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Friday, January 10, 2020

What links an eccentric Oxford classics don, billionaire US evangelicals, and a tiny, missing fragment of an ancient manuscript? Charlotte Higgins unravels a multimillion-dollar riddle.

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Tom Hanks could star in the movie version of this complex whodoneit story.

It's really the awful story ofrwing faux-christian billionaires willing to flood the antiquities market with huge amounts of cash... and then being surprised when that generates fakes and stolen artifacts.

The church I've belonged to for 30+ years actually has the largest collection of ancient bible manuscripts extant in private hands. No stolen papyrus, though.

#1 | Posted by Corky at 2020-01-10 11:54 AM | Reply

"The church I've belonged to for 30+ years
#1 | POSTED BY CORKY "

Why is the Church of Climatology collecting bibles?

#2 | Posted by iragoldberg at 2020-01-10 09:07 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

Why is the Church of Climatology collecting bibles?

#2 | POSTED BY IRAGOLDBERG AT 2020-01-10 09:07 PM | FLAG:

Because dumbasses like you are heading this up? Just a thought.. go play elsewhere
.

#3 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2020-01-10 10:11 PM | Reply

Herr Ira belongs to the Church of Hitler Apologists.

Ax' him about how Hitler was going to take care of the Jews so well in Madagascar. He says they would have been fine there.

drudge.com

www.history.com

en.wikipedia.org

#4 | Posted by Corky at 2020-01-11 01:13 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#4 | Posted by Corky When you associate someone with the Nazis, best to have your own house in order. If anyone right of center can be associated with the Austrian paper hanger, then every leftist can be attached at the hip with Stalin, Mao, Pol-pot, Etc.

#5 | Posted by docnjo at 2020-01-11 08:15 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#5 | POSTED BY DOCNJO

Ahhh... A good old appeal to hypocrisy. A favorite logical fallacy of conservatives.

It seems corky made a pretty strong case showing ira's sympathetic views toward Nazis, and all you can bring up in defense is a logical fallacy? How about you comment on the evidence and links that corky actually presented? Do you agree with ira's comments and position?

#6 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2020-01-11 08:57 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Because your use of logical fallacies to deflect indicates defense and support of ira. This is why conservatives like you are seen as associated with Nazis and their ideology. You may not spout it, but you do your best to support and defend it.

#7 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2020-01-11 08:59 AM | Reply

When you associate someone with the Nazis, best to have your own house in order. If anyone right of center can be associated with the Austrian paper hanger, then every leftist can be attached at the hip with Stalin, Mao, Pol-pot, Etc.

#5 | Posted by docnjo at 2

Donald Trump is a behavioral Nazis, not an ideological one.

In the Third Reich that would have inhibited his rise in Party structure.

#8 | Posted by Zed at 2020-01-11 09:08 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#7 | Posted by gtbritishskull, The National Socialist German Worker's Party was as left as they could be. They hated international socialist and Communist, which was the Soviet Union or allied with the CCCP. You might need to read some history, like the Nazi platform they got elected on. Yep, the German people elected Hitler.
#8 | Posted by Zed, Tell me when the Trump supporters organize street gangs and attack people on the street. That seems to be the soul domain of the black block/ANTIFA.

#9 | Posted by docnjo at 2020-01-11 10:14 AM | Reply

#7 | Posted by gtbritishskull, The National Socialist German Worker's Party was as left as they could be. They hated international socialist and Communist, which was the Soviet Union or allied with the CCCP. You might need to read some history, like the Nazi platform they got elected on. Yep, the German people elected Hitler.
#8 | Posted by Zed, Tell me when the Trump supporters organize street gangs and attack people on the street. That seems to be the soul domain of the black block/ANTIFA.

#9 | Posted by docnjo at 2020-01-11 10:14 AM | Reply

Whut!?! We seem to have a non sequitur accompanied by a fallacy. Again, whut!?!
Settle down, Beavis; try it again.

#10 | Posted by john47 at 2020-01-11 10:42 AM | Reply

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"The National Socialist German Worker's Party was as left as they could be."

Riiiiiiiight, And just like lefties, they were against gays, blacks, the disabled, Jews, Slavs, unionists, and the educated.

Seriously, can you taste the stupid when you post something that dumb?

#11 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-01-11 10:45 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Tell me when the Trump supporters organize street gangs and attack people on the street.

#9 | Posted by docnjo at

You mean you won't know?

Look for street gangs if he's impeached or voted out of office.

#12 | Posted by Zed at 2020-01-11 10:48 AM | Reply

That's is to say: look for Trump gangs if for some miracle (by the Grace of God He loves us) Trump is convicted in the Senate.

#13 | Posted by Zed at 2020-01-11 10:49 AM | Reply

#9 | Posted by docnjo at

There's something bad wrong with Trump. After all this time people like you refuse to acknowledge that.

I try to explain Donald sometimes by calling him a Nazis; indeed, he has many of the instincts and behaviors of a Nazi.

More often I explain him by pointing out the obvious truth of his mental illness.

But mental illness and Nazism are not mutually exclusive.

