Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Thursday, February 13, 2020

Virginia's House of Delegates passed a bill on Tuesday that would award the state's electoral votes to the national winner of the presidential popular vote.

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The votes of nearly three million Americans were, for all intents and purposes, 'suppressed' during the 2016 election. It was like they never existed.

Americans have been told, since the founding of our nation, that it's the people who determine who will serve them in government. The Constitution opens with the words:

We the People...

We've also been told that we have a system that favors proportional representation, something that was part of what we fought a revolution over, so why would denying a scheme by which that same proportional representation determines who our most powerful leaders are, be thought of as "voter suppression"?

OCU

#1 | Posted by OCUser at 2020-02-13 01:51 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Will be interesting to see what happens if Trump wins the popular vote.

#2 | Posted by sawdust at 2020-02-13 08:27 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Will be interesting to see what happens if Trump wins the popular vote.

#2 | POSTED BY SAWDUST

Exactly. I think Colorado was pushing something similar. How would you feel if you lived in 1 of these states and your preferred candidate won the state by 15 points but your state electors went to the other guy because of this stupid crap? Talk about voter disenfranchisement.

#3 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-13 08:32 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

How would you feel if you lived in 1 of these states and your preferred candidate won the state by 15 points but your state electors went to the other guy because of this stupid crap?

Probably a lot like the guy who's preferred candidate wins the popular vote but loses because of the EC.

Don't recall hearing you whine about that "disenfranchisement".

#4 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-13 10:14 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Will be interesting to see what happens if Trump wins the popular vote.

#2 | Posted by sawdust

My guess is serious fraud occurred if Trump "wins" the popular vote.

#5 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-13 10:16 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Don't recall hearing you whine about that "disenfranchisement".

#4 | POSTED BY JPW AT 2020-02-13 10:14 AM

The EC has been how presidential elections have been decided since this country was founded.

Do you honestly think this is fair to the voters of Virginia?

#6 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-13 10:17 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

My guess is serious fraud occurred if Trump "wins" the popular vote.

#5 | POSTED BY JPW AT 2020-02-13 10:16 AM | FLAG: Rationalization

Welcome to Danni-land.

#7 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-13 10:18 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Actually, the Electoral College has only DECIDED a few elections. To be accurate, in the history of the country, there have been only five cases where the person who became president received less votes than his/her opponent, however, ONLY four of them were decided by the Electoral College. John Quincy Adams 'won' his election in the House of Representatives since in the election of 1824, NO ONE got the needed number of Electoral votes.

And for what it's worth, of the remaining four, Hayes (1876), Harrison (1888), Bush (2000) and Trump (2016), it's interesting to note that they were ALL Republicans.

OCU

#8 | Posted by OCUser at 2020-02-13 11:10 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I live in VA,that said I'm not sure how I feel about this. I can see both sides and I am still not sure what I think about this. Trump needs to go WHATEVER it takes. If this does the trick,bring it on. We can always repeal later if desired then.

#9 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-02-13 12:30 PM | Reply

Will be interesting to see what happens if Trump wins the popular vote.

#2 | POSTED BY SAWDUST

It's more likely that an asteroid will wipe us out first.

But. I will have my passport ready Just in Case.

#10 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-02-13 12:45 PM | Reply

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The EC has been how presidential elections have been decided since this country was founded.

Do you honestly think this is fair to the voters of Virginia?

#6 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

It is much more fair to the voter. Of course it is. Why would you say that!?)

The electoral college is antiquated and is no longer needed. And it is anti-Democratic in its very nature.

Every other election in the nation is decided by the popular vote.

Why should the office of the President be any different?

I won't hold my breath for an answer.

#11 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-02-13 12:50 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Exactly. I think Colorado was pushing something similar. How would you feel if you lived in 1 of these states and your preferred candidate won the state by 15 points but your state electors went to the other guy because of this stupid crap? Talk about voter disenfranchisement.

#3 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

The Colorado State Government passed legislation to join the National Popular Vote Compact, and the Governor signed it in March of 2019. Citizens who were unhappy with this then raised enough signatures to place the issue in the Colorado ballot this year. So Colorado will vote on whether we stay in the National Popular Vote Compact this November.

In lieu of Congress actually eliminating the EC, I would be fine with remaining in the National Popular Vote Compact. I think the EC should be eliminated. The EC is an outdated idea. IMO, the President should be elected by popular vote.

To those who complain that the President might then be chosen by the large, liberal population centers; I say that it is then your jobs to convince the individuals in those population centers to think and vote differently.

#12 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2020-02-13 01:00 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Trump wins popular vote 400,000,000,000 to 2

#13 | Posted by Nixon at 2020-02-13 01:00 PM | Reply

The EC has been how presidential elections have been decided since this country was founded.

Does that mean it is fair? Nice "Appeal to Tradition". You can always count on conservatives to chime in with a logical fallacy and think it is a good argument.

Do you honestly think this is fair to the voters of Virginia?

#6 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Yes, I do. EVERY SINGLE ONE of their votes will now count.

And who are you to tell them what is or is not fair. They elected their representatives, and those representatives are enforcing the will of the people by passing laws that represent their needs. Don't you think it is a little presumptuous that YOU think you know better what is "fair" for them than they do???

#14 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2020-02-13 01:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

When the Electoral College was created, it was assumed that "Wise Elders" (AKA Rich White Men) would choose the one to lead the country, and that a man like Trump could never win the EC. Popular vote for POTUS came later. There is no (small "d") democratic reason why the EC should exist today. There is no legitimate reason a voter in Wyoming should have 4 times the influence on the outcome of the election than one in California.

BTW to Andrea: This is part of what I was talking about re: White Nationalism VS Democracy. Those small, underpopulated states are almost all white (not counting natives), while the big coastal cities (where all the population growth is) are very racially, ethnically, and religiously diverse. The EC (in effect, even if not by intention) gives white people more political power (per individual) than non-whites.

#15 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2020-02-13 01:10 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#12 Whatsleft,

First off I appreciate the thoughtful response.

The problem with your argument is the EC exists no matter what Colorado does.

Let's play a hypothetical: Trump loses in Colorado by 12 points but narrowly wins the popular vote. In that scenario he gets all of Colorado's electors in spite of losing big time in Colorado. If that were to happen and i lived in Colorado I'd be beyond pissed.

#16 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-13 01:13 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

The only way this works is if every state follows suit.

#17 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-13 01:15 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Not really, just enough to add up to 270.

#18 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2020-02-13 01:18 PM | Reply

The EC has been how presidential elections have been decided since this country was founded.

