Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Saturday, September 14, 2019

Sam Smith has declared the pronouns of "they/them" on social media after coming out as non-binary in what the pop star called a "lifetime of being at war with my gender."

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I guess Mr. (or is it Ms?) Smith doesn't know those are plural pronouns and don't apply in a first person sense.

#1 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-13 04:39 PM | Reply

Just another SJW idiot and language cop that wants everyone else to adopt NewSpeak.

Orwell groans...

#2 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-13 04:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Ah, Sam - you are still a dude. You might be gay or bi or questioning or whatever, but until you chop the twigs and berries, you are a dude. You can pretend you are whatever you want - just don't expect the world to play along with your delusion.

#3 | Posted by iragoldberg at 2019-09-14 12:59 PM | Reply

At what point could people no longer figure out the difference between gender and personality? It'd be nice if these idiots could even manage consistency. Do men and women have different brains, and therefore different interests and strengths? If so, why was the neocrybaby left screaming and throwing a fit about Damore, or anyone who suggests maybe women just aren't going to be as interested in STEM fields and such and we are wasting our time trying to force diversity? Alternatively, perhaps gender is nothing but a social construct and the brain is not a gendered organ. In that case, why pretend everyone has some special new gender when there's really no gender at all and just a few variations on basic sex types?

And no, I'm not delegitimizatiing the experience of the transgendered either - I said nothing about physical dysphoria as being something related to body dymorphia that resists treatment other than transitioning. But that I can at least see as a physical disconnect. It's the rest of the made up gender crap that's annoying, and mainly because the oppression olympics have made it so they alternate so fast between explanations it's past even cognitive dissonance.

But oh well. I guess it can call itself whatever it wants.

#4 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2019-09-14 02:54 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Good for Sam! Takes a lot of courage to come out and I truly respect him for that! The folks who are criticizing him would never listen to his music anyway. His fans will still support him and he, rightly, doesn't give a crap about the critics.

#5 | Posted by danni at 2019-09-14 03:14 PM | Reply

It's sort of funny reading the posts of the haters which Sam will never bother to notice. In many ways I sort of identify with stars like Sam. A pair of sunglasses and earphones, you can just ignore the world of critics. If they can't see your eyes and you can't hear their hate then you can go anywhere without fear.

#6 | Posted by danni at 2019-09-14 03:17 PM | Reply

Never heard of this guy, gal, whatever. He's a pop star? How can you be a "star" when no one knows who you are? What's it take to be a "star" these days? A dozen facebook friends?

#7 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-14 03:22 PM | Reply

#5 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2019-09-14 03:14 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Come out as what? A guy who doesn't like football or something, so needs their own gender to feel special about it?

I don't particularly care for it myself, but once I tell people I'm from Michigan and only have the Lions to look to, I usually find acceptance.

#8 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2019-09-14 03:39 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"[...]"

Do you know how much he cares what you think Goat? Hilarious!

#10 | Posted by danni at 2019-09-14 04:29 PM | Reply

It's pretty amazing for some of you to be so threatened by a pronoun. Your worldview must be as fragile as a newborn kitten.

If this is what Sam wants, I say more power to them.

#11 | Posted by rcade at 2019-09-14 04:51 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"It's pretty amazing for some of you to be so threatened by a pronoun. Your worldview must be as fragile as a newborn kitten."

I'm not threatened by a pronoun -- I just think it's stupid, not to mention confusing, when one doesn't speak the language properly and in the manner the rest of English speakers speak it and are taught. Using a plural pronoun when talking about one person is silly.

And how do you conjugate the verbs? If we can't say, "He is" talking about a person in the third person singular, do we now say, "they is"? Or "they talks, they eats"? Or does Sam et al demand we conjugate verbs differently as well to match their self-proclaimed version of English?

It's just stupid. Use the language properly is all I'm saying. To imply anyone is threatened by a pronoun is silly and deflecting. I agree with George Carlin who had an impeccable grasp of the English language and did not tolerate it being abused. He'd tear this guy and his ilk to shreds if he was still alive.

#12 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 05:03 PM | Reply

That was a serious question above. How do you conjugate verbs when talking about Sam?

Do you use third person singular since Sam is third person singular? (They talks) Or do you use the conjugation meant to go with the pronoun "they" (They talk, even though "talks" is the proper verb conjugation for third person singular)

Or do we have to ask Sam and see what usage he approves of.

I hope the OED and Merriam Webster understand how important Sam is and make the necessary changes to their lexicographical tomes so Sam will be happy.

#13 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 05:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

How do you conjugate verbs when talking about Sam?

You treat "they" and "them" as singular since you're talking about one person.

Making this entirely about Sam shows how uninformed you are about this. Many other people have requested they/them. It's been going on for years.

#14 | Posted by rcade at 2019-09-14 06:02 PM | Reply

A TRAGIC PLAY:

Person 1: "Hi, everybody. My name is Steve now, not Jerry. I changed it."

Person 2: "I will not tolerate your SJW NewSpeak! You can pretend anything you like, Jerry, but I don't have to play along with your delusion! Listen, Jerry, your name was Jerry when I met you and it will always be Jerry to me! If Jerry doesn't like that Jerry can go to hell."

Person 1: "This kind of thing is why you don't have many friends. And now you have one less."

CURTAIN DROPS.

APPLAUSE.

#15 | Posted by rcade at 2019-09-14 06:10 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Making this entirely about Sam shows how uninformed you are about this. Many other people have requested they/them. It's been going on for years.

#14 | POSTED BY RCADE AT 2019-09-14 06:02 PM |"

And referring to males as 'he' and 'him' has been going on for hundreds, much longer if we consider other languages and their evolutions. Referring to multiple people vs singe has been going for as long.

Trying to alter the language to suit a few people who like to sleep with their own gender is a very, very recent event.

So if you assertion "it's been going on for years" is a valid argument, then "using pronouns in a very specific way" has been going on for hundreds and is more valid.

Seriously, what's wrong with using the correct words when speaking? And the changing of names is an apples and oranges thing, and you know it. Changing one's name is not an attempt to change the way a language is spoken.

And in this brave new world, are we all supposed to carry little handbooks with notes in it so we know what pronouns to use on people? Are we supposed to google a person before talking about him to determine if we use the 1st person plural or the first person singular when talking about him -- oops, them?

The entire concept of changing the language and causing confusion when speaking to suit some snowflakes who melt if they are called by the commonly accepted pronouns is absurd.

#16 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 07:08 PM | Reply

"You treat "they" and "them" as singular since you're talking about one person.

#14 | POSTED BY RCADE "

My English teachers at PHS would have a fit if I startred saying "they is" and would have failed me.

"But, but, but, Mrs. Hardison (yes that was really my 10th grade English teacher and an apt name it was) I was talking about Sam Smith."

Right.

If people are so freaked out with "he", just come up with another pronoun as they came up with Ms. when Mrs. and Miss were deemed politically incorrect. It makes much more sense than hijacking another word that already has a very specific, well defined, and universally accepted meaning.

#17 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 07:15 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"It's pretty amazing for some of you to be so threatened by a pronoun.
#11 | POSTED BY RCADE "

You fail to see the double standard here, don't you?

I would argue it's amazing that Sam Smith would be threatened by being called "he" or "him" being used an an object when referring to him.

#18 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 07:19 PM | Reply

hijacking another word that already has a very specific, well defined, and universally accepted meaning.

Do you ever tire of being so wrong about everything?

public.oed.com

#19 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-14 07:44 PM | Reply

#19 | Posted by JOE

Do what you like. You can be a trailblazer and bring back 16th century English.

The rest of us will stick with modern usage.

#20 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-14 07:55 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

When the gay rates movement was at a high point, but before they got their right to marry, etc., they said, "All they wanted was to be treated like everyone else. They did not want to be treated differently. I agreed with that. I believe everyone should be treated equally.

But no sooner than they achieved equality rights, they started to try to change things. First it was how American used the toilet. For hundreds of years people with a penis used the men's room and people with a vagina used the women's room. But the LGBT community wasn't happy with this and they tried -- are still trying -- to change this even though they promised they wanted to be treated like everyone else.

