Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, December 03, 2019

The Vietnam draft lotteries functioned as a randomized experiment -- which has allowed social scientists to study its life-changing effects.

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I wonder what number Private Bone Spurs got in the lottery? America has a history of sending poor boys off to war while rich boys stay home and profiteer off of the wars.

#1 | Posted by danni at 2019-12-03 08:12 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

I wonder what number Private Bone Spurs got in the lottery?

#1 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2019-12-03 08:12 AM | FLAG:

I've seen sources claim #346 for the first draft in 1969. I've seen paperwork for Donald John Trump at number 580 for the 70-76 draft tables.

iirc, no number over 215 was called. Trump would never be called up along with most of the populace. Also people that would never called up would include, GWB at 327. Clinton at 311. Billy Crystal (yes, the actor) at 354. David Letterman at 346.

People called up, Al Gore 030 (not drafted, enlisted to be a campaign prop for his dad, ended up seeing combat). Clarence Thomas 109 (drafted, dq'd for scoliosis). Alito, 032 (drafted, became a captain by deferring active duty to stay in college), Pat Sajak was double digits (enlisted before being drafted, became an Army DJ, yes that's a thing), Oliver Stone 132 (enlisted, requested combat duty).

#2 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2019-12-03 10:19 AM | Reply

In an interesting segue on the same topic, while my favorite of the clown car so far, Mayor Pete, is up there pushing an issue I don't agree with, mandatory public service. Not a great plan, Yougov polling on just that topic came out very recently. Mandatory service is extremely unpopular no matter if it's military or civil, especially among the young voting populace it would be foisted upon.

#3 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2019-12-03 10:24 AM | Reply

Danni what was your draft number?

#4 | Posted by visitor_ at 2019-12-03 10:25 AM | Reply

Al Gore 030 (not drafted, enlisted to be a campaign prop for his dad, ended up seeing combat).

He was finally shipped to Vietnam on January 2, 1971

He received an honorable discharge from the Army in May 1971

Gore didnt see combat. He was barely there 4 months. Hell, that's not enough time to sit your gear down. It takes about 1 month to discharge someone, so he was probably in country for what 8 weeks?

#5 | Posted by boaz at 2019-12-03 10:31 AM | Reply

Oliver Stone, now THAT was combat service..

In April 1967, Stone enlisted in the United States Army and requested combat duty in Vietnam. From September 16, 1967 to April 1968, he served in Vietnam with 2nd Platoon, B Company, 3rd Battalion, 22nd Infantry Regiment, 25th Infantry Division and was twice wounded in action.[22] He was then transferred to the 1st Cavalry Division participating in long range patrols before being transferred again to drive for a motorized infantry unit of the division until November 1968.[25] For his service, his military awards include the Bronze Star with "V" Device for valor, the Purple Heart with Oak Leaf Cluster to denote two awards, the Air Medal, the Army Commendation Medal, the National Defense Service Medal, the Vietnam Service Medal, the Vietnam Campaign Medal and the Combat Infantryman Badge.

en.wikipedia.org

#6 | Posted by boaz at 2019-12-03 10:36 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Gore didnt see combat.

#5 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2019-12-03 10:31 AM | FLAG:

I mixed him up with Kerry. People went after his record hard, but the enlisted men from his own crew backed him up. I take their word for it.

#7 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2019-12-03 12:24 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#2 | Posted by sitzkrieg

A person only got 1 lottery number.

#8 | Posted by Sniper at 2019-12-03 01:18 PM | Reply


".....America has a history of sending poor boys off to war while rich boys stay home....."

#1 | POSTED BY DANNI

Yep. And here's a list of many of America's elite who stayed home. These guys run the country.

www.nndb.com

#9 | Posted by shane at 2019-12-03 01:36 PM | Reply

A person only got 1 lottery number.

#8 | POSTED BY SNIPER AT 2019-12-03 01:18 PM | FLAG:

How does the system actually work in practice? It's well before my time.

#10 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2019-12-03 01:52 PM | Reply

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#10 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG >

It went by your birthday. They would put 366 capsules in a bowl. Inside each capsule was a day of the year (including February 29th). They would draw one capsule at a time and read the date.

See the link below and see how you would've done back in the draft lottery of 1969. The first 195 picks eventually ended up serving.

www.google.com

#11 | Posted by shane at 2019-12-03 04:00 PM | Reply

With respect to my situation, by the time the lottery came along, it was a moot point. I had already 'avoided the draft' by enlisting in the Army reserves while in college. When I finally graduated, I was married, had two kids and the war was winding down, so I ended-up never actually serving any active duty time. But I have an honorable discharge stuffed in a box of old files somewhere. My brother, a year younger than me, 'avoided the draft' by enlisting in the regular Army. He ended-up serving two tours in Vietnam. Years later, as a member of the Michigan National Guard, he served a tour in Iraq before finally retiring, when he turned 60, at the rank of First sergeant.

Our oldest was an Army infantry sergeant during the first gulf war and then did a year on the DMZ in Korea. He's now an executive at a large Houston-based dining, hospitality, entertainment and gaming corporation.

OCU

#12 | Posted by OCUser at 2019-12-03 06:08 PM | Reply

Mandatory service is extremely unpopular no matter if it's military or civil, especially among the young voting populace it would be foisted upon.

Throw in a mandatory paycheck and ten more years of this economy and they will change their tune.

The military is a solid career opportunity that probably offers more to most people, over a lifetime, than trying to work your way into the real world if you aren't already connected.

