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Friday, August 23, 2019

The 1619 Project - the New York Times Magazine's ambitious special issue arguing for an expanded 400-year history of America centering the story of slavery and its repercussions - has apparently made many leading conservatives very angry.

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And on a related note:

How white women's "investment" in slavery has shaped America today

White women are sometimes seen as bystanders to slavery. A historian explains why that's wrong.

www.vox.com

#1 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-08-23 11:25 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

And also this:

Charleston plantation guides say a negative reaction to stirring history can be a good thing

www.charlestoncitypaper.com

#2 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-08-23 11:29 AM | Reply

... and here I was hoping to read about Philip II of Macedonia and his son Alexander The Great : (

#3 | Posted by MSgt at 2019-08-23 12:00 PM | Reply

I'd be more interested in how blacks respond.

Not Sharpton and Jackson, but your average everyday American. - like Boaz.

#4 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-08-23 02:56 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

I have a friend whose now deceased father got into a fight with a tour guide at some plantation about 25 or 30 years ago when the tour guide happily proclaimed that the slaves liked being slaves. This comment from the Charleston City paper article made me wonder if more African Americans will go to visit plantations now that some of them aren't promoting the moonlight and magnolias meme:

More importantly, he notes that McLeod Plantation seems to be doing fine, even with some negative feedback. "There are African American tourists who will come, there are tourists who want a more historical viewpoint, and if we start changing the narrative, people who are doing history tourism will know what to expect," he says.

#5 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-08-23 03:05 PM | Reply

Trump's fault!

-Dean Baquet

#6 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-08-23 03:22 PM | Reply

Is this a surprise? Any conservative should balk at anything the NYT does as long as Baquet is there. The NYT has proven they are not trustworthy anymore

#7 | Posted by goatman at 2019-08-23 03:25 PM | Reply

#5 "made me wonder if more African Americans will go to visit plantations now that some of them aren't promoting the moonlight and magnolias meme:"

I would have never went BEFORE this white "wokeness".

What in the HELL could possibly be gained from visiting a "plantation". GMAFB!

#8 | Posted by fresno500 at 2019-08-23 03:27 PM | Reply

What in the HELL could possibly be gained from visiting a "plantation". GMAFB!

Maybe if your ancestors worked on one? I don't know. Do Jewish people visit the sites of concentration camps? I don't know that either. I've never been to a plantation, but I did visit a site for the Underground Railroad (Rokeby):

www.newenglandhistoricalsociety.com

#9 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-08-23 03:40 PM | Reply

ugh!

#10 | Posted by fresno500 at 2019-08-23 03:42 PM | Reply

"has apparently made many leading conservatives very angry."

Nice try.
Conservatives were already very angry before this.

#11 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-23 03:44 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#10 Too exploitive? I went with a friend who teaches courses in Slavery and the Civil War.

#12 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-08-23 03:50 PM | Reply

--The NYT has proven they are not trustworthy anymore

Have they ever been trustworthy? They were covering up Stalin's crimes as far back as the 1930s. They have a long history of communist apologetics right up to recently, when they "commemorated" the Apollo program by bashing it and talking about how more "gender inclusive" the Soviet space program was.

#13 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-08-23 04:01 PM | Reply

"What in the HELL could possibly be gained from visiting a "plantation"

Cotton.

#14 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-23 04:01 PM | Reply

"--The NYT has proven they are not trustworthy anymore"

In before ROC says STS.

#15 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-23 04:01 PM | Reply

It's pretty funny when the "political correctness is killing this country" crowd can't help being a bunch of childish snowflakes.

#16 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2019-08-23 04:25 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

There was a old plantation house in the town I grew up in, we went there on a school field trip or whatever.

#17 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-23 04:30 PM | Reply

We can try to understand
The New York Times effect on fragile white man.

#18 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-23 05:03 PM | Reply

Revisionist history. Marxist infiltration in our education system continues to pay dividends even though the communists that started it all have passed.