Now they are not satisfied with how the English language is spoken and they want to hijack well established words for their own personal use even though historically people with a penis were referred to with masculine pronouns and people with a vagina were referred to with feminine pronouns.

I actually believed them that they just wanted to be treated the same as everyone else. Clearly my trust was misplaced.

#21 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 07:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#20 Saying something has happened since then doesn't mean it only happened then. I've heard of singular they when you don't know who you're talking about as long as i've heard words. Sorry your delicate political sensibilities prevent you from acknowledging the obvious.

#22 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-14 07:56 PM | Reply

I actually believed them that they just wanted to be treated the same as everyone else. Clearly my trust was misplaced.

Poor baby, you must be hurt. Do you need some reparations?

#23 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-14 07:57 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"hijacking another word that already has a very specific, well defined, and universally accepted meaning.
Do you ever tire of being so wrong about everything?
public.oed.com

#19 | POSTED BY JOE ?

Disagreeing with you doesn't make me wrong. What utter arrogance.

And you say you don't troll. LOL

#24 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 07:58 PM | Reply

"Poor baby...

#23 | POSTED BY JOE AT 2019-09-14 07:57 PM "

And the trolling continues.

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers."

Socrates

Better luck next time, Joe.

#25 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 08:00 PM | Reply

Damned bigoted rubes.

#26 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-14 08:00 PM | Reply

Clearly, some of you have never interacted on a regular basis with a non-binary person. It really is very simple. But I guess that is too much effort for snowflakes. My suspicion is that the majority of people who have a problem with this are either: over 50 years old; or deeply conservative. Or both.

#27 | Posted by moder8 at 2019-09-14 08:09 PM | Reply

"#27 | POSTED BY MODER8 AT 2019-09-14 08:09 PM "

So you see nothing wrong with a very small group of people demanding the rest of the world accept the new meaning of a word they decided to hijack?

Wow.

What if conservatives suddenly decided they didn't like a word -- say, cat -- and demanded the rest of the world started calling them dogs? Would you support them and start calling cats dogs?

Or on a language level, what if a small percentage of English speakers decided they didn't like using the word "I" as the first person singular pronoun and decided "you" was better. Would you support them and start using "you" when referring to yourself?

If not, you are invoking a double standard.

#28 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 08:13 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

My suspicion is that the majority of people who have a problem with this are either: over 50 years old; or deeply conservative. Or both.

POSTED BY MODER8 AT 2019-09-14 08:09 PM | REPLY.

All they are are inconsiderate rubes is all.

#29 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-14 08:18 PM | Reply

"All they are are inconsiderate rubes is all.
#29 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR "

Do you ever actually have an original thought? All I ever see from you is agreement with someone on yourside, or name calling and both with a lot of consequitive letters as if a single key on your keyboards is stuck.

If you think everyone is an inconsiderate rube, tell us why. Don't just vomit out a lame pseudo-insult..

#30 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 08:23 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

This "new speak" stuff is pure Orwellian. But these cranks do not have any influence out side of their ivory towers. When and if one of these snowflakes get a job, let's see how seriously they are taken. Come on, did you watch the convention of "Democratic Socialist"? Jazz hands and non-binary speech with snowflakes running the show. Good Lord, do they see how stupid they look to the rest of us?

#31 | Posted by docnjo at 2019-09-14 08:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Sorry, life does not provide you with a tailor made safe space. Adapt or perish.

#32 | Posted by docnjo at 2019-09-14 08:29 PM | Reply

--Sorry, life does not provide you with a tailor made safe space. Adapt or perish.

Not unless you're a self-indulgent "pop star."

#33 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-14 08:35 PM | Reply

Well, as I translate into German, he will be 'er' or 'es'. He will not be 'wir' and not 'Sie'.

I've done translstions for years. It doesn't work outside of English.

#34 | Posted by Petrous at 2019-09-14 08:44 PM | Reply

Disagreeing with you doesn't make me wrong.

It's not mere "disagreement" when you claim something has a "universally accepted meaning" when it, in fact, also means the thing you're railing against, and has for many hundreds of years.

This is the problem with Trumpers (you are one, even though you deny it). They think their incorrect version of reality is just a difference of opinion. They think when they are proven to be objectively incorrect they're being "stalked" or "insulted." Or, at least, they pretend to be.

#35 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-14 08:45 PM | Reply

"This is the problem with Trumpers (you are one, even though you deny it)"

Stopped reading there. I'm not in the mood for dealing with your logical fallacies tonight. And assigning a false position to me is a logical fallacy.

Clearly, you can't make a valid argument without logical fallacies or name calling. Why is that?

#36 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 08:47 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Stopped reading there

Stopped reading there.

#37 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-14 08:53 PM | Reply

"Stopped reading there.

#37 | POSTED BY JOE AT 2019-09-14 08:53 PM "

Too bad. I guess you'll be forever relegated to logical fallacies and name calling.

Someone said you were a lawyer. I find that extremely difficult to believe considering your strong reliance on logical fallacy and name calling. Surely a real lawyer could debate better than you do.

#38 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 09:05 PM | Reply

I am an apostate. There are only two genders. There are only Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Straight or celibate. That is all that is possible, the rest is window dressing.

#39 | Posted by docnjo at 2019-09-14 09:11 PM | Reply

The entire concept of changing the language ...

Language changes every day. Maybe you're the one being a snowflake.

#40 | Posted by rcade at 2019-09-14 09:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I've heard of singular they when you don't know who you're talking about as long as i've heard words.

Same here. And for most of my adult life I've written for a living. The number of complaints I got for using a singular "they" in all of that time? Zero.

Some people are just like President Crankypants, sitting around waiting for the TV to tell them something to be angry about.

It doesn't affect my life in any way that Sam Smith prefers to be called "they" and "them" instead of "he" and "him". I think it's a simple matter of respect to give them that identification when talking about them.

#41 | Posted by rcade at 2019-09-14 09:15 PM | Reply

#38 I responded to your "points" with facts and history that directly contradict what you said. And every time that happens, you latch onto some insignificant piece of my post and use it as an escape hatch to end the debate. Nobody cares about anything else you say afterwards. Your tactics are transparent.

#42 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-14 09:25 PM | Reply

I'll dive into the language argument too.

"Someone just crashed into that tree! I think they're drunk!"

Here, "they" is used as an ambiguous pronoun since we don't know the gender of the subject.

What would triggered conservatives say in this situation? "I think he or she is drunk?"

#43 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-14 09:31 PM | Reply

"The entire concept of changing the language and causing confusion"

Yo're not confused.
You're just being intolerant.

#44 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-14 09:33 PM | Reply

From Monty Python's "Life of Brian"

Francis: Why are you always on about women, Stan?

Stan: I want to be one.

Reg: What?

Stan: I want to be a woman. From now on, I want you all to call me 'Loretta'.

Reg: What?

Stan: It's my right as a man.

Judith: Well, why do you want to be Loretta, Stan?

Stan: I want to have babies.

Reg: You want to have babies?

Stan: It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.

Reg: But... you can't have babies!

Stan: Don't you oppress me!

Reg: I'm not oppressing you, Stan! You haven't got a womb! Where's the foetus going to gestate? You going to keep it in a box?

Stan: [starts to cry]

#45 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 09:35 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"I think it's a simple matter of respect to give them that identification when talking about them.

#41 | POSTED BY RCADE "

Sorry, I'm not going to google every person I refer to to determine how he identifies if I'm unsure. If he is clearly male, I will use masculine pronouns.

Sue me, or like Stan/Loretta in above post, cry about it.

#46 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 09:38 PM | Reply

"Sorry, I'm not going to google every person I refer to to determine how he identifies if I'm unsure."

Is that what happened here, you wanted to address Sam Smith, so you googled which pronoun to use?

That's funny.

#47 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-14 09:40 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Yo're not confused.
You're just being intolerant.

#44 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

I didn't say I was confused. I said it (using the wrong pronoun) causes confusion.

Once again, snoofygames (tm) bombs a thread. This time by lying about what I said and assigning a false position to me.

