Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Saturday, October 19, 2019

During the 20th century, America built thousands of manufacturing plants in small cities in the Midwest. When these plants were built, whole communities formed around them providing good paying jobs for millions of people without college degrees, as well as jobs for all of their supplier companies and the merchants in the communities.

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Bill Clinton took NAFTA, written by Reagan Republicans, and screwed over working and middle-class Americans resulting in leaving whole regions blighted and desolate -- especially in the Midwest.

This is why Hillary Clinton lost in 2016 when states like PA, OH, MI, IA, WI, all flipped for Trump -- and this is why Democrats lose.

And, oh by the way, this is why politicians like Bernie Sanders will always remain popular.

#1 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-19 09:39 AM | Reply

--Bill Clinton took NAFTA, written by Reagan Republicans, and screwed over working and middle-class Americans resulting in leaving whole regions blighted and desolate -- especially in the Midwest.

What was even more consequential in terms of job loss was him granting MFN status to China and enabling their entrance into the WTO.

#2 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-10-19 09:51 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

What was even more consequential in terms of job loss was him granting MFN status to China and enabling their entrance into the WTO.

#2 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

This says it all ...

Slate: Why does Donald Trump hammer Hillary Clinton on trade? In part, because of Bill Clinton's last great legislative victory.

slate.com

On May 24, 2000, Bill Clinton clinched what many believed would be the last great legislative victory of his presidency.

That afternoon, the House of Representatives voted to award China permanent normal trade relations, effectively backing Beijing's long-in-the-making bid to join the World Trade Organization.

The historic deal had been Clinton's top priority in the waning days of his last term"a move he hoped would improve relations with the world's most populous nation, while cementing his own legacy of using free trade to advance America's foreign policy interests.

It had been opposed by labor unions wary of competition from poorly paid foreign workers and championed by corporations salivating over 1.3 billion potential Chinese customers (the business lobby had spent millions on TV ads supporting the pact).

In the end, after much wrangling, 73 Democrats joined 164 Republicans to pass the agreement, which was expected to glide through the Senate.


And this is why in 2016 states like PA, OH, MI, IA, WI voted for Trump.

#3 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-19 12:19 PM | Reply

This is why Hillary Clinton lost in 2016 when states like PA, OH, MI, IA, WI, all flipped for Trump -- and this is why Democrats lose

They flipped because of something that happened 25 years ago?

You're reaching. And becoming as predictably anti-Dem in the lamest ways possible as sheeple is.

#4 | Posted by jpw at 2019-10-19 12:26 PM | Reply

The Chinese were allowed into the World Trade Organization and the NAFTA Agreement went into effect.

Thanks to bj willie and the dems.

#5 | Posted by Sniper at 2019-10-19 12:28 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#5 LOL I love the Trumplovian dogs coming out of the woodwork.

You people are so brain dead you don't even know it.

#6 | Posted by jpw at 2019-10-19 12:38 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

JPW, I would argue that trump and the GOP hit Hillary in those states with the eventual effects of NAFTA and it worked because voters in those states are sensitive to it.

It's absurd but that's the American voter.

#7 | Posted by eberly at 2019-10-19 12:56 PM | Reply

It's absurd but that's the American voter.

#7 | Posted by eberly

Voting in consideration of one's economic standing or prospects are of course perfectly reasonable.

Funny thing is, though, that they're not doing that. They think they are, but voting against somebody for what happened 25 years ago while supporting a party that's been gutting their economic prospects for the 25 years since is beyond absurd.

It goes to show how easily led your average voter really is.

#8 | Posted by jpw at 2019-10-19 01:07 PM | Reply

"--Bill Clinton took NAFTA, written by Reagan Republicans, and screwed over working and middle-class Americans resulting in leaving whole regions blighted and desolate -- especially in the Midwest."

What the Midwest really needs right now is some tariffs on agricultural products!

#9 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-19 01:45 PM | Reply

"JPW, I would argue that trump and the GOP hit Hillary in those states with the eventual effects of NAFTA and it worked because voters in those states are sensitive to it."

Hmmm. Aren't (perhaps I should say, weren't, looking forward to 2020) those states pretty solidly red to begin with?

#10 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-19 01:46 PM | Reply

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They flipped because of something that happened 25 years ago?

You're reaching. And becoming as predictably anti-Dem in the lamest ways possible as sheeple is.

#4 | POSTED BY JPW

It takes time to move a factory. I'm sure some factory's were immediately uprooted and moved.

However, as this article is reporting, it took 25 years for the exodus to take full effect -- which we all can see, today, that it did happen.

You have to remember contractual legalities between corporations/factory owners and unions -- but once these contracts expired, moving factories, or the threat of moving the factory during renegotiation -- is what created huge swaths of blight, leaving people pissed off and in despair.

