Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Sunday, September 15, 2019

Unpaid hospital bills are a leading cause of personal debt and bankruptcy across the nation, with hospitals from Memphis to Baltimore criticized for their role in pushing families over the financial edge. But UVA stands out for the scope of its collection efforts and how persistently it seeks payment, pursuing poor as well as middle-class patients for almost all they're worth.

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Krystal Ball does a tremendous job in knocking down's Rahm Emanuel's ridiculous Medicare-for-All smear in the top 5-minute video.

In the process of knocking down the smear, Krystal Ball mentions how absurd and barbaric it is to live in such a wealthy country where University of Virginia Health System bankrupts patients simply for getting sick.

#1 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-10 09:05 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

And the bottom video is Bernie's Fox News Townhall in West Virginia where, at the 20-minute mark, Bernie explains the question on how Medicare-for-All will be paid for ...

Some advice for people who are skeptical -- it's okay to ask "how", but at what point will you finally admit to just saying "why not", it's only your health.

And Bernie's explanation on how to pay for Medicare-for-All received multiple applause -- these West Virginians get it.

#2 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-10 09:13 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 6

"And Bernie's explanation on how to pay for Medicare-for-All received multiple applause -- these West Virginians get it.

#2 | POSTED BY PINCHALOAF "

Well, I'm convinced. If a bunch of inbred coal miners clap, it's got to be good.

#3 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-10 09:21 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#3 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-10 09:21 PM |

A rig monkey hating on coal miners?

#4 | Posted by PunchyPossum at 2019-09-11 01:25 AM | Reply

"A rig monkey hating on coal miners?

#4 | POSTED BY PUNCHYPOSSUM "

*Ex* rig monkey. I retired 6 or 7 years ago.

#5 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-11 01:30 AM | Reply

"A rig monkey hating on coal miners?

#4 | POSTED BY PUNCHYPOSSUM "

BTW, the popular pejorative is "oil field trash". Never really heard "rig monkey" before. If you are going to hate, use the right term.

#6 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-11 01:44 AM | Reply

Well, I'm convinced. If a bunch of inbred coal miners clap, it's got to be good.

#3 | Posted by goatman

After all, look at how they behave when Donald Trump is on the stage telling them that coal will be king again.

OCU

#7 | Posted by OCUser at 2019-09-11 12:08 PM | Reply

I had a good friend years ago who had come down with colon cancer. He was an independent owner/operator driver and had a not so good health insurance policy he paid completely out of his pocket. The evaluating doctor recognized the inadequacy of his policy and sat him down and said to him: "lets make a list of all your assets."
He died 4 months later with a six figure medical debt bill.

The U.S. Healthcare system has indeed become nothing more than an extortion racket. Not only is this criminal and horrific, it's unsustainable.

#8 | Posted by shane at 2019-09-11 01:11 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

The U.S. Healthcare system has indeed become nothing more than an extortion racket. Not only is this criminal and horrific, it's unsustainable.

#8 | POSTED BY SHANE

QFT

#9 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 06:20 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#10

This thread deserves double digits.

#10 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-11 09:32 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

This thread definitely deserves to be front page -- good call.

Someone please explain to me why in America, where we have more money than we know what to do with ... we still have these tragically outrageous situations where people who get sick still end up financially pulverized into a destitute-type existence simply for being sick?

I'll wait.

#11 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-15 09:57 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The healthcare industry In the United States is broken.
This is an EpiPen alternative. For my child. #MedicareForAll

QFT

#12 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-15 10:01 PM | Reply

I'll bet they don't go after illegal immigrants.

#13 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-09-15 10:08 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

The U.S. Healthcare system has indeed become nothing more than an extortion racket. Not only is this criminal and horrific, it's unsustainable.

#8 | POSTED BY SHANE

Exactly .. which is why going after health insurance companies, or M4A is ludicrous.

Its like asking car Insurance companies to lower the cost of cars and their repair.

#14 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-15 10:13 PM | Reply

which is why going after health insurance companies, or M4A is ludicrous.

Its like asking car Insurance companies to lower the cost of cars and their repair.

#14 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS

Fox and Friends viewers even support Bernie Sanders Medicare-for-All plan by a margin of 73% yes to 27% no, with 31,650 votes cast.

www.youtube.com
[11:50]

Go to the 10:25 mark

So if even Fox and Friends viewers think Bernie Sanders is on the right track with Medicare-for-All, then only brain-washed right-wing hacks would disagree -- no offense.