"That's how it's always been done" is the answer of the intellectually lazy.

There is absolutely no reason to continue doing things in a flawed way

Do you honestly think this is fair to the voters of Virginia?

#6 | Posted by JeffJ

No.

But the EC isn't fair to voters in every state.

If this is what the voters voted for then welcome to the democracy part of our democratic republic.

#19 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-13 01:24 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Rationalization

Welcome to Danni-land.

#7 | Posted by JeffJ

It's a prediction.

Not in any way a rationalization stumpfes deutsch.

#20 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-13 01:26 PM | Reply

"Let's play a hypothetical: Trump loses in Colorado by 12 points but narrowly wins the popular vote. In that scenario he gets all of Colorado's electors in spite of losing big time in Colorado. If that were to happen and i lived in Colorado I'd be beyond pissed."

And the 3,000,000 Americans who had their votes be ignored because a few thousand people in three states voted the other way. The margins that Trump won in swing states were so small that they could easily be attributed to voter suppression. But we're not supposed to feel angry about that?

#21 | Posted by danni at 2020-02-13 01:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

#20. It's a prediction that will likely be gospel regardless of evidence.

#22 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-13 01:27 PM | Reply

"My guess is serious fraud occurred if Trump "wins" the popular vote.

#5 | POSTED BY JPW AT 2020-02-13 10:16 AM | FLAG: Rationalization
Welcome to Danni-land."

Yes, welcome to a place where rational thought is welcome. If Trump wins the popular vote there is serious fraud going on, there was serious fraud going on in 2016.

#23 | Posted by danni at 2020-02-13 01:29 PM | Reply

#19

It's called living in reality. Eliminating the EC is a wet dream. Ain't gonna happen. And unless other states follow suit en masse , all this does is invalidate the votes of the state of Virginia.

#24 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-13 01:31 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

According to Danni winning 49 states is proof that Reagan stole the election.

#25 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-13 01:33 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

"It's called living in reality"

It's called settling for an undemocratic reality.
Of course, you prefer the undemocratic system. If this worked against you, you'd say reality was flawed and ought to be changed.

#26 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-02-13 01:33 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

If this is what the voters voted for then welcome to the democracy part of our democratic republic.

Wow, look at all the anti EC people coming out today! Trying again and again to change our type of government!

We arent a democratic republic, we are a Constitutional Republic.

I dont understand why you liberals cant understand we are a nation of SEPARATE and EQUAL states, not one who country? We are a collection of states with their own separate cultures and thoughts. We are "one" mostly only when presenting to the world or on the world stage.

You will never get the EC out of our system of government.

#27 | Posted by boaz at 2020-02-13 01:37 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

If that were to happen and i lived in Colorado I'd be beyond pissed.

#16 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

I'd be very disappointed that the people of America chose Trump. But even though he would be chosen by an unbelievably stupid majority, I'd live with it.

And if that happened.. welcome to the idiocracy!

#28 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2020-02-13 01:37 PM | Reply

If Trump wins reelection with less than a majority of votes, democracy in America is dead.

#29 | Posted by moder8 at 2020-02-13 01:39 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

It's called settling for an undemocratic reality.

Good. Your version of "democracy" can go pound sand.

#30 | Posted by boaz at 2020-02-13 01:39 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

Does that mean it is fair? Nice "Appeal to Tradition".

Appeal to traditions that seem to work for 200yrs, the changes coming are a Chesterton's fence.

They are Lindy.

"That's how it's always been done" is the answer of the intellectually lazy.

The laziness is claiming pure Democracy is intellectual.

Do you understand why the founders were against a pure democracy? Do you consider them intellectually lazy?

It's called living in reality. Eliminating the EC is a wet dream. Ain't gonna happen.

I have stated this before, you don't need many large states to claim their EC votes goto to the popular vote candidate, to have a logically popular vote election.

The REAL test will be if their state votes one way, and the popular vote goes the other.

#31 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2020-02-13 01:40 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Do you understand why the founders were against a pure democracy?"

Do you understand the Senate is far less of a representative democratic institution than it was in 1789?
Do you understand the House is too, since it used to be comprised of one Representative per 30,000 inhabitants, and now it varies from one representative per ~300,000 in Wyoming to one in ~750,000 in California?

#32 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-02-13 01:48 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It's called settling for an undemocratic reality.
Good. Your version of "democracy" can go pound sand.
#30 | POSTED BY BOAZ

Seriously?
It's the way your state Governor is elected.
It's the way your Representative in the House and your Senators are elected.
You're opposed to the way those elections are conducted, as a simple polling of plebiscite? I believe you, fascist scum!

#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-02-13 01:51 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

It's the way your state Governor is elected.

Yep, it's local.

It's the way your Representative in the House and your Senators are elected.

Yep.

You're opposed to the way those elections are conducted

Nope.

The electoral collage is a good check on an overbearing majority.

#34 | Posted by boaz at 2020-02-13 01:53 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

20. It's a prediction that will likely be gospel regardless of evidence.

#22 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Welcome to the last three years of listening to Trumpers.

#35 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-13 01:54 PM | Reply

I've never understood this movement. I think a better solution would be to divvy up the electoral votes proportionately among votegetters to better represent the will of any particular state.

If 2016 were decided this way, neither candidate would have gotten to 270.

#36 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-13 02:03 PM | Reply

"The electoral collage "

#34 | Posted by boaz at 2020-02-13 01:53 PM | Reply

a well educated man

#37 | Posted by Scotty at 2020-02-13 02:25 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

The electoral collage is a good check on an overbearing majority.

Meaningless drivel. We're currently run by an overbearing minority. That's not better.

#38 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-13 03:04 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#27 That's been a dead letter since 1865. The civil war ended all REAL state soveriegnity a long time ago. We have 50 states in name only.The fed.has been supreme since appomatox. The fat lady sang on that long ago. Catch up with the times,dude.

#39 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-02-13 03:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The only way this works is if every state follows suit.

#17 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Actually... no. It only works if states with a majority of electors agree to do it. Which is why the laws state that it only goes into effect if enough other states pass it as well.

#40 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2020-02-13 03:11 PM | Reply

20. It's a prediction that will likely be gospel regardless of evidence.

#22 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Welcome to the last three years of listening to anti-Trumpers.

#35 | POSTED BY JPW

FTFY. The whole Russia collusion crap is very much still alive today. It's akin to birtherism.

#41 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-13 03:12 PM | Reply

I think some of you are missing the point.

