting white people at the center of our history? Absolutely! It is precisely why, in the tweet above, Erickson referred to something he calls a "racial lens." To see our history through the eyes of someone who didn't share his perspective is viewed as inflammatory.

But that doesn't make it any less true. Getting to the truth about what it means to be an American is the question that is on the table right now. The answer isn't a matter of left vs. right, but of right vs. wrong. Nancy LeTourneau

#53 | Posted by tonyroma at 2019-08-19 05:36 PM | Reply

"This is a smoking gun. It shows the most powerful news organization in the country congratulating itself for setting the anti-Trump narrative on Russia collusion, and seamlessly transitioning to setting a narrative of Trump as racist after collusion flopped.

There is a collusion case to be made, but it's not about Trump and Russia. It's about powerful news organizations throwing their weight behind Democrats."

legalinsurrection.com

#54 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-08-19 07:43 PM | Reply

It's about powerful news organizations throwing their weight behind Democrats.

Oh those pesky facts, always throwing their weight behind the Democrats, and exposing Trump for the failure he is.

Why can't we be more like China and make up whatever we want to be the news, or like Russia and kill off journalists who disagree with Trump?

We need more Fascism!

Sherp demands it!

#55 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-08-19 08:12 PM | Reply

"It shows the most powerful news organization in the country congratulating itself for setting the anti-Trump narrative on Russia collusion, and seamlessly transitioning to setting a narrative of Trump as racist after collusion flopped."

Oh please. Nothing like trying to rewrite the history of the last 3 years.

#56 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-08-19 08:51 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Non-historians don't seem to under stand the United States of America wasn't founded till 1776...at the earliest.

#57 | Posted by Tor at 2019-08-19 10:24 PM | Reply

#55 | POSTED BY CLOWN-SHACK
#56 | POSTED BY GAL_TUESDAY

Is the NYT a liberal friendly news outlet?

#58 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-08-19 10:49 PM | Reply

#57 I tell people that all the time, especially the drama queens who say Americans decimated the Indians. No, that would be the Spaniards. By the time there was a United States of America, pretty much the Indian slaughter was over except for a few skirmishes for the next hundred years

#59 | Posted by goatman at 2019-08-19 11:03 PM | Reply

Non-historians don't seem to understand the United States of America wasn't founded till 1776...at the earliest.

Obviously the term "founding" is being used to connote that the economic/social course for what would become the United States was unmistakably established by the introduction of legal slavery as a source of wealth creation and economic power, along with the arising society whose growth benefited from the goods and services produced through slavery.

#60 | Posted by tonyroma at 2019-08-20 09:43 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Give police a break. A C average in high school and 6 weeks of training gets a badge."

Where I live you need an associates degree. I used to write my cousin's term papers in criminal justice before he joined the NYPD. He paid me in weed. Other guys got the cop fetishists to do their assignments, dangling the hopes that they might some day be a cop's wife in front of them. Those guys had it made. These girls would even come over to their apartments to clean their bathrooms and do their laundry. Female recruits didn't have those options. And yeah, they're quietly resentful about it.

#61 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2019-08-20 09:59 AM | Reply

@TonyRoma

It would be unfair to blame Pakistan for things that happened under British rule.

#62 | Posted by Tor at 2019-08-20 11:00 AM | Reply

Who was the King of Dahomey?

Who sold the African men, women, and children?

Before buyers you had to have the seller.

Who sold the Africam?

If the history of slavery is told in its entirety, start at the beginning.

#63 | Posted by Petrous at 2019-08-20 01:26 PM | Reply

If the history of slavery is told in its entirety, start at the beginning.

In the summer of 1619, two warships manned by English privateers raided a Portuguese vessel the pirates hoped was -------- with gold. Instead, they found and divided up an altogether different cargo: some 350 African slaves, taken in ------- possibly from what is now Angola. What happened to all those poor souls may never be known " they were among the early wave of the more than 12 million Africans sent across the Atlantic to live and die in slavery in the New World.

But we do know that, in August of that year, the English privateers appeared not far from the colony of Jamestown, in modern-day Virginia, and bartered 20 to 30 of these Africans for food from the English settlers there. That transaction 400 years ago marked the first landfall of black people on the shores of what would become the United States.

