Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Monday, October 14, 2019

A 12-year-old Overland Park girl formed a gun with her fingers, pointed at four of her Westridge Middle School classmates one at a time, and then turned the pretend weapon toward herself.

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Being handcuffed and taken away by the police is ridiculous enough, but being charged with a felony?!?

The snowflakes are surely taking over America.

#1 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-13 09:59 PM | Reply

FTA:

He [David Smith, school spokesman] said the role of the district police is "not to enforce the law but to keep kids and adults safe."

Well, I'm sure the school is a lot safer now that this 12 YO girl and her fingers are behind bars.

#2 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-13 10:07 PM | Reply

Blame Clint Eastwood.

#3 | Posted by REDIAL at 2019-10-13 10:07 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Blame Clint Eastwood.

#3 | POSTED BY REDIAL "

Yeah, I guess it was the "Do you feel lucky, punk?" that did her in. :)

#4 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-13 10:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

From Grand Torino:

www.youtube.com

Hope the link works... I suck at that.

#5 | Posted by REDIAL at 2019-10-13 10:15 PM | Reply

Perspective distortion not my fault. :-)

#6 | Posted by REDIAL at 2019-10-13 10:22 PM | Reply

Classic example of a moral panic.

#7 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-10-13 10:24 PM | Reply

So, how should we handle this threatening behavior?

And, yes, it is a threatening behavior.

But it was a 12-year-old.

So what do we do when a 12 year old exhibits threatening behavior?

#8 | Posted by LampLighter at 2019-10-13 10:51 PM | Reply

"And, yes, it is a threatening behavior.
#8 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER "

What?

And the boys who pick up a stick and pretend it's a rifle? That, too?

Sorry, sticks and fingers are not threatening. Well, maybe the stick if someone tries to hit someone else with it. But used as a mock weapon in a fake children's battle?

#9 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-13 10:58 PM | Reply

12yo arrested and booked for shooting fingers.

Sounds black.

#10 | Posted by fresno500 at 2019-10-13 11:02 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

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"And, yes, it is a threatening behavior.
#8 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER "

It's about as threatening as "D 3. I sunk your battleship!"

#11 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-13 11:03 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

@#9 ... Sorry, sticks and fingers are not threatening ...

No need to apologize, I mostly (but not completely) agree with you.

My concern resides in the fact that a 12-year-old thinks it is appropriate to point a gun (OK, a virtual gun) at someone with no reason.

From the cited article...

...The person said that during a class discussion, another student asked the girl, if she could kill five people in the class, who would they be?...

Aside from this being wrong on so many levels, there is a problem here.

A person saying that she would kill her classmates.

Would you want that person in school with your kids?

Over-reaction? Maybe. But what are school officials to do in this type of circumstance?

It is not an easy question. The best answer is to over-react on the side of safety.

But if we can move from the tactical answer to the strategic answer...

I have questions...

Why does the person being asked about killing classmates respond by making a gun gesture, and not question why classmates should be killed?

#12 | Posted by LampLighter at 2019-10-13 11:21 PM | Reply

"...The person said that during a class discussion, another student asked the girl, if she could kill five people in the class, who would they be?..."

I think in a court of law a question like that would be called "leading". So she probably would not have done it if not asked that question, I don't think, unless she had done it before.

"A person saying that she would kill her classmates."

When asked whom she would kill.

"Would you want that person in school with your kids?"

Based solely on that? I'd have no problem at all. Hell, I grew up with kids always saying, "I'm going to kill you" to each other, including myself, and to date (I''m 64 now) I don't think any of them have. We used finger guns and sticks to "shoot" each other. We threw horseapple "bombs" at each other. We actually used pyrotchnics shooting bottle rockets at each other in wars. Much worse than a finger. But as I said, I don't know of any of my former classmates who have actually killed another person. Nor do I think any of them felt threatened with "I'm going to kill you" or finger guns and stick guns.

#13 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-13 11:40 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

@#13 ...

... I think in a court of law a question like that would be called "leading". >>>

Possibly. But another answer might be "no one."

... "A person saying that she would kill her classmates."

When asked whom she would kill. ...

She could have said "no one."

... Hell, I grew up with kids always saying, "I'm going to kill you" to each other, ...

And look at the mass shootings we have. That approach has obviously not worked out well.

I asked two types of questions, a tactical one, which you answered, and a strategic one, which you dodged.

So let me circle back to the more strategic question...

Why does is seem to be OK with you that students are comfortable with talking about killing their classmates?