Personally, I would be OK if our presidents were elected strictly by popular vote. Whilst I understand the merits behind the EC they aren't absolute.

But, it doesn't matter what I, or any of you want. What matters is reality.

Reality is it will take a Constitutional Amendment to nullify the EC.

Since that isn't likely happening, these measures are an attempt to water it down. The problem is, unless most other states follow suit, these measures, if limited only to a handful of states, disenfranchise the voters of their own state.

#42 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-13 03:15 PM | Reply

FTFY. The whole Russia collusion crap is very much still alive today. It's akin to birtherism.

#41 | Posted by JeffJ

Garbage.

Just because you refuse or are unable to read between the lines doesn't mean everybody else is wrong.

#43 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-13 03:15 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Garbage.

Just because you refuse or are unable to read between the lines doesn't mean everybody else is wrong.

#43 | POSTED BY JPW

It's funny that you condescendingly dismiss any suggestion of corruption with Biden/Burisma as purely debunked conspiracy theories, yet you cling to this particular conspiracy theory in spite of:

Here is the Mueller report, by the numbers:

- 675: The number of days from when Mueller was appointed to the day he turned in his report to Barr.

- 34: people indicted as a result of Mueller's investigation, including Russian nationals and several former Trump aides and advisors.

- 19: lawyers who were employed by the special counsel's office, according to a letter Barr sent to Congress on Sunday.

- About 40 FBI agents, intelligence analysts, forensic accountants and other staff that assisted with the investigation.

- More than 2,800 subpoenas issued by the Special Counsel's office, that's an average of at least four per day.

- Nearly 500 search warrants executed.

- More than 230 orders for communication records.

- Nearly 50 authorized orders for the use of pen registers, a tool that lets the government know who someone is communicating with and when, but not what they said.

- 13 evidence requests to foreign governments

- 500 witnesses interviewed

- $25 million in posted costs as of February

Mueller report:Investigation found no evidence Trump conspired with Russia, leaves obstruction question open


www.usatoday.com

All I can do is laugh...

#44 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-13 03:19 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"What a fool cannot learn he laughs at, thinking that by his laughter he shows superiority instead of latent idiocy."
-Marie Corelli

#45 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-13 03:36 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Muller's report found insufficient evidence to prove criminal conspiracy beyond a reasonable doubt. Not "he didn't do anything wrong" or "He's completely exonerated".

#46 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2020-02-13 03:38 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Muller's report found insufficient evidence to prove criminal conspiracy beyond a reasonable doubt. Not "he didn't do anything wrong" or "He's completely exonerated".

#46 | POSTED BY WHODAMAN

He did not use the words, "beyond a reasonable doubt." He said that they found no evidence of Trump, or any American, conspiring with Russia to influence the 2016 election.

You are proving my #41.

#47 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-13 03:45 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

All 50 steats have an election for president..
The states should use the popular vote in thier state and award EC votes based off those elections... everybody's vote would count that way.

And places like Wyoming should not be more influential than California..we need to adjust the amount of EC votes the states receive.

#48 | Posted by 503jc69 at 2020-02-13 03:46 PM | Reply

The electoral collage is a good check on an overbearing majority.
#34 | POSTED BY BOAZ

No it's not.
It simply results in an overbearing minority.

#49 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-02-13 04:33 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

He said that they found no evidence of Trump, or any American, conspiring with Russia to influence the 2016 election.

If it's what you say, i love it.

#50 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-13 04:48 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#50

It's not what I say - it's in the Mueller report.

#51 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-13 05:01 PM | Reply | Funny: 2


It simply results in an overbearing minority.
#49 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

I wouldn't call it overbearing ... as it doesn't control all of congress.

A Republic the majority is limited, in its ability to make changes against the rights of the minority.

In no way can the minority be overbearing, it can only prevent the majority from being overbearing against the minority.

#52 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2020-02-13 05:13 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

#52 look up the word "overbearing," moron.

#53 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-13 05:20 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The Nullifidian

@Nullifidian

Angry Joe the Blogger is an Imbecile

View image on Twitter
4,596
10:46 AM - Feb 13, 2020

#54 | Posted by nullifidian at 2020-02-13 05:30 PM | Reply

"I wouldn't call it overbearing ... as it doesn't control all of congress."

Meanwhile, you've over the moon thinking how it will control all of Congress come November...

#55 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-02-13 05:40 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

www.heritage.org

The EC was to protect the small States. The small States were stupid giving up their Senate representation.

Now all of Congress is just a population grab.

Imagine presidental contenders going to less than 25% of the States to win the election simply based on population.

#36, Joe, I actually could accept that option, but I'd trade and reverse the Senate election amendment and put the Senators back into the State's hands.

#56 | Posted by Petrous at 2020-02-13 06:36 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

It's funny that you condescendingly dismiss any suggestion of corruption with Biden/Burisma as purely debunked conspiracy theories, yet you cling to this particular conspiracy theory in spite of:

The results of the Mueller investigation aren't a "conspiracy theory".

He didn't find enough evidence to legally charge anybody with conspiracy.

But he did find and document many many many instances of cooperation and communication between Russians and the campaign and transition teams.

Just because you need a conclusion fed to you before you acknowledge it doesn't mean the rest of us do.

All I can do is laugh...
#44 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Because you think the dim world you inhabit is normal.

#57 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-13 09:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Imagine presidental contenders going to less than 25% of the States to win the election simply based on population.

Which is why pure popular vote is stupid.

Elector distributions based on proportion of votes per state is far better to actually reflect the electoral and demographic realities today. Also makes visiting the majority of states worth the time and effort and gives full weight to every vote cast.

#58 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-13 09:28 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Imagine presidental contenders going to less than 25% of the States to win the election simply based on population."

Sounds pretty un-democratic!
Meanwhile, this is the un-democratic reality you favor:
How To Win The Presidency With 23 Percent Of The Popular Vote
www.npr.org

#59 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-02-13 09:34 PM | Reply

Next up,
Landowners and taxpayers should be the only ones allowed to vote. We pay for this circus, all you freeloaders should gtfo if you do not like it.

#60 | Posted by mutant at 2020-02-13 10:10 PM | Reply

Except the women folks, of course.

You spare the women?

#61 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-02-13 10:41 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

overbearing majority.

#34 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT

An overbearing minority is somehow better??

#62 | Posted by MrSilenceDogood at 2020-02-14 04:21 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#57 JPW

Keep clinging to that debunked horseschit.

You clearly have an emotional attachment to that stupid narrative.

#63 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 07:19 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Except the women folks, of course.

You spare the women?