#48 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 09:41 PM | Reply

"I didn't say I was confused. I said it (using the wrong pronoun) causes confusion."

Nobody's confused.

#49 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-14 09:42 PM | Reply

"And every time that happens, you latch onto some insignificant piece of my post and use it as an escape hatch to end the debate.

#42 | POSTED BY JOE "

Wrong. I'm very consistent about calling people out on name calling and logical fallacies. You must do some *very* selective reading to not know this. You have engaged in both and I chose not to engage

That itself is strange because if I do engage in lies and logical fallacies that someone else initiates, I am accused of hijacking a thread. But if choose not to engage that garbage, I am accused of running away or ending a debate. LOL

Damned if I do, damned if I don't. Before anyone accuses me of claiming victimhood, I'm not. I'm simply stating facts. Feel free to rebut them.

#50 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 09:46 PM | Reply

Sorry, I'm not going to google every person I refer to to determine how he identifies if I'm unsure.

No one expects that. They just ask that you use their personal pronouns after you've become aware of them, which costs you nothing.

If you can't handle this, how would you handle having a transgender relative?

#51 | Posted by rcade at 2019-09-14 10:32 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

#50 At the end of the day your statements in the thread were proven incorrect, and rather than either admit that or engage in debate you chose to latch onto something you perceived as ad hominem that you felt permitted you to avoid being wrong. No need to sugarcoat it or pretend you're above namecalling; the thread is here for anyone to read.

#52 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-14 10:36 PM | Reply

"If you can't handle this, how would you handle having a transgender relative?

#51 | POSTED BY RCADE "

I never said I had a problem with anyone's sexuality. I never said I couldn't handle that. In fact I even said I don't care what he does in the bedroom. Twice in this thread, I think, and several times on other threads through out the years. So obviously I would have no problem with a transgender relative.

My problem, which I thought I had made clear, is the misuse of the English language inciting confusion. Secondarily, I find it problematic that the LGBT comminity deands changes in our languate when they once claimed they wanted to be treatd like everyone else. They said they didn't want to be treated differently. Well, I, and most everyone else calls a person who has a penis "him". To do otherwise would be treating them differently.

#53 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 10:47 PM | Reply

"My problem, which I thought I had made clear, is the misuse of the English language inciting confusion."

Nobody's confused.

#54 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-14 11:11 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The English language is so sacred that if you took an someone from south Boston, someone from Vicksburg MS, someone from Scotland, an Aussie and a Brit ... and put all 5 of them all in a room, they'd all sound like they came from 5 different solar systems.

The Queen's English? Hardly ~

#55 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-14 11:21 PM | Reply

"Nobody's confused.

#54 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

Argumentum ad populum.

I would be confused if someone referred to one person as "'they". I would assume they are talking about more than one person. I'm pretty sure I am not alone in this.

#56 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 11:22 PM | Reply

"The English language is so sacred that if you took an someone from south Boston, someone from Vicksburg MS, someone from Scotland, an Aussie and a Brit ... and put all 5 of them all in a room, they'd all sound like they came from 5 different solar systems.
The Queen's English? Hardly ~

POSTED BY PINCHALOAF"

Strawman.

No one is talking about they way they sound. They all use "they" as third person plural regardless their accent.

#57 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-14 11:23 PM | Reply

If you can't handle this, how would you handle having a transgender relative?

POSTED BY RCADE AT 2019-09-14 10:32 PM | REPLY

It's been my experience the ones who can't handle it usually disowns the transgender person.

#58 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-14 11:32 PM | Reply

"I would be confused if someone referred to one person as "'they""

Well then you're now contradicting what you said earlier:

"Yo're not confused.
You're just being intolerant.
#44 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "
I didn't say I was confused. I said it (using the wrong pronoun) causes confusion."

^
Now you're saying you are confused.

#59 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-15 12:07 AM | Reply

And even if you are confused, so what?
It's not hard to figure out.
In fact, it's amazingly easy to figure out.

#60 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-15 12:08 AM | Reply

I'm fine with respecting Sam's wishes.

#61 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2019-09-15 09:05 AM | Reply

I never said I had a problem with anyone's sexuality. I never said I couldn't handle that. In fact I even said I don't care what he does in the bedroom.

Being transgender isn't about sexuality. It's about gender.

I think an important part of life is adjusting to people around you whose lives don't always make you comfortable. When I was a child I remember seeing TV reports on Renee Richards and being unnerved by the idea of sex reassignment. But these days it's completely normal to me. I'm happy that people like Laura are living lives that are more truthful to them and hope they get the tolerance, acceptance and compassion that everybody would want for themselves.

#62 | Posted by rcade at 2019-09-15 09:07 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Wouldn't it be less confusing to just have a thirds set of singular pronouns for non-binary folks? If heard things like xie, xer, xers floated. That seems linguistically more sound than using a set of plural pronouns to refer to a single person.

#64 | Posted by Karabekian at 2019-09-15 10:06 AM | Reply

Never heard of this guy, gal, whatever. He's a pop star? How can you be a "star" when no one knows who you are? What's it take to be a "star" these days? A dozen facebook friends?

#7 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN AT 2019-09-14 03:22 PM | FLAG:

Yeah, you're probably right.

(Googles Sam Smith)

Hmm, 20 million albums sold as of October 2018. www.officialcharts.com

Hmm... YouTube views often exceed 1 billion, such as "Stay With Me," youtu.be

Well, maybe you're right about the number of Facebook friends.

Hmm, 6.1 million. www.facebook.com

Nope. Turns out you're just out of touch. Who would have guessed?

#65 | Posted by cbob at 2019-09-15 10:09 AM | Reply | Funny: 3

Wouldn't it be less confusing to just have a thirds set of singular pronouns for non-binary folks? If heard things like xie, xer, xers floated. That seems linguistically more sound than using a set of plural pronouns to refer to a single person.

#64 | POSTED BY KARABEKIAN AT 2019-09-15 10:06 AM | FLAG:

I agree with this.

#66 | Posted by cbob at 2019-09-15 10:10 AM | Reply

How can you be a "star" when no one knows who you are?

Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean no one has, grandpa. Sam Smith has been famous in pop music since "Stay with Me" in 2014.

#67 | Posted by rcade at 2019-09-15 10:15 AM | Reply

--such as "Stay With Me," youtu.be

Never heard of it until today. But I just tried to watch that. Couldn't stand more than a minute of that high-pitched falsetto voice.

#68 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-15 10:27 AM | Reply

-such as "Stay With Me," youtu.be

Never heard of it until today. But I just tried to watch that. Couldn't stand more than a minute of that high-pitched falsetto voice.

#68 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN AT 2019-09-15 10:27 AM | FLAG:

Well, I didn't say I was a fan. My teenage daughters are though!

#69 | Posted by cbob at 2019-09-15 10:37 AM | Reply

#63 | POSTED BY 1947STEAMER

Is that how you would wish to be treated?

How soon them Deplorables forget the Golden Rule!

I will tell you how soon.

As soon as they meet someone different than themselves.

#70 | Posted by donnerboy at 2019-09-15 10:38 AM | Reply

--Well, I didn't say I was a fan. My teenage daughters are though!

lol. I rest my case.

#71 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-15 10:43 AM | Reply

What I wonder is how are we to know everyone's preferred pronoun?

Maybe when you introduce yourself to someone, it should be your responsibility to include a prefix to they name at that time, otherwise them have no grounds for complaining.

Or how about a genetic pronoun much like Ms. that doesn't offend and doesn't border on rediculous.

#72 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2019-09-15 11:04 AM | Reply

As soon as they meet someone different than themselves.

If I meet someone, anyone for the first time, and they don't know my name, I am not offended.

Call someone the improper pronoun, because you don't know them and they lose their ----, even worse in Canada you might be breaking the law.

#73 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-15 11:25 AM | Reply

#63 | POSTED BY 1947STEAMER

I'm curious what that means to you. How do you handle people with psychiatric problems? Do you intentionally refuse to accommodate them?

#74 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-15 11:50 AM | Reply

Old people tend to be out of touch. They assume that what was cool and popular when they were young is still what is cool and popular. Sam Smith is a major musical star in the current world.