#19 | Posted by visitor_ at 2019-08-23 07:05 PM | Reply

"Revisionist history."

Show us where it's false, then.

#20 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-23 07:07 PM | Reply

" a series called the 1619 Project, marking the 400th anniversary of the arrival of the first enslaved Africans in the colony of Virginia"

One of the things that I never knew growing up was that the colonies which became United States were neither the first nor even one of the largest participants in the Transatlantic Slave Trade. The first Transatlantic slave voyage was completed in 1526 by the Portuguese, to Brazil. The United States' territory accounted for about 5% of the total Transatlantic slave trade.

#21 | Posted by sentinel at 2019-08-23 07:23 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I'm skimming the original NY Times article now. It looks interesting, unlike many of the spin articles talking about the article. Unfortunately the NYT is blocking me from saving it to my computer by right clicking on it.

#22 | Posted by sentinel at 2019-08-23 08:04 PM | Reply

'revisionist history' to be a consciously falsified interpretation of the past to serve partisan or ideological purposes in the present.

#23 | Posted by visitor_ at 2019-08-23 09:13 PM | Reply

One of the things that I never knew growing up was that the colonies which became United States were neither the first nor even one of the largest participants in the Transatlantic Slave Trade. The first Transatlantic slave voyage was completed in 1526 by the Portuguese, to Brazil. The United States' territory accounted for about 5% of the total Transatlantic slave trade.

#21 | POSTED BY SENTINEL

Ah, the old "But Bobby did it first, and he did it more" excuse. Did your parents buy that one?

#24 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2019-08-23 10:37 PM | Reply

close italics

#25 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2019-08-23 10:38 PM | Reply

Conservatives are a bunch of whiney little cry babies. They need the waaaaaambulance on stand by 24/7/365.

#26 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-08-23 10:43 PM | Reply

"Ah, the old "But Bobby did it first, and he did it more" excuse. Did your parents buy that one?"

Why exactly did me pointing out a couple of historical facts cause this emotional reaction where you felt the need to make this ad hominem? I never said or implied that what the Portuguese and the Hispanics did excused what the British colonists did. I would say the wider context is relevant when one of the selling points of the NY Times story is that "most Americans still don't know the full story of slavery" and it's aiming to clear up misconceptions people may have about it.

#27 | Posted by sentinel at 2019-08-23 11:21 PM | Reply

I never said or implied that what the Portuguese and the Hispanics did excused what the British colonists did. I would say the wider context is relevant when one of the selling points of the NY Times story is that "most Americans still don't know the full story of slavery" and it's aiming to clear up misconceptions people may have about it.

In terms of the impact it had on the Africans who were brought here and their descendants (which is the point of the story), it's a distinction without a difference.

Why don't "conservatives" want to deal with the root cause of the vast discrepancy in wealth between people who are the descendants of slaveholders and people who are the descendants of slaves? Maybe because it's easier to blame blacks for their own plight.

#28 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2019-08-24 01:35 AM | Reply

We should dig up the responible and make them pay. Cant judge the past based on the morality of the present.

#29 | Posted by visitor_ at 2019-08-24 02:54 AM | Reply

What a crock of BS!!!

#30 | Posted by Sniper at 2019-08-24 09:42 AM | Reply

Why don't "conservatives" want to deal with the root cause of the vast discrepancy in wealth between people who are the descendants of slaveholders and people who are the descendants of slaves? Maybe because it's easier to blame blacks for their own plight.
#28 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2019-08-24 01:35 AM

Do you have any data on the 'discrepancy in wealth between people who are the descendants of slaveholders and people who are the descendants of slaves?'
I'd be interested in taking a look at it. Considering how many descendants of slaveholders are also descendants of slaves, I imagine it would have been an incredibly difficult to formulate that data.

I know that I'm a descendant of both slave and slave-owner. I look forward to seeing where my wealth or lack-thereof will fit into that 'vast discrepancy'.

