Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Monday, December 09, 2019

Jewish groups denounced President Donald Trump Sunday for anti-Semitic tropes after he referred to some Jewish voters in the real estate business as "brutal killers" who will vote for him to dodge a wealth tax.

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Author Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg tweeted: "It's not even coded anti-semitism. It's not a dog whistle. He's saying this. Out loud. To a room full of Jews."

The president also resurrected his own version of a Native American slur by again calling Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) "Pocahontas," who he falsely claimed wants to take "100% of your wealth away."

Trump told the crowd: "A lot of you are in the real estate business because I know you very well. You're brutal killers. Not nice people at all." Some in the crowd laughed. "But you have to vote for me; you have no choice. You're not going to vote for Pocahontas, I can tell you that ... You're not going to vote for the wealth tax." (See the video above at 27:00.)

He added: "Even if you don't like me; some of you don't. Some of you I don't like at all, actually. And you're going to be my biggest supporters because you'll be out of business in about 15 minutes if they [Democrats] get" the presidency.

Progressive Jewish advocacy group J Street tweeted that Trump is "incapable of addressing Jewish audiences without dipping into the deep well of anti-Semitic tropes that shape his worldview."


Is this simply Trump being so sure of himself that he doesn't care who he alienates, or due to the stress that he under, is the REAL Trump coming the surface, the bigoted, White nationalist?

OCU

#1 | Posted by OCUser at 2019-12-09 01:06 AM | Reply

"negative stereotypes that have been used historically to target Jews"

If Jews can't defeat negative stereotypes in the marketplace of ideas, then Anti-Semitism rightfully deserves to win.

#2 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-09 01:16 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"If Jews can't defeat negative stereotypes in the marketplace of ideas, then Anti-Semitism rightfully deserves to win."

Baloney. There should not be negative stereotypes for them to have to defeat.

#3 | Posted by danni at 2019-12-09 10:12 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

"Trump also complained that some Jews "don't love Israel enough""

Well you gotta pander to the Nazi base.

#4 | Posted by Nixon at 2019-12-09 12:57 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

holy smokes. this is bananas.

#5 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2019-12-09 01:30 PM | Reply

Trump is doing his best concern trolling and shame trolling.

It's all he's got.

#6 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-12-09 01:33 PM | Reply

"If Jews can't defeat negative stereotypes in the marketplace of ideas, then Anti-Semitism rightfully deserves to win."

Baloney. There should not be negative stereotypes for them to have to defeat.
#3 | POSTED BYDANNI"

Danni,

I was echoing what Deplorables like JeffJ and Nullifidian say about Nazis having the right to speak on college campuses without being heckled:

Nazi ideals must be given a seat at the table of rational discourse; not doing so abridges their First Amendment rights.

I regret that I didn't make that more clear.

#7 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-09 01:37 PM | Reply

I was echoing what Deplorables like JeffJ and Nullifidian say about Nazis having the right to speak on college campuses without being heckled:

Nice strawman.

#8 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-12-09 01:40 PM | Reply

Not a straw man, it's exactly what you think.

#9 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-09 01:43 PM | Reply

No, it isn't.

#10 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-12-09 01:45 PM | Reply

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There is a truth to what Trump is saying.

The greedy will vote for Trump in order to maintain their tax breaks.

Pretty sure that was his actual message.

#11 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-12-09 01:49 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

F*** this schmuck,

no Jew should have to put up with such slander..

#12 | Posted by Tor at 2019-12-09 05:49 PM | Reply

There is a truth to what Trump is saying.

The greedy will vote for Trump in order to maintain their tax breaks.

Pretty sure that was his actual message.

#11 | Posted by ClownShack

Of course it was, and that part is true. But then for him to specifically say "jews" means he therefore thinks jews are greedy.

Jews are often very smart. And very smart people can see the harm he represents for the world.

My best friend is jewish and would never vote for trump. My idiot christian relatives happily do.

#13 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-12-09 06:00 PM | Reply

-My idiot christian relatives happily do.

maybe they are idiots because they are related to you, not because they're christians.

just sayin....

#14 | Posted by eberly at 2019-12-09 06:05 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

just sayin....

#14 | Posted by eberly

A regular "both parties" arguer is calling someone else an idiot. Precious....

#15 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2019-12-09 06:14 PM | Reply

I am precious. But not because you think so ...

