Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Wednesday, August 28, 2019

A few years ago, TV celebrity Rachel Maddow was at Rockefeller University to hand out a prize that's given each year to a prominent female scientist. As Maddow entered the auditorium, someone overheard her say, "What is up with the dude wall?"

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America's new Red Guards have been invading fields you would think would be immune to politicization, like math.

#1 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-08-28 10:19 AM | Reply

One of the rare times I agree with Ms Maddow.

Sure, it is quite easy to criticize Ms Maddow, or make 'new Red Guards' comments.

But the difficult question to answer is: Why are only men show on these halls of fame?

So far, I've not seen a reasonable answer to that. Only griping and complaining about the messenger.

#2 | Posted by LampLighter at 2019-08-28 10:36 AM | Reply

www.campusreform.org

Math is 'unjust and grounded in discrimination,' educators moan

https://www.campusreform.org ...

Aug 23, 2017 - Two national organizations of math teachers are on a mission to prove that math education is "unjust and grounded in a legacy of institutional discrimination.". In a joint statement, the groups complain that making students "master the basics" leads to "segregation and separation ...

The "war on science" is real, and it's being waged by the Left.

#3 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-08-28 10:40 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

But the difficult question to answer is: Why are only men show on these halls of fame?
So far, I've not seen a reasonable answer to that. Only griping and complaining about the messenger.

Its not difficult, because its not a valid question ... its not why their images are up there.

Here is another way to look at it ...

Where are all the other students? Who were all the other students? Why don't they have Nobel Prizes?

Should we just get rid of the Nobel prize? Should we just allocate some many Nobel prizes for women? gays? People of Color?

Would that make the wall of images "better"? Hey be mediocre and get on the wall? Would they have discovered more because of it?

Or would it just make you, as in the DavidChapelle "you", feel better bout yourself?

No, a hall of fame wall is incentive to become one, it says you are here in this classroom that these great scientists sat in, we teach greatness here ....

#4 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-08-28 10:46 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

@#4 ... Its not difficult, because its not a valid question ... its not why their images are up there. ...

Yes, it is a valid question.

Why are those images up there?

#5 | Posted by LampLighter at 2019-08-28 10:50 AM | Reply

I would also point out ....

The walls are now blank .... similar to our movies, comedians and everything else in the white liberal "culture" today .....

Sanitized because everything is white male is political.

#6 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-08-28 10:52 AM | Reply

Yes, it is a valid question.

No its not ..

Why are those images up there?

FFS you can't be serious, its in the summary....

She was referring to a wall covered with portraits of scientists from the university who have won either a Nobel Prize or the Lasker Award, a major medical prize.

#7 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-08-28 10:55 AM | Reply

Prof urges math teachers to adopt 'social justice pedagogies'

Jun 19, 2018 - Traditional mathematics education, he complains, "is not sufficient and does not address many issues" necessary to "critical mathematics.".
www.campusreform.org

"Critical mathematics" lol

#8 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-08-28 10:57 AM | Reply

@#7 ... She was referring to a wall covered with portraits of scientists from the university who have won either a Nobel Prize or the Lasker Award, a major medical prize. ...

You seem to be so focused upon the Maddow-bashing aspect of this, the ...everything is white male is political.... aspect of this, that you overlook the main reason why those pictures are all men.

It was only relatively recently that the science and engineering fields of study became universally co-ed.

When I went to high school and college, both of those schools were male-only.

#9 | Posted by LampLighter at 2019-08-28 11:06 AM | Reply

@#4 ... Should we just get rid of the Nobel prize? ...

Why do that?

The Nobel Prize has been awarded to many women in the science area.

For starters, ever hear of Marie Curie?

The lack of women on that wall is more likely localized to that college, probably for the reason I mentioned above.


#10 | Posted by LampLighter at 2019-08-28 11:10 AM | Reply

Here's an explanation:

Men and women are different. Men and women have certain traits that are inherent to their sex.

How many women play in the NFL?

Which sex is over-represented in the vetrinary field?

Etc, etc.

Everything is not always discrimination and race/sex/_______ quotas don't work and are unjust.

#11 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-28 11:12 AM | Reply

Sadly, the Nobel Peace Prize has become a joke.

I wouldn't say that about the other Nobel prizes though.

#12 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-28 11:15 AM | Reply

" The lack of women in science and mathematics is largely a matter of personal preference, not discrimination, according to a psychology professor.

Dr. Lee Jussim says he does not deny that discrimination exists, but observes that women with strong math and science skills also tend to have strong verbal skills, giving them a wider range of career options than men."

www.campusreform.org

#13 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-08-28 11:19 AM | Reply

Yes, it is a valid question.
Why are those images up there?