#75 | Posted by moder8 at 2019-09-15 12:05 PM | Reply

#75 Elvis will always be the coolest, Daddy-o.

#76 | Posted by Karabekian at 2019-09-15 12:07 PM | Reply

-- Sam Smith is a major musical star in the current world.

So is Justin Bieber. Argumentum ad populum isn't as persuasive to me as it to you.

#77 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-15 12:12 PM | Reply

Couldn't stand more than a minute of that high-pitched falsetto voice.

I'm not a Sam Smith fan either, to be honest. If I want moody pop music I prefer Adele or Rihanna. But I prefer alt-rock and Americana over pop anyway.

#78 | Posted by rcade at 2019-09-15 12:17 PM | Reply

1947steamer: Being transgender is not a psychiatric problem. We're not going to allow anti-transgender hate here.

#79 | Posted by rcade at 2019-09-15 12:18 PM | Reply

Argumentum ad populum isn't as persuasive to me as it to you.

What's the Latin name for the argument "someone can't be famous if I never heard of them"?

#80 | Posted by rcade at 2019-09-15 12:20 PM | Reply

--What's the Latin name for the argument "someone can't be famous if I never heard of them"?

Argumentum ad humor

#81 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-15 12:22 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

Mod,

"Sam Smith is a major musical star in the current world."

Only someone naive would think that's important.

Shut up and sing....that's my motto.

#82 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2019-09-15 12:30 PM | Reply

Sam Smith is a major musical star in the current world.
#75 | POSTED BY MODER8

Well if he wasn't, he is now ..... welcome to the new age of OutrageMarketing ... Beto is doing this as well....

#83 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-15 12:36 PM | Reply

I am an apostate. There are only two genders. There are only Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Straight or celibate. That is all that is possible, the rest is window dressing.
#39 | Posted by docnjo

Gay and lesbian are the same thing.

The funny thing is that you don't even realize the evolution.

60 years ago, there was straight and deviant.

40 years ago, there was straight and gay.

20 years ago, there was straight, gay and celibate.

Now, well.....

Evolution, my dear, get used to it.

#84 | Posted by truthhurts at 2019-09-15 12:36 PM | Reply

Evolution, my dear, get used to it.

#84 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS

Thats not Evolution .. its marketing

#85 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-15 12:39 PM | Reply

It must be difficult for anyone who has to work with celebrities when they begin believing their own PR, the groupies who worship them, and the hanger-ons who just want their money kissing their....

#86 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2019-09-15 12:42 PM | Reply

ell if he wasn't, he is now ..... welcome to the new age of OutrageMarketing ... Beto is doing this as well....
#83 | Posted by AndreaMackris

I'll take that over FecalMarketing, promoted by your favorite "President"

#87 | Posted by truthhurts at 2019-09-15 12:42 PM | Reply

Thats not Evolution .. its marketing
#85 | Posted by AndreaMackris

It's understanding, something you wouldn't understand.

#88 | Posted by truthhurts at 2019-09-15 12:44 PM | Reply

Truth,

"Gay and lesbian are the same thing."

Really?

Not for some.

Lesbian is preferred by some women.

Thus...LGTB.

#89 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2019-09-15 12:50 PM | Reply

It's understanding, something you wouldn't understand.
#88 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS

Intelligence is the ability to make distinctions, you seem to believe re-branding something is "evolution" ....

Perhaps its marketing you don't understand.

#90 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-15 01:08 PM | Reply

#89 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

Truthy is a person that thinks they know something, to feel good about himself .... given my exchange with him, and your breakdown of his post, its clear he doesn't know what he's talking about.

#91 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-15 01:10 PM | Reply

Andrea,

You know good and well it is true that some gay women feel strongly about being referred to as lesbian.

I won't get into a semantics argument because I'm not an expert but I have seen and read how some gay women feel pretty strongly about the
"lesbian" title.

Just a simple "gay and lesbian are the same thing" that was posted is too simplistic.

The word lesbian has a meaning and connotation simply calling women gay doesn't capture.

#92 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2019-09-15 01:32 PM | Reply

Andrea,

I'm a dunce....I reread your post.

Sorry.

#93 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2019-09-15 01:33 PM | Reply

Time to hang up the keyboard.

Packing for extended vacation.

Me and wife going out of the country for a few weeks.

#94 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2019-09-15 01:35 PM | Reply

#93 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

Happens to the best of us ... no worries, have a great vaca! :-)

#95 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-15 01:46 PM | Reply

Intelligence is the ability to make distinctions, you seem to believe re-branding something is "evolution" ....
Perhaps its marketing you don't understand.
#90 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-15 01:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

#89 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON
Truthy is a person that thinks they know something, to feel good about himself .... given my exchange with him, and your breakdown of his post, its clear he doesn't know what he's talking about.
#91 | Posted by AndreaMackris

Actually, intelligence is the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.

See I just demonstrated intelligence by acquiring knowledge (definition of intelligence) and applying it (to your lack of intelligence).

You have been educated.

#96 | Posted by truthhurts at 2019-09-15 02:44 PM | Reply

Truth,
"Gay and lesbian are the same thing."
Really?
Not for some.
Lesbian is preferred by some women.
Thus...LGTB.

#89 | Posted by BillJohnson

www.glaad.org

Gay
The adjective used to describe people whose enduring physical, romantic, and/ or emotional attractions are to people of the same sex (e.g., gay man, gay people).

I will allow that some gay women prefer the term lesbian.

And as such, my original point was overly broad.

Of course that does not refute, in any way the fact that sexual orientation has evolved as a greater understanding of the topic has emerged.

#97 | Posted by truthhurts at 2019-09-15 02:49 PM | Reply

www.buzzworthy.com

Native Americans Used To Recognize Not Two, Not Three ... But Five Genders

Two Spirits, Five Genders"Two Spirit" is a blanket term, and one that wasn't even widely used until the late 20th century, but it describes the -----------, transgender, and gender fluid individuals who were accepted and well respected in many Native American societies. The term "Two Spirit" comes from the idea that everyone has both a male and female spirit within their body, and a person's identity comes not from their physical form, but from whichever of the two spirits is more dominant within them. Sometimes, the two spirits were equals, or changed which one was dominant many times, and it's important to note that being Two Spirited is an observation on gender, but not sexual orientation.Different Native nations had different words for Two Spirit individuals, and not all of them can be easily translated into English. In the Cherokee Nation, for example, the word asegi is a blanket term, with more specific words to describe male-assigned and female-assigned people. In Inuit culture, the term sipiniq roughly translates to "infant whose sex changes at birth", and in the language of the Lakota, winkte is the term used for male-bodied people who live as women, and bloka egla wa ke is the term for Two Spirited people born female. In Navajo society, the term is nadleehe, which means "one who is in a constant state of change" or "one who is transforming".

#98 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-15 02:52 PM | Reply

"Well, I didn't say I was a fan. My teenage daughters are though!

lol. I rest my case.

#71 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN AT 2019-09-15 10:43 AM | REPLY

You rest your case? lol back at ya!

How does the fact that someone's music is not my or your personal taste equate to not being a big star?

I've never liked KISS or Billy Joel or the Backstreet Boys. That doesn't mean they're not big stars.

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but stardom is not defined by the level of awareness and/or approval held by a bitter old man who calls himself Nullifidian.

#99 | Posted by cbob at 2019-09-15 03:12 PM | Reply

I've never liked KISS or Billy Joel or the Backstreet Boys. That doesn't mean they're not big stars.

Doesn't mean you have to like them, but you have heard of them ....

I would consider anyone on this list to be a Star....
en.wikipedia.org

I don't see MrSmith.

#100 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-15 03:39 PM | Reply

#101 Still curious how you treat people who you believe have psychological disorders. Do you make any attempt to accommodate them? Do you actively and intentionally fail to do so?

#102 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-15 05:01 PM | Reply

"but it's the fact that they demand that others participate in their fantasy."

Demand?
Not feeling it.
It's not really any different from Trump hereby ordering American companies to stop doing business with China.
You think people have a problem ignoring that demand to participate in Trump's fantasy?