#13 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-03 06:19 PM | Reply

For the record, if I had been subject to the lottery, which was held on December 1, 1969 (I was a reservist at the time), my number would have been 116, low enough that I probably would have been drafted. However, in my brother's case, his number would have been 196, high enough that he probably would have not been called, but at the time of the drawing, he was in the middle of his second tour in 'nam.

OCU

#14 | Posted by OCUser at 2019-12-03 06:22 PM | Reply

Know anyone who gayed their way out, pretend or otherwise?

#15 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-03 06:30 PM | Reply

My lottery number was 30-something. It was 1969 and the war was hot. My aptitude test scores were such that I would be given 6 weeks training, plus officer training, and would prolly have been dropped into the front lines... where the life expectancy of an new Lt. coming in charge of a combat group was days, not weeks; if the "-----" didn't get him, his own men would to keep him from getting them killed.

Ali was a hero to many of us; he had refused service nearly two years before, even though the Army had offered to put him in exhibition bouts only for troop moral, he would have never seen the front lines. He knew that, and still he refused which cost him his title and many of his best fighting years.

Here's the short version of what he had to say when confronted by students on campus:

www.youtube.com

There are more vids of full speeches to USC in '68 and to Harvard.

Our generation hit the streets protesting the war and eventually winning over the "Silent Majority" to oppose it.

I was given a 6 month deferral because of a collapsed ulnar nerve in my left elbow; they had me go to Baylor Hosp, hooked up electrodes to my arm and shocked it to test the strength. But guess what? The months past and I never heard from them, ever again. Apparently they lost my paperwork. I certainly wasn't going to call them.

But like many others, my life choices revolved for several years around not knowing whether I would be drafted on any given day... and reading this article and the studies about what happened to people who were is enlightening. Even not having actually been drafted, my life was negatively affected by just the threat of the draft, as were the lives of many others.

#16 | Posted by Corky at 2019-12-03 10:22 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

See the link below and see how you would've done back in the draft lottery of 1969.

#11 | POSTED BY SHANE AT 2019-12-03 04:00 PM | FLAG:

Drafted.

#17 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2019-12-04 07:51 AM | Reply

The military is a solid career opportunity that probably offers more to most people, over a lifetime, than trying to work your way into the real world if you aren't already connected.

#13 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2019-12-03 06:19 PM | FLAG:

As far as compensation, there is a committee that goes over it regularly. The way the direct compensation pay scale work precludes % based increases, it makes the budget explode. They rely on non-monentary compensation. You have to maximize it to get to within the +/- 2% of civilian equivalent total compensation. Most don't maximize that. It's very much what you make of it.

#18 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2019-12-04 07:54 AM | Reply

He ended-up serving two tours in Vietnam. Years later, as a member of the Michigan National Guard, he served a tour in Iraq before finally retiring, when he turned 60, at the rank of First sergeant.

Ocuser,

Men like your brother were gold to me when I first came into the service in the Early 90's. Especially those who did actual combat in Vietnam, not many were left on active duty then. While their ranks may not have been that high, their respect factor among troops was high and their opinions were highly valued.

When I was in command in the 82nd, there was a warrant officer pilot, CW5, who had flew combat missions in Vietnam. He had something like an ungodly 5000+ combat hours flying the UH-60. He was at least 60+ years old. He was the only person I've ever seen in my 20+ years in the military who could tell a full bird COL(O6) that he was making a stupid decision in a combat situation. We were once flying a low threat combat route in Afghanistan. The Helicopter started shuddering and started to give alarms. Since he was flying, I asked him over the radio was everything ok.. he said and I quote "Shut the f%#k up Captain".

I shut up...

#19 | Posted by boaz at 2019-12-04 08:49 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#7 | Posted by sitzkrieg

Word.

#20 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2019-12-04 10:54 AM | Reply

Many well connected men never even got put into the pool. Like everything political it was rigged.

#21 | Posted by Sniper at 2019-12-04 11:25 AM | Reply

"Many well connected men never even got put into the pool. Like everything political it was rigged."

True, guys like Donald Trump paid his doctor for a note claiming he had bone spurs so he got deferment.

#22 | Posted by danni at 2019-12-04 12:20 PM | Reply

Funny how someone not subject to the draft or selective service makes negative comments on someone that beat the draft through different means.

#23 | Posted by visitor_ at 2019-12-04 04:08 PM | Reply

Snoofy: Know anyone who gayed their way out, pretend or otherwise?

Me: Have you tried looking on Grindr?

#24 | Posted by visitor_ at 2019-12-04 04:09 PM | Reply

"Funny how someone not subject to the draft or selective service"

It's not Danni's fault women didn't get drafted, and still to this day don't have to register with Selective Service.

#25 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-04 04:31 PM | Reply

Technically I wasn't subject to the draft either (I enlisted in the Army reserves a few weeks after my 18th birthday), and yet I feel no compunction whatsoever about criticizing Trump and other 'chickenhawks' who wrap themselves in the flag and talk like John Wayne, yet have never warn a uniform in defense of their country. My point was that someone like Danni, whether she was subject to the draft or not, has the same right as any other American to express their displeasure with people like Trump, who, after his father's money kept him out of the Army, bragged that his 'Vietnam' was fighting to avoid contracting STD's and claiming that Don Jr and Eric contributed to the defense of the country by joining the family business, and that their skill as marksmen was put to better use killing big game in Africa.

OCU

#26 | Posted by OCUser at 2019-12-05 01:15 AM | Reply

Of course she has a right to express her opinions, but it should be recognized her opinion is coming from a place of privilege. Judging a decision she was never nor will never have to make.

I was just a little young for the draft, but had a low number. When I tried to enlist, I found out my hearing was bad.

#27 | Posted by visitor_ at 2019-12-05 07:35 AM | Reply

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