#14 | Posted by LampLighter at 2019-10-13 11:59 PM | Reply

"Why does is seem to be OK with you that students are comfortable with talking about killing their classmates?
#14 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER "

I did answer that. Kids say things. I grew up with kids always saying, "I'm going to kill you". I hear adults saying it too, not just to each other but about entire groups of people. As kids we said, "We're going to kill the Panthers on Friday night".

Someone who wants to shoot up a school is going to do it even if they don't utter the words, "I'm going to kill you."

As you suggesting every kid that says, "Im going to kill you" should be put in jail? What does that accomplish? ANd the 12 YO girl? If she had malice in her heart, do you really think taking her away in handcuffs would stop any malfeasance she had in mind? No. In fact, if anything it probably plants thoughts in her mind

If someone wants to shoot someone, they're going to do it no matter what they do or don't do with their fingers.

#15 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-14 12:11 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Will the police keep her fingers in the evidence locker until the trial?

#16 | Posted by Charliecharles at 2019-10-14 12:23 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

@#15 ... I did answer that. Kids say things. I grew up with kids always saying, "I'm going to kill you". I hear adults saying it too, ...

That's tactical.

I asked about strategic.

And you got nuthin'.

Based upon your comment, I doubt if you even understood my question.

Remember the movie War Games?

The tag line, "want to play again?" :)

I'm moving on, it's not worth staying up late for this level of discourse.


#17 | Posted by LampLighter at 2019-10-14 12:26 AM | Reply

"I'm moving on, it's not worth staying up late for this level of discourse.

#17 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER "

I agree. I find it hard to believe anyone would be threatened by a finger gun.

#18 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-14 12:50 AM | Reply

"Will the police keep her fingers in the evidence locker until the trial?

#16 | POSTED BY CHARLIECHARLES AT 2019-10-14 12:23 AM |"

For society's sake, I certainly hope so!

#19 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-14 12:51 AM | Reply

Goat, What you seem to be purposefully ignoring is the intent and context.

If you're a kid playing cowboys and Indians or army men with your FRIENDS, then the context is clear, you are all playing together.

If you're an outcast among your peers and purposefully point a pretend Gunnar each person one by one, and then at your own head, you're sending a clear message in the days of school shootings.

There's a scene in a movie , I think its Robert Deniro stalking the family of a lawyer that didn't keep him out of prison... Nick Nolte maybe? Cape Fear?... I recall a scene where he points a finger gun at Nick Nolte... Was he playing cops and robbers with him or issuing a threat?

#20 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2019-10-14 09:54 AM | Reply

This isn't a police issue at all. At most she should have been given detention after school. To haul her out in cuffs and charge her with a felony? That is the true criminal act here.

#21 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-10-14 11:33 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

Ask her why?

In order to handle the problem, motive could help.

If I had been asked that as a kid, I could name a dozen bullies. If asked for motive, I had lots of reasons and enough school mates that would agree.

What's worse than boys are girls.

As boys, fists talk.

Girls? They're absolutely nasty.

Today, they are worse thanks to social media. The biggest trauma among teen girls are other teen girls.

#22 | Posted by Petrous at 2019-10-14 10:14 PM | Reply

Being handcuffed and taken away by the police is ridiculous enough, but being charged with a felony?!?
The snowflakes are surely taking over America.

#1 | POSTED BY GOATMAN

100% correct.

#23 | Posted by CrisisStills at 2019-10-15 04:41 AM | Reply

Being handcuffed and taken away by the police is ridiculous enough, but being charged with a felony?!?
The snowflakes are surely taking over America.

#1 | POSTED BY GOATMAN AT 2019-10-13 09:59 PM

Yep. The police who DJT counts as allies

I'm glad she wasn't near any windows she could have been shot.

#24 | Posted by hatter5183 at 2019-10-15 05:36 AM | Reply

Considering her age, this may have been that 'time' that only women understand.

I've learned that hormones, attitude, etc. Go all haywire each month and women in general, during these phases, are extremely dangerous and should be avoided at all cost.

This could be a simple case of temporary insanity (for nearby men)

#25 | Posted by Petrous at 2019-10-15 07:50 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

It was long ago.

Wow.

Memories.

In my school, all the 12-13 yr old girls were taken to the cafeteria with the female teachers.

All us boys and male teachers went to the school playground.

There was this big secret meeting going on.

After the meeting, and ever since that day, the girls appeared bursting with power!

Excused from homework, excused from gym class, excused from swim meets, excused of any wrongdoing. A trend emerged that day.

Every year, this is done. Every year!

I know now what happened. Explains a lot about gender change issues. Carte blanq excuse.

#26 | Posted by Petrous at 2019-10-15 07:55 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

I think one point being ignored is the 5th person she chose was herself. She didn't need jail she needs counseling.