#15 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-15 11:33 PM | Reply

Obamacare was too black.

So......... good luck.

#16 | Posted by fresno500 at 2019-09-15 11:46 PM | Reply

If Trump is re-elected we'll have an inflatable moon base with NordicTrack exercise machines because Norway is simply better.

#17 | Posted by LesWit at 2019-09-16 01:05 AM | Reply

The problem with Medicare/Medicaid for all is that the service is no better. This allows nursing homes and hospitals to hire bottom of the barrel staff to take care of patients. The food is atrocious. The doctors can't even communicate properly in English because they are imported from over seas. Most of the nurses and CNAs are there for a paycheck and couldn't care less for patients needs. In NY, there's no proper patient staff rations. You're lucky if you get to see your nurse or aide one in a 12 hour shift. Most hospitals hire rent-a-nurse (think: rent a cop = mall security) who hardly know how to wrap a bandage. Most current nurses are coming out of prison or the welfare lines and are "given" their certifications.

My friend from Montreal, Quebec, Canada waits for months before she can see her doctor once. If you have a serious illness, you're left to wait in a nursing home until a slot opens. Most times, you're going to die before your slot opens.

Medicaid/Medicare-for-all is not a cure all. As an American I can go to Toronto to a doctor but I have to buy "Traveler's insurance" to offset the $450 I have to pay before my Medicaid kicks in. Otherwise, If I want o see a doctor NOW, I have to pay serious cash money to get in before all the Canadians on their "social medicine" program.

Right now, I am waiting for my drugs to kick in and then I do my own medical treatment, even though I have a nurse and I'm in a hospital in the state of NY.

That's Medicaid/Medicare-for-all. It's a sucker's bet.

#18 | Posted by Goose_Boils at 2019-09-16 01:07 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Someone please explain to me why in America, where we have more money than we know what to do with ... we still have these tragically outrageous situations where people who get sick still end up financially pulverized into a destitute-type existence simply for being sick?"

Because people don't want to pay for it. If the US were to implement a European style Value Added Tax, the country would have plenty of money to provide some sort of government-sponsored option.

#19 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-09-16 05:00 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

That's Medicaid/Medicare-for-all. It's a sucker's bet.

#18 | POSTED BY GOOSE_BOILS AT 2019-09-16 01:07 AM | FLAG: EYE ROLL

Another ghost story.

I don't think you're telling the truth.

#20 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2019-09-16 06:43 AM | Reply

Because people don't want to pay for it.

#19 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Wrong

People WANT to pay for it.

Per post #15 ...

Fox and Friends viewers even support Bernie Sanders Medicare-for-All plan by a margin of 73% yes to 27% no, with 31,650 votes cast.

Why are you lying?

#21 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-16 07:09 AM | Reply

"People WANT to pay for it."

I disagree.

What Bernie is offering is healthcare for all, paid for by a relative few. Very few people will argue against free stuff...even if they wouldn't be willing to pay for it themselves.

If Bernie were to introduce a VAT as a means of funding MFA, I'm fairly certain it would become Medicare for None...because people wouldn't want the cost of the things they buy to go up by 20%.

I could be wrong, but I think any sort of meaningful tax mechanism is going to turn off voters, and that it's current popularity is based on the notion that Bernie is going to leave to wealthier income earners to fund those programs, allowing the middle class and lower access to healthcare at steeply discounted rates.

#22 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-09-16 07:16 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

I disagree

#22 | POSTED BYMADBOMBER

You're irrelevant.

You don't matter.

The link is right there in post # 15 where even Fox News viewers support Bernie Sanders Medicare-for-all plan -- and it's on video.

You just saying words is meaningless.

#23 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-16 07:33 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

If Bernie were to introduce a VAT as a means of funding MFA, I'm fairly certain it would become Medicare for None...because people wouldn't want the cost of the things they buy to go up by 20%.
I could be wrong, but I think any sort of meaningful tax mechanism is going to turn off voters, and that it's current popularity is based on the notion that Bernie is going to leave to wealthier income earners to fund those programs, allowing the middle class and lower access to healthcare at steeply discounted rates.

#22 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER AT 2019-09-16 07:16 AM |

Why don't you leave the number crunching to people who learned math. All of the arguments against medicare for all pretend the cost is IN ADDITION or HIGHER than what you pay now. It is not INSTEAD of the current system. The best version is an opt in. It is not free for anyone. Medicare has premiums and copays just like regular insurance. It has significant savings at every level.