#16 | Posted by eberly at 2019-12-09 06:19 PM | Reply

I've known Jews that were stereotypically greedy Jews.

You know what they weren't? Self-destructive and Trump is not good for them or any other group in America.

#17 | Posted by Tor at 2019-12-09 06:29 PM | Reply

holy smokes. this is bananas.

#5 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER AT 2019-12-09 01:30 PM | FLAG:

Are you saying Trump ate the $120,000 banana?

#18 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2019-12-09 08:48 PM | Reply

The essential element of racism is treating all members of a racial group based on the behavior of a few.

Trump is a Fascist. He pals around with Fascists like Putin, MBS, Kim, Erdogan, Nuttyahoo.

Trump wants jews to love a Fascist Israel. There are many jews who love the Socialist Israel.

#19 | Posted by bored at 2019-12-09 08:53 PM | Reply

Nice strawman.

#8 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

How so? I am pretty sure I have heard you railing against the "heckler's veto" in the past.

Are you saying protection from the "heckler's veto" apply to other conservatives but not "Nazis"?

#20 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2019-12-09 10:01 PM | Reply

Is this simply Trump being so sure of himself that he doesn't care who he alienates, or due to the stress that he under, is the REAL Trump coming the surface, the bigoted, White nationalist?
OCU

#1 | POSTED BY OCUSER AT 2019-12-09 01:06 AM | FLAG:

Can there be a third choice?
A mildly to moderately bigoted rich 73 year old CEO?

How many wealthy to super wealthy rich men in their early 70s who are still working do you know?

I know one, he's much nicer than Trump, he's a generous Christian man whose faithful to his wife but I think ALL OF THEM are kinda like President Trump.

The world has changed a lot since since 1946.

Not an excuse for prejudiced behavior but an explanation. My close friend, a church leader, can't vote vote for him because of this stuff and I have NO PROBLEM with that. I'm not sure I can either.

#21 | Posted by drivelikejehu at 2019-12-10 07:31 AM | Reply

I'm surprised he didn't comment about how they don't tip the waitress at the diner.

#22 | Posted by JeffJ at 2019-12-10 09:54 AM | Reply

So when will the people who spent weeks screaming about Ilhan Omar's "all about the benjamins" comment begin calling for Trump's resignation over this?

#23 | Posted by JOE at 2019-12-10 10:43 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#23

Never. People weren't upset with Ilhan Omar over what she said. Rather, they're disgusted by what she is. A black Muslim female immigrant.

#24 | Posted by ClownShack at 2019-12-10 11:13 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

And this is why Trump has a following. I definitely am glad he is able to do this. He didn't say anything hateful. He didn't say anything that incites violence. He didn't say he didn't like Jews. He didn't say they are bad people. The only thing he said that could be offensive at all is to call people in real estate "killers". Otherwise, all he did was generalize a stereotype, and stereotypes only exist because they have a basis in reality. There is nothing hateful about this. Now, had he said something like, "Because you are Jews, I'm going to treat you differently"...then that's offensive. But he didn't make any statement that alludes to racism or hate in any way.

The day that we are not allowed to say things because we are scared for our lives is the day this country has failed. And the sad truth is that Liberals are making that day come sooner than it probably would anyways.

#25 | Posted by humtake at 2019-12-10 12:48 PM | Reply

#25 Do you think Ilhan Omar is an anti-semite? Did you defend her comments and say you were glad she was able to make them?

#26 | Posted by JOE at 2019-12-10 01:12 PM | Reply

This will fire up the base and that's all that really matters to Orange Agent. And until enough people get off their butts and vote for something else that's all he needs to worry about.

#27 | Posted by SomebodyElse at 2019-12-11 12:01 PM | Reply

#7 An actual Nazi hasn't spoken on a college campus since George Lincoln Rockwell spoke at Brown in 1966.

#28 | Posted by Karabekian at 2019-12-11 02:32 PM | Reply

What's an "actual Nazi?"

#29 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 02:44 PM | Reply

Whereas self-identified Marxists not only are welcome speakers, but form a large portion of the professoriat in social sciences and humanities.

#30 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-12-11 03:05 PM | Reply

"Whereas self-identified Marxists..."