#31 | Posted by Avigdore at 2019-08-24 10:26 AM | Reply

If conservatives are balking at it, it must be worth a look. Conservatives are increasingly resistant to facts, history and science.

#32 | Posted by JOE at 2019-08-24 10:31 AM | Reply

==Conservatives are increasingly resistant to facts, history and science.

Haha. One example of many of the Orwellian, Leftist assault on truth, facts, history and science:

Calif. college students: Objective truth a 'white supremacist' idea

Activists say allowing conservative Heather Mac Donald to speak 'a form of violence'

www.washingtontimes.com

#33 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-08-24 11:12 AM | Reply

"'revisionist history' to be a consciously falsified interpretation of the past to serve partisan or ideological purposes in the present."

Can you cite specific examples where the NYT article does this? If it's historically inaccurate, then I think it's fair to point that out, but we need examples.

#34 | Posted by sentinel at 2019-08-24 12:20 PM | Reply

"In terms of the impact it had on the Africans who were brought here and their descendants (which is the point of the story), it's a distinction without a difference."

If there's no difference, then why do you object to it being pointed out? You're reacting a lot like the "conservatives" who object to facts being presented, possibly because they perceive them to be a threat to their narrative.

#35 | Posted by sentinel at 2019-08-24 12:31 PM | Reply

"By 1836 more than $600 million, almost half of the economic activity in the United States, derived directly or indirectly from the cotton produced by the million-odd slaves," Coates testified at a congressional hearing in June.

Yet according to Olmstead, Rhode, and others, the $600 million number appears to be fabricated, using double and even triple-counting to arrive at an inflated figure.

#36 | Posted by visitor_ at 2019-08-24 01:19 PM | Reply

Do you have any data on the 'discrepancy in wealth between people who are the descendants of slaveholders and people who are the descendants of slaves?'

#31 | POSTED BY AVIGDORE

"American history is replete with horrific episodes that prevented the accumulation of black wealth for centuries: first slavery, then indentured servitude under Jim Crow, segregated housing and schooling, seizure of property and racial discrimination. The result was that in 1962, two years before the passage of landmark civil-rights legislation and the Great Society programme, the average wealth of white households was seven times greater than that of black households. Yet after decades of declining discrimination and the construction of a modern welfare state, that ratio remains the same. The mean of black household wealth is $138,200"for whites, that number is $933,700." www.economist.com

When whites have a 7:1 headstart and the majority of political and economic power, and blacks experience continuing discrimination in employment, housing, and education exactly how are blacks supposed to catch up?

#37 | Posted by whodaman at 2019-08-24 01:29 PM | Reply

Not to mention, a lot of that white wealth was originally produced by slave labor.

#38 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2019-08-24 01:41 PM | Reply

"Few americans remember Greenwood, a once-prosperous African-American neighbourhood in Tulsa, Oklahoma, that was known as Black Wall Street. In 1921 Dick Rowland, a black shoeshiner, was charged with attempting to rape a white lift-girl in a downtown office building. An incensed white mob gathered at the courthouse to lynch him, then proceeded to Greenwood for two days of rioting, looting and murder. City officials aided and abetted the violence. In the end 35 blocks were destroyed, 10,000 black people were made homeless, and as many as 300 were killed. Residents reported aeroplanes flying overhead, dropping explosives. It was one of the worst incidents of racial violence since the civil war. Tens of millions of dollars in black wealth were destroyed or stolen. No compensation was awarded to either the victims or their descendants." www.economist.com

See also, the Wilmington Riots, Omaha Riots, etc. In fact here is a list of 97 of them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:White_American_riots_in_the_United_States

#39 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2019-08-24 01:58 PM | Reply

en.wikipedia.org

#40 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2019-08-24 01:58 PM | Reply

What does the article n the NY Times magazine and the article in the cultist times have in common? nothing, both are distinctly different and if you read the 1619 article has nothing in common regarding a white supremacist Ms. MacDonald speaking, but describes the trials of those Americans that rose up after slavery to be proud patriotic Americans who fought and died for this country while their families were treated as second class citizens or worst.
Ms Mac Donald has put herself as a leader who advocated torture, police profiling and now claiming that those claiming trump is a racist are the racists. As nulli pointed out there is the orwellian spin but it's from the conservatives he/she embraces.