So the very first slaves were STOLEN and then monetized by the English pirates who pilfered them.

Before buyers you had to have the seller.

True, but that has little if nothing to do with what happened to the slaves once they were imported to America and how their very presence shaped the country that would eventually separate itself from British rule. The colonies were far from the only market for slave traders in this hemisphere. To me, this story's relevance isn't about the mechanics and logistics of the slave trade. It's about the totality of effects that slavery had on the economic and social development it facilitated in the land and society now known as America.

#64 | Posted by tonyroma at 2019-08-20 02:55 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

It would be unfair to blame Pakistan for things that happened under British rule.

No one is doing that. The European colonists largely created and lived by their own laws regarding the business of slavery.

In October 1705, Virginia passed a law stating that if a master happened to kill a slave who was undergoing "correction," it was not a crime.

Indeed, the act would be viewed as if it had never occurred.

Furthermore, the legislation said, when slaves were declared runaways, it was "lawful for any person ... to kill and destroy [them] by such ways and means as he ... shall think fit."

Short of killing, the law added, "dismembering" was approved.

In practice, toes were usually cut off.

It had been 86 years since a British ship landed in Virginia with the first documented captive Africans to reach the mainland of English North America. And it had been 86 years since the colony's governor and council had convened the first continuous representative assembly of Europeans in what would become the United States.

Those two events, weeks apart in the summer of 1619, would become pillars of the national edifice, as the founders erected a structure of freedom alongside a brutal system of slavery.

#65 | Posted by tonyroma at 2019-08-20 04:03 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Really?

So all bad things that happened in other British colonies should be blamed on the locals?

#66 | Posted by Tor at 2019-08-20 04:13 PM | Reply

To chunk the entire founding of this country down to racism/slavery is so obvious in its agenda, historical ignorance, and an utter lack of contextual perspective.

Slavery was prevalent throughout the world well into the 19th century and dated as far back as the ancient Egyptians, most likely much further than that.

Never mind the Northwest ordinance that was enacted around the time the Constitution was ratified.

#67 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-20 04:20 PM | Reply

"To chunk the entire founding of this country down to racism/slavery"

Just 3/5 of it, JeffJ.

You very sorely lack perspective.

#68 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-20 04:30 PM | Reply

"Slavery was prevalent throughout the world well into the 19th century and dated as far back as the ancient Egyptians, most likely much further than that."

In that case, just go ahead and chunk the entire founding of the world down to racism/slavery.

Because that is what you are saying.

You're saying it's not fair to hang slavery as an albatross around America's neck because other countries had slavery too.

You're looking for excuses, and finding plenty. Anything to avoid looking our nation's history dead in the eye.

#69 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-20 04:34 PM | Reply

#68

Ha! Your lack of perspective is very well known in these parts. To view events that happened centuries ago through a modern-day prism and without taking into account how the world was at the time these events were actually occurring is the height of a lack of perspective.

#70 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-20 04:35 PM | Reply

#69

I'm not excusing anything.

Slavery is a horrible sin of this nation, a truly dark stain that should never be forgotten or diminished.

This country went to war over ending the institution of slavery and over 600,000 lives were lost fighting that war.

#71 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-20 04:36 PM | Reply

I know this is going to get tedious listening to you try and perform a Howard Zinn seance.

I need to mow the lawn. It's been 5 days since I last mowed.

#72 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-20 04:38 PM | Reply

To chunk the entire founding of this country down to racism/slavery is so obvious in its agenda, historical ignorance, and an utter lack of contextual perspective.

That isn't remotely what the project is about. It's about placing the factual realities of how slavery dictated the foundation and growth of America (because of the enormity and pervasiveness of slavery's economic and societal impact) and how it's vestiges continue to reverberate even in to today.

Perhaps taking the researcher's and author's stated words would lead to a much better understanding of this work than trying to continually deride any such effort as a negative. Our history is what it is. The project brings to light many facts heretofore either ignored, misunderstood or wrongly dismissed as insignificant or irrelevant by showing conclusively how these things were tied to the evolution of the colonies into the nation of the United States.

#73 | Posted by tonyroma at 2019-08-20 04:41 PM | Reply

I need to mow the lawn. It's been 5 days since I last mowed.
#72 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Is that code for something else?