Thomas Frank: Millions of ordinary Americans support Donald Trump. Here's why
www.theguardian.com

"When Trump talks about trade, we think about the Clinton administration, first with Nafta and then with [Permanent Normal Trade Relations] China, and here in Northeast Indiana, we hemorrhaged jobs."

"They look at that, and here's Trump talking about trade, in a ham-handed way, but at least he's representing emotionally. We've had all the political establishment standing behind every trade deal, and we endorsed some of these people, and then we've had to fight them to get them to represent us."

Now, let us stop and smell the perversity.

Left parties the world over were founded to advance the fortunes of working people.

But our left party in America " one of our two monopoly parties " chose long ago to turn its back on these people's concerns, making itself instead into the tribune of the enlightened professional class, a "creative class" that makes innovative things like derivative securities and smartphone apps.

The working people that the party used to care about, Democrats figured, had nowhere else to go, in the famous Clinton-era expression.

The party just didn't need to listen to them any longer.


QFT

#11 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-19 06:03 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

The left is pro union which is pro worker.
The right is very anti union.
The right fought unions and won at the expense of the union.

There argument was that companies have to be competitive to survive and why should the government pick winners and losers in the market.
That same argument applies to trade and tariffs.
The right want free trade and low taxes with no worker protections and they won.

They also managed to convince millions of idiots it was the left's fault.

#12 | Posted by bored at 2019-10-19 06:41 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

"When Trump talks about trade, we think about the Clinton administration, first with Nafta and then with [Permanent Normal Trade Relations] China, and here in Northeast Indiana, we hemorrhaged jobs."

This Northeast Indiana?

en.wikipedia.org

In this Indiana's 9th Congressional District?
en.wikipedia.org
Year Office Results
2000 President George W. Bush 56% - Al Gore 42%
2004 President George W. Bush 59% - John Kerry 40%
2008 President John McCain 52.7% - Barack Obama 46.2%
2012 President Mitt Romney 57.2% - Barack Obama 40.7%
2016 President Donald Trump 61% - Hillary Clinton 34.2%

Also, why can't it just be as simple as Trump was a lot more appealing in terms of saying the things that they wanted to hear? Why not give Trump credit, instead of giving Hillary and the Democrats the blame?

Or are you saying Trump's campaign messaging was really nothing more than "Hillary did all these things to you" over and over again, so giving Trump credit and giving Hillary blame are in fact the same thing?

#13 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-19 06:48 PM | Reply

"They also managed to convince millions of idiots it was the left's fault."

It sure seems like Pinchaloaf is trying to convince us that they aren't idiots for being convinced of that.

#14 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-19 06:49 PM | Reply

They also managed to convince millions of idiots it was the left's fault.

#12 | POSTED BY BORED

It sure seems like Pinchaloaf is trying to convince us that they aren't idiots for being convinced of that.

#14 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Okay, Thomas Frank is a smart guy, way smarter than me ...

And Frank is clearly explaining in post #11 how Trump voters remember NAFTA and China being granted Permanent Normal Trade status by Bill Clinton -- resulting in their jobs going away, which is also explained by the article at the top of this thread.

In other interviews, Thomas Frank also explains how the Republican written NAFTA ensured bosses would ALWAYS have the leverage over workers in any negotiation by simply threatening to move the factory overseas -- which I pointed out in post #11.

This is why Trump won in 2016 in PA, OH, MI, IA, WI -- and why Hillary lost.

Why do you hate me for showing you both the truth?

#15 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-19 07:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

China being granted Permanent Normal Trade status by Bill Clinton on December 27th, 2001.

So there that.

georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov

#16 | Posted by REDIAL at 2019-10-19 07:17 PM | Reply

"And Frank is clearly explaining in post #11 how Trump voters remember NAFTA and China being granted Permanent Normal Trade status by Bill Clinton -- resulting in their jobs going away, which is also explained by the article at the top of this thread."

And so Trump, by promising to re-negotiate NAFTA, was able to scoop up their votes.
Even as people like you and I knew damn well Trump wasn't going to do much if anything to help them, and would quite possibly hurt them more.
And this is Hillary/DNC's fault, that they didn't know that, and even other Republicans in the field couldn't explain it to them.

Am I missing something?
I mean, I sure feel like I'm missing how you connected these dots, but am I at least on the same page in the coloring book?

#17 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-19 07:17 PM | Reply

"When Trump talks about trade, we think about the Clinton administration, first with Nafta and then with [Permanent Normal Trade Relations] China, and here in Northeast Indiana, we hemorrhaged jobs."

^
You can even see this person's mind leading them down the garden path:
We think about Clinton.
First with NAFTA (actually a Clinton thing)
and then with China (a Bush thing).

We think about Clinton.

