Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, September 10, 2019

AsGOP fearmongeringabout the so-calledlooming socialist menacecontinues to intensify ahead of the 2020 elections, President Donald Trump has reportedly expressed concern behind the scenes that anti-socialist messaging may not be as popular or effective asRepublican strategists appear to believe.

The campaign of Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), the only 2020 Democratic presidential candidate running as a democratic socialist, said the president's private fears show he's concerned about being attacked as a phony populist whose policies havedisproportionately benefited the wealthiest Americans.

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America is the richest country in the world and yet half the population is poor.

80 percent of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, and half of all Americans cannot afford an unexpected $400 emergency expense.

How do America's power elite change Bernie's Democratic-Socialist message?

How about stop being so --------- greedy and stop squeezing the hell out of the economic livelihoods of working and middle-class Americans.

And, if the Democratic Establishment and DNC cannot make political hay out of this situation and fully back presidential candidates like Bernie Sanders, the Democrats deserve to lose.

America wouldn't be having the "capitalism vs socialism" conversation if the political elites had stood up to corporate power ...

Who Stole The American Dream?
youtu.be
[1:27:43]

#1 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-10 10:11 AM | Reply

--running against socialism' in a general election may not be so easy' because of its populist draw."

During a recent private donor event, according to The Daily Beast, Trump warned if Democrats run on canceling student loan debt, for instance, "that's a tough one" to campaign against.

Sounds right. Canceling student loan debt is one of the most expensive vote buying programs ever proposed. Of course students and anyone with a lot of debt will vote for that.

That's the Democrat "get out the youth vote" plan, along with "free" college.

#2 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-10 10:12 AM | Reply

I want candidates to be asked in a debate to prioritize their to do list once they get into office. What are they going to tackle first, second, third? Student loan debt, M4A, immigration, free college for everyone, increased pay for teachers, childcare assistance for working families and so on? No president gets to do everything on their to do list in their first term, even if they also control both houses of Congress. I also want candidates to be asked how they will pay for the various plans, not just individually but collectively. IOW, what are their top priorities once they are in office and how are they going to pay for those top priorities? Will raising taxes on the wealthy pay for all or most of their priorities? If so, great, but let's see the numbers.

#3 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-09-10 10:29 AM | Reply

The rich are deathly afraid of any social program that does not benefit them exclusively.

That's why they want to kill Medicare, Affordable Care Act and Social Security. They believe only the wealthy have a right to health care or retirement.

"Wolf Blitzer put a terrific question to Rep. Ron Paul at last night's CNN/Tea Party Express Republican debate in Tampa, Fla. What should happen, the moderator asked hypothetically, if a healthy 30-year-old man who can afford insurance chooses not to buy it"and then becomes catastrophically ill and needs intensive care for six months? When Dr. Paul ducked, fondly recalling the good old days before Medicare and saying that we should all take responsibility for ourselves, Blitzer pressed the point. "But, Congressman, are you saying the society should just let him die?" At that point, the rabble erupted in cheers and whoops of "Yeah!" "

#4 | Posted by Nixon at 2019-09-10 10:34 AM | Reply

"That's the Democrat "get out the youth vote" plan, along with "free" college."

it's a 100% total lie. There is no way we are doing either of those things. It's politically unrealistic even if you believe you have a funding mechanism.

medicare for all has a better chance, IMO.

#5 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-10 10:34 AM | Reply

-The rich are deathly afraid of any social program that does not benefit them exclusively.

not any...but some.

food stamps? welfare? they aren't "deathly afraid" of those programs. they've been paying taxes to fund them for generations. Same goes for Medicare, SS, etc. They don't want to kill those things. A few pols have trotted out plans to "reform" them and in order to oppose it, it gets reported that they want to kill those programs.

they don't want to kill them and they know it wouldn't happen anyway. It's campaign fodder to rally the base.

When you write crap like that, it becomes obvious you don't understand the wealthy nor their priorities.

#6 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-10 10:39 AM | Reply

--When you write crap like that, it becomes obvious you don't understand the wealthy nor their priorities.

Same old hysterical lies from Dumb_Nixon.

#7 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-10 10:43 AM | Reply

I also want candidates to be asked how they will pay for the various plans, not just individually but collectively.

#3 | POSTED BYGAL_TUESDAY

It's paid for by redirecting money from the various programs that don't directly make ordinary Americans lives better.

And free college has downstream healthcare savings per healthcare/social determinants of health disciplines, namely population health management.

Insisting on detailed answers just plays into the hands of those with a monetary incentive to muddy the waters and keep the status quo.

#8 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-10 10:45 AM | Reply

-It's paid for by redirecting money from the various programs that don't directly make ordinary Americans lives better.

You mean cut something else that, in your opinion, don't make ordinary American lives better?

good luck selling that.

#9 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-10 10:48 AM | Reply

--Student loan debt, M4A, immigration, free college for everyone, increased pay for teachers, childcare assistance for working families and so on?

"So on" including a $16 trillion New Green Scheme. And all this can be paid for easily by taxing the "1 percent."

Democrat Math (TM)

#10 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-10 10:49 AM | Reply

"Insisting on detailed answers just plays into the hands of those with a monetary incentive to muddy the waters and keep the status quo."

Hogwash. If more people had insisted on detailed answers from candidate Trump instead of allowing his rhetorical rally riffs to go unquestioned, he might not be president today. But then again, he might because promises like hearts are meant to be broken.

#11 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-09-10 10:50 AM | Reply

#10 Oh gosh, I forgot about climate change plans.

#12 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-09-10 10:51 AM | Reply

11

I agree. Candidates don't want to get into the weeds on policy because they have to face the scrutiny that would come eventually.

It's tough to run for office. Bernie Sanders has some great ideas but some of them are completely unrealistic.

#13 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-10 10:55 AM | Reply

--#10 Oh gosh, I forgot about climate change plans.

So has everyone else. The "climate emergency" apparently has been cancelled or postponed due to low audience ratings.

#14 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-10 10:56 AM | Reply

#14

It's now in the same file as "Russian Collusion".

#15 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2019-09-10 11:03 AM | Reply

I also forgot about infrastructure spending. It seems to me that Job 1 for Dems is to raise taxes on the wealthy and then figure out what to do with the money that comes in. I'd still like them to list their priorities when it comes to programs and spending, however.

#16 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-09-10 11:19 AM | Reply

"It's paid for by redirecting money from the various programs that don't directly make ordinary Americans lives better."

If that's the case, then candidates should be able to provide concrete examples.

#17 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-09-10 11:25 AM | Reply

You mean cut something else that, in your opinion, don't make ordinary American lives better?

good luck selling that.

#9 | POSTED BYEBERLY

What do you call a system that has the richest country in the world rendering 80% of it's population living paycheck to paycheck? Some call that a banana republic or even a failed state.

Bernie's politics (healthcare, college, clean water, infrastructure, etc.) should easily be mainstream as they are in Europe.

And in any other healthy political environment EVERY Democrat should be like Bernie, and THEN there should be people to Bernie's left advocating things like worker co-opts and actual socialism ...