I usually tell my wife every few days, "If you're backed up, I can call the plumber".

#74 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-08-20 04:41 PM | Reply

"This country went to war over ending the institution of slavery and over 600,000 lives were lost fighting that war."

LOL. To preserve the Union, remember your talking points and Lincoln's letter to the New York Times!

You'd like the story to end in 1865.

That's your very sore lack of perspective.

Truth is, aparthied persiated for a century afterwards.
And today, black households are still worth a fraction of whites.

#75 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-20 04:44 PM | Reply

"Slavery is a horrible sin of this nation, a truly dark stain that should never be forgotten or diminished."

Does our history of horrible sin have any impact in 2019, or has the truly dark stain evaporated out of day to day existence by now?

This is perspective you lack, JeffJ.

#76 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-20 04:47 PM | Reply

Let's talk 20th Century for a moment....

In 1908, a young black man named Green Cottenham was sold to the Tennessee Coal, Iron & Railroad Co. and sent to work in Slope No. 12 of the Pratt coal mines, near Birmingham, Ala. There he labored with 1,000 other men, facing the whip if he didn't dig the required eight tons of coal a day. At night, he slept chained in barracks.

Generations removed from 1619, Cottenham, 22, wound up at the mine for violating an Alabama vagrancy law that essentially made it a crime to be unemployed.

It was one of a tangle of oppressive laws that grew in the wake of slavery, which trapped African Americans in lives of penury and semi-bondage well into the 20th century. When he was arrested and couldn't pay his court fees, Cottenham was conveyed, by prior arrangement, to the company, which paid the money while he served his time at hard labor.

"Almost every law and method ... was employed by the legislatures to reduce the Negroes to serfdom," W.E.B. Du Bois, the African American historian and civil rights activist, wrote in 1903.

South Carolina barred black people from any occupation other then servant or farmer, unless they paid an annual tax, according to Foner, the historian. The flimsy vagrancy laws led to a vast system of arrests and slave labor across the South, Blackmon wrote.

Thousands of poor men and women, often the children of the enslaved, were beaten, abused and killed in mines and on farms after being sold into service by law enforcement officials.

This project is about what happened in the colonial US and US, not how slavery impacted other countries. This isn't about recounting that "slavery is bad," it's about how slavery shaped this nation, our laws, our social structures, our religious practices, our economy, and most every aspect that defines what America was and has become. It's less about blame than it should be about acknowledging and understanding not just the righteous and uplifting parts of the American experiment but also its darkness and ugliness too. There is no browbeating, just an attempt to set the record straight, even the parts that are unarguably hideous upon proper reflection.

#77 | Posted by tonyroma at 2019-08-20 04:57 PM | Reply

"it's about how slavery shaped this nation, our laws, our social structures, our religious practices, our economy, and most every aspect that defines what America was and has become."

But they're already tired of hearing about it.

Which is interesting, because I can assure you they never heard of Green Cottenham before the rest of us did, just now.

#78 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-20 05:02 PM | Reply

Thanks Snoofy. I appreciate that at least someone is interested in the story. I posted another article last week that tells the story of how trillions of dollars in wealth has been taken from black farmers in the Mississippi delta area over the last half century or so as a matter of laws and practices designed to do just that.

There are reasons black Americans household wealth lags far behind that of white Americans that have nothing to do with individual or cultural rectitude.

#79 | Posted by tonyroma at 2019-08-20 05:13 PM | Reply

Modern slave labor is alive and well throughout America in your penal institutions.

#80 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-08-20 05:23 PM | Reply

Baquet, in his remarks, seemed to fault the complaining readers, and the world, for their failure to understand the Times and its duties in the era of Trump. "What I'm saying is that our readers and some of our staff cheer us when we take on Donald Trump, but they jeer at us when we take on Joe Biden. They sometimes want us to pretend that he was not elected president, but he was elected president," Baquet said.

Yet the problem for the Times is not whether it can navigate social-media controversies or satisfy an appetite for #resistance-based outrage, both of which it can tell itself are not a newspaper's job to do.