#41 | Posted by Badcat at 2019-08-24 05:38 PM | Reply

"Do you have any data on the 'discrepancy in wealth between people who are the descendants of slaveholders and people who are the descendants of slaves?'
#31 | POSTED BY AVIGDORE"

A lot of those are going to be the same people, like the six children Thomas Jefferson fathered with Sally Hemings.

#42 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-24 08:00 PM | Reply

"Yet according to Olmstead, Rhode, and others, the $600 million number appears to be fabricated"

Figured this had to be a cut n paste job.
But I didn't expect it to come from Furry site DeviantArt.com!
www.deviantart.com

#43 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-24 08:05 PM | Reply

The problem with it is, as usual, it is libbie revisionist history.

#44 | Posted by MSgt at 2019-08-24 09:00 PM | Reply

again the Left injects racism and hate

#45 | Posted by Maverick at 2019-08-25 09:58 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Yeah, "the left" is responsible for racism in this country, not "The Founders", who wrote a Constitution asserting that Africans were/are less than human, and could legally be separated from their own children, were not allowed to marry, learn to read and write, or practice their religion (many of them were Muslims), could be beaten, raped and killed with impunity. Who could possibly object to that? Why would their descendants have "hate" in their hearts?

This is not an issue of "people of color", although they obviously also suffer from discrimination. Only one minority group (other than the indigenous peoples, who were just massacred), experienced this in America. People who have been subjected to oppression don't just "forgive and forget". Remember "The Troubles" in the UK? How many generations did that span? The Sunni and the Shia have been at each other's throats for almost 1400 years. How about the Turks vs the Armenians? How about India vs Pakistan? People don't forget. It's ridiculous to expect African-Americans to just forgive and forget 400 years of oppression.

#46 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2019-08-25 12:16 PM | Reply

"Only one minority group (other than the indigenous peoples, who were just massacred), experienced this in America."

What about the Chinese? There were anti-Chinese laws on the books in California until the 1960s.

What about the jews? I feel like I shouldn't even need to elaborate here.

What about the Irish? In the US and everywhere else?

#47 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-08-25 01:22 PM | Reply

It's a virtual certainty that every one of us has had an ancestor who was a slave. Is it ridiculous for all of us to forgive and forget?

Am I wrong for not giving a ----?

#48 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-08-25 01:23 PM | Reply

#47 to add to your list, persecution of Catholics.

#49 | Posted by goatman at 2019-08-25 01:42 PM | Reply

Led by black activists and a Republican Party pushed left by the blatant recalcitrance of white Southerners, the years directly after slavery saw the greatest expansion of human and civil rights this nation would ever see. In 1865, Congress passed the 13th Amendment, making the United States one of the last nations in the Americas to outlaw slavery. The following year, black Americans, exerting their new political power, pushed white legislators to pass the Civil Rights Act, the nation's first such law and one of the most expansive pieces of civil rights legislation Congress has ever passed. It codified black American citizenship for the first time, prohibited housing discrimination and gave all Americans the right to buy and inherit property, make and enforce contracts and seek redress from courts. In 1868, Congress ratified the 14th Amendment, ensuring citizenship to any person born in the United States. Today, thanks to this amendment, every child born here to a European, Asian, African, Latin American or Middle Eastern immigrant gains automatic citizenship. The 14th Amendment also, for the first time, constitutionally guaranteed equal protection under the law. Ever since, nearly all other marginalized groups have used the 14th Amendment in their fights for equality (including the recent successful arguments before the Supreme Court on behalf of same-sex marriage). Finally, in 1870, Congress passed the 15th Amendment, guaranteeing the most critical aspect of democracy and citizenship " the right to vote " to all men regardless of "race, color, or previous condition of servitude."