But in only in capitalist-nightmare-America are the universally accepted politics that Bernie advocates for are marginalized.

Again, the Fox News Townhall in FREAKING West Virginia applauded the Democratic-Socialist, Bernie Sanders -- and it's on video.

#18 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-10 11:36 AM | Reply

If that's the case, then candidates should be able to provide concrete examples.

#17 | POSTED BYGAL_TUESDAY

Bernie does, and they can easily be found.

Just remember while you're researching that ...

concrete examples ARE NEVER given justifying policies that created an American system where the country is the richest in the world while rendering half the population poor.

#19 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-10 11:41 AM | Reply

What do you call a system that has the richest country in the world rendering 80% of it's population living paycheck to paycheck? Some call that a banana republic or even a failed state.

Repeating this over and over doesn't make it true.

Bernie's politics (healthcare, college, clean water, infrastructure, etc.) should easily be mainstream as they are in Europe.

And then just as easily you can see Europe is disintegrating.

But in only in capitalist-nightmare-America are the universally accepted politics that Bernie advocates for are marginalized.

It can't be that bad, hundreds of thousands attempt to get into this "nightmare" illegally.

Again, the Fox News Townhall in FREAKING West Virginia applauded the Democratic-Socialist, Bernie Sanders -- and it's on video.

Showing yet again how fair and balanced Fox is.

#20 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-10 11:46 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

That's the Democrat "get out the youth vote" plan, along with "free" college.

#2 | POSTED BYNULLIFIDIAN

In any other healthy political environment EVERY Democrat should be like Bernie, and THEN there should be people to Bernie's left advocating things like worker co-opts and actual socialism.

#21 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-10 11:48 AM | Reply

"Repeating this over and over doesn't make it true. "

And claiming it's a lie doesn't make it untrue. But, as usual, you're either clueless or a shameless liar:
www.cnbc.com

#22 | Posted by Danforth at 2019-09-10 11:50 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

That's the Democrat "get out the youth vote" plan, along with "free" college.

When Germany abolished tuition at its public undergraduate schools, was that a vote-buying scheme too? Or are you only that cynical about American efforts to help people?

#23 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-10 11:50 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Bernie does, and they can easily be found.
Just remember while you're researching that ... "

If you've got the links, why not provide them?

#24 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-09-10 11:53 AM | Reply

If you've got the links, why not provide them?

#24 | POSTED BYGAL_TUESDAY

Why are you incapable of doing Google searches?

Try first going to Bernie's website, that is if doing so doesn't make your skin crawl.

#25 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-10 12:00 PM | Reply

"It's paid for by redirecting money from the various programs that don't directly make ordinary Americans lives better."

I didn't find any info in that regard, but I did find this on how Bernie wants to pay for college related programs:

When Bernie is in the White House, he will:

Pass the College for All Act to provide at least $48 billion per year to eliminate tuition and fees at four-year public colleges and universities, tribal colleges, community colleges, trade schools, and apprenticeship programs. Everyone deserves the right to a good higher education if they choose to pursue it, no matter their income.

Cancel All Existing Student Debt

Today in our country, 45 million people hold some $1.6 trillion in student debt. The average college student in the U.S. graduates with close to $30,000 in student loans and one in six college students will be stuck with over $50,000 in student loan debt after graduation.

berniesanders.com

And this is how he plans to pay for it:

Tax Wall Street Gambling to Cancel All Student Debt and Pay for College for All

We can guarantee higher education as a right for all and cancel all student debt for an estimated $2.2 trillion. To pay for this, we will impose a tax of a fraction of a percent on Wall Street speculators who nearly destroyed the economy a decade ago. This Wall Street speculation tax will raise $2.4 trillion over the next ten years. It works by placing a 0.5 percent tax on stock trades " 50 cents on every $100 of stock " a 0.1 percent fee on bond trades, and a 0.005 percent fee on derivative trades.

#26 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-09-10 12:03 PM | Reply

--Try first going to Bernie's website, that is if doing so doesn't make your skin crawl.

I've done that several times. Nothing but glittering generalities with no details on how to pay for his tens of trillions of new spending.

#27 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-10 12:04 PM | Reply

"Why are you incapable of doing Google searches?"

I did Google, but couldn't find that particular info.

"Try first going to Bernie's website, that is if doing so doesn't make your skin crawl."

I was literally at Bernie's website when you typed that. Too bad it's easier for you to insult me than to simply answer my questions. It's not a good look and does nothing to promote Bernie's cause, but, hey, you do you.

#28 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-09-10 12:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Nothing but glittering generalities with no details on how to pay for his tens of trillions of new spending.

#27 | POSTED BYNULLIFIDIAN

Just like no details for paying for America's wars ...

And just like no details for justifying all the pro-business and pro-corporate policies that created an American system where we're the richest country in the world and yet half the population is poor.

#29 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-10 12:11 PM | Reply

Besides, this isn't just about Bernie. I don't have time to research every single one of the Democratic candidates, which is why I said:

I want candidates to be asked in a debate to prioritize their to do list once they get into office. What are they going to tackle first, second, third? Student loan debt, M4A, immigration, free college for everyone, increased pay for teachers, childcare assistance for working families and so on? No president gets to do everything on their to do list in their first term, even if they also control both houses of Congress. I also want candidates to be asked how they will pay for the various plans, not just individually but collectively. IOW, what are their top priorities once they are in office and how are they going to pay for those top priorities? Will raising taxes on the wealthy pay for all or most of their priorities? If so, great, but let's see the numbers.
#3 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-09-10 10:29 AM | Reply | Flag:

#30 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-09-10 12:12 PM | Reply

Too bad it's easier for you to insult me than to simply answer my questions. It's not a good look and does nothing to promote Bernie's cause, but, hey, you do you.

#28 | POSTED BYGAL_TUESDAY

How long have you been posting on this website?

If you've been posting here for any length of time, then you shouldn't be asking insincere questions.

I was in the military 20 years, remember? This is how I've been trained to get things done.

You're welcome.

#31 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-10 12:16 PM | Reply

Nothing but glittering generalities with no details on how to pay for his tens of trillions of new spending.

If he told you Mexico would pay for Medicare for All would that satisfy you?

#32 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-10 12:22 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 2

How long have you been posting on this website?
If you've been posting here for any length of time, then you shouldn't be asking insincere questions.
I was in the military 20 years, remember? This is how I've been trained to get things done.
You're welcome.

I've been posting here since near the inception of the site. My question was not insincere. Thank you for your service. My point still stands: Your approach "does nothing to promote Bernie's cause." You're welcome.

#33 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-09-10 12:25 PM | Reply

Just like no details for paying for America's wars ...

One of the few things I would never expect when we goto war, is how are we going to pay for it.

That being said, I haven't seen a "war" we should have entered after WWII.

But we have been paying to support the finest military in the world for 70 years now.

#34 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-10 12:26 PM | Reply

It's not a good look and does nothing to promote Bernie's cause, but, hey, you do you.