#61 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

"Naw...we rape the schit out of them at the number 6 dance that night!"

#64 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 07:24 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Because you think the dim world you inhabit is normal.

#57 | POSTED BY JPW

Too funny coming from the guy who openly proclaims that 95% of people who disagree with him are "schitheaps".

Talk about living in a dim world. No wonder you earned the perpetually drunk meme on this site. If I had that same outlook of my fellow man I'd drink my liver into oblivion as well.

#65 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 07:26 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"According to Danni winning 49 states is proof that Reagan stole the election."

Simplistic nonsense. The truth is Reagan made a deal with the Ayatollah to hold our hostages until after the election which destroyed Carter's presidency. Carter was far ahead in the polls before that happened. And to the liars who try to pretend that didn't happen.....did Iran Contra happen???? Yes it did, it was documented and people went to prison because of it. Republicans want power and there is very little that is off limits to them in their quest for it. There are, literally, billions of dollars at stake, to their donors cheating is part of the game.

#66 | Posted by danni at 2020-02-14 07:31 AM | Reply

Imagine presidental contenders going to less than 25% of the States to win the election simply based on population

Yeah.

Imagine people choosing their president rather than land and arbitrary invisible lines.

Scary!

#67 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 07:45 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

"Imagine people choosing their president rather than land and arbitrary invisible lines."

Probably one of the missed opportunities of our founding was a failure to somehow redraw our map, and rethink its value, rather than adopting the borders established by England.

#68 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2020-02-14 08:09 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"There are, literally, billions of dollars at stake, to their donors cheating is part of the game."

In a capitalist system, when the penalty for cheating is less, often far less, than the benefit to be gained for doing so one is almost obligated to cheat. That's on all of us.

#69 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2020-02-14 08:11 AM | Reply

Too funny coming from the guy who openly proclaims that 95% of people who disagree with him are "schitheaps".

It's hilarious how you guys always think it boils down to simple disagreements and not the content, or lack there of, of your character.

But sure, if you need to lie to yourself about that go for it.

If I had that same outlook of my fellow man I'd drink my liver into oblivion as well.

I don't care if somebody disagrees with me. It's a given that people will.

I do care when they support a lying, corrupt life long conman who's now openly admitting to everything he was accused of because half this country is to devoid of even the morals and values they claim to have to hold him accountable.

I think those people are POSes when they not only support that, but attempt to blame others by concocting the most ridiculous logical pretzels while reveling in the fact that their allowing corruption to occur and grow makes other people upset and angry.

Do you think that that is the mark of a good person? Allow and support bad things to happen (against their usual preaching no less) then claim it's all worth it because it pisses people off? Would you willingly associate with somebody who lacks character and is petty, vindictive and intentionally rude and schitty to people?

No? Then why excuse it in people?

#70 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-14 08:35 AM | Reply

"..half this country is to devoid of even the morals and values they claim to have to hold him accountable."

that's an awful lot of contempt for a lot of people you've never met nor ever will.

"Allow and support bad things to happen"

how many times does it have to be explained to you that is what Trump voters believe? You haven't convinced a single trump voter that trump has done horrible and terrible things to you nor them.

They do not believe they have screwed you over nor themselves.

that brings me back to my first point above.......that's an awful lot of contempt for a lot of people you don't even know.

and exactly ZERO of them give a ---- about your judgement of them regarding what POS they are devoid of any morals.

#71 | Posted by eberly at 2020-02-14 08:44 AM | Reply

I don't care if somebody disagrees with me.

Evidence not in support of your claim.

Exhibit A:

I do care when they support a lying, corrupt life long conman who's now openly admitting to everything he was accused of because half this country is to devoid of even the morals and values they claim to have to hold him accountable.

Do you really think it's that binary?

Do you think that that is the mark of a good person? Allow and support bad things to happen (against their usual preaching no less) then claim it's all worth it because it pisses people off?

I get the disdain toward "owning the libs" in spite of anything else. Be honest though - to an extent it's wholly deserved. Have you seen (well of course you have as you are a purveyor of it) how horribly 60 million people are portrayed? The broad-brushing, the condescension and open contempt for people that those who feel are their 'betters' have never even met? This preceded Trump, BTW. It was rampant during the Obama years and the "own the libs" thing is a natural backlash.

Would you willingly associate with somebody who lacks character and is petty, vindictive and intentionally rude and schitty to people?

Dude. This is hard for me to say because I like you - with the exception of lacking character (you don't lack character) you check off every other box that you just listed.

#72 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 08:50 AM | Reply

#71 Per usual, Ebs says it better than me.

#73 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 08:51 AM | Reply

The electoral collage is a good check on an overbearing majority.

#34 | Posted by boaz at 2020-02-13 01:53 PM | Reply | Flag

And back when Prop 8 was on the ballot in CA, the righties cheered for the majority to strip rights away from the LGBTQ community.

#74 | Posted by Nixon at 2020-02-14 08:54 AM | Reply

Jeff, I did screw up one line....it should say "how many times does it have to be explained to you that is NOT what Trump voters believe".

#75 | Posted by eberly at 2020-02-14 09:10 AM | Reply

"with the exception of lacking character (you don't lack character) you check off every other box that you just listed."

very well said.

and it's fine if JPW wants to act that way. I'm not judging him except for his blatant hypocrisy and/or total lack of self-awareness.

#76 | Posted by eberly at 2020-02-14 09:12 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I'm not judging him except for his blatant hypocrisy and/or total lack of self-awareness.

#76 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Exactly.

#77 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 09:13 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

that's an awful lot of contempt for a lot of people you've never met nor ever will.

So?

Is this supposed to mean something?

You haven't convinced a single trump voter that trump has done horrible and terrible things to you nor them.

They do not believe they have screwed you over nor themselves.

Their ignorance and lack of an ability to think hard enough to see it is precisely why I have contempt.

Because they are screwing themselves and everybody else. So I'll continue to say f--- them.

and exactly ZERO of them give a ---- about your judgement of them regarding what POS they are devoid of any morals.

#71 | Posted by eberly

See, that's what separates me from people like you and JeffJ. I don't care if they care what I think. I say it because it's true regardless of who cares.

Same goes with forming opinions and drawing conclusions. I don't need to be fed the line to say. I read and analyze myself and draw my own conclusions.

Try it some time. It's invigorating.

#78 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-14 10:43 AM | Reply

I'm not judging him except for his blatant hypocrisy and/or total lack of self-awareness.

#76 | Posted by eberly

What hypocrisy or lack of awareness?

I own everything I say.