#24 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2019-09-16 07:41 AM | Reply

"The link is right there in post # 15 where even Fox News viewers support Bernie Sanders Medicare-for-all plan -- and it's on video."

Q1: Would you support Medicare for All?

Q2: Would you support Medicare for All if it meant you paid more overall for healthcare?

Q3: Would you support Medicare for All if it resulted in increased wait times and scarcity of service?

Q4: Would you support Medicare for All as a replacement for all non-disctrionary healthcare services?

Depending on how the question is phrased, you can elicit a desired answer.

#25 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-09-16 07:58 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Most current nurses are coming out of prison or the welfare lines and are "given" their certifications."

That was the biggest dump every taken on this site. And it stinks. I know nurses who work in hospital, nothing could be farther from the truth that what you posted.

#26 | Posted by danni at 2019-09-16 08:02 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

If Madbomber is against it I'm definitely for it. Yes I support Medicare for all and not idiot is going to be able to convince me we can't do better than the system we have now.

#27 | Posted by danni at 2019-09-16 08:03 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"If Bernie were to introduce a VAT as a means of funding MFA, I'm fairly certain it would become Medicare for None...because people wouldn't want the cost of the things they buy to go up by 20%."

So why would he even consider that? Why not raise the taxes on capital gain and high income earners to pay for it like we used to do? Did Bernie say something about a VAT to pay for Medicare for All? If he did I missed it.

#28 | Posted by danni at 2019-09-16 08:05 AM | Reply

"So why would he even consider that? Why not raise the taxes on capital gain and high income earners to pay for it like we used to do?"

Like we used to? We didn't. No one does (did)

The western eruopean systems that Bernie claims he want to emulate-they exist largely because the countries employ a VAT to fund the services provided by government. And unlike people like you here in the US, that's a burden that the people of Europe have elected to take on for themselves. They're not looking to fund additional services by making "the rich" pay for it. That's not a narrative I come across much over here.

But you kind of made my point for me. Namely that support for MFA declines once the supporters would be expected to pay for it. When it's being pushed as a free or discounted service, you're going to get more people in support.

#29 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-09-16 09:53 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Our healthcare system is no longer optimized for helping people get well and stay well.

It has been optimized for the maximum transfer of money from patients to the healthcare corporations.


#30 | Posted by LampLighter at 2019-09-16 09:56 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

-Fox and Friends viewers even support Bernie Sanders Medicare-for-All plan by a margin of 73% yes to 27% no, with 31,650 votes cast.

funny...a poll. taking stock in polls again are we?

you believed giving folks access to Obamacare would drive our uninsured rate to a very low number......and I'm sure polls like this one told you it would work out that way.

#31 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-16 09:57 AM | Reply

"If Madbomber is against it I'm definitely for it. Yes I support Medicare for all and not idiot is going to be able to convince me we can't do better than the system we have now."

I'm definintely against it.

Bernie has gone off the reservation into uncharted territories with his version of MFA...which would ban any sort of healthcare plan the would be in direct competition with what the government was giving people. Instead of stripping people of a right to have a say in how their healthcare if provided, why not try and emuate one of the more successful models that are already in place throughout the world?

#32 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-09-16 09:59 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

-Why not raise the taxes on capital gain and high income earners to pay for it like we used to do?

Because his own party will fight him on it and of course the GOP will oppose it...meaning it has zero chance of becoming reality.

#33 | Posted by eberly at 2019-09-16 10:15 AM | Reply

#33

The thing about taxes...it's actually very difficult to make people pay taxes if they don't want to. Particulalry income taxes, because you actually have to transfom your time/effort/resources into income before it can be taxed.

VATs can solve that problem to a degree, because everyone is a consumer. They may change the consumer's decision calculus by artificially inflating the price, but they are far more collectable than income taxes.

#34 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-09-16 10:57 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Welcome to Amerika where getting sick from air, water and land poisoned by corporate America will lead to debt collectors harrasing and seizing homes and paychecks.

#35 | Posted by Nixon at 2019-09-16 11:18 AM | Reply

Bernie has gone off the reservation into uncharted territories with his version of MFA.

#32 | POSTED BYMADBOMBER

Wrong

Medicare-for-all has strong BIPARTISAN support, even with the Fox News crowd.

So everything that you say opposite of that is wrong.