Its a BernieBro's goto move.

#35 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-10 12:27 PM | Reply

--If he told you Mexico would pay for Medicare for All would that satisfy you?

I'd be satisfied if you admitted you are a ridiculous, deflecting idiot.

#36 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-10 12:28 PM | Reply

Deflecting? I'm asking what level of detail you require on a politician's plan to pay for something.

#37 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-10 12:31 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"What do you call a system that has the richest country in the world rendering 80% of it's population living paycheck to paycheck? Some call that a banana republic or even a failed state."

What do YOU call it?

Do you think we're a banana republic or a failed state?

If not, then what?

#38 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-10 12:44 PM | Reply

"I was in the military 20 years, remember? This is how I've been trained to get things done."

What things are you getting done?

#39 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-10 12:46 PM | Reply

-Your approach "does nothing to promote Bernie's cause

Exactly

"Would someone please shut PinchALoaf up? He's not helping me"

-Bernie Sanders

#40 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-10 12:48 PM | Reply

--If he told you Mexico would pay for Medicare for All would that satisfy you?

I'd be satisfied if you admitted you are a ridiculous, deflecting idiot.

#36 | POSTED BYNULLIFIDIAN

In the context of America's vast wealth, Joe's glib-sounding answer is more than legit.

#41 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-10 01:13 PM | Reply

What things are you getting done?

#39 | POSTED BYEBERLY

Saving the world, Pops.

#42 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-10 01:16 PM | Reply

"Would someone please shut PinchALoaf up? He's not helping me"

#40 | POSTED BYEBERLY

"Would someone please put every American convenience onto a silver platter for me? I'm not to expend 1-caloric energy unit, ever."

-- every fat assed lazy American

#43 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-10 01:21 PM | Reply

"Would someone please put every American convenience onto a silver platter for me? I'm not to expend 1-caloric energy unit, ever."
-- every fat assed lazy American

Are these the same Americans who you want to vote for M4A, free college, college and medical debt forgiveness? If so, it's probably not a good idea to call them fat and lazy.

#44 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-09-10 01:27 PM | Reply

Are these the same Americans who you want to vote for M4A, free college, college and medical debt forgiveness? If so, it's probably not a good idea to call them fat and lazy.

#44 | POSTED BYGAL_TUESDAY

Follow closely ...

The people at the Fox News Townhall are from West Virginia.

Why did they applaud Bernie's answers?

It's because they're working their asses off in multiple jobs just to make ends meet -- and only Bernie speaks to their needs.

These same West Virginians hear in the media, and by practically every politician that the economy is doing as great ever.

Do you see the disconnect there?

So when myopic overfed well-to-do people dismiss Bernie Sanders, they're the ones who deserve the ridicule and scorn.

#45 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-10 01:53 PM | Reply

Nobody has done more to promote socialism than djt and his spawn

#46 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2019-09-10 02:03 PM | Reply

#45 I remember that townhall from when it happened. Good on, Bernie. That still doesn't justify you insulting people in his name and labelling everyone who asks questions as being "a fat assed lazy American." It also doesn't justify your assuming all those who don't support him are "myopic overfed well-to-do people".

#47 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2019-09-10 02:07 PM | Reply

"So when myopic overfed well-to-do people dismiss Bernie Sanders, they're the ones who deserve the ridicule and scorn."

Hurting the people who need to be hurt.
It's not just for Trumpers any more!
Congratulations, you built that.

#48 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-10 02:08 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

food stamps? welfare? they aren't "deathly afraid" of those programs. they've been paying taxes to fund them for generations

Yeah, afraid is not the right word.

Resentment would be better.

They resent having to pay taxes to fund programs that benefit anyone but themselves.

You need look no further than at the hatred pushed by some of our own right here at the school lunch program.

#49 | Posted by Nixon at 2019-09-10 02:22 PM | Reply

Deflecting? I'm asking what level of detail you require on a politician's plan to pay for something.

#37 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-10 12:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

I wonder if Fat Nixon's "The tax cuts will pay for themselves" level of detail is sufficient.

#50 | Posted by Nixon at 2019-09-10 02:25 PM | Reply

Here's Bernie explaining at the Fox News Townhall to a cheering crowd on how Medicare-for-All is paid for ...

Debunking Medicare-for-All Smear & UVA Healthcare Debacle
drudge.com

#51 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-10 09:18 PM | Reply

What do YOU call it?

Do you think we're a banana republic or a failed state?

If not, then what?

#38 | POSTED BY EBERLY

I call it outrageous.

Richest country in the world and yet half the population is poor -- that's outrageous.

#52 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-10 09:58 PM | Reply

"Richest country in the world and yet half the population is poor -- that's outrageous.
#52 | POSTED BY PINCHALOAF "

And it's even more outrageous that not even do we give our money to non-citizens, we give it to illegal non-citizens.

#53 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-10 10:07 PM | Reply

That's actually a lot less outrageous than an economy that's left 4 in 5 households behind for over 40 years now.

In terms of numbers, it's like 12 million people vs like 240 million people.

It's a lot more outrages that 240 million citizens are barely keeping their head above water, than 1/20th that number of foreigners also barely keeping their heads above water get the same kind of assistance those 240 million citizens get.

#54 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-10 10:38 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

3 reasons why socialism is gaining popularity in America
theweek.com

Did you know there are socialists in the Midwest?

Americans are used to the country's vast rural hinterlands being depicted as Trump Territory " and variants on socialism attributed to East Coast intellectuals and pointy-headed Vermonters.

But the socialist movement has deep historical roots in "flyover country": In the early 20th century, the tiny town of Girard, Kansas was a hub of American socialism, as was Madison, Wisconsin. These days, as The Atlantic outlines, a growing number of young adults in Iowa are at the forefront of the movement.

It's difficult to discuss socialism these days without acknowledging that its definition varies depending on who you're asking.

For Republicans, socialism is often an all-purpose slur used to describe relatively mild ideas like progressive taxation and Medicare, while the rest of the country can use it as a catch-all term for a whole spectrum of ideas and approaches left of "expanding the safety net a little bit."

Labeling an idea "democratic socialism" offers a bit more clarity, but only barely.

But socialists, self-described or otherwise, do seem to agree on one thing, as 27-year-old Iowan Casey Erixon told The Atlantic:

"There is a growing sense that the system is broken."

President Trump, meanwhile, started 2019 with a declaration at the State of the Union that "we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country."

Whether that remains true, though, depends in part on the health of capitalism " and the health of the middle class in this capitalist country. The question, then, is whether or not capitalism seems to be improving American lives. If so, it'll remain dominant. If not, alternatives will look increasingly attractive.

Here are three pieces of evidence that the capitalist system in America is, indeed, broken:

1. Leaders are paving the way for a second massive economic crisis within a generation.

2. It is becoming more and more difficult for the average American to live life sustainably.

3. The party of capitalism put Donald Trump in the White House.


America is the richest country in the world and yet half the population is poor. 80 percent of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, and half of all Americans cannot afford an unexpected $400 emergency expense.