#5 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER

I suspect because hanging them from the ceiling or just laying them on the floor made less sense. Quit being obtuse.

#14 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2019-08-28 11:27 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Quit being obtuse.

#14 | POSTED BY MUSTANG

Take your own advice.

I can't help but notice that those speaking the most frequently and confidently on this thread don't have a lick of experience in a scientific field.

The upper echelons are notoriously male heavy and the women who get there aren't treated as equals nor do they have the same rates of advancement from to the upper echelons.

To Maddow's point, yes the Nobel Prize list is extremely male dominated and yes it was because of systemic problems, but that's being changed and won't change overnight.

#15 | Posted by jpw at 2019-08-28 11:45 AM | Reply

Math prof who argues against truths and knowledge' to host Carleton College convocation

"Drawing upon Indigenous worldviews to reconceptualize what mathematics is and how it is practiced, I argue for a movement against objects, truths, and knowledge towards a way of being in the world that is guided by first principles"mathematx."

www.thecollegefix.com

Yeah. That ought to improve math scores. Introduce "indigenous worldviews" to teach "mathematx." The Idiocracy is coming, if not already here.

#16 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-08-28 11:53 AM | Reply

It's true. The walls have pictures of people who won awards.

That's unfair. There should be portraits of people that didn't win awards.

Why are cemetery housing only to dead people! Damn segregationists.

#17 | Posted by Petrous at 2019-08-28 11:55 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"What is up with the dude wall?"

Maddow was overheard saying: www.whitehousehistory.org

#18 | Posted by Petrous at 2019-08-28 11:58 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#15 Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

#19 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2019-08-28 12:14 PM | Reply

#19 be an idiot give an idiotic answer.

You were being textbook obtuse yet accused lamp of being the obtuse one.

#20 | Posted by jpw at 2019-08-28 01:00 PM | Reply

I can't help but notice that those speaking the most frequently and confidently on this thread don't have a lick of experience in a scientific field.
The upper echelons are notoriously male heavy and the women who get there aren't treated as equals nor do they have the same rates of advancement from to the upper echelons....

#15 | POSTED BY JPW

Is this something you've just observed at your place of employment or is it an unspoken truth within the entire field?

#21 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-28 01:04 PM | Reply

#21 That's a genuine question. I am not being snarky.

#22 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-28 01:08 PM | Reply

It's a known problem in the hard sciences.

There's initiatives to push towards resolutions but it's an entrenched problem with those likely to be affected by it being largely in control of the changes.

When I'm not on my phone I can look up some recent pieces and stories about this topic.

#23 | Posted by jpw at 2019-08-28 01:11 PM | Reply

But I can say it's something I've observed at my own place of employment. I won't give details over the forum because it'll likely give too much information about where I work.

#24 | Posted by jpw at 2019-08-28 01:12 PM | Reply

#23 Thanks for answering.

#24 I completely understand.

#25 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-28 01:22 PM | Reply

If it's recognition they want, maybe they could do a Women in Science swimsuit calendar.

...or a recipe book.

#26 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-08-28 01:23 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

I can't help but notice that those speaking the most frequently and confidently on this thread don't have a lick of experience in a scientific field.
The upper echelons are notoriously male heavy and the women who get there aren't treated as equals nor do they have the same rates of advancement from to the upper echelons....
#15 | POSTED BY JPW

So you are saying NOBEL award are political, that politics dominates the field? That if you don't say the right thing, think the right thing you are ostracized?

Or do you really think its ONLY identity politics scientist play?

Its exactly the opposite of what you claim in GW discussions, that is "purely" science, but here its political, on this topic science is a sexist machine.

I can't help but notice your hypocrisy and wanting it both ways.

These men earned Nobel prizes, that is pretty special, which is more than 99.9% of the graduates of the university ...

I spent time in the scientific community, I saw enough to know they study highly specialized topics, in nuances, that they really know nothing about the real world, they think their brilliance in one domain makes the experts everywhere. I know its political, I also know women earn their PhD's by the time they are 32yo, then they realize they would like children, and that kills their chances in a highly competitive field. Some choose science, and regret it, others go on and have good careers, some go on and win Nobel Prizes.
en.wikipedia.org

#27 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-08-28 01:53 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

So you are saying NOBEL award are political, that politics dominates the field? That if you don't say the right thing, think the right thing you are ostracized?

No, and since I see the straw peeking out from the bottom of your posts jeans I'm not going to bother reading the rest of it.

The point is that it's a wall o' men because it's been dominated by men for the vast majority of its existence.

That getting funding to do big work is easier if you're male.

None of that changes the fact that the prizes were awarded for ground breaking, important work.