#36 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-16 11:31 AM | Reply

MFA has been proposed in different forms. Most often, it's proposed in the form of a basic, no frills plan. But for those who wanted it, private healthcare would be available for those who didn't want to wait months for a procedure or spend their hospital stay in an open bay dorm.

Bernie's plan would prohibit that. The government plan would be the only one available.

#37 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-09-16 12:33 PM | Reply

Posted by madbomber

You're a blithering idiot.

#38 | Posted by Angrydad at 2019-09-16 04:38 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Sounds like Trump Care is working as planned.

#39 | Posted by donnerboy at 2019-09-16 10:33 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#40

I like nice round numbers.

#40 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-16 10:36 PM | Reply

Don't other states have Homestead laws that prevents seizure of one's home? I thought they all did. In Texas, a person's home and property cannot be seized to pay a debt of any kind if the property owner has file for a homestead exemption.

#41 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-16 10:36 PM | Reply

Don't other states have Homestead laws that prevents seizure of one's home? I thought they all did. In Texas, a person's home and property cannot be seized to pay a debt of any kind if the property owner has file for a homestead exemption.

#41 | POSTED BYGOATMAN

This is America, hack.

If they want your money, they are going to get it one way or another.

Where have you been the last 30 years ...

living in a cave with Trumple-hack's-tin?

#42 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-16 10:49 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Where have you been the last 30 years ...
living in a cave with Trumple-hack's-tin?
#42 | POSTED BY PINCHALOAF"

Oh, look. Fifth thread my stalker has followed me to tonight. Again, I said nothing to him or about him, but he stalks me relentlessly.

But don't worry, the DR's most prestigous posters, speaksoftly and lauramohr have your back!

Bye now, stalker.

#43 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-16 10:54 PM | Reply

Oh, look. Fifth thread my stalker has followed me to tonight. Again, I said nothing to him or about him, but he stalks me relentlessly.

But don't worry, the DR's most prestigous posters, speaksoftly and lauramohr have your back!

Bye now, stalker.

#43 | POSTED BYGOATMAN

Stop whining, Snowflake.

Wait, is it Snowflake or SnowFake?

Just go get your shinebox, Snowflake.

#44 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-16 10:57 PM | Reply

Don't other states have Homestead laws that prevents seizure of one's home? I thought they all did. In Texas, a person's home and property cannot be seized to pay a debt of any kind if the property owner has file for a homestead exemption.

#41 | POSTED BY GOATMAN AT 2019-09-16 10:36 PM

Exceptions to Homestead Protection
Nine items other than IRS taxes can breach homestead protection in Texas:

Mechanic's liens for work on your property
Loans on the purchase price of your house (purchase money liens)
Divorce, if you are dividing assets
Refinancing
Liens that existed before your property was declared a homestead
Home equity loans
Reverse mortgages
Local property taxes (ad valorem tax) if you're seriously delinquent
Trying to hide assets -- that's evidence you're trying to commit fraud. Fraudulent intent makes you ineligible for homestead protection.

Texas homestead law puts no upper dollar limit on how much real estate you can exempt from seizure by creditors, but the IRS does for taxes: Your exemption is capped at $170,350

If you have less equity in your primary residence than that, the IRS won't seize it.

#45 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2019-09-16 11:57 PM | Reply

"#45 | POSTED BY HATTER5183 "

I don't think anything on that list would justify seizing a home due to a medicall incured debt.

#46 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-17 12:13 AM | Reply

In Florida bankruptcy you can keep one car and one house.

#47 | Posted by danni at 2019-09-17 09:31 AM | Reply

"But for those who wanted it, private healthcare would be available for those who didn't want to wait months for a procedure or spend their hospital stay in an open bay dorm."

You don't know that anyone is going to have to wait months for a procedure, pure scare tactics.

#48 | Posted by danni at 2019-09-17 09:32 AM | Reply

You don't know that anyone is going to have to wait months for a procedure, pure scare tactics.

Talk anyone in the VA... months to just see a doctor... years for any medical procedure.... most wait.... until they die.... problem solved....

#49 | Posted by Pegasus at 2019-09-17 11:50 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Come to Texas, the only thing they can garnish your check for is child support. You can not be sued for medical payments, especially a home that you have a homestead exemption on.

#50 | Posted by docnjo at 2019-09-17 12:20 PM | Reply

"You don't know that anyone is going to have to wait months for a procedure, pure scare tactics."