#14 | Posted by Zed at 2020-01-11 10:52 AM | Reply

"The National Socialist German Worker's Party was as left as they could be."

Riiiiiiiight, And just like lefties, they were against gays, blacks, the disabled, Jews, Slavs, unionists, and the educated.

Seriously, can you taste the stupid when you post something that dumb?

#11 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-01-11 10:45 AM | Reply | Flag:

He'll keep on repeating that idiocy.

And when Trump tells him the GOP is now called the National Socialist Worker's Party, he'll be fine with that.

#15 | Posted by Zed at 2020-01-11 10:54 AM | Reply

The National Socialist German Worker's Party was as left as they could be.

LOL there are few dumber than those who spew the 'Nazis were lefties' canard.

#16 | Posted by jpw at 2020-01-11 11:45 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Riiiiiiiight, And just like lefties, they were against gays, blacks, the disabled, Jews, Slavs, unionists, and the educated.
Seriously, can you taste the stupid when you post something that dumb?

#11 | POSTED BY DANFORTH

The National Socialist German Worker's Party was as left as they could be.
LOL there are few dumber than those who spew the 'Nazis were lefties' canard.

#16 | POSTED BY JPW "

To the shallow two-dimensional thinker, both "Nazis are right wing and Nazis are left wing are both right and wrong.

Nazism was a form of state capitalism much as Argentia uses. I won't give a lesson on this type of economy, culture, and politics (too long and google is your friend).

But economically a good example is that the state (Germany) dictated how many widgets were to be produced. That is a very socialist concept. However,capitalism determined how it was to happen and there was not a single producer of the widget.

E.G. Germany determined how many cars were to be built, but did not have a single state industry to do it. Mercedes, Volkswagen, etc. all made cars, but to state standards and numbers.

There are literally dozens of more examples, and I didn't even touch on the political and social differences of Nazism and American style left/right or the similarities. But the take away here is that the stupid ones are the ones who think that Nazis were either right or left wing. They may have had elements of each, but they were neither.

#17 | Posted by goatman at 2020-01-11 12:01 PM | Reply

The first thing the Nazis did when they came to power was to kill all the Socialists they could find.

And Goatfart giving lessons on anything is ludicrous; as any actual objective scholar will and has told us, the Nazis were on the Right side of the political spectrum.

And as was pointed out, I substantiated what I said about Herr Ira.

Also:

"Were the Nazis Socialists?

Were the Nazis socialists? No, not in any meaningful way, and certainly not after 1934. But to address this canard fully, one must begin with the birth of the party.

Hitler allied himself with leaders of German conservative and nationalist movements, and in January 1933 German President Paul von Hindenburg appointed him chancellor. Hitler's Third Reich had been born, and it was entirely fascist in character.

Within two months Hitler achieved full dictatorial power through the Enabling Act. In April 1933 communists, socialists, democrats, and Jews were purged from the German civil service, and trade unions were outlawed the following month.

That July Hitler banned all political parties other than his own, and prominent members of the German Communist Party and the Social Democratic Party were arrested and imprisoned in concentration camps.

Lest there be any remaining questions about the political character of the Nazi revolution, Hitler ordered the murder of Gregor Strasser, an act that was carried out on June 30, 1934, during the Night of the Long Knives. Any remaining traces of socialist thought in the Nazi Party had been extinguished."

excerpts

www.britannica.com

So, we find yet again that our rwingers here have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

#18 | Posted by Corky at 2020-01-11 12:22 PM | Reply

"And Goatfart giving lessons on anything is ludicrous;

POSTED BY CORKY"

Yet you cannot dispute my post and example. All you can do is condescend and call childish names. LOL

Have you ever considered debating as an adult -- i.e. actually rebutting a statement as a real, adult debater rather than call names as a child "debates" on the playground? Give it a try if you have the mental capacity. If you don't, continue with the name calling.

Now go whine to rcade the big bad goatman stepped on your toes. Maybe you'll get me thrown in jail again.

#19 | Posted by goatman at 2020-01-11 12:35 PM | Reply

To deny that Nazism was a state capitalistic economy is either sheer stupidity, desire to revise history, or to paint the 'other guys' as Nazis.

Throw of the hyperpartisan clothing and educate yourself for a change, corky.

www.forbes.com

#20 | Posted by goatman at 2020-01-11 12:39 PM | Reply

"So, we find yet again that our rwingers here have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

#18 | POSTED BY CORKY "

And once again we find that lwingers (I'm borrowing your broad brush for this one corky. I hope you don't mind) actually think a 5 paragraph historical blurb that takes 3 minutes to read actually is an accurate and total representation of an over two decade period of history.

Here's your broad brush back, corky.

#21 | Posted by goatman at 2020-01-11 12:42 PM | Reply

There are individual Nazis, Goat.

#22 | Posted by Zed at 2020-01-11 12:42 PM | Reply

If not for being born into money Trump would be a member of the SA.