#18 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-19 07:19 PM | Reply

"Why do you hate me for showing you both the truth?

"
You sound like maybe you could be the first person to realize the world is a deeply corrupt place, even the things you love about it.

#19 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-19 07:23 PM | Reply

You sound like maybe you could be the first person to realize the world is a deeply corrupt place, even the things you love about it.

#19 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Why should I ever be afraid admitting to being idealistic?

I work in healthcare where 30% of everything done is wasted effort -- that'll wreck idealism in a hurry, but I always tell colleagues knowing the truth is always better than mistakenly taking out their frustrations on their co-workers.

Life long learning, and knowledge is free and for everyone -- corny, I know.

#20 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-19 07:39 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Even as people like you and I knew damn well Trump wasn't going to do much if anything to help them, and would quite possibly hurt them more.

And this is Hillary/DNC's fault, that they didn't know that, and even other Republicans in the field couldn't explain it to them.

Am I missing something?

#17 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Democrats are complicit because they stopped behaving as an opposition party when it comes to real economic issues back in the 1980s as they transitioned from being the party of the working-class to being the party of the professional-class -- and the Clinton Era mindset was workers "had nowhere else to go", that is until Trump came along.

The Republican Party = 1% = The Plutocrats

The Deomcratic Party = 10% = The Professional-class

Working and middle-class Americans are looking for someone to address their needs -- in 2008 and 2012, enough of them went with Obama's Hope and Change but things continue to slide downward for them.

In 2016, Trump conned enough of these voters in PA, OH, MI, IA, WI to beat Hillary who took them completely for granted -- aka, they "had nowhere else to go".

#21 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-19 07:52 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

China being granted Permanent Normal Trade status on December 27th, 2001.

So there that.

georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov

#16 | POSTED BY REDIAL

Bill Clinton did the ground work ...

Clinton's China Two-Step

www.washingtonpost.com

January 17, 2000

On Monday President Clinton announced an "all-out" campaign to lobby Congress to pass permanent most-favored-nation status for China.

The lobbying will be rough, with a fully mobilized American business community working as the iron fist inside the administration's velvet glove.

The same day Clinton kicked off his new campaign, U.S. Chamber of Commerce President Thomas Donohue warned, on cue, that members of Congress who oppose permanent trade status for China "will find themselves in an unhappy situation with the business community."


This is exactly how Bill Clinton took the Republican written NAFTA and steamrolled it thru Congress despite the Democrats traditional ally in Organized Labor being vehemently opposed to NAFTA.

And, again, as the article at the top of this thread points out, the blight and job loss in Rust Belt states was caused by NAFTA and China's MFN status -- and as Thomas Frank shows it is a direct result of Hillary Clinton losing to Donald Trump.

Those are the facts.

#22 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-19 08:05 PM | Reply

Those are the facts.

President Bush signed it. That is the fact.

#23 | Posted by REDIAL at 2019-10-19 08:11 PM | Reply

The new age of ghost towns.

They're fun to explore. These and landfills are going to give future archaeologists a good time.

#24 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-19 08:14 PM | Reply

WTG Unions!

#25 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-19 08:16 PM | Reply

"Democrats are complicit because they stopped behaving as an opposition party when it comes to real economic issues back in the 1980s as they transitioned from being the party of the working-class to being the party of the professional-class -- and the Clinton Era mindset was workers "had nowhere else to go", that is until Trump came along."

Is this supposed to be history, or is this supposed to be the way people in those Midwestern states think, when they voted for Obama, but didn't vote for Clinton? Also, did they vote for Bill Clinton, or what?

#26 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-19 08:21 PM | Reply

The Republican Party = 1% = The Plutocrats
The Deomcratic Party = 10% = The Professional-class

As demonstrated by their respective candidates for President in 2016.
Please proceed, Governor.

#27 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-19 08:22 PM | Reply

This is exactly how Bill Clinton took the Republican written NAFTA and steamrolled it thru Congress despite the Democrats traditional ally in Organized Labor being vehemently opposed to NAFTA.

George HW Bush had already negotiated and signed NAFTA. Clinton signed Congress' ratification of it.

#28 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2019-10-19 08:22 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

"This is exactly how Bill Clinton took the Republican written NAFTA and steamrolled it thru Congress despite the Democrats traditional ally in Organized Labor being vehemently opposed to NAFTA."

Right, this is a good example of why people describe Bill Clinton as a moderate Republican in terms of how he actually governed.

Myself, I point to his threats to call out the National Guard to end the UPS strike in 1997, lest a pesky labor dispute interfere with the much-needed Christmas shopping (and shipping) a healthy consumer economy demands. But, you know, I see things and blame them on Capitalism when other people just take them for granted as a part of nature, so don't feel bad if you can't smell what I'm stepping in.