I don't...but it happens all the time in the UK, Canada, and elsewhere.

Even here in Germany, one of the guys who works for me was looking at a six week wait to see a GP. Instead, he's going to take a little vacay and see a doctor in the states.

...and Germany has one of the better systems. What Bernie is proposing would be a dumpster fire of epic proportions.

#51 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-09-17 03:33 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Even here in Germany, one of the guys who works for me was looking at a six week wait to see a GP. Instead, he's going to take a little vacay and see a doctor in the states."

It isn't uncommon in the United States to have to wait weeks for a doctor's appointment.

Anyone needing Urgent Care has quick access. A friend of ours went into the hospital Sunday when he wasn't feeling well. He got an immediate CAT scan that afternoon and surgery later that afternoon.

No one here or in Germany or Western Europe who needs Urgent Care has to wait weeks.

#52 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-09-17 04:09 PM | Reply

Re: The cost of M4A.

Yes, it will require a massive tax increase.

It is also projected to result in an equally massive decrease in out of pocket and corporate contributions to insurance premiums, appointments, prescriptions, etc.

If someone makes $100k/year, their company shells out $20k for their health insurance, and the employee comes out of pocket for another $10k, explain to me why it would matter if they came out of pocket for even less but the money went to the government instead.

You can quibble about quality of care - and a minority of people would see a reduction in quality of care - but to claim there's no way to pay for it is to be ignorant of virtually every study on the issue.

#53 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-17 04:19 PM | Reply

Yes, it will require a massive tax increase.

It is also projected to result in an equally massive decrease in out of pocket and corporate contributions to insurance premiums, appointments, prescriptions, etc.

The question then becomes - what does corporate America do with all of that money?

Also, in the short-term during the transition phase it will all most likely trigger a recession, possibly a whopper of a recession.

#54 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-17 04:26 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

The question then becomes - what does corporate America do with all of that money?

Continue paying their employees' insurance premiums?

#55 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-17 04:28 PM | Reply

Continue paying their employees' insurance premiums?

#55 | POSTED BY JOE

What I'm saying is that they may only use a portion of that money on employee pay and use the rest for other purposes.

Also, does the corporate tax-rate necessarily skyrocket along with the personal income tax rate?

#56 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-17 04:35 PM | Reply

I think you misunderstood where i'm coming from.

If a company is currently paying $20,000/year toward their employee's health insurance premium, health insurance premium, they can just continue paying that $20,000 toward thwir wmployee's Medicare premium.

And yes, perhaps that's in the form of a "tax." But if it's money out the door in either case, is there a difference?

#57 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-17 04:41 PM | Reply

Wow great typing joe

#58 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-17 04:41 PM | Reply

#57 I see what you are saying now. Yes, that does make sense.

I should have anticipated that these kinds of questions would have already been looked into.

#59 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-17 04:45 PM | Reply

--Wow great typing joe

Maybe you ought to put the whiskey flask back in the fake law book.

#60 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-17 04:49 PM | Reply

I see what you are saying now.

Surprising considering how bad the post was.

#61 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-17 04:49 PM | Reply

#60 Ha! Great point Nullifidian! Thanks for sharing :)

#62 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-17 04:50 PM | Reply

"It isn't uncommon in the United States to have to wait weeks for a doctor's appointment."

Not for a GP. In Louisiana, it would be odd even to be put off until the next day.

I was actually quite surprised there was a wait time here. But yeah, you can always go to the emergency room. Wait for four hours and be told you need to go see a GP.

#63 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-09-18 03:17 AM | Reply

"Yes, it will require a massive tax increase."

Agreed. Which is where a Value Added Tax comes in. Like the rest of the western world.

"It is also projected to result in an equally massive decrease in out of pocket and corporate contributions to insurance premiums, appointments, prescriptions, etc."

In 2016, the average family spent $714 out of pocket on healthcare costs. The rest was covered by insurance, either through employment, entitlements, welfare, or direct purchase.

I think you can make the argument that those who have directly purchased insurance would save money (14.6%), but how are the rest made better off?

#64 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-09-18 03:31 AM | Reply

"If a company is currently paying $20,000/year toward their employee's health insurance premium, health insurance premium, they can just continue paying that $20,000 toward their employee's Medicare premium."

So how are they, or their employee, benefitting from this new arrangement, particularly if the quality of care declines as a result.