#28 | Posted by jpw at 2019-08-28 03:22 PM | Reply

"Everything is not always discrimination"

Nice job setting the bar impossibly high.

Nobody said everything is always discrimination, but it sure is easy to argue against!

In 200+ years we've never had a woman President.

Is no part of that due to discrimination, some part due to discrimination, or is everything about it due to discrimination?

#29 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-28 03:50 PM | Reply

- In 200+ years we've never had a woman President.

There are many things females have never done. There are many things men haven't done.

It has nothing to do with discrimination, until someone discriminates against another person. Meaning it can and does happen by individuals in isolated incidences. There will always be individuals who are racist, bigoted, or just hate people who are different from them - it's a human condition seen globally. Systematic institutional racism, however, is by and large a relic from the past.

Joe Biden's past.

#30 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-08-28 04:28 PM | Reply

"Systematic institutional racism, however, is by and large a relic from the past."

Citation needed.

#31 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-28 04:30 PM | Reply

It's like saying "The Electoral College is by and large a relic from the past."

It's true.
Also true?
The Electoral College remains in full force today.

Just because something is a relic from the past, doesn't mean it isn't alive and kicking today.
Glad I could clear that up for the thread.

#32 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-28 04:33 PM | Reply

- Just because something is a relic from the past, doesn't mean it isn't alive and kicking today.

You're not even a relic, and yet you keep racism alive and kicking.

#33 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-08-28 04:39 PM | Reply

I don't keep racism alive and kicking.

All I do, without even trying, is stimulate your involuntarily knee-jerk denial reflex.

#34 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-28 04:42 PM | Reply

The definition of marriage as "one man and one woman" is by and large a relic from the past.

Anyone even heard of any one man, one woman marriages these days???

#35 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-28 04:50 PM | Reply

I've always thought 'dude walls' were obnoxious, albeit not be design. When you have a staff or faculty consisting of people of every race and gender and ethnicity, it is obnoxious to just have a wall full of white guys. It pretty clearly indicates that most of the people who get to decide who goes up on the wall is also a white guy. Bank on it.

#36 | Posted by moder8 at 2019-08-28 05:05 PM | Reply

A clever way to un-dude the wall is put up pictures of dudes with their wives.

#37 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-28 05:07 PM | Reply

My son's high school is filled with dude walls. All sorts of pictures of impactful athletes and various teams over the school's 90 year history. Not a single picture of a chick to be found.

#38 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-28 06:32 PM | Reply

#38 Oh, I forgot to mention, he goes to an all-boys private school.

#39 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-28 06:33 PM | Reply

Jeff,

Here are a few of the stories I remember reading in recent times of sexual issues and toxic work environments in general in science.

Salk Institute scandal

www.latimes.com

www.sciencemag.org

University of Washington firing a prestigious professor

www.buzzfeednews.com

Head of Evolutionary "Ancient" DNA lab suspended

www.sciencemag.org

This schitt show

www.theguardian.com

And, as I mentioned, things I've personally witnessed.

I think as younger scientists move into higher positions the sexual discrimination aspect is improving. But the generalized schitty environment for trainees isn't really improving too much.

#40 | Posted by jpw at 2019-08-28 11:26 PM | Reply

#40 | POSTED BY JPW

Dang, man.

That was WAY more info and effort than I was expecting. I was content with your word on this because it's in your wheelhouse and you haven't been prone to embellishment, much less lying and this isn't something that you'd have an interest in obfuscating anyway.

You went through the effort to provide all of those links.

Bear with me as I take the time to wade through them...

#41 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-28 11:32 PM | Reply

A guy in my lab in grad school had to be told not to say or do certain things to womem in the lab.

It's a real problem.

Hell, the head of a program at my school cherry-picks the cutest girls each year and offers them a place in his lab.

#42 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-28 11:35 PM | Reply

I think the difference between the scientific commumity and industry is it's a little bit easier to shine a light on this within the realm of science. There is no scientific formula which states "boys will be boys." In science, evidence can't be dismissed just because it's awkward or bad for business, like ExxonMobil did with their own findings on global warming.

#43 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-28 11:42 PM | Reply

#40 | POSTED BY JPW

Your links probably wouldn't be proof beyond reasonable doubt, by any stretch. But that wasn't what I asked for. Your links painted a picture of what you described based upon what you've personally witnessed.

Thanks for sharing - you didn't need to provide all of that.

#44 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-28 11:43 PM | Reply

I think the difference between the scientific commumity and industry is it's a little bit easier to shine a light on this within the realm of science. There is no scientific formula which states "boys will be boys." In science, evidence can't be dismissed just because it's awkward or bad for business, like ExxonMobil did with their own findings on global warming.