#104 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-15 05:09 PM | Reply

#103 and 105 interesting, thanks for sharing.

#106 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-15 05:14 PM | Reply

Still not feeling it.
People are supposed to laugh when you tell a joke...

I'm okay with letting people decide what made-up gender they want to claim. I literally see no downside. Who even cares?

#107 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-15 05:14 PM | Reply

Laura are living lives that are more truthful to them and hope they get the tolerance, acceptance and compassion that everybody would want for themselves.

#62 | POSTED BY RCADE AT 2019-09-15 09:07 AM | FLAG:

Mentally psychologically emotionally I'm in a much better place. Physically I wish I had Larry's stamina.

#108 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-15 05:15 PM | Reply

#110 | POSTED BY 1947STEAMER

At this point in your date, he's letting you know what to expect later on.

#111 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-09-15 05:31 PM | Reply

"if you mean just ignore their requests as if you'd ignore trump's, then i'd point to RCADE's removal of my earlier post."

But you did the opposite of ignoring it by posting about it, now didn't you?
That's right.

#112 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-15 05:32 PM | Reply

Twice this past week we rode in the Harvey Milk streetcar up and down the Embarcadero in San Fran without any problems.

In fact, it seemed like a 'normal' streetcar in every way. it was cleaner, maybe softer seats.

*thumbs up*

#113 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-09-15 05:33 PM | Reply

"i suggest that you're much closer to being a homophobe than i am"

you freaking out over non-binary pronouns suggests otherwise.

#116 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-15 05:45 PM | Reply

What did you post, that got removed, that you're still emotionally attached to?

#117 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-15 05:52 PM | Reply

i have many gay friends

I would bet a tremendous amount of money that you don't.

#119 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-15 06:29 PM | Reply

I asked upthread, but got no response, so I'll ask again:

Why doesn't the LGBTQ community just come up with a gender neutral 3rd person singular pronoun instead of hijacking the 3PP one? The concept worked when Mrs. and Miss became politically incorrect and now all women are Ms. Why not do the same for the LGBTQ folks? Something like zsee, (subject) zsim, (object) zsis (possessive) the zsh sounding like Zsa Zsa Gabor's name

But of course with 100 genders, members of 99 of them would bitch and all want their own pronouns. But my suggestion is a start.

#121 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-15 07:25 PM | Reply

Why doesn't the LGBTQ community just come up with a gender neutral 3rd person singular pronoun instead of hijacking the 3PP one?

Because triggered bigots would mock it relentlessly and/or pretend to be offended by the inconvenience and/or intentionally disregard the trans person's wishes regardless?

Stop pretending the objection is language. "Singular they" has been a thing for centueies.

#122 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-15 07:29 PM | Reply

Centuries, too

#123 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-15 07:29 PM | Reply

what's your point, that i can't have an opinion that conflicts with your homosexual sensibilities and not be a homophobe?

No, i jut have a very hard time believing that anyone who has "many" gay friends would spend days arguing in defense of his resistance to using someone's preferred pronouns.

#124 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-15 07:30 PM | Reply

"No, i jut have a very hard time believing that anyone who has "many" gay friends would spend days arguing in defense of his resistance to using someone's preferred pronouns.

#124 | POSTED BY JOE "

What's so hard about understanding that having gay friends has nothing nto do with the desire to keep people from altering the English language for personal? The two are completely unrelated.

I also have gay friends and a gay cousin I'm very close to. But I am against anyone, gay or not, of trying to change the language, especially for selfish and personal reasons.

#125 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-15 07:35 PM | Reply

"Stop pretending the objection is language. "Singular they" has been a thing for centueies.

#122 | POSTED BY JOE AT 2019-09-15 07:29 PM "

So has thou and thee and "est" as the suffix for 1PS verb conjugations. But they are as rare as 1PS they.

#126 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-15 07:40 PM | Reply

What's the Latin name for the argument "someone can't be famous if I never heard of them"?

#80 | POSTED BY RCADE

Freddy Fender

#127 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-09-15 07:41 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

I've always referred to gay friends by their first names. Their sexuality takes a distant 5th place to how honest they are, how compassionate they are, how they treat others, and how loyal they are. Just like anyone else.

#128 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-09-15 07:42 PM | Reply

#127 | Posted by PinchALoaf

LOL!

#129 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-09-15 07:43 PM | Reply

Why doesn't the LGBTQ community just come up with a gender neutral 3rd person singular pronoun instead of hijacking the 3PP one?

Translation: My sensibilities and maturity have been harshed so could you lower your intellect to appease me.

#130 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-15 07:43 PM | Reply

What's so hard about understanding that having gay friends has nothing nto do with the desire to keep people from altering the English language for personal?

1. It's not an alteration; read the link i've already posted upthread that every conservative is pretending not to see.

2. It's hard to understand because someone with "many" gay friends would have a deep understanding of the struggles and bigotry that LGBTQ people face and would consider a pronoun issue to be such a comparatively minor aggression that they wouldn't spend days arguing about it.

#131 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-15 07:44 PM | Reply

"I... the royal we, you know, the editorial... I dropped off the money, exactly as per... Look, man I've got certain information alright? "

#132 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2019-09-15 07:44 PM | Reply

So has thou and thee and "est" as the suffix for 1PS verb conjugations.

So what? I wouldn't consider their proper use to be a hijacking either. What's your point?

#133 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-15 07:45 PM | Reply

"So what? I wouldn't consider their proper use to be a hijacking either. What's your point?

#133 | POSTED BY JOE "

My point is that they are asking to use the language in a way no one except a few arcane linguists are aware of.

What's wrong with them coming up with their own pronoun if they are so ------- freaked out about the word "he"?

#134 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-15 07:56 PM | Reply

arcane linguists

So, no response to #43 then?

#135 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-15 07:57 PM | Reply

What's wrong with them coming up with their own pronoun if they are so ------- freaked out about the word "he"?

I already answered that in #122. Any other repetitive questions?

#136 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-15 07:58 PM | Reply

"So, no response to #43 then?

#135 | POSTED BY JOE "

No. We are almost 100 posts past that. Do you really think I reply to all posts on a thread? LOL Get over yourself.

#137 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-15 08:06 PM | Reply

I don't understand why Sam's bedroom habits gives him the right to expect other people to use the wrong pronoun.

What's wrong with calling someone with a penis "he" anyway? Is it really that terrible? Why should people do it?

#138 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-15 08:15 PM | Reply

We are almost 100 posts past that.

So you ignore posts that are directly applicable to what you're saying, then run out the clock? At least you make it obvious how worthless it is to attempt dialogue with you.

I don't understand why Sam's bedroom habits gives him the right to expect other people to use the wrong pronoun.

Gender and pronoun have very little to do with bedroom habits. Your ignorance on the topic is unsurprising.

#139 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-15 09:26 PM | Reply

"So you ignore posts that are directly applicable to what you're saying, then run out the clock? "

On long threads I usually do not go back and read the posts that happened while I was offline. Or sometimes I skip by the ones by idiot posters.

What kind of hubris is it that demands someone explain their posting style? Once again I tell you, get over yourself.

#140 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-15 09:29 PM | Reply

"Gender and pronoun have very little to do with bedroom habits. Your ignorance on the topic is unsurprising.

#139 | POSTED BY JOE "

Exactly!

Thanks for supporting my point.

#141 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-15 09:30 PM | Reply

"but make NEW words that conform to the new reality...don't usurp long held linguistic practices in such a haphazard way."

That's not how the English language works.

Also, I'd suggest being non-binary isn't a new thing, it's just increasingly more accepted.

Personally I think the pronouns we've got aren't a problem, but if someone wants to be a they, I see no reason why I shouldn't accomodate that, or if I can't, just not be a part of their life. End of story.

#142 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-15 09:34 PM | Reply

On long threads I usually do not go back and read the posts that happened while I was offline. Or sometimes I skip by the ones by idiot posters.

Ok. In the meantime you're still making claims that have already been addressed upthread. It's not "hubris" to direct you to thiose posts rather than re-type something that you clearly have no intention of acknowledging anyway.