And technically, the employer would no longer be proving that employee with a benefit (health insurance)-they're only paying a tax. If they wanted to incentivize someone working for them, they would have to pay more money on top for some form of supplemental care.

Of course that would not be possible under a Bernie plan, as any measures that were in competition with what the government was offering would be forbidden.

#65 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-09-18 03:35 AM | Reply

"#57 I see what you are saying now. Yes, that does make sense. I should have anticipated that these kinds of questions would have already been looked into."

It doesn't...not really.

Health insurance is provided as a benefit of employment. Under the circumstances outlined by Joe, Medicare would not be a benefit resulting from employment. It would be a tax-funded entitlement.

Therefor, neither the employer wouldn't benefit from having this amount $20K go to the government instead of the employee, in that it would do nothing to incentivize the worker to those that employer over others. if I were the employer, I'd simply provide that $20k as additional income and retain the incentive for employment.

#66 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-09-18 03:40 AM | Reply

In 2016, the average family spent $714 out of pocket on healthcare costs. The rest was covered by insurance, either through employment, entitlements, welfare, or direct purchase.

"Direct purchase" should be added to your misleading figure as it is an out of pocket expense.

I think you can make the argument that those who have directly purchased insurance would save money (14.6%), but how are the rest made better off?

Where to start...
There are people who have no insurance
There are people who have insurance that doesn't cover what they need it to cover
There are people who have insurance who can't afford to go to the doctor because their deductible is too high
There are people who have insurance who can't afford to go to the doctor because even after meeting their deductible they still get a massive bill in the mail
There are people who have insurance who can't affird to fill their prescriptions
There are people who have any sort of plan that doesn't provide the level of benefits that M4A would

That's just off the top of my head...are you really unaware of all these people? It would explain a lot about your position.

#67 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-18 06:54 AM | Reply

technically, the employer would no longer be proving that employee with a benefit (health insurance)-they're only paying a tax.

A tax on behalf of the employee? I'm sure there are many ways to demonstrate to employees how much the employer has paid on their behalf. Companies do this all the time.

it would do nothing to incentivize the worker to those that employer over others

Healthcare shouldn't be used as a bargaining chip anymore.

#68 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-18 06:58 AM | Reply

"That's just off the top of my head...are you really unaware of all these people? It would explain a lot about your position."

So...it's really not going to help the people who are paying for it...it's really just a plan to make those who are already paying for it pay for everyone else as well.

Is that about right?

"A tax on behalf of the employee? I'm sure there are many ways to demonstrate to employees how much the employer has paid on their behalf. Companies do this all the time."

No. if it's a tax, it's not a benefit to the employee. It would just be another cost of doing business. But in no way could it be construed as a benefit provided to the employee by the employer.

"Healthcare shouldn't be used as a bargaining chip anymore."

But that's exactly what you're doing. By creating the conditions where a smaller number of taxpayers cover the entire cost of providing healthcare to a nation you're placing a bet that you can get sufficient votes to gain the legal authority to shape society, rather than allow society to shape itself through it's own actions. Implementation of a VAT solves that problem. It also provides a more effective means of collecting taxes. It's actually very hard to collect income taxes from people who don't want to pay them.

#69 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-09-18 08:18 AM | Reply

And I'm quite certain that the minute MFA comes with a price tag, many of it's supporters will begin to fade into the background. Even those who are uninsured or underinsured.

#70 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-09-18 08:19 AM | Reply

Even here in Germany, one of the guys who works for me was looking at a six week wait to see a GP. Instead, he's going to take a little vacay and see a doctor in the states.
...and Germany has one of the better systems. What Bernie is proposing would be a dumpster fire of epic proportions.

#51 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER AT 2019-09-17 03:33 PM | REPLY

The USA isn't even in the top 10 for medical tourism destinations.

In 2017 between 60,000 and 80,000 people visited America for medical care, usually for rare specialties

In 2017 1.7 Million Americans visited other countries for medical care most often for spinal, cardiac, and transplants. The people visiting America came for high priced specialized care that is often considered elective. The Americans who left went abroad for routine procedures that often had LOWER wait times and lower costs abroad even for non-citizens.

A co-worker vactioning in Japan Broke his hip. He had a private hospital room and got hip replacement surgery. His out of pocket cost as a US citizen visiting Japan was $90, $45/month for health insurance that covers everything plus $6 for each meal in the hospital.

#71 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2019-09-18 05:25 PM | Reply

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