Usually when the hypocrisy whine comes out it's because you're coasting on fumes.

#79 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-14 10:44 AM | Reply

Do you really think it's that binary?

It is that binary.

The people who can't stop blathering on about morals, values, principles, patriotism blah blah blah are showing themselves to be devoid of all of it.

Trump is literally the antithesis of everything the Republican party has stood for for my life time and they've discarded it in a second to hitch their wagon to a lying conman who is...wait for it...lying and conning the entire country for his own enrichment.

Be honest though - to an extent it's wholly deserved. Have you seen (well of course you have as you are a purveyor of it) how horribly 60 million people are portrayed?

Yawn.

If you act is a manner that's deserving of disrespect don't whine when you get disrespected.

If you act stupidly, don't whine when people say you're stupid.

If you act like an ------, don't be surprised when you get called an ------.

I'm sick and tired of people getting treated in a manner they've earned but thinking they're entitled to be treated decently. It doesn't work that way and it says a lot about you that you think otherwise.

Dude. This is hard for me to say because I like you - with the exception of lacking character (you don't lack character) you check off every other box that you just listed.

#72 | Posted by JeffJ

The "I know you are but what am I" defense doesn't hold water.

Because you're essentially demanding I treat people with respect and civility despite their lack of both and expect me to maintain a standard not of my own making.

Too bad.

Don't want to be treated like crap? Don't lie. Don't support a cheater. Don't deflect, deny and rationalize for poor behavior that isn't acceptable in your personal life let alone in somebody's public life.

Demand others live up to the standard you expect of me and you'd see that my behavior would rapidly change to match.

#80 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-14 10:51 AM | Reply

He did not use the words, "beyond a reasonable doubt." He said that they found no evidence of Trump, or any American, conspiring with Russia to influence the 2016 election.

You are proving my #41.

#47 | POSTED BY JEFFJ
You are just proving you are still in denial.

He say he did not establish that the Trump campaign "conspired". And he did not find "enough" evidence. Or whether the "evidence was sufficient to charge."

There was no determination on "collusion" " and there may have been at least some evidence pointing to a possible conspiracy.

These are his exact words.

"The investigation did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired with the Russian government in its election interference activities," Mueller said. But: "We did not address collusion,' which is not a legal term. Rather, we focused on whether the evidence was sufficient to charge any member of the campaign with taking part in a criminal conspiracy. It was not."

Just another day of denial for the deplorables.

#81 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-02-14 10:53 AM | Reply

Keep clinging to that debunked horseschit.

You clearly have an emotional attachment to that stupid narrative.

#63 | Posted by JeffJ

Dude.

The report says it in black and white.

#82 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-14 10:59 AM | Reply

The report says it in black and white.

#82 | POSTED BY JPW

The report explicitly states that it found no evidence of Team Trump, or any other American, criminally conspiring with Russia to affect the 2016 election.

Sorry that the primary conclusion from Part 1 of the report shatters your coveted narrative.

#83 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 11:05 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"The report explicitly states that it found no evidence of Team Trump, or any other American, criminally conspiring with Russia to affect the 2016 election."

No, it does not.

It clearly says there was not enough evidence. Not that there was "No Evidence".

Learn to read.

Sorry If the truth shatters your own "coveted narrative".

#84 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-02-14 11:08 AM | Reply

Because you're essentially demanding I treat people with respect and civility despite their lack of both and expect me to maintain a standard not of my own making.

Your standard is of your own making, that is the difference between someone that has character and someone that is a character.

How you behave shouldn't have anything to do with how people treat you. Otherwise, you have no center, no moral code, just is a leaf blowing in the wind.

I am pretty sure I said this before to you, stoicism would be something to look into.

Don't want to be treated like crap? Don't lie. Don't support a cheater. Don't deflect, deny and rationalize for poor behavior that isn't acceptable in your personal life let alone in somebody's public life.

I proffer you were treating people like crap before the "lying" or "cheating".

I recall the day after the election you kinda spun into the PoS this Pos that out of control individual we see today. Only now, you are hitiing out at people that like you and treat you with some semblance of respect.

#85 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2020-02-14 11:09 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

I say it because it's true regardless of who cares.

That's your ------- opinion. Nothing more. For a scientist I would expect you to be able to differentiate between opinion and fact. Apparently I expect too much out of you.

Same goes with forming opinions and drawing conclusions. I don't need to be fed the line to say. I read and analyze myself and draw my own conclusions.

Try it some time. It's invigorating.

#78 | POSTED BY JPW A

That's pure BS. You make ZERO effort to try and understand where people with whom you disagree are coming from. You then condescendingly broad-brush because you apparently seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid-evil-schitheap.

What hypocrisy or lack of awareness?

You - doing the exact same things you are castigating.

The "I know you are but what am I" defense doesn't hold water.

Because you're essentially demanding I treat people with respect and civility despite their lack of both and expect me to maintain a standard not of my own making.

Too bad.

Don't want to be treated like crap? Don't lie. Don't support a cheater. Don't deflect, deny and rationalize for poor behavior that isn't acceptable in your personal life let alone in somebody's public life.

Demand others live up to the standard you expect of me and you'd see that my behavior would rapidly change to match.

#80 | POSTED BY JPW

Yeah! How dare anybody disagree with your views on, well, everything. I cannot get over how full of yourself you are. It's truly astounding. Your faux moral superiority is beyond risible.

#86 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 11:12 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#81 | POSTED BY DONNERBOY

By quoting the Mueller report directly you just undercut your own argument. Too funny.

#87 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 11:12 AM | Reply

#84 | POSTED BY DONNERBOY

The report found no evidence. Period, full stop.

I've repeatedly posted the resources poured into generating the report. Given all that was poured into trying to find evidence of "collusion" and it failed to do so - it's probably because there was nothing there.

You are like a birther.

#88 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 11:14 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

This will make it much harder to cheat, say win just enough states by a couple thousand votes to win the EC in spite of millions more of our citizens voting for the other candidate. This will force candidates to take large red and blue states seriously and go to places where there are lots of votes, as opposed to sucking up a few, lower population swing states.

#89 | Posted by _Gunslinger_ at 2020-02-14 11:22 AM | Reply

You are like a birther.

#88 | Posted by JeffJ at

Like Donald Trump, whom you defend?

#90 | Posted by Zed at 2020-02-14 11:32 AM | Reply

So this has to get through their senate and then the governor, correct?

I think I understand why they are doing it.....to offset the disparity in results between the electoral college and the popular vote.