Thanks for supporting my point.

I didn't. You claimed bedroom habits have aome relevance to someone's preferred gender pronoun. You couldn't be more wrong.

#143 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-15 10:00 PM | Reply

I see no reason why I shouldn't accomodate that, or if I can't, just not be a part of their life. End of story.

Exactly. It's no skin off any of these peoples' back to call somekne "they," or "xe," or "zebra," or "neptune." They hide behind "but that word already means something else!" to justify their bad faith failure to accommodate that is clearly grounded in bigotry. It would actually be a lot quicker for them just to admit that.

#144 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-15 10:02 PM | Reply

" ...to accommodate that is clearly grounded in bigotry. It would actually be a lot quicker for them just to admit that.

#144 | POSTED BY JOE AT 2019-09-15 10:02 PM |"

Except that's not true. I am not a bigot.

Lying and using a logical fallacy does not enhance you argument one bit. In fact, it detracts and dilutes it because only someone unsure of their position has to resort to that kind of nonesense. Don't believe me? Read this:

"Name Calling and What It Implies - Be Careful What You Say About Yourself When You Resort To Name Calling "

activerain.com

I heard someone say you are a lawyer. Obviously this can't be true or you wouldn''t make such stupid claims. You would know that logical fallacies weaken an argument. These things should not have to be explained to a lawyer.

#145 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-15 10:32 PM | Reply

"I heard someone say you are a lawyer. Obviously this can't be true or you wouldn''t make such stupid claims."

Have you met RightOCenter?

He thinks seven more Republicans in the Senate will flip and vote to convict Trump.

Pretty sure he's really a lawyer, but what do I know.

#146 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-15 11:25 PM | Reply

Pretty sure he's really a lawyer, but what do I know.

Posted by snoofy

So was the character "My Cousin Vinny" Gambini, or real life attorneys from recent years:

- Joseph Caramadre, who scammed terminally ill patients and stole their assets
- John Milton Merritt, who stole money from injured orphans
- Texas lawyer Martin Zimmerman, who slept through his client's trial
- Thomas Lowe, who billed women he had sex with

God calls the Devil:

"Hey, you gotta fix the wall between Heaven and Hell. All your people are escaping through it."

"So sue me," says the Devil

"I think I will"

The Devil replies, "Ya, but where ya gonna find an attorney?"

#147 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-09-15 11:51 PM | Reply

literally who? is this satire? I can't tell anymore.

#148 | Posted by berserkone at 2019-09-16 01:18 AM | Reply

Lying and using a logical fallacy does not enhance you argument one bit.

Ignoring posts that are inconvenient for you and then pretending they don't exist does not enhance your argument either. Stop pretending you're in the business of good faith debate and you won't be called out for being such a douche.

Go ask your fake gay friends about gender pronouns. 1947Steamer has even more fake gay friends if you need a bigger sampling of fake gay people.

#149 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-16 01:59 AM | Reply

"Go ask your fake gay friends ...

#149 | POSTED BY JOE "

You do not know my gay friends and therefore cannot assign them the false attributes of being fake.

How sad you have to resort to dishonesty to make a point. Says a lot about you and your frail sense of self esteem, not to mention your inability to rebut with facts.

#150 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-16 02:03 AM | Reply

Never heard of this guy, gal, whatever. He's a pop star? How can you be a "star" when no one knows who you are? What's it take to be a "star" these days? A dozen facebook friends?
#7 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN AT 2019-09-14 03:22 PM | FLAG:
Yeah, you're probably right.
(Googles Sam Smith)
Hmm, 20 million albums sold as of October 2018. www.officialcharts.com
Hmm... YouTube views often exceed 1 billion, such as "Stay With Me," youtu.be
Well, maybe you're right about the number of Facebook friends.
Hmm, 6.1 million. www.facebook.com
Nope. Turns out you're just out of touch. Who would have guessed?

#65 | POSTED BY CBOB

Hilarious post, but in truth, I've never heard of the guy either.

#151 | Posted by CrisisStills at 2019-09-16 05:12 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

You do not know my gay friends and therefore cannot assign them the false attributes of being fake.

Sorry, bot buying it. Gays don't hang out with people who spend days arguing about how they don't want to accommodate someone's pronoun. That's what ------ relatives at Thanksgiving are for.

#152 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-16 09:20 AM | Reply

I see no problem with using "they" and "them" to refer to a hypothetical person who could be of any gender. Taking those on as your own identifying pronouns seems like a step away from insisting you want to be identified as "we" and "our royal highness."

#153 | Posted by sentinel at 2019-09-16 09:34 AM | Reply

"No one expects that. They just ask that you use their personal pronouns after you've become aware of them, which costs you nothing."

However, berating others for not accepting something that's only slightly less silly than something you'd probably balk at yourselves does cost you elections...

#154 | Posted by sentinel at 2019-09-16 09:57 AM | Reply

I try to be courteous and were I to meet this guy in person I would address him the way in which he asks to be addressed.

Where I draw the line is this new Orwellian group-speak (popping up at some universities) whereby it is demanded that ALL people be referred to with gender-neutral pronouns.

Um, no. I'm not going to comply with that.

#155 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-16 10:07 AM | Reply

Sorry, bot buying it. Gays don't hang out with people who spend days arguing about how they don't want to accommodate someone's pronoun. That's what ------ relatives at Thanksgiving are for.

#152 | POSTED BY JOE

Intersectionality is stupid. There are plenty of gay people who think obsessing over pronouns and attempting to redefine the English language is stupid.

#156 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-16 10:09 AM | Reply

Where I draw the line is this new Orwellian group-speak (popping up at some universities) whereby it is demanded that ALL people be referred to with gender-neutral pronouns.

Where has that happened?

attempting to redefine the English language is stupid

Another guy who refuses to read post #19. I should start a tally.

#157 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-16 10:11 AM | Reply

Where has that happened?

At a number of universities.

#158 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-16 10:45 AM | Reply

Never heard of this guy, gal, whatever. He's a pop star? How can you be a "star" when no one knows who you are? What's it take to be a "star" these days? A dozen facebook friends?

#7 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

So is Justin Bieber. Argumentum ad populum isn't as persuasive to me as it to you.

#77 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

Uhhh... you know that its not a logical fallacy to talk about how popular someone is, WHEN YOU ARE ARGUING ABOUT WHETHER THEY ARE POPULAR.

I know... you want to be as cool as Goat and fling logical fallacies at people. But, to do that, you have to actually understand what a logical fallacy is. Otherwise you just look like an idiot.

#159 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-09-16 11:25 AM | Reply

Call someone the improper pronoun, because you don't know them and they lose their ----, even worse in Canada you might be breaking the law.

#73 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS

I would suggest that you use the singular "they" for everyone, then you wouldn't get caught making a faux pas with androgynous people (and not necessarily people who are TRYING to be androgynous). I have definitely met people where it was difficult to distinguish gender without them trying to be ambiguous. If it were common to use "they" then it would not be a problem.

But the conservative snowflakes on this thread are completely triggered by the idea of it (and, as you phrase it, "lose their ----") so you are probably stuck without a good solution other than flipping a coin.

#160 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-09-16 11:32 AM | Reply

Where has that happened?
At a number of universities.

#158 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Is that number greater than zero?

If it is, can you post a list. Or even one name?

#161 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-09-16 11:43 AM | Reply

#161

www.mtsu.edu

www.forbes.com

Google "university speech codes".

This is not a new topic.

#162 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-16 11:51 AM | Reply

#162 Neither of your links evidence a "demand that all people be referred to with gender-neutral pronouns," as you originally claimed.

Do you even know this is happening or are you just regurgitating another stupid thing you heard on the radio?

#163 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-16 11:55 AM | Reply

--If it is, can you post a list. Or even one name?

It's foolish to play this eternal DR Left game of demanding something be proven that has been well-documented on the Retort dozens if not hundreds of times. You're either well-informed on this topic by now or you never will be.

#164 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-09-16 11:56 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Time for me to do a post and run.

Those who ate upset about the "misuse of language" (in this thread, goat) know little of linguistic history.