#23 | Posted by Zed at 2020-01-11 12:45 PM | Reply

#17 | Posted by goatman You are correct, the Nazis would do anything to gain power and control. Promised social benefits to German citizens like a socialist. Promised a subdued worker by first taking labor and trade unions down and replacing them with party organizations, like the Fascist. Capitalized upon the ethnic hatred that had been a hallmark of Europe for more than a 1000 years with endless propaganda, like the Catholic Church. Promised a full scale revolution against the intelligentsia and wealthy (by the SD/Ernst Rohm), until Hitler was elected and being in power, he needed stability. The "Night of Long Knives" rid him of the Rohm problem. Sounds a lot like a Stalinist purge, a deep red communist move. The 20s and early 30s are an illustration of the power and limits of power the Nazis exercised until Hindenburg died. After that, there was no effective opposition. The essence of the Nazis was the concentration and centralization of political power and the ruthless oppression of any perceived opposition.

#24 | Posted by docnjo at 2020-01-11 12:50 PM | Reply

Though there are more than four types of societies, it more accurately portrays reality than the simple minded "left/right" the shallow thinkers try to pigeon hole everything. You have"

National Socialism where the state controls numbers, standards, specifications of products produced, but capitalism determines manner of production and compete with each other. (example, Nazism)

Pure socialism where the state controls all aspects of the economy including numbers, standards, and manner of production. There is usually only one producer in this economy: the state (example, Russia)

American style capitalism where the state largely stays out of setting numbers and specifications and lets capitalism mostly dictate output (example, the western world)

Anarchism where there is no government control at all and pure laissez faire and cutthroat capitalism. (no real examples)

#25 | Posted by goatman at 2020-01-11 12:50 PM | Reply

"Anarchism where there is no government control at all and pure laissez faire and cutthroat capitalism."

Most anarchists you find are violently anti-capitalist. In reality, they're closet Marxists. They may say they don't want government, but that doesn't mean they don't feel some mechanism is needed to control society.

The anarchists in the Spanish Civil War are a great example. They actually made the Soviets look like a sound, stabilizing force.

#26 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-01-11 12:56 PM | Reply

Correction: Rohm controlled the largest Nazi organization within the party, The SA.(Brown shirts) The SS of Himmler was still in it's infancy, they had less than 3000 members at the time. The night of the Long knives was a SD operation under Reinhard Heydrich, (CDR,Gring's personal police battalion). Heydrich was the prefect nazi; amoral, ruthless, brutal, bloodthirsty(the architect of the final solution) all while being well educated, well spoken, good looking, an excellent violinist, a pilot, and an extra ordinary playboy. I wish he had lived until we could put him on the stand at Nuremberg. But if he had been alive, the death camps he organized might have been even more effective. Dying of an infection in a hospital seems too good a way for this monster to take his exit.

#27 | Posted by docnjo at 2020-01-11 01:23 PM | Reply

"Most anarchists you find are violently anti-capitalist. In reality, they're closet Marxists. They may say they don't want government, but that doesn't mean they don't feel some mechanism is needed to control society."

Then they aren't anarchists in the true definition of the word. It's analogous to the folks who call themselves Christians, but do not live a truly Christian lifestyle.

The anarchists may say they are anti-capitalism, but they are probably referring to the way capitalism is practiced in the western world today. By definition, true anarchists definitely have an 'every man for themself' mentality which laissez-faire capitalism is when boiled down to its purest essence.

#28 | Posted by goatman at 2020-01-11 01:26 PM | Reply

There are literally dozens of more examples,

The word you're looking for is fascism.

It's characterized by a melding of industry and government under a dictator who rules under ultranationalist ideals.

The government strongly controls the economy, but it does not own the means of production.

It's so funny watching righties sputter through explanations that don't match any criteria commonly understood by historians...all to whine about libruls.

#29 | Posted by jpw at 2020-01-11 05:58 PM | Reply

Promised social benefits to German citizens like a socialist.

You're using a meaningless modern (bastardized) word to try to describe the past.

You can't do that, champ.

The Nazis weren't socialists. Period.

And yes, I know what the acronym stands for. But the words mean nothing compared to the behavior.

#30 | Posted by jpw at 2020-01-11 06:16 PM | Reply

"' There are literally dozens of more examples,'

The word you're looking for is fascism.

#29 | POSTED BY JPW

I wasn't looking for a word. My post said exactly what I meant to say. Your condescension is noted.

Yes, the Nazis were fascists. What does that have to do with my point to which you are responding judging by your C&P?

#31 | Posted by goatman at 2020-01-11 06:20 PM | Reply

"The government strongly controls the economy, but it does not own the means of production.

#29 | POSTED BY JPW "

That's what I said -- in two different posts, in fact. So why did you have to put your usual condescending "I exclusively know it all" spin on it as if you said it first?

#32 | Posted by goatman at 2020-01-11 06:23 PM | Reply

"The government strongly controls the economy, but it does not own the means of production."

What you're addressing has a name. It's called corporatism. It's the basis for most economic policies across Europe.

"The Nazis weren't socialists. Period."

National Socialist. It's kind of in the name. I don't totally disagree with you, but the economic policies promoted by the National Socialists could easily find a home with your average democratic socialist in the US. In many ways, the Nazis were even further to the left of Bernie when it came to economic policy.

#33 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-01-12 04:03 AM | Reply

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