#29 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-19 08:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

President Bush signed it. That is the fact.

#23 | POSTED BY REDIAL

So the WaPo link in post #22 explaining that Bill Clinton did all the groundwork on making China MFN status permanent for George W. Numbnuts to sign in 2001 -- all that means nothing to you?

Do you know how words work?

#30 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-19 08:34 PM | Reply

Do you know how words work?

I know how laws and treaties work. They become real when the President signs them.

#31 | Posted by REDIAL at 2019-10-19 08:41 PM | Reply

"The Chinese were allowed into ... and the NAFTA Agreement went into effect." - #5 | Posted by Sniper at 2019-10-19 12:28 PM

NAFTA = North American Free Trade Agreement.

sni seems to believe that China is in North America.

Oh, and China became a member of the World Trade Organization (WTO) on 11 December 2001.

NFATA went into effect on on January 1, 1994.

Proving, once again, that sni was home schooled by idiots.

#32 | Posted by Hans at 2019-10-19 08:49 PM | Reply

Pinch and Sheep are hard core anti Dem. They want to see permanent GOP rule.

#33 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2019-10-19 08:49 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I know how laws and treaties work. They become real when the President signs them.

#31 | POSTED BY REDIAL

Do you know how a veto works?

Laws don't become real when a president vetoes them.

Republican George W. Numbnuts signed the law giving China permanent MFN status -- and we know why, douchebag Republicans stand for tax cuts for millionaires, billionaires, and corporations already making record profits.

Democrat Bill Clinton had a Republican written NAFTA trade agreement in front of him and signed it -- so why didn't Bill Clinton veto NAFTA?

#34 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-19 08:53 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I merely corrected you when you said Bill Clinton gave MFN status to China.

I don't plan to chase dynamic goalposts all night.

#35 | Posted by REDIAL at 2019-10-19 08:57 PM | Reply

Pinch and Sheep are hard core anti Dem. They want to see permanent GOP rule.

#33 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER

Why are you such an emasculated Hillary lackey?

I keep saying that I don't vote for Republicans due to their industrial-sized capacity for corruption and Neanderthal level values.

The problem with Democrats is that they don't really stand for much of anything -- except for also being corrupt and for making the lives for the professional-class as cushy as possible at the expense of working and middle-class Americans.

#36 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-19 09:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"emasculated"

If you think you're being a man, I feel sorry for you and the people in your life. Go to your incel buddies and whine them about your internet tough guy routine and how hrc will one day pay for what she did to your feelings.

#37 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2019-10-19 10:08 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

If you think you're being a man, I feel sorry for you and the people in your life. Go to your incel buddies and whine them about your internet tough guy routine and how hrc will one day pay for what she did to your feelings.

#37 | POSTED BYBRUCEBANNER

I voted for Hillary in 2016 -- I've said this a million times.

What you're not doing by coming to this website since 2009/10/09 is growing -- both politically and intellectually.

Defending the same crap for years on end and saying the exact same things, despite following the news closely and hanging out on a news aggregator website ...

just shows me how people, yourself included, prefer groupthink and simple conformity over any idea resembling free thought and free expression.

George Carlin once said that the older you get, the more you look around, the more you realize something is ------ up -- this is where I'm at, though I'm nothing special.

People basically don't know --------, are so easily cowed, and are adamant in their obstinance to learn anything -- talk about being shackled to ignorance for a lifetime.

Call me every name in the book, who cares. Just bring something more to the table than stale vanilla-flavored wobbly groupthink and lame bromides.

#38 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-19 11:35 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"emasculated"

#37 | POSTED BYBRUCEBANNER

I forgot to say that a longtime poster used that word to describe Tim Kaine when he ran as Hillary's running mate, and I laughed each time it was referenced ...

Too me, it's just a funny adjective.

But I meant everything else.

#39 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-19 11:42 PM | Reply

George Carlin once said that the older you get, the more you look around, the more you realize something is ------ up -- this is where I'm at, though I'm nothing special.

People basically don't know --------, are so easily cowed, and are adamant in their obstinance to learn anything -- talk about being shackled to ignorance for a lifetime.

Dude, how old are you?

Lately, you've consistently come across as somebody having the epiphanies of a 28 year old who thinks they're thinking something profound and special.

When really you're just passing through the normal idealism to cynicism transition that occurs at some stage of everybody's life.

#40 | Posted by jpw at 2019-10-20 12:00 AM | Reply

Dude, how old are you?

Lately, you've consistently come across as somebody having the epiphanies of a 28 year old who thinks they're thinking something profound and special.

When really you're just passing through the normal idealism to cynicism transition that occurs at some stage of everybody's life.

#40 | POSTED BYJPW

I can agree with some of this, but only up to a point ...

Being idealistic is nothing to be embarrassed about.