But there are slippery slopes with this choice. Not that I disagree with what they are doing. If it's their right to do this....I support it.

#91 | Posted by eberly at 2020-02-14 11:33 AM | Reply

Here's a great word: Humility

#92 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 11:36 AM | Reply

"The report found no evidence. Period, full stop."

The report said mueller could not find enough evidence to indict.

Comma. No stopping.

Because Trump refused to allow any evidence be considered.

No full stop. Because the investigations of trump crime will never be over.

Impeached Trump will be in the fighting for his freedom in the courts for decades.

Meanwhile, his arch enemy, Obama, will probably be wind surfing in New Zealand.

Enjoy your denial heffy as long as you can.

#93 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-02-14 11:39 AM | Reply

Humility

Doesn't exist in the age of Trump.

You Republicans see it as a weakness and wiped your collective arsses with it.

#94 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-02-14 11:40 AM | Reply

#93 Continue with your paranoid delusions, BirtherBoy.

#95 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 11:41 AM | Reply

-Like Donald Trump, whom you defend?

I'm going to vote for any democrat on the ballot in November. Just like you.

Does that mean either of us is going to defend everything about that person, if they end up POTUS?

Absolutely not. It's not lost on anyone Trump was a birther and most folks who currently support Trump do not support that about him...and a list several other of his attributes.

Don't act like if you or I support a democrat once elected that we have entered into some contract to support everything about that democrat.

I recognize we have folks here to believe they've done that...but they're insane. all of them.

#96 | Posted by eberly at 2020-02-14 11:43 AM | Reply

If Trump wins reelection with less than a majority of votes, democracy in America is dead. - #29 | POSTED BY MODER8 AT 2020-02-13 01:39 PM
Let's assume for the sake of argument that Trump hadn't won the ~70k votes needed to flip the 3 blue states red in 2016. That would mean that Sec. Clinton would be president with less than a majority of votes. Would that also result in the death of America?

#97 | Posted by Avigdore at 2020-02-14 11:55 AM | Reply

Clinton would be president with less than a majority of votes.

Actually. Hillary won the popular vote.

But. I wouldn't expect you, ABIGBORE, to tell the truth about anything.

You are an endless source of lies and misinformation.

#98 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-02-14 12:09 PM | Reply

The report explicitly states that it found no evidence of Team Trump, or any other American, criminally conspiring with Russia to affect the 2016 election.

It actually repeatedly says they did not "establish" conspiracy with Russian efforts to influence the election. I don't have time to review Mueller's testimony but that seems an intentional weasel word that could easily be interpreted as a high evidentiary standard.

#99 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 12:11 PM | Reply

"WASHINGTON " The special counsel investigating Russian interference in the 2016 election issued an indictment of 12 Russian intelligence officers on Friday in the hacking of the Democratic National Committee and the Clinton presidential campaign. The indictment came only three days before President Trump was planning to meet with President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia in Helsinki, Finland.

The 29-page indictment is the most detailed accusation by the American government to date of the Russian government's interference in the 2016 election, and it includes a litany of brazen Russian subterfuge operations meant to foment chaos in the months before Election Day."

www.nytimes.com

#100 | Posted by danni at 2020-02-14 12:18 PM | Reply

#86 LOL so despite my saying it has nothing to do with disagreement you chastise me based on...disagreement.

There's no arguing with somebody who's told something explicitly but barrels on with their straw man anyway.

#101 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-14 12:19 PM | Reply

I proffer you were treating people like crap before the "lying" or "cheating".

Then you'd be lying. Which is par for your course.

Save the rest. You're precisely the kind of characterless hack I'm referring to.

#102 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-14 12:20 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The report explicitly states that it found no evidence of Team Trump, or any other American, criminally conspiring with Russia to affect the 2016 election.

Sorry that the primary conclusion from Part 1 of the report shatters your coveted narrative.

#83 | Posted by JeffJ

Page 9 of the report:

Second, while the investigation identified numerous links between individuals with ties to the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump Campaign, the evidence was not sufficient to support criminal charges. Among other things, the evidence was not sufficient tocharge any Campaign official as an unregisteredagent of the Russian government or other Russian principal. And our evidence about the June 9, 2016 meeting andWikiLeaks's releases of hackedmaterials was not sufficient tocharge a criminal campaign-finance violation. Further,the evidence was not sufficient to charge that any member of the Trump Campaign conspired with representatives of the Russian government to interfere in the 2016 election.

Makes no such concrete conclusion as "no evidence".

Try again, Jeff.

#103 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-14 12:31 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#101

You are either incapable or completely unwilling to even try to understand the point that I (and Eberly) am making.

#104 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 01:13 PM | Reply

It's not clear to me what the point is.

Other than I'm mean and should've because because.

#105 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-14 02:38 PM | Reply

The notion that Dems need to empathize with Trumpers is laughable.

If you:

(1) allowed your party to be compromised by an unqualified, vile, overtly racist, overtly sexist, cruel, nepotistic admitted sexual predator who embarrasses the nation on a daily basis, governs entirely in bad faith, and is an apparently unwitting Russian stooge; and

(2) either continue to delight in that fact or to defend the person described above; then

You are not deserving of empathy. You are deserving of scorn.

#106 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 02:49 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It's not clear to me what the point is.

That's abundantly clear and it applies to Joe as well.

#107 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 02:53 PM | Reply

No, I understand the "point" entirely.

I just don't agree with it.

It's possible to understand what someone says, deliberate it, and conclude "i disagree."

Your "point" isn't going over anyone's head. Get over yourself.

#108 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 02:57 PM | Reply

I'll try one last time - the point is you (and Joe) are broad-brushing 60 million people from a faux self-perceived morally-superior standpoint.

You take a very small and vile segment of Trump's base and project it onto 10's of millions of people as if StormFront is a microcosm of Trump supporters.

You pretend to know what is in the minds and hearts of tens of millions of people you've never met and probably wouldn't even condescend to actually listen to.

I don't know how else to say it in a manner in which you might understand.

#109 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 02:58 PM | Reply

Except i'm not conflating Trumpers in general with Stormfront. My argument in #106 applies to anyone who delights in or defends the presidency of Donald Trump. It appears you're the one incapable of comprehension.

#110 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 03:02 PM | Reply

It's possible to understand what someone says, deliberate it, and conclude "i disagree."

Your "point" isn't going over anyone's head. Get over yourself.

#108 | POSTED BY JOE

But that is NOT what you and JPW are doing.

You guys are unequivocal that supporting Trump in any way makes that person a horrible human being. Heck, even simply being a cccconservative makes you a horrible human being, for 95% of those (JPW's frequently thrown-out number) who identify as such.