Only a Nazi apologist would even go there:

Marxism is a method of socioeconomic analysis that views class relations and social conflict using a materialist interpretation of historical development and takes a dialectical view of social transformation. It originates from the works of 19th-century German philosophers Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. en.wikipedia.org

National Socialism (German: Nationalsozialismus), more commonly known as Nazism (/ntsiz'm, n ... t-/),[1] is the ideology and practices associated with the Nazi Party"officially the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or NSDAP)"in Nazi Germany, and of other far-right groups with similar ideas and aims. en.wikipedia.org

#31 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 03:14 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#29 You know, real Nazis. You've only ever seen them on TV.

#32 | Posted by Karabekian at 2019-12-11 03:21 PM | Reply

"#29 You know, real Nazis."

So, not these guys?
West Virginia prison staff suspended over Nazi salute
www.bbc.com

Not these guys?
The Unite the Right rally[4] was a white supremacist and neo-Nazi[5][6][7][8] rally that was conducted in Charlottesville, Virginia, from August 11 to 12, 2017.
en.wikipedia.org

#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 03:27 PM | Reply

#33 What universities did they speak at?

#34 | Posted by Karabekian at 2019-12-11 03:34 PM | Reply

They have to speak at universities to be real Nazis?

Man, it sure is hard to get into your club!

#35 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 03:37 PM | Reply

#35 Your question in #29 was in response to my post in #7: "An actual Nazi hasn't spoken on a college campus since George Lincoln Rockwell spoke at Brown in 1966."

Your responses in #33/#35 were non sequitur and willfully obtuse; your examples of (yes) Real Nazis have never spoken at a university, so not germane to my comment.

You don't strike me as the kind of unhinged loon who thinks Ben Shapiro or Ann Coulter are actual Nazis. You're not, are you?

#36 | Posted by Karabekian at 2019-12-11 03:56 PM | Reply

More white supremacist propaganda showing up on US campuses
By MICHAEL R. SISAK June 27, 2019
apnews.com

The ADL report documented 313 cases of white supremacist propaganda on college campuses between Sept. 1, 2018, and May 31, 2019, all of them stemming from organizations associated with what's known as the alt-right movement.

That was a 7% increase from the previous academic year, when there were 292 cases, according to the ADL.

The 2017-2018 tally marked a 77% increase from the previous academic year.

#37 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 04:03 PM | Reply

#37

313 cases across 5,300 campus in the span of an academic school year is higher than it should be, but hardly an epidemic. Besides, just about every university and college library across the country has a copy of Mein Kampf gathering dust on its shelves, so unauthorized "It's Okay to Be White" and "MAGA" fliers are hardly razor-edged Nazi propaganda points in comparison to what these institutions officially tolerate as a matter of policy.

Curious that the AP story linked has no actual examples of the 313 incidents cited.

#38 | Posted by Karabekian at 2019-12-11 04:33 PM | Reply

"313 cases across 5,300 campus in the span of an academic school year is higher than it should be, but hardly an epidemic."

Obviously the ADL is going to use alarmist language.
That's what they do.
The 77% increase is Trump's legacy.

#39 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 04:45 PM | Reply

"It's Okay to Be White" and "MAGA" fliers are hardly razor-edged Nazi propaganda points"

They're ostensibly dull-witted Nazi propaganda points, but actually cleverly designed to get camel's nose of Nazi ideology under the tent of rational discourse.

#40 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 04:47 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#40 According to SDSU's library database, there are at least five copies of Mein Kampf on the shelves, plus one copy of its "unpublished sequel" (who knew?), in addition to many volumes of critical material about it. UC Berkley's library has even more copies - in several languages.

When I was in the army I got popped for having "communist" material in my locker - a Communist Workers Party newspaper I bought at an anti-apartheid demonstration from a hot Irishy-looking chick in front of the South African embassy in London. I was told I could not be in possession of "communist propaganda." My defense was that our modest post library had a copy of Mein Kampf as a matter of official policy, so nothing in my newspaper ought to be considered objectionable by comparison. I "won" to the extent that one can win such battles in the army, but....

Anyway, it seems hypocritical that relatively ambiguous slogans from students are seen as problematic when universities provide copies of the motherlode of actual Nazi propaganda as a matter of policy:

DD247.H5.

#41 | Posted by Karabekian at 2019-12-11 05:35 PM | Reply

"I bought at an anti-apartheid demonstration from a hot Irishy-looking chick in front of the South African embassy in London. I was told I could not be in possession of "communist propaganda."