Yeah, American capitalism is broken.

#55 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 07:49 AM | Reply

As GOP fear mongering about the so-called looming socialist menace continues to intensify ahead of the 2020 elections, President Donald Trump has reportedly expressed concern behind the scenes that anti-socialist messaging may not be as popular or effective as Republican strategists appear to believe.

Here is why Trump is afraid to run against Socialism ...

Socialism Is More Popular Than Donald Trump
www.thenation.com

Donald Trump has spent much of this year campaigning against socialism. The president opened his campaign with a rambling February 5 State of the Union address, in which he declared, "Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country." A month later, in March, Trump appeared with Jair Bolsonaro, the right-wing strongman who recently became Brazil's president, and announced that "The twilight hour of socialism has arrived."

That was wishful thinking on the president's part.

The numbers are in. The president is down. Socialism is up.

"Trump Approval Edges Down to 42%," read the headline from a May 17 Gallup review of its latest polling on the president's appeal.

Three days later, Gallup reported that "43% of Americans say socialism would be a good thing for the country."

What's even more striking are the measures of who likes socialism ... Socialism is especially popular with young people. Among the Americans aged 18"34 who were surveyed by Gallup, 58 percent say it's good for the country.

The polls tell us that a good deal of socialism's appeal has to do with a sense that capitalism isn't working, and DSA addresses this sentiment.

"Democratic socialism fights inequality by giving power back to the workers through unions and true representation. It overcomes alienation and inequality by strengthening civil rights and building solidarity among the many," the group argues.

"No system is perfect, but the one we live in now is needlessly cruel and unfair"and millions want something new, something better."


America is the richest country in the world and yet half the population is poor. 80 percent of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, and half of all Americans cannot afford an unexpected $400 emergency expense.

Yeah, American capitalism is broken.

#56 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 08:01 AM | Reply

Trump is not afraid of running against socialism.

The information is either incorrect or you're being baited.

Trump is praying the dems bring socialism with them to the election.

The DUMBEST thing the dems could do would be to make it easy for trump to hit them with SOCIALISM!! More than necessary

#57 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 08:12 AM | Reply

It's amazing what the extreme left convinces themselves of.

Socialism would be a good thing for the country? I don't care how it polls....it wont' work on election day.

It'll kill the democrats chances of winning.

The good news is that folks like snoofyloaf aren't in charge of anything

#58 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 08:38 AM | Reply

Trump is not afraid of running against socialism.

The information is either incorrect or you're being baited.

Trump is praying the dems bring socialism with them to the election.

The DUMBEST thing the dems could do would be to make it easy for trump to hit them with SOCIALISM!! More than necessary

#57 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Wrong

You really don't understand what's going on.

Here you go ...

America is ready for socialism!
www.salon.com

The following all received 70% support or more:

- Allow Government to Negotiate Drug Prices (79%)
- Give Students the Same Low Interest Rates as Big Banks (78%)
- Universal Pre-Kindergarten (77%)
- Fair Trade that Protect Workers, the Environment, and Jobs (75%)
- End Tax Loopholes for Corporations that Ship Jobs Overseas (74%)
- End Gerrymandering (73%)
- Let Homeowners Pay Down Mortgage With 401k (72%)
- Debt-Free College at All Public Universities (Message A) (71%)
- Infrastructure Jobs Program -- $400 Billion / Year (71%)
- Require NSA to Get Warrants (71%)
- Disclose Corporate Spending on Politics/Lobbying (71%)
- Medicare Buy-In for All (71%)
- Close Offshore Corporate Tax Loopholes (70%)
- Green New Deal -- Millions Of Clean-Energy Jobs (70%)
- Full Employment Act (70%)
- Expand Social Security Benefits (70%)


Trump's trade message is essentially the same as Bernie's -- it's the solution that differs between Trump and Bernie. Also, in 2016 Trump spoke to many of the above issues, notably Social Security, Medicare, and the aforementioned trade.

America is in it's SECOND Gilded Age -- the DUMBEST thing the Democrats and the DNC could do is NOT embrace the issues that are roiling the lives of working and middle-class Americans.

And, if you or anyone doesn't believe in all the inequality out in America, then you're fundamentally not understanding the appeal of politicians like Bernie Sanders and the appeal of Socialism to younger adults as explained in posts #55 and #56.

Bernie Sanders is just one person ... but so long as wealth inequality continues to rise, the ideas that people like Bernie advocates for will continue to be popular -- again, as explained in posts #55 and #56.

#59 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 08:42 AM | Reply

-You really don't understand what's going on.

really? you think because those items, individually, poll well that equates to a platform to run on that allows the republicans to call you a socialist?

There is a difference between something polling well and working at the voting booth.

You go ahead and believe what you want......but the democratic party won't take this seriously once they have a nominee.

#60 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 08:46 AM | Reply

It's amazing what the extreme left convinces themselves of.

Socialism would be a good thing for the country? I don't care how it polls....it wont' work on election day.

It'll kill the democrats chances of winning.

The good news is that folks like snoofyloaf aren't in charge of anything

#58 | POSTED BY EBERLY

You're not believing ordinary working and middle-class people are struggling.

See post #59 -- and, don't forget, Bernie Sanders was applauded multiple times in a Fox News Townhall in West FREAKING Virginia, so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I could fix America -- my military training, remember?

#61 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 08:46 AM | Reply

-You're not believing ordinary working and middle-class people are struggling.

I'm sure they are...but right now, you can't sell that...with economic numbers actually in Trump's favor.

-See post #59 -- and, don't forget, Bernie Sanders was applauded multiple times in a Fox News Townhall in West FREAKING Virginia, so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

so? Donald Trump has been applauded in places too.....is that evidence of something?

-I could fix America -- my military training, remember?

just stick to the toilets at the VA....because nobody else is going to hire you.

#62 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 09:17 AM | Reply

#62 | POSTED BYEBERLY

Good to see that you're FINALLY admitting how wrong your argument is.

Me, Bernie, and all working and middle-class Americans are glad to see you're on board with us.

#63 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 09:34 AM | Reply

63

what are you talking about?

what is my "wrong argument"?

#64 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 09:38 AM | Reply

I'm sure they are...but right now, you can't sell that...with economic numbers actually in Trump's favor.

There have been many columns/articles even on the DR about the disconnects between the numbers and the economic prospects and condition for average people.

You don't have to sell it, many look at the "hot economy" and wonder why it's not so hot for them.

#65 | Posted by jpw at 2019-09-11 09:54 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

65

You are indeed going to have to sell ideas and avoid being hit with "socialist" at the same time.

voters are fickle, short attention span, and well...just plain dumb.

they can be living in a trailer and still afraid of "socialism" even though any kind of socialism would probably help them.

those ideas that poll well....I have no doubts they poll well....but they don't sell votes.

NO democrat is going to defeat Trump running to the left.

#66 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 10:01 AM | Reply

You are indeed going to have to sell ideas and avoid being hit with "socialist" at the same time.