The article the first essay about the 1619 project identifies al people of color. The black population was more at risk due to the nation enabling enslavement as a economic tool for a developing country. THey ignored the fact they were human beings. With the 13th 14th and 15th amendments if gave all persecuted groups jews, irish, catholics chinese etc. recourse to the law. Unfortunately the reconstruction was short lived and the southern democrats reasserted their influence with the 1877 compromise. Creating the initiation of jim crowe laws and forcing the feds to allow southern states to deal with black people without federal interference.

#50 | Posted by Badcat at 2019-08-25 02:04 PM | Reply

It's a virtual certainty that every one of us has had an ancestor who was a slave. Is it ridiculous for all of us to forgive and forget?
Am I wrong for not giving a ----?

#48 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

So the only reason blacks have 1/7 the wealth of whites is because blacks are just inferior, right? Otherwise, what is the explanation? By the way, which other "immigrants" to this country have been legally treated by government as being less than fully human and eligible for ownership by other people? Which other "immigrants" were subjected to lynching (3,446 between 1882 and 1968, a "9/11's worth"). Notice, it was still happening in 1968, only 50 years ago. Which other people in this country were declared by SCOTUS to have no rights a white man had to respect? Which other people were legally segregated in public schools?

No other group in this country had their labor legally stolen for 250 years, aided and abetted by the government. No other group was brought to this country (by the millions) against their will.

This is America's "original sin". It is the reason for the Electoral College which diminishes democracy in our elections and for the 2nd Amendment that is responsible for 11,000 murders/homocides per year (the equivalent of 3.67 9/11's per year).

This country needs a "truth and reconciliation" commission to even begin to resolve these issues largely because of the unwillingness of white people in this country to understand the consequences of their own history here.

#51 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2019-08-26 08:57 AM | Reply

When whites have a 7:1 headstart and the majority of political and economic power, and blacks experience continuing discrimination in employment, housing, and education exactly how are blacks supposed to catch up? - #37 | Posted by whodaman at 2019-08-24 01:29 PM
Is there any reason that you switched from slave/slave-owner to black and white?
It's a very dishonest practice.
I am a reasonably white guy. I am the descendent of a slave and of a slave-owner. There are lots of whites and blacks in the country who immigrated after slavery was abolished. You are pretending that the color of someone's skin determines whether or not they were a descendent of a slave. Your whole argument is based on that untruth?

I asked if you have any evidence for your (evidently false premise) that slave-owner/slave descendant wealth discrepency was vast. You could have just mentioned that you were just making it up. I'ts not like we're going to respect you any less, you know?

#52 | Posted by Avigdore at 2019-08-26 09:25 AM | Reply

-This country needs a "truth and reconciliation" commission to even begin to resolve these issues largely because of the unwillingness of white people in this country to understand the consequences of their own history here.

LOL....talk about a lame idea. that will go nowhere. I don't have a solution but that isn't one.

#53 | Posted by eberly at 2019-08-26 10:15 AM | Reply

"This country needs a "truth and reconciliation" commission to even begin to resolve these issues largely because of the unwillingness of white people in this country to understand the consequences of their own history here."

It's interesting that you say "white people," as if the white population of the US today had some connection to a white ancestor living in the US prior to the emancipation proclamation. In short, you're ascribing a guilt to them that they had no part of. How could someone whose family came over in 1920 be held accountable for something that ended 55 years earlier?

I don't totally disagree with you. One thing that is not largely understood is that black people didn't put money in banks, because all too often the white bankers would simply keep it, and the non-whites had no recourse to get it back. Would that affect the economic worth of a black household today? It certainly could, but not in huge numbers.

I'm not even against reparations, but I suspect that most of the families that made money off of the backs of slaves are long gone. And it certainly wouldn't be fair to make the ancestors of someone who was very far removed from slavery to pay them.