#27 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2019-10-15 08:00 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I grew up with kids always saying, "I'm going to kill you" to each other, including myself, and to date (I''m 64 now) I don't think any of them have

That was before people started shooting up schools on a weekly basis. Surely you'd at least admit that joking about guns in school is different today than it was 50 years ago?

#28 | Posted by JOE at 2019-10-15 08:21 AM | Reply

I sincerely hope you never fathered any daughters, Petrous. For their sake.

#29 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2019-10-15 08:48 AM | Reply

Growing up in the Fifties, my White friends and I played cowboys a lot. We all had fairly real-looking (to ourselves) cap pistols, in which we burned through hundreds of rolls of cap ammunition. My particular favorite was a Mattel "Fanner Fifty." www.mattelcapguns.com Mine was the double-holster one!

#30 | Posted by john47 at 2019-10-15 08:58 AM | Reply

As well as she should have been. If Liberals are allowed to destroy our 1st Amendment rights, then a finger gun is a threatening gesture and should be punished.

#31 | Posted by humtake at 2019-10-15 12:22 PM | Reply

"I grew up with kids always saying, "I'm going to kill you" to each other, including myself, and to date (I''m 64 now) I don't think any of them have"

That was before people started shooting up schools on a weekly basis. Surely you'd at least admit that joking about guns in school is different today than it was 50 years ago?

#28 | POSTED BY JOE AT 2019-10-15 08:21 AM "

You're basically saying the problem isn't the finger gun pointing.

You are right -- people did it before the school shooting craze, and kids are still using finger guns and stick rifles. So obviously there is no correlation.

#32 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-15 12:52 PM | Reply

When I was in high school I was in a Senior Class play where in one scene someone threatens another person with a gun (I was the one being threatened). Now we didn't have a prop-gun and while we could have gone out and bought a toy gun, back in those days (the 60's) most toy guns were chrome-plated six-guns for kids. We wanted something more realistic and this was before you could buy a pellet gun or something like that that actually looked like a real pistol. Our Solution? I borrowed a Walther PPK that my girl friend's (now my wife) father (was was also a deputy sheriff) had taken off a dead German SS officer during the war. It came complete with a holster and two magazines, but no ammo. The holster and magazine allowed for a very realistic scene where the guy with the gun was seen taking it out of it's black leather holster, remove the magazine, as if he were checking to make sure it was loaded, putting the magazine back in the pistol and the racking the action as if he were chambering a round, something that we could not have done using some dime-store kid's toy pistol. And NO one, not the school's administrators, nor any of the teachers, nor any parents or anyone who attended the three performances of the play, said anything about having an actual pistol in school and of course, during the course of the play, it was pointed at least one person, ME.

Also, when I went off to College the following year, I was able to take my own personal rifle and shotgun with me as they were allowed in the dorm. Granted, we had to rent a gun locker from the school which was in basement of the dorm and we had to keep our guns and ammo in that locker at all times. If we needed to clean or repair one of our guns, we had to do so in this 'gun room' (it had a work bench). You could only take your guns out of the 'gun room' if you were going hunting or for target practice. Note that the university also had it's own indoor target range located in the basement of the school's library. There was also a makeshift 'skeet range' that some students had set up years before on some state land next to a ship canal which was a safe place to shoot clay targets.

Also, the ARMY ROTC unit had a set of 1903 Springfield rifles which were fully functional and while they were kept locked-up, they were there because the ROTC unit was often asked to provide both honor guards and firing squads for funerals of war veterans.

Granted, this was back in the 'good old days' (the 60's) which was a very different era than today.

OCU

#33 | Posted by OCUser at 2019-10-15 01:59 PM | Reply

"#33 | POSTED BY OCUSER "

Along that same line, when I was in HS the 'goat ropers' all had gun racks in their pickups with guns -- usually a .22 and 12 gauge.

#34 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-15 02:12 PM | Reply

Caduzer,

You borrowed a Walther PPK?

When you holstered it did you say, "Bond. James Bond."?

#35 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-10-15 02:24 PM | Reply

OCU

We had something similar at my school for a play. Late 80's early 90's. Guy brought in his father's colt 45 we even got blanks to use. Not one word was said.

After the play at the cast party we all took turns firing it at his place. They had a range set up with an earth berm as a backstop. To this day it's the only time I ever fired a gun.

I'm sure today he would have been suspended and the drama teacher and that guys parents would be in jail. Instead it was NBD and he went on to be on the cover of Forbes.