The problem with Republicans is that no matter who the Democratic nominee is, they're going to be attacked as a socialist. Joe Biden will be called a socialist. Bernie Sanders will be called a socialist.

If we're going to be called socialists either way, we might as well go all in and get some favorable leftwing policy out of the deal.

#67 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-11 10:04 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The problem with Republicans is that no matter who the Democratic nominee is, they're going to be attacked as a socialist. Joe Biden will be called a socialist. Bernie Sanders will be called a socialist.

If we're going to be called socialists either way, we might as well go all in and get some favorable leftwing policy out of the deal.

#67 | POSTED BY JOE

Exactly

And this goes back to my earlier point ...

Bernie's politics (healthcare, college, clean water, infrastructure, etc.) should easily be mainstream as they are in Europe.

In any other healthy political environment EVERY Democrat should be like Bernie, and THEN there should be people to Bernie's left advocating things like worker co-opts and actual socialism.

But in only in capitalist-nightmare-America are the universally accepted politics that Bernie advocates for are demonized.

#68 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 10:11 AM | Reply

NO democrat is going to defeat Trump running to the left.

#66 | POSTED BYEBERLY

Then how do you explain these popular "socialist" issues?

The following all received 70% support or more:

- Allow Government to Negotiate Drug Prices (79%)
- Give Students the Same Low Interest Rates as Big Banks (78%)
- Universal Pre-Kindergarten (77%)
- Fair Trade that Protect Workers, the Environment, and Jobs (75%)
- End Tax Loopholes for Corporations that Ship Jobs Overseas (74%)
- End Gerrymandering (73%)
- Let Homeowners Pay Down Mortgage With 401k (72%)
- Debt-Free College at All Public Universities (Message A) (71%)
- Infrastructure Jobs Program -- $400 Billion / Year (71%)
- Require NSA to Get Warrants (71%)
- Disclose Corporate Spending on Politics/Lobbying (71%)
- Medicare Buy-In for All (71%)
- Close Offshore Corporate Tax Loopholes (70%)
- Green New Deal -- Millions Of Clean-Energy Jobs (70%)
- Full Employment Act (70%)
- Expand Social Security Benefits (70%)


The Democrats WILL LOSE if they don't fully embrace and advocate for the above issues that have strong bipartisan majorities.

#69 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 10:19 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

what are you talking about?

what is my "wrong argument"?

#64 | POSTED BYEBERLY

When me and Bernie take over, I'll save you a spot in the new administration -- how does an Ambassadorship to Greenland sound?

#70 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 10:22 AM | Reply

#69 | POSTED BY PINCHALOAF

I'd argue that those are the result of bad/vague polling questions.

Take most of those issues and use the bully pulpit to try and make them a political reality and you will see support for most of those plummet.

If those are truly winning issues for Democrats you'll see them pushing hard for it in the General. With a couple of exceptions, all of those massively increase the size and scope of the federal government. That doesn't sell well with the public especially given our current deficits and total debt.

#71 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-11 10:26 AM | Reply

If those are truly winning issues for Democrats you'll see them pushing hard for it in the General.

With a couple of exceptions, all of those massively increase the size and scope of the federal government. That doesn't sell well with the public especially given our current deficits and total debt.

#71 | POSTED BYJEFFJ

The reason why you're wrong is because you're looking at it in the old traditional left/Democrat/liberal vs right/Republican/conservative POV.

What's roiling America's politics is actually a bottom/poor/working and middle-class vs top/rich/professional paradigm because of the extreme amount of wealth inequality.

This is what most everyone misses.

#72 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 10:32 AM | Reply

The Democrats WILL LOSE if they don't fully embrace and advocate for the above issues that have strong bipartisan majorities.

#69 | POSTED BY PINCHALOAF

Wrong.

There was a thread here about Trump's favorability polls not meshing with votes cast. This is easily in that same realm.

There's also the issues of marketing. Dems are horrible at it and the GOP so shameless they simply lie about things. See support of Obamacare vs the ACA as an example.

You're also pushing for a candidate who will win the popular vote but lose the EC with that strategy. I guarantee it.

#73 | Posted by jpw at 2019-09-11 10:38 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

67

Joe...you're partially correct....yes the republicans will label sanders a socialist.

but, historically, the GOP can't always get away with that.

usually, the republicans just try to label them "very liberal"...and that's good enough.

didn't work with Bill Clinton, or Obama, and I don't think it even worked with Hillary...she just had too much baggage. Any other dem (minus sanders) would have beaten trump, IMO.

IOW, I don't think the GOP will be able to label Biden a socialist. If they do....the dems are dead either way.

"Then how do you explain these popular "socialist" issues?"

I already did...they POLL well....but they won't work on election day.

I can get hundreds of issues to poll well....but not every issue is that important to folks.

You're making the mistake of assuming everything that polls well is just what politicians should take up as a policy to run with.

It.....doesn't.....work ......that ........way.

#74 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 10:42 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

73

exactly.

#75 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 10:43 AM | Reply

"When me and Bernie take over,"

you and bernie have no chance.

unless bernie runs pretty fast from most of those issues in a general....he's getting killed by trump.

#76 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 10:45 AM | Reply

Sanders will get labeled a Socialist because that is how he labels himself.

#77 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-11 10:45 AM | Reply

See support of Obamacare vs the ACA as an example.

That's a combination of partisanship and ignorance.

"Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act" sounds really nice as far as a label goes.

Rename Medicare Part D to W-Bushcare and it's polling will easily drop 10 points.

#78 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-11 10:47 AM | Reply

77

exactly....which is a very very very very dirty word.

usually, democrats try very hard to get away from the term "liberal"......they aren't able to run from "socialist" if the candidate himself embraces the label.

Seriously.....I want Trump OUT...but the adults in the democratic party aren't going to let this go past the primary.

Trump is NOT afraid of the dem running the left....he's hoping like hell they do.

he might not have to go after it as hard himself...but he won't have to. He'll have plenty of help doing that for him.

#79 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 10:48 AM | Reply

yes the republicans will label sanders a socialist.
but, historically, the GOP can't always get away with that.

???

They called Obama a socialist every single day. The cries of socialism reached a fever pitch during the ACA debate. In the ensuing 2010 elections, Republicans swept the House and overtook an obscene number of legislatures, giving them control over redistricting.

They absolutely gor away with it, and they will again when they call Biden (or Sanders, or Warren, or Buttigieg, or Beto, or ____) a socialist.

#80 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-11 10:50 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#79 I agree.

The Socialist label will stick to Sanders and it will doom him IMO if he wins the primary.

Warren has never called herself a Socialist, and she isn't. She's more of an autocrat (CFPB which is accountable to no one, is her brain child) but that is something that can be hidden from public view.

#81 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-11 10:52 AM | Reply

Wrong.

There was a thread here about Trump's favorability polls not meshing with votes cast. This is easily in that same realm.

There's also the issues of marketing. Dems are horrible at it and the GOP so shameless they simply lie about things. See support of Obamacare vs the ACA as an example.

You're also pushing for a candidate who will win the popular vote but lose the EC with that strategy. I guarantee it.