And when you combine that with the fact that knowledge once learned cannot be unlearned -- then there really is no turning back.

#41 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-20 12:30 AM | Reply

"Defending the same crap for years on end and saying the exact same things, despite following the news closely and hanging out on a news aggregator website ...
just shows me how people, yourself included, prefer groupthink and simple conformity over any idea resembling free thought and free expression."

It seems like you've given up on thinking and are moving to simple appeals to emotion.

#42 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2019-10-20 12:47 AM | Reply

It seems like you've given up on thinking and are moving to simple appeals to emotion.

#42 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER

Thinking, like ...

Remembering the fact that America is the richest country ever -- yet we can't have Universal Healthcare despite the fact that poorer countries are able to do it.

Because people like you unthinkingly and emotionally yelp "socialism".

#43 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-20 07:31 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Per the article ...

Dayton, Ohio: The city of Dayton is back in the news after the shooting on August 7 that killed eight people.

But Dayton's problems go back many years before the shooting.

An article in New Geography explains that since 1980, Dayton has lost 15,000 manufacturing jobs at large companies such as NCR, Mead Paper, Delphi, Reynolds and Reynolds, and General Motors. But the loss of major corporations only tells part of the story.

In the 1980s Dayton had more than 600 machine shops, but by the 1990s the number had fallen 50%.

Today, the city struggles with the ongoing problems of poverty. Dayton has lost 50% of its population since 1960, and one-third of its current population lives in poverty.

There has been an increase in murders, violence, drug abuse, and abandonment. The opioid epidemic has hurt Dayton more than most small cities.

According to a ProPublica/Frontline documentary, 400 people died from fatal overdoses in Montgomery County (which includes Dayton) in the first half of 2017.


Republican Party = party of the 1% = The Plutocrats

Democratic Party = party of the 10% = The Professional Class

Who is going to represent, let alone advocate for, these desperate Americans?

#44 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-20 07:46 AM | Reply

#43 you don't know anything about me or my thoughts yet you're knifing me in the back day in and day out. You're a GOP agent.

#45 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2019-10-20 09:52 AM | Reply

you don't know anything about me or my thoughts yet you're knifing me in the back day in and day out. You're a GOP agent.

#45 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER

You're a emasculated Hillary lackey.

#46 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-20 10:21 AM | Reply

"They flipped because of something that happened 25 years ago?"

As much as I dislike the OP and his schitty personality, he's partly right here. Things that happened during her husband's administration were relevant to Hillary Clinton's campaign. They basically advertised themselves as "co-presidents" early on.

#47 | Posted by sentinel at 2019-10-20 10:48 AM | Reply

"They basically advertised themselves as "co-presidents" early on.

#47 | POSTED BY SENTINEL "

You are right. More than once Bill said that by voting for him you got "two for the price of one."

#48 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-20 11:06 AM | Reply

Sure Pinch. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself and your inability to convince anyone about anything.

#49 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2019-10-20 11:29 AM | Reply

Sure Pinch. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself and your inability to convince anyone about anything.

#49 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER

Thanks!

#50 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-20 01:31 PM | Reply

I can agree with some of this, but only up to a point ...

Being idealistic is nothing to be embarrassed about.

And when you combine that with the fact that knowledge once learned cannot be unlearned -- then there really is no turning back.

#41 | Posted by PinchALoaf

I never said idealism is a bad thing. I have a certain part of my brain that's idealistic to the point of being annoying.

But the cynicism doesn't have to be permanent and it should, if you try, lead to more pragmatism than cynicism.

The key is working with the reality you live in, not the dream you wish you did. Progressives are really terrible at doing that and are perpetually stuck in the latter mode while the GOP is ruthlessly efficient at utilizing the former.

#51 | Posted by jpw at 2019-10-20 02:00 PM | Reply

"George Carlin once said that the older you get, the more you look around, the more you realize something is ------ up -- this is where I'm at, though I'm nothing special."

What are you, 30?

This is how you come across:
You sound like maybe you could be the first person to realize the world is a deeply corrupt place, even the things you love about it.
#19 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

#52 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-20 02:05 PM | Reply

"Just bring something more to the table than stale vanilla-flavored wobbly groupthink and lame bromides."

^
Hit me with that One Percent/Ten Percent thing again!

#53 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-20 02:20 PM | Reply

Ghost towns are kind of normal in US history.

#54 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2019-10-20 04:07 PM | Reply

#54:
Le boom.
Le recession.
Le Capitalisme.

#55 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-20 04:09 PM | Reply

The horror of things evolving. You can't be a progressive if you're clinging to the past.

#56 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2019-10-20 04:13 PM | Reply

The horror of things evolving. You can't be a progressive if you're clinging to the past.

#56 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

That's not true.