#43 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

On a purely logical standpoint I agree, but man that has NOT been what I've witnessed and experienced within the various corporate cultures I've worked in, especially the current one.

#45 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-28 11:45 PM | Reply

Can I get a non-witness, JeffJ?

#46 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-28 11:47 PM | Reply

#46

Sure. Name your non-witness.

#47 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-28 11:51 PM | Reply

You.

"that has NOT been what I've witnessed"

#48 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-28 11:52 PM | Reply

So, you quote me directly and ask for a non-witness.

I ask for you to provide a non-witness in response and you cite - me?

We are not understanding each other.

#49 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-28 11:56 PM | Reply

Saying what you didn't witness isn't saying much.

#50 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-28 11:58 PM | Reply

I remember one job, this guy I was working showed me a really old meme from before we called them memes, a picture of a fat chick in a bathing suit with a caption "Save The Whales."

I told him that is not appropriate for work, since work was a client site at a Fortune 500 company that is not named Sicromoft.

That kind of stuff never happens to you, JeffJ?

#51 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-29 12:03 AM | Reply

Has anyone saved the whales yet?

#52 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-08-29 12:09 AM | Reply

Save the whales! In this day and age that is funny. I'll answer your question in a moment (because it's a fair question)...

That kind of stuff never happens to you, JeffJ?

#51 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

I'm 48 years old and have been in various work settings since graduating college at the age of 22.

I've seen and heard a lot and I am pretty far from naive.

Again, this is solipsistic, but what I've seen is a general trend-line in a positive direction.

Even way back in the '90's, fest out of college, the big company I worked for required us to sit through sexual harassment seminars. That was where I was first exposed to the logic that simply complimenting a female co-worker on her hair our attire "Did you just get your hair styled?" could be construed as harassment, no matter the intent.

#53 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-08-29 12:14 AM | Reply

- I told him that is not appropriate for work

LOL. You're the guy in the corporate training videos.

#54 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-08-29 12:16 AM | Reply

"Again, this is solipsistic, but what I've seen is a general trend-line in a positive direction."

Slope?
Error bars?

You're not as solipsistic as I wish you could be, I'm afraid.

#55 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-29 12:17 AM | Reply

You went through the effort to provide all of those links.

Bear with me as I take the time to wade through them...

#41 | Posted by JeffJ

It really wasn't any trouble.

I remember all the stories and it took a 30 sec Google search to find the links.

The stories are becoming well publicized in scientific magazines such as Science Mag and even Nature itself, not to mention the general press.

#56 | Posted by jpw at 2019-08-29 12:18 AM | Reply

"LOL. You're the guy in the corporate training videos."

I watched one of those where the guy put up a picture on the wall in the break room, and they blurred it out in the video.

#57 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-08-29 12:18 AM | Reply

Even way back in the '90's
#53 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

I have to agree with Jeff here. I've worked for large corp's my whole career. Sexual harassment and diversity training have been an integral cornerstone everywhere I've been. The rules and boundries are clearly spelled out. I've seen nothing but compliance overall. There has always been the exception, who was dealt with swiftly.

It always seems to be someone in sales and marketing, or a senior manager.

#58 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-08-29 12:26 AM | Reply

#53 | Posted by JeffJ

I'd love to see a parody video on sexual harassment training videos. Featuring, say, a guy who just can't help making sexual remarks as an example of what NOT to say, featuring a panel of 2 men, 2 women:

Trainer: "Jim, tell us a little about yourself."

Jim: "Well, I'm currently unemployed and undergoing intense therapy to rid myself of making sexual comments to female co-workers."

Trainer: "That's great to hear."

Jim: (looks at woman seated next to him): "Man, I'd love to crawl up THAT skirt!"

Trainer: "Now, Jim, please don't do that!"

Jim: "Hey, I'm sick. I need help"

Woman uncrosses and recrosses her legs

Jim: "Damn, that looks like one nice ***bleeped out*** under those panties."

Trainer: "JIM! I warned you!"

Jim: "Hey, I'm sick. I need help"

This goes on for 20 minutes.

#59 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-08-29 12:29 AM | Reply

No women signed the Declaration of Independence, it should be pulled from display. Triggering and not inclusive.

#60 | Posted by visitor_ at 2019-08-29 07:50 PM | Reply

No women Popes! Tear them limb from limb!

#61 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-08-29 07:54 PM | Reply

People who have an issue with the "Dude wall" should be encouraging and supporting women in STEM. Contribute to or set up scholarships for women. If you have a talk show, talk about it.

I want to see a level playing field (most of us do, at least the younger generation), but let's elevate women and not bring down men (metaphorically or as portraits!)

#62 | Posted by horstngraben at 2019-08-30 09:59 AM | Reply

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