#73 | POSTED BYJPW

That was my thread on Trump's popularity not meshing with the votes cast.

While I agree 100% with your assessment on terrible Dem messaging ... I diagree with you on what Dems should do.

We both want Dems to win, but for different reasons.

#82 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 10:57 AM | Reply

Maybe the dems should hang Corporate and 1% socialism on the GOP and differentiate as "The GOP LOVES socializing the losses, subsidizing corporations, and accumulating the benefits to those corporations and the top 1%. The Democrats think that the PEOPLE should benefit from any socialism, and not the top 1% and corporations."

#83 | Posted by YAV at 2019-09-11 10:59 AM | Reply

"They called Obama a socialist every single day. The cries of socialism reached a fever pitch during the ACA debate. In the ensuing 2010 elections, Republicans swept the House and overtook an obscene number of legislatures, giving them control over redistricting."

yes, and ACA was the fodder for that. but the republicans didn't get it sold very well....he won twice.

but I wouldn't concede that republicans' success was direct a result of that. dems usually lose spots in legislature at those same times after winning the white house.

#84 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 10:59 AM | Reply

We both want Dems to win, but for different reasons.

yes...but one reason is right, the other wrong.

Your reasons will be a certainty for a dem loss.

#85 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 11:01 AM | Reply

Seriously.....I want Trump OUT...but the adults in the democratic party aren't going to let this go past the primary.

Trump is NOT afraid of the dem running the left....he's hoping like hell they do.

he might not have to go after it as hard himself...but he won't have to. He'll have plenty of help doing that for him.

#79 | POSTED BYEBERLY

Nope, you have it all backwards.

Populism is on the rise?

Why?

Inequality, and especially wealth inequality.

Trump represents fake populism while Bernie is the real deal.

The Democrats may still win in 2020, but until someone actually addresses wealth inequality in concrete terms, the roiling of America's politics in the bottom vs top paradigm will continue.

The GOP will never address wealth inequality, while the Democratic Establishment/DNC only pays lip service to it.

#86 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 11:11 AM | Reply

NO democrat is going to defeat Trump running to the left.

#66 | Posted by eberly

On that we agree.

Although I have to wonder if some of that can be mitigated by having policies tailored in such a way that state to state variation is accounted for.

For instance, don't pass a national minimum wage of $X because $X might be necessary for high cost of living areas but overkill for low cost of living areas. Make the policy based on a metric that will give flexibility to states.

I feel that this would allow pushing these policies that poll well without pushing federal level control, which doesn't poll well. They need to get out from under the "big government" label.

#87 | Posted by jpw at 2019-09-11 11:12 AM | Reply

They called Obama a socialist every single day.

Because he was .... even before he got elected...

Why the Fuss? Obama Has Long Been On Record In Favor Of Redistribution
www.forbes.com

he won twice.

People would come out to vote for him that never voted in their lives.

dems usually lose spots in legislature at those same times after winning the white house.

not quite, an newly elected Presidents party usually wins House, and then loses it in the next election even though the President wins election....

ITs been a very long time since we had a one term President.

#88 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-11 11:12 AM | Reply

yes...but one reason is right, the other wrong.

Your reasons will be a certainty for a dem loss.

#85 | POSTED BYEBERLY

Yeah, you're wrong.

See post # 86.

#89 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 11:13 AM | Reply

they will again when they call Biden

I wouldn't call Biden a socialist, hes an old school Democrat trying to fit in a wokeworld.

#90 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-11 11:13 AM | Reply

pinch.....believe what you want.

I'm done.....

#91 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 11:15 AM | Reply

But I'm sure we're all relieved that the pinchaloafs and their hairbrained strategies are being ignored by the leadership in the democratic party.

#92 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 11:16 AM | Reply

Trump represents fake populism while Bernie is the real deal.

What is "fake" populism, PinchALoaf?

Bernie is fake populism.....

"We were criticized for being too white; that was a correct criticism," Sanders said on the Breakfast Club radio show in March. "We were criticized for being too male; that was a correct criticism. That's going to change."

IT hasn't changed...

#93 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-11 11:16 AM | Reply

#88 | POSTED BYANDREAMACKRIS

Forbes is stuck in a time warp, circa 1971 when the Powell Memo was written.

It's 2019, the corporations won. Wealth inequality is at record levels. America is in it's SECOND Gilded Age.

As Jim Rome would say, time for you to update your smack.

#94 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 11:17 AM | Reply

We both want Dems to win, but for different reasons.

#82 | Posted by PinchALoaf

Not even reasons, I'm betting details differ but not overall objectives.

#95 | Posted by jpw at 2019-09-11 11:17 AM | Reply

Personally, I oppose ALL new spending programs until our existing ones are fully funded.

Balance the budget and get it on a sound trajectory first. Once that happens then I might consider voting for new federal programs.

#96 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-11 11:24 AM | Reply

Not even reasons, I'm betting details differ but not overall objectives.

#95 | POSTED BYJPW

My objectives are for an easier life, and a stable and secure retirement and existence in my old age.

THE PROBLEM

The problem is all the damn money is at the top, and I'm a working-class stiff who drives thru blighted neighborhoods and over pot-holed filled streets where I live -- so, that needs fixing too.

America is the richest country in the world -- there is absolutely no reason why these problems can't be solved and fixed.

#97 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 11:27 AM | Reply

"They called Obama a socialist every single day."

Because he was .... even before he got elected...

Thanks for proving my point that Repubs actually convince low information voters that corporate centrist Dems are "socialists."

#98 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-11 11:32 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Personally, I oppose ALL new spending programs until our existing ones are fully funded.

Balance the budget and get it on a sound trajectory first. Once that happens then I might consider voting for new federal programs.

#96 | POSTED BYJEFFJ

Obamacare was, and is, fully funded and you still rail against it.

So, you know, your idea is a bad idea.

Money simply can be redirected and America still has an annual $18 trillion annual GDP to draw from ... just like when the Wall Street Banks were bailed out in 2008 to the tune of $12.8 trillion at the drop of a hat.

#99 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 11:32 AM | Reply

believe what you want.

#91 | POSTED BYEBERLY

I believe this ...

The Democrats may still win in 2020, but until someone actually addresses wealth inequality in concrete terms ...

the roiling of America's politics in the bottom vs top paradigm will continue.

The GOP will never address wealth inequality, while the Democratic Establishment/DNC only wants to pay lip service to it.

#100 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 11:46 AM | Reply

My objectives are for an easier life, and a stable and secure retirement and existence in my old age.

I would agree but not by directly funding those things.

Freeing up money in people's wallet by reducing medical costs, education costs and efficiently spending tax dollars to minimize taxes is (or should be) the plan.

I know that's vague, but like I said, details details details are the hard part and I'm fine admitting I likely don't know enough to lay out really good plans for each of those.

#101 | Posted by jpw at 2019-09-11 11:46 AM | Reply

"Thanks for proving my point that Repubs actually convince low information voters that corporate centrist Dems are "socialists."

who do you mean by "low information voters"? ----------- rednecks from red states who wouldn't vote for a democrat even a gunpoint?

well...yeah....that's pretty easy.