If that is an inaccurate characterization of where either of you actually stand - clarification is desperately needed because I guarantee I am far from alone on this.

#111 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 03:03 PM | Reply

My argument in #106 applies to anyone who delights in or defends the presidency of Donald Trump.

I know. You regard 60 million American voters as pieces of schit. That's absurd and you know it.

What about people who mostly oppose Trump but appreciate his non-interventionist foreign policy?

#112 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 03:04 PM | Reply

what do you expect, jeff?

your party is crippled and cannot hold trump in check. Trump runs the govt like he ran his campaign...like a demagogue and a racist.

and yet ALL the so called moderates like yourself carry his water and defend him. he polls really well with his base.

so yeah, its not a stretch to say theres something wrong with 60 million people.

#113 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2020-02-14 03:05 PM | Reply

That's absurd and you know it.

I explain in 106 why, as to the people to whom my argument applies, it is patently not absurd.

You sound mad because it appears to apply to you.

Not my problem.

#114 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 03:07 PM | Reply

What about people who mostly oppose Trump but appreciate his non-interventionist foreign policy?

I've yet to meet one. If you're attempting to describe yourself, then explain why you defend or deflect on Trump's behalf in threads that have nothing to do with his foreign policy.

You support Trump on just about every matter i can think of. If you don't, then stop doing it.

#115 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 03:08 PM | Reply

Can't hold him in check?

How many times has he been smacked down by SCOTUS?

That is really funny given the prior administration playing "catch me if you can" over and over again.

Trump is a vile person. He's Bill Clinton on steroids without the decorum.

What is amazing to me is you all decry his appeal to white identity politics without realizing that the primary reason it's effective is due to the rabid identity politics of the left and Democratic Party.

#116 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 03:08 PM | Reply

#114 | POSTED BY JOE

60+ million people are heaps of dung because they don't conform to your political views?

You said it to me up-thread - get over yourself.

#117 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 03:09 PM | Reply

" What is amazing to me is you all decry his appeal to white identity politics without realizing that the primary reason it's effective is due to the rabid identity politics of the left and Democratic Party."

poor republicans aren't racist! those mean democrats MADE them use the southern strategy!

good argument, jeff. have a nice day.

#118 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2020-02-14 03:10 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#117 Your inability to understand #106 is baffling.

Stop rounding it up to persecution.

I said people who defend or delight in the Trump presidency do not deserve empathy, they deserve scorn.

And i stand by that. Now piss off, Trumper.

#119 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 03:12 PM | Reply

You guys are unequivocal that supporting Trump in any way makes that person a horrible human being.

Yes Jeff, supporting Trump makes you an objectively horrible human being.

Whether you understand this, or your partisan blinders prevent you from acknowledging it. It doesn't matter.

Trump is the worst thing to happen to this country.

#120 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-02-14 03:12 PM | Reply

poor republicans aren't racist! those mean democrats MADE them use the southern strategy!

good argument, jeff. have a nice day.

#118 | POSTED BY ALEXANDRITE

Do you want to re-hash the Obama years? Any and all opposition to any policy he pushed was dubbed "racist". I was actually disappointed that Hillary lost. After 8 years of being called a racist for opposing things like our government spying on reporters I was looking forward to at least 4 years of being called a sexist or misogynist for opposing any policy Hillary would have pushed.

#121 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 03:15 PM | Reply

Trump is the worst thing to happen to this country.

#120 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

I kind of thought slavery fit that category.

#122 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 03:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I said people who defend or delight in the Trump presidency do not deserve empathy, they deserve scorn.

I know what you said. It's ridiculous, but then we are talking about you....

#123 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 03:17 PM | Reply

It's ridiculous to think that people who -

who allowed their party to be compromised by an unqualified, vile, overtly racist, overtly sexist, cruel, nepotistic admitted sexual predator who embarrasses the nation on a daily basis, governs entirely in bad faith, and is an apparently unwitting Russian stooge; and either continue to delight in that fact or to defend the person described above;

- are deserving of scorn not empathy?

What's ridiculous is to not think that. I'm sorry you're so far gone. It's sad to see.

#124 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 03:19 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

-I kind of thought slavery fit that category.

or 9-11

or the vietnam war

or pearl harbor

or the civil war

#125 | Posted by eberly at 2020-02-14 03:19 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Joe,

Your personal opinions are not fact.

#126 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 03:24 PM | Reply

Trump is the worst thing to happen to this country.
#120 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

I kind of thought slavery fit that category.
#122 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Didn't you hear?

"That's what America is about. A land of dreams and opportunity. There were other immigrants who came here in the bottom of slave ships, worked even longer, even harder for less," said Carson, speaking extemporaneously as he paced the room with a microphone. "But they, too, had a dream that one day their sons, daughters, grandsons, granddaughters, great-grandsons, great-granddaughters might pursue prosperity and happiness in this land."

Also

"I thank God for slavery ... if it wasn't for slavery, I might be somewhere in Africa, worshiping a tree."
Democratic Florida State Rep. Kimberly Daniels

Of course you want to deny people opportunities.

#127 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-02-14 03:25 PM | Reply

Your personal opinions are not fact.

Nothing about the way I've described the Trump presidency is a personal opinion.

#128 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 03:27 PM | Reply

9-11

Gifted us with the War on Terror, the Patriot Act and Homeland Security.

I know I feel safer.

or the vietnam war

Gave us great music, movies and the hippy movement.

I think we all can agree it was a net positive.

or pearl harbor

Without it we would never have entered WW2. Europe would be completely German and Israel wouldn't exist.

or the civil war
#125 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Kept the Union together and ended slavery.

Man, you sure have a negative outlook on life...

#129 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-02-14 03:29 PM | Reply

#129 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

Excellent responses

#130 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 03:35 PM | Reply

Nothing about the way I've described the Trump presidency is a personal opinion.

#128 | POSTED BY JOE

Um, yeah it is.

He's a vile person but he hasn't been a terrible president. I think W was worse.

#131 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 03:36 PM | Reply

Excellent responses
#130 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Thanks :)

I needed some light humor to balance out the rest of my posts.

#132 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-02-14 03:39 PM | Reply

#132 You excel at light humor and you always seem to mix it in at the perfect time.

#133 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 03:42 PM | Reply

Funny how noone mentioned ethnic cleansing as the worst thing to happen to this country.

If only 1/1024 of Americans got ethnically cleansed, it would be more dead Americans than in all our wars combined.