Awesome story!
That was the Party Line of the Western Powers back then: "In 1955, the Congress of the People officially adopted the Freedom Charter, stating the core principles of the South African Congress Alliance, which consisted of the African National Congress and its allies the South African Communist Party (SACP), the South African Indian Congress, the South African Congress of Democrats (COD) and the Coloured People's Congress.[9] The government claimed that this was a communist document, and consequently leaders of the ANC and Congress were arrested."
en.wikipedia.org

#42 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 05:45 PM | Reply

"Anyway, it seems hypocritical"

You don't strike me as the kind of unhinged loon who thinks Tu Quoque arguments are valid.

#43 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 05:46 PM | Reply

#43 Pointing out hypocrisy isn't a tu quoque fallacy, unless the original premise is being rejected as a result. This isn't a tu quoque fallacy. This isn't a tu quoque fallacy:

UNIVERSITY: WEARING A MAGA HAT IS OFFENSIVE (Premise A)
STUDENT: SO IS HAVING HALF A DOZEN COPIES OF MEIN KAMPF ON THE UNIVERSITY BOOKSHELF (Premise B)
ME:I DON'T THINK EITHER OF THEM IS OFFENSIVE, BUT BE CONSISTENT, UNIVERSITY ADMINISTRATORS, OTHERWISE YOU LOOK LIKE HYPOCRITES (Conclusion)


I don't reject Premise A because of Premise B. I reject both premises on the grounds that they're both stupid, but my conclusion that in such a scenario the university is clearly, demonstrably hypocritical is sound.

#44 | Posted by Karabekian at 2019-12-11 06:30 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I'm not in favor of banning books, so, there's that.

#45 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 06:35 PM | Reply

Tu quoque (/tjukwokwi, tukwokwe/; Latin for "you also"), or the appeal to hypocrisy, is a fallacy that intends to discredit the opponent's argument by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with its conclusion(s).

#46 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 06:44 PM | Reply

Pointing out hypocrisy isn't a rhetorical tu quoque fallacy in-and-of-itself unless it is used to discredit the original premise.

My doctor smokes. He tells me I shouldn't smoke because it's bad for me. I agree, but point out he smokes, so he is a hypocrite = Not tu quoque
My doctor smokes. He tells me I shouldn't smoke because it's bad for me. I disagree, pointing out he smokes, so he must be a liar and a hypocrite = tu quoque

#47 | Posted by Karabekian at 2019-12-11 07:21 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Sorry, but there's no way for "the appeal to hypocrisy" to not be a logical fallacy.

And you are certainly appealing to the University's hypocrisy, when you point to Mein Kampf on the library shelves.

#48 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 07:27 PM | Reply

--Pointing out hypocrisy isn't a rhetorical tu quoque fallacy in-and-of-itself unless it is used to discredit the original premise.

No matter how many times you, me and others point that out, posters continue to make that mistake on an almost daily basis.

#49 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-12-11 07:29 PM | Reply

Your thing about smoking is more in line with cognitive dissonance.

I know drinking causes cancer. I don't want cancer. I drink anyway. I'm in a state of cognitive dissonance. Heck, maybe that's why I need a drink in the first place! :)

#50 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 07:29 PM | Reply

"Pointing out hypocrisy isn't a rhetorical tu quoque fallacy in-and-of-itself unless it is used to discredit the original premise."

There is no reason to point it out, other than to discredit the hypocrite.

#51 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 07:30 PM | Reply

If a wealthy climatista flies private jets, that's hypocrisy, but not tu quoque unless you claim that his private behavior disproves catastrophic global warming.

#52 | Posted by nullifidian at 2019-12-11 07:33 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

What other reason would you point that out?

Jealousy perhaps? Okay, but that's not even a logical premise to begin with.

#53 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 07:34 PM | Reply

Any of the rhetorical logical fallacies hinges on the rhetorician's desire to falsify the original premise. I don't reject the premise I shouldn't smoke because it's bad for me just because the doctor is a hypocrite. If I rejected the premise because the doctor is a hypocrite, that would be a logical fallacy.