Did the repubs convince swing state moderate voters that Obama was a socialist?

no, they didn't. not for a lack of trying, though.

remember...these are the only voters worth discussing.

#102 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 12:18 PM | Reply

Did the repubs convince swing state moderate voters that Obama was a socialist?

No. But mostly because socialism wasn't the scary trigger word it has become.

Throughout US history, socialism has been used to try to scare voters. It was tried when FDR announced the New Deal, and again when LBJ announced Medicare.

But it hasn't been reutilized until 2016 and the Bernie Sanders phenomenon.

#103 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-11 12:25 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

who do you mean by "low information voters"?

The person i responded to, for starters.

Did the repubs convince swing state moderate voters that Obama was a socialist?
no, they didn't.

Citation needed. Republicans sweeping the House and swing state legislatures in 2010 would tend to disagree with you.

#104 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-11 12:27 PM | Reply

2010 Poll: 55% of likely voters think Obama is a socialist

www.theatlantic.com

#105 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-11 12:30 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Republicans sweeping the House and swing state legislatures in 2010 would tend to disagree with you."

citation needed. There is no proof that happened because voters in those elections believed Obama was a socialist.

Bill Clinton elected in '92...in '94, what happened? Massive swing to the right in congress and state levels.

Was it because Bill Clinton became a socialist?

Besides, I'm not arguing what can happen in congress.....I'm only worried about a democrat winning the WH.

Neither Bill Clinton nor Obama ran on perceived socialist issues...they may have pursued them once in office but they didn't campaign that way.

#106 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 12:34 PM | Reply

-The person i responded to, for starters.

exactly. a right winger who's vote wasn't in play.

#107 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 12:34 PM | Reply

So are you going to pretend #105 doesn't exist?

#108 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-11 12:35 PM | Reply

108

nope. are you going to pretend that poll was taken in 2008 prior to Obama being elected the first time?

#109 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 12:36 PM | Reply

2010 was mostly a referendum on ACA.

#110 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-11 12:37 PM | Reply

Neither Bill Clinton nor Obama ran on perceived socialist issues...

Obamacare?

#111 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-11 12:38 PM | Reply

"But mostly because socialism wasn't the scary trigger word it has become.
Throughout US history, socialism has been used to try to scare voters. It was tried when FDR announced the New Deal, and again when LBJ announced Medicare."

okay...but we're talking 2019 and the CURRENT GOP and how they'll use that term to scare voters.

You can take up socialist issues once elected.....but you can't run on it. I don't give a ---- what polls say.

#112 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 12:38 PM | Reply

#99

We have over $20 trillion in debt and are running $1 trillion deficits.

The unfunded liabilities of SS/Medicare/Medicaid are mind-boggling.

Until those issues get fixed I will not support any new spending programs.

#113 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-11 12:41 PM | Reply

#109 So your position is that 55% of likely voters always thought Obama was a socialist with no input or influence from Republicans who constantly called him a socialist?

I don't even know how to react to someone this intentionally ignorant. Have a great day

#114 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-11 12:42 PM | Reply

"So your position is that 55% of likely voters always thought Obama was a socialist with no input or influence from Republicans who constantly called him a socialist?"

no, I'm saying you need to cite a poll taken in 2008 before the election citing what % of likely voters thought Obama was a socialist.

or.....you can just ---- off, liljoe. Either way.

#115 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 12:46 PM | Reply

look, if you guys think we should nominate Bernie Sanders and he should run on that list of issues that polled so well.....fine.

welcome to a 2nd term for Donald Trump. Mark my words.

Sanders may even win the popular vote by an even larger margin than Clinton did....but he'll lose the electoral college....again, mark my words.

I was a huge fan of the show West Wing.

There was an episode during the first term and they were all working on strategy for re-election.

A pollster was trying to convince the president he needed to come out in favor of an amendment banning flag burning. He was certain it would sew up re-election. no doubt. And why? Because he had run a poll that said 72% (or something like that) of likely voters supported an amendment banning flag burning.

Another pollster (the deaf woman...Joey Lucas I think was the name) saw the same poll...but she pointed out that numbers lie all the time. While issues like flag burning poll high when asked about it, what the original pollster didn't do was also find out how important the issue is to people. She ran the same poll but added that question to it...asking folks to rank how important the issue is...turned out that most folks, while they will say they favor the amendment, also said it wasn't that important to them. Her conclusion was that the only place that war was being fought was in Washington DC...not anywhere else.

She gave another example of a poll she once ran to test this......she ran a poll and found out that 80% (or some very high number) of folks supported putting litterbugs in jail. but, again, when asked how important the issue was to them......it fizzled quick. nobody really cared....even though they claim they want it, when asked.

just food for thought when thinking poll results should drive policy.....high support for an issue might not really be high support for an issue.

#116 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 01:00 PM | Reply

no, I'm saying you need to cite a poll taken in 2008 before the election citing what % of likely voters thought Obama was a socialist.

And if your argument is that Republicans didn't convince anyone who matters that Obama was a socialist, presumably the number would have been 55 back then too right? So where do you differ with my #114?

#117 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-11 01:45 PM | Reply

"Until those issues get fixed I will not support any new spending programs.
#113 | POSTED BYJEFFJ"

That's a lie, you've already supported new spending programs.

#118 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-11 02:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

117

No. I think the number was lower in 2008.

#119 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 03:16 PM | Reply

So the number went up. And this was not due to Republicans using the term every second of every day?

Can you just flesh out your argument already or do i have to keep pulling teeth and then have you tell me my guesses are wrong?

#120 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-11 03:41 PM | Reply

Joe,

Obama came into office with a 70% approval rating.

The Socialist label in 2010 was primarily due to signing ACA IMO (and all of the debate that preceded it).

#121 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-11 03:43 PM | Reply

#121 I'm aware of that.

The very simple point i made, which only the most stubborn douche would deny, is that Republicans successfully convinced at least some people that Obama was a socialist prior to the 2010 midterms.

#122 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-11 03:53 PM | Reply

122

not enough to cost him election in 2008. he won, remember?

that's the point here...getting a dem to win in 2020.

running as a socialist won't work.

"but but but those ideas poll high" I don't care

"but Obama was labeled a socialist" not when he was running the first time...he won.

#123 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 03:58 PM | Reply

-Obama came into office with a 70% approval rating.

he didn't do that with a socialist label around his neck.

Christ, these --------- want to run someone who WANTS a socialist label around his neck.

#124 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 04:00 PM | Reply

these --------- want to run someone who WANTS a socialist label around his neck.
#124 | POSTED BY EBERLY

It's sad how socialism has become a boogeyman in the heads of so many.

It's literally society taking care of itself and one another.

Pretty much what insurance does. Except one is private and one isn't.

#125 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-11 04:04 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"It's sad how socialism has become a boogeyman in the heads of so many."

I'm not sure when it wasn't a boogeyman. Did FDR walk around say "socialism is the way to go" did he actually use that term to run for office?

regardless....it is the boogeyman today.