Language adapts to, and is shaped by society. It is not, nor has it ever been static.

Otherwise, I'd be wishing God grant ye morrow, all ye gentile weremans an womans.

#165 | Posted by RevDarko at 2019-09-16 11:56 AM | Reply

Good for Sam! Takes a lot of courage to come out and I truly respect him for that! The folks who are criticizing him would never listen to his music anyway. His fans will still support him and he, rightly, doesn't give a crap about the critics.
#5 | Posted by danni at 2019-09-14 03:14 PM

Why are you being so damn inconsiderate and tone deaf?

#166 | Posted by Avigdore at 2019-09-16 12:06 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Here you go Joe,

Two weeks ago I posted three YouTube videos about legislative threats to Canadian freedom of speech. I singled out Canada's Federal Bill C-16, which adds legal protection for "gender identity" and "gender expression" to the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Criminal code.

thehill.com

What happens when you misgender someone, is this our future? Play this without the visual .... CRAZY ...
www.youtube.com

#167 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-16 12:11 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Language adapts to, and is shaped by society. It is not, nor has it ever been static.

But the purpose of language is to define better the world. Using "they" is confusing. Evolutionary wise, this is an experiment that will probably fail, because its more confusing than clarifying. Nothing to do with the individuals preferences

#168 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-16 12:15 PM | Reply

#162 Neither of your links evidence a "demand that all people be referred to with gender-neutral pronouns," as you originally claimed.
Do you even know this is happening or are you just regurgitating another stupid thing you heard on the radio?

#163 | POSTED BY JOE

FFS.

Oxford University students 'told to use gender neutral pronoun ze'

www.independent.co.uk

Like I said, this isn't new. Are you actually unaware of this crap or are you just being combative for the sake of being a dick?

#169 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-16 12:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#167 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS

You hear a mans voice in the video I posted, and you are supposed reply in the feminine. Completely out of known contexts. Notice the jerk shows no empathy for how confusing that is for people who have had a lifetime of genderfication.

This is my problem with it, not that you want to be called something else. But that you show no tolerance for those that want to do nothing but the right thing, haven't adjusted or can't do it perfectly the 1 time in their life, and get socially castigated for it.

From that perspective its --------!

#170 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-16 12:20 PM | Reply

Are you actually unaware of this crap or are you just being combative for the sake of being a dick?

He is unaware and a being a dick, but Sam Smith is a star ....

#171 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2019-09-16 12:21 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Oxford University students 'told to use gender neutral pronoun ze'

A leaflet distributed by a student union in another country?

Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

#172 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-16 12:35 PM | Reply

A leaflet distributed by a student union in another country?
Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

#172 | POSTED BY JOE

Mackris provided other examples.

Again, this is not new. If you are actually interested in this subject I gave 2 Google search suggestions.

#173 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-09-16 12:43 PM | Reply

Here's my 2 cents, thank you for asking:

Incredibly petty of anyone with strong feelings on either side of this debate.

Got a dick? He. Totally ok to be a he that feels like a she. That's called a he that feels like a she, fairly common occurence. A she that feels like a he? That's a she that feels like a he. Again, not uncommon or new at all. A he or she that doesn't think they feel like either? That's exactly ------- called. Both sides need to get over themselves. Sticks and stones, you know.

Making a big public announcement as a minor celebrity about it? That's called narcissism.

#174 | Posted by Ottodog at 2019-09-16 12:51 PM | Reply

Mackris provided other examples.

Of pending legislation in Canada that provides protections for gender identity - not of "demand that all people be referred to with gender-neutral pronouns."

#175 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-16 12:57 PM | Reply

"Call someone the improper pronoun, because you don't know them and they lose their ----"

I know several non gender conforming people. And I've messed up every single one of their preferred pronouns at first. They corrected me, I acknowledged the correction, and we moved on with the conversation. Because they knew my error wasn't malicious or part of some kind of intentionally passive aggressive political rant. My guess is that by the time you used the wrong pronoun you'd already come off as an intolerant douchebag, which would explain their reported overreaction. If you're talking about your personal experience and not just making things up of course.

#176 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2019-09-16 01:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Oxford University students 'told to use gender neutral pronoun ze'"

As "outrageous" as Trump hereby ordering American companies to not do business with China.

Easily laughed off and ignored by people with literally anything better to worry about.

Find something and someone better to worry about than Sam Smith. I don't even know who Sam Smith is, do you?

#177 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-16 01:16 PM | Reply

"I see no problem with using "they" and "them" to refer to a hypothetical person who could be of any gender. Taking those on as your own identifying pronouns seems like a step away from insisting you want to be identified as "we" and "our royal highness."

Exactly.

Nobody is confused when actual royalty refers to themselves as "we." It might seem awkward but we all accept royalty's use of the royal we.

But when Sam Smith tries something similar... Look out, here comes the Redneck Pronoun Brigade!

#178 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-16 01:27 PM | Reply

In case you hadn't noticed, people mock royalty all the time, except in places where they have draconian rules about that. And it's never wise to pick fights with grammar nazis. That rarely ends well.

#179 | Posted by sentinel at 2019-09-16 01:36 PM | Reply

People that use the term "coloreds" are dying out, and they're being replaced with people say she/he.

#180 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2019-09-16 01:44 PM | Reply

Dear Sam Smith,

Thanks for making more swing voters vote republican, idiot.

Love,

The dying planet and all the innocent suffering people republican government harms.

#181 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-09-16 02:01 PM | Reply

But when Sam Smith tries something similar... Look out, here comes the Redneck Pronoun Brigade!

#178 | Posted by snoofy

So to make sam smith feel better, we're going to destroy the difference between singular and plural?

This is the crap that makes normal people hate liberals and elect trump.

#182 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-09-16 02:02 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"So to make sam smith feel better, we're going to destroy the difference between singular and plural?"

99% of the people here wouldn't even notice a number discrepancy if they saw it written down and are only complaining because they have some kind of political ax to grind.

#183 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2019-09-16 02:16 PM | Reply

So to make the queen feel better, we're going to destroy the difference between singular and plural?

#184 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-16 02:22 PM | Reply

In case you hadn't noticed, people mock non-binary all the time.

#185 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-16 02:23 PM | Reply

#183 Stop saying they!!!!!

-cuckservatives

#186 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-16 02:30 PM | Reply

In case you hadn't noticed, people mock non-binary all the time.

#185 | Posted by snoofy

People mock ridiculousness. This crap is ridiculous.

If you need a new word, make a new word. Dont ruin the proper usage of existing words.

#187 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-09-16 02:41 PM | Reply

"So to make the queen feel better, we're going to destroy the difference between singular and plural?"

The meaning of this sentence really hinges on the existence or absence of a capital Q.

#188 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2019-09-16 02:54 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#188 Good one!

#189 | Posted by goatman at 2019-09-16 02:56 PM | Reply

Dont ruin the proper usage of existing words.

I thought you were better at reading than the bigots on the DR.

public.oed.com

#190 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-16 03:03 PM | Reply

I thought you were better at reading than the bigots on the DR.

public.oed.com

#190 | Posted by JOE

Do you think the average swing voter is going to take the classic orgin of words into consideration when they see this on fox news, or are they just going to see it as more evidence that liberals are crazy and hell bent on changing things that dont need changing?

I dont care about labels and genders and hurt feelings. I care about keeping sociopaths out of office. This crap helps sociopaths win elections.

#191 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-09-16 03:06 PM | Reply

"If you need a new word, make a new word. Dont ruin the proper usage of existing words."

First, people can say what they want.
Second, it's not an improper use.
Third, it doesn't ruin other uses.

You managed to pack a lot of hurt feelings into those two sentences!

#192 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-16 03:08 PM | Reply

#191 It's not just classic origin. It's continued use through and including today.

But you said this was about "changing the meaning of words." Now you're moving the goalposts. Let me know when you're done.

#193 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-16 03:09 PM | Reply

But you said this was about "changing the meaning of words." Now you're moving the goalposts. Let me know when you're done.

#193 | Posted by JOE

It is to the average person. To the average person, does THEY mean multiple people or not?