The closest Baquet came to identifying a moment when the paper had misjudged current events was when he described it as being "a little tiny bit flat-footed" after the Mueller investigation ended. "Our readers who want Donald Trump to go away suddenly thought, Holy ----, Bob Mueller is not going to do it,'" Baquet said. "And Donald Trump got a little emboldened politically, I think. Because, you know, for obvious reasons. And I think that the story changed. A lot of the stuff we're talking about started to emerge like six or seven weeks ago."

"By this account, the question of how to address presidential racism was a newly emerged one, something the paper would need to pivot into now that the collusion story is no longer viable."

"How to address presidential racism was a newly emerged one, something the paper would need to pivot into now that the collusion story is no longer viable."
Looks like they found a way.

#81 | Posted by homerj at 2019-08-20 05:32 PM | Reply

"Something the paper would need to pivot into now that the collusion story is no longer viable."

#82 | Posted by homerj at 2019-08-20 05:32 PM | Reply

Thanks Snoofy. I appreciate that at least someone is interested in the story.
#79 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

Are you kidding? This is like peanut butter and jelly for the Snoofshack.

#83 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-08-20 05:35 PM | Reply

#81-82,(#39)

Creator of New York Times slavery project not surprised by conservative meltdown

Nikole Hannah-Jones, The New York Times correspondent and the visionary behind its ambitious examination of racial issues stemming from the 1619 arrival of enslaved people in the English colonies, isn't the least bit surprised by the meltdown among white conservatives reacting to her recasting American history with African Americans and slavery at the forefront.

"The whole reason we did the project in the first place is because our society has been unwilling to grapple with the legacy of slavery, with the centrality of slavery to the development of the United States," Hannah-Jones said in an interview Monday on MSNBC's All In with Chris Hayes. "So this isn't shocking to me."

A common complaint among many of the conservative critics was that the project struck them as an attack on President Donald Trump....

"Anyone [who] would call this a propaganda tool or that somehow I'd spent, you know, since February working on this to commemorate the anniversary because we, the New York Times, wanted to get' Trump is, of course, ridiculous," Hannah-Jones said.

"We didn't plan the anniversary to happen in August of 2019, just so it would coincide with Trump's issues with being called a racist."

Instead, Hannah-Jones explained that The 1619 Project "excavates our true nature and is in direct opposition to our founding myths." And, she said, that is why there has been such a negative reaction among many white conservatives who want to cling to a version of American history that places them at the exclusive center of the story.

"I think what a lot of conservatives want is they want to choose which parts of our path we remember and which parts of our path we forget," she said.

"And I don't understand why people are so afraid of, we're simply revealing the truth about our country."

#84 | Posted by tonyroma at 2019-08-20 05:49 PM | Reply

I need to mow the lawn. It's been 5 days since I last mowed.
#72 | POSTED BY JEFFJ
---
Is that code for something else?

Unfortunately, no. I just finished and man is it humid today.

I usually tell my wife every few days, "If you're backed up, I can call the plumber".

#74 | POSTED BY SHEEPLESCHISM

Hilarious!

#85 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-20 05:58 PM | Reply

"There are reasons black Americans household wealth lags far behind that of white Americans that have nothing to do with individual or cultural rectitude."

They prefer to believe The Myth Of The Self-Made Man.

They choose to believe that if blacks are still struggling after 250 years of slavery, 100 years of segregation, and 75 years of on-paper equality, it's because blacks are individual and cultural failures, because the sins of the past have been fully rectified.

#86 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-20 06:01 PM | Reply

Anyone [who] would call this a propaganda tool or that somehow I'd spent, you know, since February working on this to commemorate the anniversary because we, the New York Times, wanted to get' Trump is, of course, ridiculous," Hannah-Jones said.

"We didn't plan the anniversary to happen in August of 2019, just so it would coincide with Trump's issues with being called a racist."

I do believe that this project has nothing to do with Trump. It's just interesting that their editor in a meeting was strategizing how The Times can put a racist slant on Trump coverage at the exact same time this project is coming to fruition.

Coincidence? Yeah, probably. Now that Russian collusion and obstruction are dead issues, this is the next pivot for NYT (and other outlets will certainly follow).

This is just a continuation of NYT admitting that with Trump they need to move away from straight journalism and into advocacy journalism.

Of course that was the same M.O. during the Obama years except they advocated in favor of the Obama administration. They were just smart enough not to admit it back then, even though it was painfully obvious.