#126 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 04:06 PM | Reply

not enough to cost him election in 2008. he won, remember?

Remember how badly his party got trounced in 2010?

Remember how virtually every federal and even state race became a referendum on socialist obamacare?

Remember how 55% of voters in 2010 was convinced obama was a socialist?

It's so tiresome to get you to admit the obvious. Horse to water and all of that.

#127 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-11 04:11 PM | Reply

-Remember how 55% of voters in 2010 was convinced obama was a socialist?

and then re-elected him?

that poll was crap.

just like the issues pinch and you think matter.

what matters in a poll doesn't necessarily matter on election day.

Yes, the democratic party took some lumps overall due to Obamacare.

That's not the problem I'm trying to solve....I want a dem to win in 2020.

#128 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 04:15 PM | Reply

-It's so tiresome to get you to admit the obvious.

It's your fatigue, not mine.

your tired....go take a nap, then.

#129 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 04:16 PM | Reply

and then re-elected him?

In 2010 they essentially took away his power to do his job.

My argument is that Republicans were successful in convincing many Americans he was a socialist.

But if you're right, and that they literally gained no advantage from doing this, then i'm sure we won't see them do it again in 2020.

#130 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-11 04:20 PM | Reply

what matters in a poll doesn't necessarily matter on election day....

#128 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Exactly. Poll people about MMGW. Most will say something should be done to address it, but few can agree on just what should be done.

But that's only half of it. Then go on to list of 15 different issues - illegal immigration, economy, etc. and MMGW will come in last or second to last in terms of importance. This is why Dems are putting themselves in peril by selling various versions of the absurd Green New Deal. They are giving high priority to an issue that is low priority to an overwhelming number of voters. It makes them look elitist and tone-deaf.

#131 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-11 04:21 PM | Reply

If the dems do what I really think they'll do, it will be fine.

they'll toss those issues once there is a nominee.

Then Joepinchedmesoftly will stomp around all pissed off like they've been swindled again.

#132 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 04:24 PM | Reply

My argument is that Republicans were successful in convincing many Americans he was a socialist.

While I think there is some truth to that I argue that it wasn't really a factor in 2010 especially considering Obama wasn't on any ballot in 2010. I've always maintained that 2010 was a referendum of ACA given how hard the GOP campaigned against it. Heck, Scott Brown (R) won the special election for the deceased Ted Kennedy's Senate seat running almost solely on opposing ACA. It's the reason why the House had to vote on the Senate bill with no changes. Normally after each chamber passes their own version of a bill it goes to committee, gets cleaned up and that one bill then gets presented to both chambers for an up/down vote. Some of the problems that arose from ACA were due to the fact that it never went to committee and the House had to vote on a Frankenstein bill. But, I'm starting to veer off-topic so I'll leave it there.

#133 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-11 04:27 PM | Reply

"I've always maintained that 2010 was a referendum of ACA given how hard the GOP campaigned against it."

Right, but then ACA never got repealed.

So it wasn't really a referendum on ACA.

It was a referendum on Obama as a person and a President, not any of his policies.

#134 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-11 04:30 PM | Reply

If the dems do what I really think they'll do, it will be fine.
they'll toss those issues once there is a nominee.
Then Joepinchedmesoftly will stomp around all pissed off like they've been swindled again.

#132 | POSTED BY EBERLY

It depends on the nominee. Candidates can only move so far from the primary to the general. A lot of these candidates are making some awfully radical proposals. A move toward the middle will still leave them pretty far to the left.

Free college for all
Student loan debt forgiveness
Decriminalizing illegal entry
Free medical care for illegal aliens
Abolish ICE
Single payer
Reparations
Some version of the Green New Deal
70% top bracket tax rate

A candidate, like Sanders/Warren/Harris who is selling all of those things can walk away from a couple of them and water down a couple more but to reverse ship on ALL of them? Talk about angering the base with an absurd amount of dishonesty.

#135 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-11 04:33 PM | Reply

Right, but then ACA never got repealed.

That required a Romney victory, which didn't happen.

It was a referendum on Obama as a person and a President, not any of his policies.

Wrong. His personal poll numbers were always much higher than his policy poll numbers.

#136 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-11 04:34 PM | Reply

A move toward the middle will still leave them pretty far to the left.

Stop being so hysterical.

You right wing authoritarians have us so far to the right, the middle is being addressed as the left.

All we want is to move the nation closer to the middle, And mirror policies found in other nations, such as Canada, Australia, England, Germany, France, Sweden, Denmark...

If you ever saw where the left actually is, you'd dump in your pantaloons and pass out from shear fright.

#137 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-11 04:39 PM | Reply

-Candidates can only move so far from the primary to the general.

yeah...it's risky going after the joepinchedmesoftly support in the primary.

It's a long trip from that list back to the middle.

#138 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 04:39 PM | Reply

-All we want is to move the nation closer to the middle

I want to get Donald Trump out of the white house.

#139 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-11 04:42 PM | Reply

#137 So far to the right?

How do you figure?

Enforcing immigration laws and patrolling our borders is to the right of center? Really???

#140 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-11 04:45 PM | Reply

It's a long trip from that list back to the middle.

#138 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Exactly, and by going all-in on that stuff they make themselves easy targets to whack. Just play the soundbites.

#141 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-11 04:46 PM | Reply

"His personal poll numbers were always much higher than his policy poll numbers.
#136 | POSTED BY JEFFJ"

Can I see?

#142 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-11 04:56 PM | Reply

Enforcing immigration laws and patrolling our borders is to the right of center? Really???
#140 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Open borders is a conspiracy cooked up by strategists, peddled to a hateful public by Trump.

We've never allowed unfettered immigration and never will. Never.

Both parties are aware illegal immigrants come to this country and work below minimum wage jobs. Neither party has gone after the employers and they never will.

It's pointless having a discussion with people so willingly partisan and gullible.

#143 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-11 07:18 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The state of Texas isn't afraid of socialism ...

Univision News Poll: Bernie beats Trump in Texas

drudge.com

#144 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 10:21 PM | Reply

#144 | Posted by PinchALoaf, Oh! I am so sure of the accuracy of Univision polls. How did they do in the last election cycle?

#145 | Posted by docnjo at 2019-09-12 12:59 AM | Reply

Why do you have distrust Univision polls?

#146 | Posted by YAV at 2019-09-12 07:16 AM | Reply

I am so sure of the accuracy of Univision polls. How did they do in the last election cycle?

#145 | POSTED BY DOCNJO

Russiagate and Muellergate showed how the media fluffed those stories the same way they fluffed Hillary's 2016 poll coverage ...

And the same media hates Bernie Sanders.

So what does that tell you?

#147 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-12 08:20 AM | Reply

#147 | Posted by PinchALoaf About as much as the coverage of that Damn Yankee. Never forget 90% of the news you get is from six mega corporations. A corporation will never go against it's own interest.

#148 | Posted by docnjo at 2019-09-12 11:28 AM | Reply

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