#54 | Posted by Karabekian at 2019-12-11 07:37 PM | Reply

OTHERWISE YOU LOOK LIKE HYPOCRITES (Conclusion)

^
Conclusion is that the university looks like hypocrites.
It is of no relevance that the university looks like hypocrites, at least not logically.

#55 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 08:40 PM | Reply

"Anyway, it seems hypocritical that relatively ambiguous slogans from students are seen as problematic when universities provide copies of the motherlode of actual Nazi propaganda as a matter of policy"

"relatively ambiguous slogans from students are seen as problematic"

It's only relatively ambiguous when considered in the absolute absence of context.

The context of "It's OK To Be White" is at best, trolling the libs; at worst, a paean to white nationalism.

Which explains the difference between Mein Kampf on a library shelf and person in front of that library wearing a Swastika arm band.

It's not hypocritical to tolerate libraries containing primary source Nazi documents, while not tolerating actual Nazis, or Nazi beliefs in society.

#56 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 09:02 PM | Reply

#55 My conclusion that, in that scenario, the university is hypocritical has no bearing on how I view the original premise. It is an aside that happens to be true, regardless of the validity of the original premise. Whether or not wearing a MAGA hat or having Mein Kampf on the bookshelf is "offensive" is subjective. I don't believe either is offensive, regardless of what others believe. I DO believe that if you find MAGA hats offensive, it defies common sense that you would not then find Mein Kampf offensive. It's completely defensible and reasonable to believe such a person is a hypocrite. Do you not think hypocrisy should be pointed out? Have you never pointed out hypocrisy on this forum?

The DR isn't a rolling RWS100 seminar and we're not writing argumentative essays here for Professor Elbow Patch; we're a bunch of strangers having a series of casual conversations about topics that are often rife with examples of politicians and other public figures behaving as hypocrites.

#57 | Posted by Karabekian at 2019-12-11 09:11 PM | Reply

"It's completely defensible and reasonable to believe such a person is a hypocrite. Do you not think hypocrisy should be pointed out?"

I must not have made myself clear.
I think the only reason hypocrisy is pointed out is to discredit the point of view of the person being pointed at.
If that's not why you're positing out hypocrisy, then why?

#58 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 09:21 PM | Reply

#58 Well, perhaps not their point of view, but their personal character. I can agree with the premise that "smoking is bad," even if the doctor who tells me that is a smoker himself. In a casual conversation, such as this one, I would point out that the doctor, being a smoker himself, is a hypocrite. It doesn't mean I am using the doctor's hypocrisy to invalidate or discredit the idea that I shouldn't smoke. Perhaps it means I'm just pointing out the fact that the doctor is a hypocrite because it makes the story more interesting, gives it a twist, or makes the doctor sound more "human." I wouldn't use this strategy in an academic exercise. On the DR? Why, it's practically de rigueur for the lot of us!

#59 | Posted by Karabekian at 2019-12-11 09:50 PM | Reply

"I can agree with the premise that "smoking is bad"

But can you agree with the premise that "Nazi is bad?"

"It doesn't mean I am using the doctor's hypocrisy to invalidate or discredit the idea that I shouldn't smoke."

Then what does it mean, that you find the University hypocritical?

#60 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-11 09:52 PM | Reply

In the hypothetical above? That it would be hypocritical for this imaginary university to bring to task an imaginary student for wearing a MAGA hat on the premise that it is a couched Nazi message when it's own library carries multiple volumes of the mother lode of actual Nazi messaging.

#61 | Posted by Karabekian at 2019-12-11 10:14 PM | Reply

"In the hypothetical above?"

313 cases across 5,300 campuses is not hypothetical, nor is the presence of Mein Kampf on the library shelves, so honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about any more.

#62 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-12 12:38 AM | Reply

"Then what does it mean, that you find the University hypocritical?"

"In the hypothetical above? That it would be hypocritical..."

Yeah, that's not answering the question.

I think I can see what's going on here.

#63 | Posted by snoofy at 2019-12-12 12:40 AM | Reply

63. I don't know what question you're asking anymore. "Nazis are bad?"? Yes. What in anything above suggests otherwise? That I'm not offended by MAGA hats and Mein Kampf? I'm not offended by Che t-shirts or the Communist Manifesto, either. Doesn't make me a Stalinist. I I thought you were interested in rhetorical strategies.

#64 | Posted by Karabekian at 2019-12-12 01:17 AM | Reply

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