- Populist Movement
- Square Deal
- New Deal
- Great Society

These were all successful responses to the inequalities of their day.

Today's Democratic Party offers nothing in response to the Republican Party, except high minded platitudes about education and meritocracy.

Republican Party = party of the 1% = The Plutocrats

Democratic Party = party of the 10% = The Professional Class

Thomas Frank: Clinton Democrats Hate the Left
youtu.be
[21:15]

On Reality Asserts Itself, Thomas Frank author of "What's the Matter with Kansas" and "Listen LIberal", tells host Paul Jay that Bill Clinton tried to drive the left from the party, saying were naive and could never win; now that Hillary lost they are blaming the left for the defeat.

QFT

#57 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-20 04:39 PM | Reply

As Thomas Frank points out in the above video, Clinton-Democrats got EVERYTHING done their way in 2016 and still lost -- the work of the "victory faction" of the centrist Democrats that lost to a political novice.

This is why Hillary and Clintonism Dems push hoaxes like Russiagate, Muellergate, and Ukrainegate so hard -- to distract people from focusing on that the Clinton-Democrats are not the "winners" of elections, but are in fact losers.

#58 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-20 04:47 PM | Reply

#57 | POSTED BY PINCHALOAF AT 2019-10-20 04:39 PM | REPLY

Going with stuff from pre-Southern strategy democrats. Bold move. Nowadays we have Silicon Holler, Foxconn, Solar City. I'm all for helping the people trapped in these dying ghost towns relocate. Pumping in money is a foolish exercise.

#59 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2019-10-20 04:53 PM | Reply

"These were all successful responses to the inequalities of their day."

They were more a response to the great depression and the conditions created by the dustbowl climate. Many people were, no kidding, in desperate poverty. And the programs that FDR implemented were designed to keep people alive. Contrast that with today's economy, where median household income is at a historic high. Even if you were to reinvent the CCC or some other program, I doubt anyone would sign up. You could make far more money earning minimum wage.

#60 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-10-20 06:30 PM | Reply

This is why Hillary Clinton lost in 2016 when states like PA, OH, MI, IA, WI, all flipped for Trump

Those states have been 50/50 for the last 20 years. I'd argue Trump activating the previously politicaly inactive racist snowmobiler vote had a lot more to do with the flip than NAFTA.

#61 | Posted by JOE at 2019-10-20 06:42 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I'd argue Trump activating the previously politicaly inactive racist snowmobiler vote had a lot more to do with the flip than NAFTA.

#61 | POSTED BY JOE "

Hillary should have foreseen that and spent more campaigning time there.

Face it -- you guys had 50 million legally eligible democrats to choose from, but you thought a dynasty was a good year and went with the person even the most stupid democrat knew had tons of baggage and scandals and lies.

Beating Trump should've been a slam dunk.

Advice: If the DNC ever forces Chelsea or Michelle Obama down y'all's throats, Just. Say. No. Or it will happen again.

Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.

#62 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-20 06:55 PM | Reply

"Thomas Frank: Clinton Democrats Hate the Left"

Known since 1996.

In 1996, both Clinton and Dole supported NAFTA, GATT, and WIPO.

Why didn't you figure it out then?

Why'd it take Trump for you to notice?

#63 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-20 07:10 PM | Reply

"Hillary should have foreseen that and spent more campaigning time there."

How would that have deactivated the previously politicaly inactive racist snowmobiler vote?

I really don't get it.

#64 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-20 07:17 PM | Reply

"How would that have deactivated the previously politicaly inactive racist snowmobiler vote?"

It wouldn't

"I really don't get it.

#64 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

Clearly. People like you are why it will happen again.

#65 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-20 07:19 PM | Reply

"went with the person even the most stupid democrat knew had tons of baggage and scandals and lies."

So did the Republicans, so I don't really see how that could be seen as a difference maker.

#66 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-20 07:20 PM | Reply

"Clearly. People like you are why it will happen again."

Clear as mud.

#67 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-20 07:20 PM | Reply

"It wouldn't"

Okay, so then what would have been different if "Hillary should have foreseen that and spent more campaigning time there"?

#68 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-10-20 07:22 PM | Reply

"Okay, so then what would have been different if "Hillary should have foreseen that and spent more campaigning time there"?

#68 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

One of two things is happening here:

1) You are so utterly stupid that you can't figure out what the advantage of better campaigning is

or

2) You are trolling.

I don't want to engage either or your endless string of snoofygames (t) questons

"Forget it goatman, it's snoofytown"

Walsh

#69 | Posted by goatman at 2019-10-20 07:27 PM | Reply

"So did the Republicans, so I don't really see how that could be seen as a difference maker."

Hillary's baggage was as a politician or political figure. Trump had baggage...lots of it...but he was a Media personality. I think that mattered to a lot of people.