When they hear liberals now want THEY to mean ONE person with an unusual sexual identity, are they going to think the meaning of the word is being changed?

This crap is fodder for fox news to make people think liberals are too crazy to be elected. And it works.

#194 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-09-16 03:35 PM | Reply

You managed to pack a lot of hurt feelings into those two sentences!

#192 | Posted by snoofy

Hurt feelings? Cant you read? I dont care about this one way or the other. I care about winning elections. This makes that harder for liberals and easier for republicans. Are you too stupid to understand that? We are in a crisis and a fascist uprising. These people can whine about pronouns when the crisis is over.

#195 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-09-16 03:37 PM | Reply

"We are in a crisis and a fascist uprising. These people can whine about pronouns when the crisis is over."

Um, Sam Smith is English. Should they only ever talk about Brexit?
Get over yourself, and get over Sam Smith's pronouns while you're at it.

#196 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-16 03:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Get over yourself, and get over Sam Smith's pronouns while you're at it.

#196 | Posted by snoofy

I'll keep saying this till it gets through your head - all I care about is winning elections. Liberals pronouns shenanigans make us lose elections. Fox news will have a field day with this.

Sam Smith is just another idiot who can't put his hurt feelings on the back burner until the fascist uprising is solved.

Elections are razor close. Imagine if pronoun politics pushes enough swing voters to the other side to win the election. Is sam smith's feelings worth all the environmental and economic destruction that would result from another lost election?

#197 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-09-16 05:31 PM | Reply

"I'll keep saying this till it gets through your head - all I care about is winning elections."

Sounds like you're more interested in finding reasons you're going to lose elections.

#198 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-16 06:08 PM | Reply

"Sam Smith is just another idiot who can't put his hurt feelings on the back burner until the fascist uprising is solved"

Sam Smith came out as gays, about five years ago.
But since there wasn't a fascist uprising at the time, you didn't even notice.

I understand that you think non-binaries or whatever the hell they want to call themselves need to shut up, because it's only going to make people go ewwww and vote for Trump.

They're not going to shut up.

#199 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-09-16 06:15 PM | Reply

It is to the average person.

That's not the standard you were applying in your original post whem you said "Dont ruin the proper usage of existing words." Stop backtracking and just admit you were talking out of your ass.

I'm also not going to let ignorant people define the debate with their own misunderstandings. You shouldn't either.

#200 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-16 06:18 PM | Reply

I understand that you think non-binaries or whatever the hell they want to call themselves need to shut up, because it's only going to make people go ewwww and vote for Trump.

They're not going to shut up.

#199 | Posted by snoofy

They dont need to shut up they just need to quit proving the republican's case that liberals are social radicals who want to change everything you've ever known.

Coming out as gay isn't changing anyone's use of the language. Whereas saying THEY now means ONE person with an unusual gender definition IS changing their use of the language. Even people with multiple personalities dont insist on being called THEY. This is just stupid radical wokeness. It's moronic. And it's losing politics.

nymag.com
The Tyranny of the Unwoke White Swing Voter
"The smart play, therefore, isn't to sacrifice the party's commitment to social liberalism and cosmopolitan values, but to avoid emphasizing those things. After all, even if such caution isn't necessary for defeating Trump, given his exceptional unpopularity, it will be nearly impossible for Democrats to assemble Senate majorities without improving their margins among white non-college voters....our system operates on the principle that whiter, more rural areas deserve disproportionate influence over the federal government."

Guess what - white rural folks dont want to vote for the side telling them they're changing the meaning of the words they've always used to protect the feelings of a fringe class of people.

#201 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-09-16 06:52 PM | Reply

I'm also not going to let ignorant people define the debate with their own misunderstandings. You shouldn't either.

#200 | Posted by JOE

When the fascist uprising is over they can call themselves whatever they want. Until then, the crybabies need to keep this crap out of the headlines.

#202 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-09-16 06:53 PM | Reply

When the fascist uprising is over they can call themselves whatever they want. Until then, the crybabies need to keep this crap out of the headlines.

POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2019-09-16 06:53 PM | REPLY

Really??

#203 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-16 06:57 PM | Reply

#202 Sorry dude, i'm not letting ignorant bigots run the show. If you're comfortable with that you should stop bumping the thread. And calling them "crybabies" reveals a little too much about what's really underlying your position here.

#204 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-16 07:03 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#202 Sorry dude, i'm not letting ignorant bigots run the show. If you're comfortable with that you should stop bumping the thread. And calling them "crybabies" reveals a little too much about what's really underlying your position here.

#204 | Posted by JOE

Actually, if you prioritize pronouns over winning elections, you ARE letting them run the show. And ruin the planet and literally kill innocent people.

If when they are prioritizing their pronouns over beating the fascists, they are crybabies.

#205 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-09-16 07:05 PM | Reply

The Far Side's cool with all of this:

i.pinimg.com

#206 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-09-16 07:07 PM | Reply

#305 It's not a binary choice. Gender pronouns have been debated for many years now. Only in this thread has someone claimed it's going to tip an election. Get real.

#207 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-16 07:21 PM | Reply

#305 It's not a binary choice. Gender pronouns have been debated for many years now. Only in this thread has someone claimed it's going to tip an election. Get real.

#207 | Posted by JOE

You get real.
In elections that are decided by a few thousand votes ANYTHING can tip an election. A few HUNDRED votes created the dubya presidency, which created the iraq war, trillions in costs, and hundreds of thousands of deaths.

The stakes are too high to cater to pronoun activists right now.

#208 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-09-16 07:42 PM | Reply

Ok. You're cool with throwing trans people under the bus. You call them "crybabies" so that's not surprising.

I'm not cool with it. It's certainly not my top priority but i'm not going to let idiots ---- up the thread with misinformation about the English language and make it sound like having to call someone "they" is some monumental grievance. It's not.

You do you. I'll do me.

#209 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-16 09:39 PM | Reply

Ok. You're cool with throwing trans people under the bus. You call them "crybabies" so that's not surprising.

I'm not cool with it. It's certainly not my top priority but i'm not going to let idiots ---- up the thread with misinformation about the English language and make it sound like having to call someone "they" is some monumental grievance. It's not.

You do you. I'll do me.

#209 | Posted by JOE

If not alienating swing voters by letting trans people re engineer the common language is THROWING THEM UNDER THE BUS, then yes I'm cool with that, but that's a mighty strange way to define THROWING THEM UNDER THE BUS.

If catering to the woke police ends up re electing trump and the GOP, which lets them trash the earth and steal health care from everyone, how does that affect trans people? Do you think they'd rather have pronouns which dont hurt their feelings or breathable air and a functioning economy?

#210 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-09-16 09:43 PM | Reply

Not correcting misinformation is what allows them to fester and become alienated in the first place. When you let Fox News control the narrative, you've already lost.

#211 | Posted by JOE at 2019-09-17 03:05 AM | Reply

Not correcting misinformation is what allows them to fester and become alienated in the first place. When you let Fox News control the narrative, you've already lost.

#211 | Posted by JOE

Calling a singular person THEY is not CORRECTING anything. It's making requiring everyone to speak INCORRECTLY, which lets fox news control the narrative, elect republicans, and make the whole world suffer. The woke police are the worst part of the left and they only hurt our chances at saving the world.

#212 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-09-17 12:48 PM | Reply

Calling a singular person THEY is not CORRECTING anything. It's making requiring everyone to speak INCORRECTLY, which lets fox news control the narrative, elect republicans, and make the whole world suffer. The woke police are the worst part of the left and they only hurt our chances at saving the world.

POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2019-09-17 12:48 PM | REPLY

Bullschit. There is a singular they. It isn't requiring someone to speak incorrectly.

#213 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2019-09-17 12:51 PM | Reply

Bullschit. There is a singular they. It isn't requiring someone to speak incorrectly.

#213 | Posted by LauraMohr

Saying "dont call me a he or she call me a they" is changing the meaning of the word "they", which freaks out swing voters and pushes them to the right. Woke speak is not worth re electing trump is it?

#214 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-09-17 01:18 PM | Reply

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