#54 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-08-26 11:46 AM | Reply

"You are pretending that the color of someone's skin determines whether or not they were a descendent of a slave. Your whole argument is based on that untruth?"

Very true. Lots of very white people have had ancestors who were slaves.

#55 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-08-26 11:47 AM | Reply

"Very true. Lots of very white people have had ancestors who were slaves."

True.

But if you had to make a conclusion based on macro factors, what would it be?

In general, on average, are descendants of slaves poorer, or richer? Again...on average.

#56 | Posted by Danforth at 2019-08-26 11:54 AM | Reply

#56 If you see my #31, you'll see i asked the same question. Whodaman claimed that there was a vast wealth discrepancy between the descendants of slaves and slave owners. I was interested in seeing that data because i know that skin color isn't a demarcation of relatives who were slaves or slave owners

#57 | Posted by Avigdore at 2019-08-26 12:02 PM | Reply

"I was interested in seeing that data because i know that skin color isn't a demarcation of relatives who were slaves or slave owners"

True.

But again, if you had to come to a general macro conclusion, based oh the history of wealth, the history of race relations, and the history of inheritance laws, what would you conclude?

Again, I'm talking macro, not micro.

#58 | Posted by Danforth at 2019-08-26 12:05 PM | Reply

"But again, if you had to come to a general macro conclusion, based oh the history of wealth, the history of race relations, and the history of inheritance laws, what would you conclude?"

Do you have enough information to make a conclusion? I don't.

In fact, I would have to conclude that the descendants of every slave include those who are poor, and those who are not.

#59 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-08-26 01:15 PM | Reply

"Do you have enough information to make a conclusion? I don't. "

Then the answer is to pick up a book. Otherwise, your head stays in the sand.

"In fact, I would have to conclude that the descendants of every slave include those who are poor, and those who are not."

Duh.

But if you had to answer one or the other, based on history, race relations, macro, and math...what would it be? Remember, the barometers are in general and on average.

#60 | Posted by Danforth at 2019-08-26 01:21 PM | Reply

And I think we're going down a rabbit hole relative to the article. Howard Zinn published a series of books written from a socialist perspective that was really intended to counter what was being taught by mainstream educators. Now, Howard Zinn lacked any sort of credibility (He was the Michael Moore of his generation), but he did provide a perspective that was missing. I'm not a huge fan of the US promoting a narrative where USans are ALWAYS the good guys and whomever we are fighting are the bad guys. More often than not, there are no good or bad, just opposing forces.

The topic of slavery should not be avoided because it makes people uncomfortable, but not should it be used as a tool to intentionally make people uncomfortable. Whodaman's argument would seem to apply equally to a person who just immigrated in to someone whose ancestors owned slaves.

#61 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-08-26 01:28 PM | Reply

"But if you had to answer one or the other, based on history, race relations, macro, and math...what would it be? Remember, the barometers are in general and on average."

I would say that there is likely even dispersion. I would have no reason to think otherwise.

And like I said previously...we are all descendants of slaves.

#62 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-08-26 01:30 PM | Reply

"I would say that there is likely even dispersion. I would have no reason to think otherwise."

Pick up multiple books, then. Your current ones are doing you no good.

"And like I said previously...we are all descendants of slaves."

Only if you're playing Humpty Dumpty with the definition of slaves, like including serfs.

#63 | Posted by Danforth at 2019-08-26 01:34 PM | Reply

There will be no solution to America's racial problems until white people see it as a problem. Only whites have the power to fix the way white people view black people. How black people view white people is not the problem. If you think black people can change the behavior of white people you probably think women can change the behavior of rapists.

#64 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2019-08-26 01:46 PM | Reply

BTW when I say "white people" I mean anyone who other white people consider "white". Once upon a time that didn't include Irish or Italians or Jews. Now it does. That will never happen for black people.

#65 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2019-08-26 01:48 PM | Reply

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