#36 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2019-10-15 02:36 PM | Reply

A few years after we were married, I was talking to my father-in-law about how back in high school he had loaned me that Walther PPK, and he said he would leave it for me in his will. While he never actually had a will, when he passed my wife's mother agreed that he had indeed wanted me to have the pistol. The problem was that we couldn't find it. My mother-in-law insisted that he had kept it in a box in the attic but when we looked the box was gone (it was supposed to have included some other WWII memorabilia as well, such as some German insignias, medals and such). The consensus was that my wife's younger brother took the stuff and sold it all when he was having some tough times and his parents refused to help him. He's never admitted it, but it's generally been accepted that that's where it went.

OCU

#37 | Posted by OCUser at 2019-10-15 02:43 PM | Reply

"... Walther PPK..."

I'm not being critial or trolling, but isnt it kind of creepy to hold that gun and think it might have been used to shoot Jews in the back of the head, or even more conventionally as a war weapon?

I own the 12 gauge my grandfather blew his brains out with. My family thinks it's creepy I keep it.

#38 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-15 02:50 PM | Reply

And speaking of having a gun in class, when I was in engineering school, during one of our sessions in Thermodynamics, the professor brought into class a chunk of wood, about 10 x 10 x 24 inches, with a handle on top to make it easy to carry (it weighed about 40-45 pounds). Anyway, during the class we weighed the chunk of wood, measured the coefficient of friction between it and the table it was sitting on. Then he gave us the specifications for a 45 caliber round, weight and muzzle velocity. Then we did a calculation on the chalk board for the Conservation of Momentum assuming that the 45 caliber round hit the end of the block of wood square-on and was completely absorbed by it. The problem we were to solve was how far would the block of wood move on the table.

You can guess what happened next. While this was not a surprise, as this professor performed the experiment every years, it always drew a big crowd of other staff members and students, he took out of his shoulder holster an ARMY Colt 45 automatic, walked to end of the room, put on a pair of shooter's ear ----- (the rest of us could only cover our ears with our hands) and after we had all stepped back as far we could, took aim and shot a round into the chunk of wood. Now the good news is that he didn't miss and the block did move the predicted distance, give or take a bit. As far as I know, he continued to stage this 'experiment' until he retired, but I suspect it was never taken-up by anyone else. Also note that the professor was the faculty advisor for the school's pistol team (at least two of our alumni went on to win Olympic Gold medals in shooting).

OCU

#39 | Posted by OCUser at 2019-10-15 03:33 PM | Reply

You are right -- people did it before the school shooting craze, and kids are still using finger guns and stick rifles. So obviously there is no correlation.

You missed the point, as usual.

Pointing a fake finger gun at a person and pulling the trigger used to be seen as harmless fun, because in the back of everyone's mind was the comforting thought that "nobody would actually do that..."

Today, that comforting thought no longer exists. Because people do actually bring guns to school and slaughter people. So the thing that used to be funny, is no longer funny, and needs to be taken at least some amount more serious than it used to be.

Can't believe this required explanation, but considering the audience I suppose it's not a surprise.

#40 | Posted by JOE at 2019-10-15 04:13 PM | Reply

"You missed the point, as usual.
POSTED BY JOE"

Condescension is usually the best anyone who uses it has to offer.

I'm kind of looking for substance, Joe. Got any?

#41 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-15 04:15 PM | Reply

I'm kind of looking for substance, Joe. Got any?

Sure. It's in paragraphs 2 and 3 of my post. Which you ignored.

#42 | Posted by JOE at 2019-10-15 04:17 PM | Reply

I also have my grandfather's shotgun, but the only thing he blew up were ducks. It's a Winchester Model 1897, manufactured in 1924 (based on the serial number). It's a 12-gauge pump, with a 32 inch, full-choke barrel. I know he used it during the depression to hunt ducks (back in those days, you did it mostly at night) which he then sold to local restaurants and hotels. I've never shot it, but it's in near perfect condition and I keep it clean and well oiled. Tradition requires that it goes to my oldest son.

I also inherited my father's shotgun, a Winchester Model 12, manufactured in 1953 (based on the serial number). It's a 20-gauge pump, with a 27 inch, modified-choke barrel. Now I've shot this one many times, and before I got my own shotgun, I used it to hunt partridge and rabbit. It's also in near perfect condition and will be handed down to one of my sons.

I've also got a couple of 22-cal rifles as well as a 30-cal, M1 carbine that I used to hunt deer with when I still lived in Michigan. I've not shot in years. My oldest son and I used to go shooting at a public range that was a few miles from our house, but they closed it years ago as the land was too valuable and the owner wanted to develop it. Now you have to go either to very expensive private ranges or drive over another county or two further out toward the desert to find a range where you can fire high-powered riles, not that my carbine could be considered high-powered (although it can knock down a deer pretty good), but most local indoor ranges are limited to only pistols.