#70 | Posted by madbomber at 2019-10-20 08:34 PM | Reply

Sorry to tell y'all, but a mill town closes soon after the mill shuts down. There are hundreds of mining towns out west here that were abandoned after the mines closed. If the prime employer stops cutting pay checks, the economic future of the town is bleak. Out on the prairie throughout Oklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska there are many small towns that have shut down. The reason is simple, agriculture does not require the number of workers it once did. That and transportation is much easier. Small businesses in a town such as Temple Oklahoma can not compete with larger stores in Lawton less than 40 minutes away by car. In 1950 the population of Cotton County where Temple is located was 25,000. In 2000 the population was a little more than 5000. People moved out because there was no work. It sucks if you bought a house there. Right now I can move in to a pretty nice house in Temple free, no kidding free. But the nearest grocery store, police and hospital is 25 miles away.

#71 | Posted by docnjo at 2019-10-21 06:33 AM | Reply

#71 so how do you counter the irrational anger of people there who think they're being neglected but hate anything government?

#72 | Posted by jpw at 2019-10-21 08:36 AM | Reply

You don't. You're not their nanny.

#73 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2019-10-21 09:13 AM | Reply

#73 you do if you're trying to get elected.

Did you have a point with that stupid comment?

#74 | Posted by jpw at 2019-10-21 10:04 AM | Reply

I do not agree this is why Hillary lost.

Keep making excuses, but this isn't it.

If Bill Clinton was legally able to run for President, he would have beaten Trump.

Now, think of why Bill would beat Hillary for the office.

#75 | Posted by Petrous at 2019-10-21 10:06 AM | Reply

That "Giant sucking sound" is still sucking.

#76 | Posted by Daniel at 2019-10-21 10:23 AM | Reply

I understand why Trump might have fooled voters in 2016, but has he delivered on any of his promises? Will they be so easily fooled again?

#77 | Posted by danni at 2019-10-21 10:23 AM | Reply

Hillary should have foreseen that and spent more campaigning time there.

That's not a response to my point that Trump activating white nationalists who hadn't previously voted had a bigger impact on the election outcome than NAFTA.

#78 | Posted by JOE at 2019-10-21 10:28 AM | Reply

And this is what many Dems don't get. Instead of chasing a slice of the increasingly miniscule center, they should be trying to activate the millions of leftists who don't bother voting every time they run a corporatist like Hillary.

Trump didn't chase the center. He brought new people from the outer fringes to the voting booth and he won.

#79 | Posted by JOE at 2019-10-21 10:31 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Trump activating white nationalists who hadn't previously voted..."

any data on that? I know that's been asserted since his election and I'm sure it's at least partially true but is there anything to back that up?

#80 | Posted by eberly at 2019-10-21 11:01 AM | Reply

Trump didn't chase the center. He brought new people from the outer fringes to the voting booth and he won.

#79 | Posted by JOE

Do you have any actual data to support this?

Also, as far as "activating" leftists goes, do you have any data to support that this won't do exactly what I've been saying-an increased popular vote differential with a similar EC outcome.

How many leftists do you actually think live in PA, WI, FL ect?

#81 | Posted by jpw at 2019-10-21 11:06 AM | Reply

I realize the existence of a middle really irritates partisans. So much that they even pretend it barely exists.

On election day...the middle is real and impactful and it's going to carry the election in 6-7 swing states...just like it did last time.

#82 | Posted by eberly at 2019-10-21 11:11 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The Midwest has been mostly dead since the '80s. The degree to which it is dead may fluctuate slightly, but with the advent of globalization, the Midwest never stood a chance.

#83 | Posted by moder8 at 2019-10-21 11:12 AM | Reply

How many leftists do you actually think live in PA, WI, FL ect?

Wisconsin? Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands. Ever been to Milwaukee or Madison?

Wisconsin has a storied history with socialism. Milwaukee had socialist mayors until the 60s. Leftists in the state are about as far left as you can get. Bernie carried the primary easily in 2016.

#84 | Posted by JOE at 2019-10-21 02:25 PM | Reply

As to data on Trump bringing in new voters, it's surprisingly hard to find raw numbers in either direction. I could have sworn i'd seen it before but apparently not. Maybe one of the unemployed trolls here can look for it longer than i can though.

#85 | Posted by JOE at 2019-10-21 02:27 PM | Reply

#84 doesn't tell me that WI could swing blue if the progressives got out and voted.

Is there any state polling data to corroborate an untapped lefty voter poll?

#86 | Posted by jpw at 2019-10-21 04:01 PM | Reply

#84 doesn't tell me that WI could swing blue if the progressives got out and voted.

#84 wasn't a response to that question. It was a response to you questioning how many leftists actually live in WI; the tone suggested generally that there aren't many, which is wrong.

"Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents made up a 55% majority of nonvoters" in 2016.
fortune.com

#87 | Posted by JOE at 2019-10-21 04:09 PM | Reply

The Midwest has been mostly dead since the '80s. The degree to which it is dead may fluctuate slightly, but with the advent of globalization, the Midwest never stood a chance.

#83 | POSTED BY MODER8 AT 2019-10-21 11:12 AM | FLAG:

You're getting warmer. The article makes some good points, but there's more than NAFTA and China's status at play. And it certainly is simplistic to blame the current situation on either party entirely, although each has contributed. The fact is, manufacturing dried up because of a whole host of factors, not the least of which is automation. You simply don't need as many people to do the work when robots can do it without requiring PTO or a 40-hour workweek. This loss of jobs has a ripple effect on related businesses.

Globalization was inevitable because of cheap transportation and the Internet. The consumer's obsession with low prices, loss of interest in support for homegrown products, white flight from our cities, people trying to move away from dangerous and repetitive factory work, and companies offshoring their operations to save money and reward executives and stockholders all played a role.

Nobody I know of has come up with a foolproof solution to this dilemma. Some argue for completely rethinking our economy on a smaller, more local scale. Sounds antithetical to human ambition, doesn't it?

#88 | Posted by cbob at 2019-10-21 06:09 PM | Reply

Oh... another major reason people are leaving small towns? Because small towns lack the amenities of big-city life, such as the arts, universities, top-tier health care, shopping, dining, entertainment, pro sports, a culture of creativity, and of course, better job opportunities. Now more than ever, many people simply won't tolerate limited options.

#89 | Posted by cbob at 2019-10-21 06:25 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Not that any of you care, but I feel compelled to address what undoubtedly reads like an inconsistency regarding cities in my posts 88 and 89.

To a significant degree, the white flight of the 1930s-1990s, aided by the automobile, is reversing as upwardly mobile young people and empty nesters move back to urban life. A lot of them are using their cars less, or even giving them up altogether. This is a good thing for cities...less congestion, less land given over to the dead space of parking lots, and less cash tied up in a family's automobiles.

#90 | Posted by cbob at 2019-10-21 06:45 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"A lot of them are using their cars less, or even giving them up altogether."

I live in Manhattan. Haven't owned a car since 2002. I love to drive but have zero regrets.

#91 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2019-10-21 07:03 PM | Reply

#91

My cousin lived in NYC for several years and was going to move down here to Chapel Hill but one hurdle he had was a lack of a DL or any practice driving. Down here there are very few parts of the Triangle where you don't need a car.

Even downtown is tough to not have a car in because there are no grocery stores so unless you want to Uber to load up the pantry you are stuck owning a car. This was a few years ago and Uber wasn't a thing so he really would have had to get a DL and vehicle. Ultimately the job fell through anyway which was a shame he had a knack for finding the BEST weed around, I would have loved to have him 45 min away.

#92 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2019-10-21 07:14 PM | Reply

Wow run on sentence galore sorry about that blame the 2 kids talking to me while typing.

#93 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2019-10-21 07:15 PM | Reply

It was a response to you questioning how many leftists actually live in WI; the tone suggested generally that there aren't many, which is wrong.

As somebody already pointed out the states listed are regularly 50/50.

So no, the suggestion wasn't that there aren't many, it was asking for backing info that there was a significant untapped pool of them.

Are you this touchy whenever somebody asks you a question?

Thanks for the link.

#94 | Posted by jpw at 2019-10-21 07:38 PM | Reply

And this is what many Dems don't get. Instead of chasing a slice of the increasingly miniscule center, they should be trying to activate the millions of leftists who don't bother voting every time they run a corporatist like Hillary.

Trump didn't chase the center. He brought new people from the outer fringes to the voting booth and he won.

#79 | POSTED BYJOE

QFT

Trump offered fake populism, Democrats need to offer REAL populism.

#95 | Posted by PinchALoaf at 2019-10-21 09:15 PM | Reply

it was asking for backing info that there was a significant untapped pool of them.

I don't have the data, so at this point i'm relying on the following:

Sanders won the primaries in Wisconsin and Michigan. In Wisconsin he won by nearly as much as Obama did in 2008.

Hillary's nomination caused an enthusiasm gap in these and other states. As my link shows above, 55% of non-voters in 2016 were Dems or Dem-leaning independents. Additionally, the Green Party candidate received far more votes than usual - and more than the amount Hillary lost by in WI, MI and PA.

That is not to say that all Green Party votes belong to the Dems. What i am saying is that Dems ignored progressive voters at their own peril by cucking Sanders, and if they do it again they can expect the same results.

#96 | Posted by JOE at 2019-10-22 10:24 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

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