#87 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-20 06:04 PM | Reply

"advocacy journalism"

Funny term to describe history.

#88 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-20 06:07 PM | Reply

I wasn't talking about history. I was talking about how they cover contemporary politics.

#89 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-20 06:13 PM | Reply

I do believe that this project has nothing to do with Trump. It's just interesting that their editor in a meeting was strategizing how The Times can put a racist slant on Trump coverage at the exact same time this project is coming to fruition.

As cited in posts #43 and #53, I don't for a second believe that is what Baquet was trying to convey. He alludes to what certain segments of READERS want from the Times, not that they are intentionally trying to slant coverage of Trump one way or another. Obama didn't politicize every single thing he perceived as a criticism from conservative media like Trump does regardless of what media outlet draws his ire.

The Times was not calling Trump racist on purpose, but the readers and the entire environment changed in recent weeks that coincided with the Mueller report not yet causing Trump any major issues. At the same time Trump ramped up language and conduct that could no longer be ignored for what it obviously was.

Baquet wasn't strategizing, he was talking about how things continue to change due to all that "Trump" entails as he struggles with figuring out how to keep up with the demands of some of his readership while maintaining the paper's editorial integrity at the same time.

At least that's how I read it.

#90 | Posted by tonyroma at 2019-08-20 06:22 PM | Reply

I'd say that's a very generous reading of it on your part, Tony.

Anyhow, I do think that we should separate Baquet's comments from Project 1619 since this isn't the type of thing that is hatched overnight, on a whim, for the purpose of contemporary politics.

They are trying to reframe or reshape American history.

I only brought up the Baquet thing in response to the block-quote you provided and put in bold.

#91 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-20 06:48 PM | Reply

"They are trying to reframe or reshape American history."

--------.

#92 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-20 06:54 PM | Reply

#91

Cool.

#93 | Posted by tonyroma at 2019-08-20 06:54 PM | Reply

#92

I agree with reframe. Not so much with reshape. The project is simply telling a fuller truth than is widely understood. That is not reshaping.

This country went to war over ending the institution of slavery and over 600,000 lives were lost fighting that war.

#71 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Not according to those still enamored with the confederate flag and notions of the pre civil war "gentility" in the South. THAT would be reshaping because the legally codified treatment of African-American slaves was anything but gentile.

#94 | Posted by tonyroma at 2019-08-20 07:01 PM | Reply

#64, really Tony? You post the slaves were stolen.

Now, try again.

The slaves were stolen, you ignored how they became slaves.

Go on. Go back at my post. Who sold the slaves.

If we're talking the history of slaves, who sold the black man?

Scary to have to look it up. I'll give you a hint...the slave seller looks like the slave.

#95 | Posted by Petrous at 2019-08-21 09:31 AM | Reply

80, Article XIII, "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted"

#96 | Posted by Petrous at 2019-08-21 09:34 AM | Reply

I answered your question, which I find moot in any relevance in the discussion:

...that has little if nothing to do with what happened to the slaves once they were imported to America and how their very presence shaped the country that would eventually separate itself from British rule. The colonies were far from the only market for slave traders in this hemisphere. To me, this story's relevance isn't about the mechanics and logistics of the slave trade. It's about the totality of effects that slavery had on the economic and social development it facilitated in the land and society now known as America.
Which is precisely why the project was undertaken. Who in Africa facilitated the deliverance of slaves is a completely different tangent that has little to do with the impact of slavery upon American society.

#97 | Posted by tonyroma at 2019-08-21 10:20 AM | Reply

It has everything to do with slavery.

If you sell your own race into slavery, then slavery wasn't a racial issue.

If you bothered to read, slaves not only were the same race, but nations that won wars put their enemies in chains.

Some slaves, the indentured servant, was sold to pay their own debts. Others were captured and made slaves.

Ignoring the black man selling the black man doesn't support the racial narrative. Nor does blacks in America owning blacks.

If history refuses to see the lack of race at the root of its birth, then its a lie.

#98 | Posted by Petrous at 2019-08-21 11:21 AM | Reply

The times they are a changing:

Charleston plantation guides say a negative reaction to stirring history can be a good thing

Truth Telling

www.charlestoncitypaper.com

#99 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-08-21 12:56 PM | Reply

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