OCU

#43 | Posted by OCUser at 2019-10-15 04:17 PM | Reply

""It's a Winchester Model 1897, manufactured in 1924 (based on the serial number). It's a 12-gauge pump, with a 32 inch, full-choke barrel."

That is exactly the one I have, give or take a year in the manufacture (I can't remember, though I did look it up) that my grandfather used on himself.

I had it refurbished a few years ago. I shot it a few times one day and not since then. I don't know what happens to it when I die. No one in my family wants it because of its history.

#44 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-15 04:26 PM | Reply

Pointing a fake finger gun at a person and pulling the trigger used to be seen as harmless fun, because in the back of everyone's mind was the comforting thought that "nobody would actually do that..."
Today, that comforting thought no longer exists. Because people do actually bring guns to school and slaughter people. So the thing that used to be funny, is no longer funny, and needs to be taken at least some amount more serious than it used to be.

OK, but arrest her and charge her with a felony?

#45 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-10-15 04:27 PM | Reply

I have a Red Rider BB Gun.

#46 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-10-15 04:27 PM | Reply

Growing-up, we were never allowed to have any toy guns or even a BB gun, but I did get my first 22-cal rifle for my 9th birthday. In our house, all the guns were real and often loaded. My father had a life membership in the NRA, but that was back when the NRA actually was a group chartered to support hunters and gun owners, and was also very active in teaching hunter safety in our schools. This was long before they became primarily the chief lobbyist for the gun and ammo manufacturing industries. If my father was alive today, he would have burned his NRA membership card years ago.

OCU

#47 | Posted by OCUser at 2019-10-15 06:16 PM | Reply

#44

I mean if you really need someone to hand it down to I wouldn't mind :)

If I ever get a gun it would be a 12 gauge pump, not likely to ever happen given how my wife feels about guns but if I talk her into retiring to the country she would probably go for it. She has friends who keep telling her about varmints they had to deal with which increases the odds of her wanting a gun in the house if we move out there but conversely decreases the odds of her wanting to move to the country.

#48 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2019-10-15 07:30 PM | Reply

www.youtube.com

Goat at around the 3:10 mark was he offering to play cowboys and indians or perhaps army men?

#49 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2019-10-16 08:18 AM | Reply

Tao,

My youngest is a sophomore in HS. If my wife and I were ever to move to the country I'd consider a shotgun as well for the reasons you mentioned especially now that I wouldn't have to worry about little kids finding it. But where I live now, I don't see the need to own a gun, nor do I want one.

#50 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-10-16 01:30 PM | Reply

"If my wife and I were ever to move to the country I'd consider a shotgun as well for the reasons you mentioned especially now that I wouldn't have to worry about little kids finding it. But where I live now, I don't see the need to own a gun, nor do I want one.

#50 | POSTED BY JEFFJ "

If just one gun, I would choose a .22 for killing varmints. That is the primary use of a gun in the country. They're not much use for personal protection, but that's not really a problem in the country -- at least where I lived and my rent house still is.

#51 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-16 01:45 PM | Reply

#48 -- I'll put you in my will, Tao. :)

#52 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-16 01:46 PM | Reply

"www.youtube.com
Goat at around the 3:10 mark was he offering to play cowboys and indians or perhaps army men?

#49 | POSTED BY KWRX25 :

You're joking, right? I mean, how can Clint Eastwood in a fictional movie pointing a finger gun for plot purposes have any relevance here?

#53 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-16 01:50 PM | Reply

Years back when I played waaaay too much Call of Duty I had to constantly resist the urge to RPG low flying planes and helos.

I wish I was as successful during my GTA days. Lots of dented car doors and dead hookers...

The point is, finger guns are always appropriate.

#54 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2019-10-16 02:28 PM | Reply

#49 wow... you go on about Snoofy games (tm) and then pull that out.

In a thread about pointing your finger like a gun at someone, you ask me if I'm joking by posting a movie scene where someone points their fingers like a gun in an attempt to convey a threat?

HOW IS THAT NOT RELEVANT?

Your whole point is that you grew up using finger guns as non-threatening stand ins for toy guns so it is impossible for there to be any context where a finger gun could be a threat. So I show you a visible example, and you say it's irrelevant...wow.

Well welcome to GoatGames (tm) everybody... just as tired as old as Snoofy Games (tm)

This place used to offer some decent debate about topics, it's pretty much just this crap now.

#55 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2019-10-16 02:49 PM | Reply

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