#134 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-02-14 03:48 PM | Reply

#131 That's not a refutation of anything i said about the Trump presidency.

Can you read?

#135 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 03:50 PM | Reply

#131 That's not a refutation of anything i said about the Trump presidency.

#135 | POSTED BY JOE

You are presenting your personal opinions about Trump and his supporters as unassailable facts.

They're not. Like I said, get over yourself.

#136 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 03:55 PM | Reply

And yet you've failed to present anything i've said about his presidency that could possibly be construed as a personal opinion. When pressed, you made something up.

#137 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 03:58 PM | Reply

Every thing you said, to the extreme in which you said it, was personal opinion.

FFS his approval rating is 1 point shy of 50%. Your opinions are not facts no matter how hard you try to delude yourself otherwise. I know you are younger than me but do you remember the Clinton years? Trump is the Yang to his Yin. They are very similar politicians.

#138 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 04:01 PM | Reply

- He's a vile person but he hasn't been a terrible president. I think W was worse.

That's like saying that Rasputin was a terrible person, but he had good hair.

Or that Nero was terrible fiddler, but you liked his immigration policy.

#139 | Posted by Corky at 2020-02-14 04:01 PM | Reply

-I kind of thought slavery fit that category.

or 9-11

or the vietnam war

or pearl harbor

or the civil war

#125 | Posted by eberly a

I'm quite comfortable with Donald Trump being the sixth worst thing to happen to this country.

#140 | Posted by Zed at 2020-02-14 04:04 PM | Reply

#140 | POSTED BY ZED

I'm not joking - I laughed out loud when I read that. Very well played, Zed.

#141 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 04:11 PM | Reply

Jeffy, one of these days you are going to run out of lipstick for this pig. Just sayin'.

#142 | Posted by Corky at 2020-02-14 04:16 PM | Reply

Every thing you said, to the extreme in which you said it, was personal opinion.

Tell me how any of the following is personal opinion.

Trump is unqualified.
Trump is vile.
Trump is racist.
Trump is sexist.
Trump is cruel.
Trump is nepotistic.
Trump is an admitted sexual predator.
Trump embarrasses the nation on a daily basis.
Trump governs in bad faith.
Trump is an apparently unwitting Russian stooge.

How is any of that even arguable, much less "all of it?"

FFS his approval rating is 1 point shy of 50%.

That's in spite of the above, (and in many cases because of it), not because it's all false. Besides, that's argumentum ad populum, a fallacy.

#143 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 04:38 PM | Reply

The admitted sexual predator, assuming his "locker room talk" was literal and not boastful and nepotistic (as a matter of degree I'd say Trump is a bigger offender than other presidents on this - again, do you remember the Clinton years? Hillary was EXTREMELY involved and not in ways typical of first ladies) are factual. Everything else you cited is opinion. I agree with some of your opinions but I don't delude myself into thinking they are unassailable facts in a mathematical-type sense.

#144 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 04:44 PM | Reply

Joe,

There are no unicorns in politics. ALL politicians, heck, all people, have flaws. Some are obviously more glaring than others but all humans are flawed. Trump is 'in-your-face' level of obnoxious. As a result he puts himself under a massive microscope. The point I'm making is acknowledging his obvious flaws but still supporting him doesn't make a person a bad person. We've gone round and round on this and I don't know how else to frame it. It's frustrating because I believe you are conducting your side of this discussion in good faith.

#145 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 04:49 PM | Reply

The admitted sexual predator, assuming his "locker room talk" was literal and not boastful

So when someone says, on tape, that they grab women by their -------, and is accused by dozens of women of doing same, we can no longer take his own word for it? What the ----, Jeff. Seriously, what the ----.

and nepotistic (as a matter of degree I'd say Trump is a bigger offender than other presidents on this - again, do you remember the Clinton years?

No no no Jeff. I said Trump is nepotistic. He either is, or he isn't. You already admit he is. The facts show he is. There is zero reason to brung up "the Clinton years." There can be other nepotists in the world. That doesn't refute that Trump is a nepotist.

Everything else you cited is opinion.

No, it isn't. Every single one of those words have meaning and Trump meets the definition of each one of them.

#146 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 04:50 PM | Reply

This is the problem with Trumpers. In order to shield their egos from the plain fact that they've enabled a massive piece of human garbage to occupy the White House, they chalk literally everything up to a "matter of opinion" even when the facts all say it's true and Trump himself even admits it!

You're delusional dude. Seriously.

#147 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 04:51 PM | Reply

#142 Corky,

I'll never run out of lipstick. I purchase it by the gross and always restock way before I come close to running out. Do you ever tire of being constantly wrong?

#148 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 04:52 PM | Reply

Joe,

It's been fun but it's Valentine's Day and I have dinner to make. Surely you understand. Hopefully you are dating someone other than Ms Michigan *holds up right hand to mimic the shape of the state*

#149 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 04:53 PM | Reply

I try not to get personal and throw chum into the troll waters, but we all know you can be counted on to go there. Go ---- your wife Jeff. We're all very proud of your unique life accomplishment.

#150 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 05:01 PM | Reply

Joe,

I was joking. I thought you'd find the Ms Michigan reference to be funny. I didn't intend it as a personal slight. Unfortunately for me, there will be no ------- tonight. She's bleeding down there. :-(

#151 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 05:06 PM | Reply

"Every thing you said, to the extreme in which you said it, was personal opinion."

I guess personal opinions don't mean a damn thing, when the opinion is Trump is bad.

"FFS his approval rating is 1 point shy of 50%"

Oh, I see.
Personal opinions are meaningful when they're aggregated.
And even when they still come up to less than 50%, they clearly demonstrate broad approval of Trump.

#152 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-02-14 05:10 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Hey Joe,

(Apologies to everyone for briefly hijacking the thread with this question):

Where are you at on cars?

When you first arrived on this site you were driving a Subaru WRX (I was driving an Acura RSX Type S, you may recall) and were pretty fired up about it and with good reason, it was one hell of a performance value much like my '15 Focus ST is today.

Then you moved to a big city, I think it was Chicago, and soured on personal cars and were all about public transport.

Shortly after that you had a long hiatus and only recently returned.

Just curious as to where you are now at?

#153 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 05:11 PM | Reply

And even when they still come up to less than 50%, they clearly demonstrate broad approval of Trump.

#152 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

That's not what I'm saying at all. Not even remotely close.

#154 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 05:17 PM | Reply

What kind of guy says to other penple that he can't have sex because she is bleeding down there. That's rude.

#155 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2020-02-14 05:18 PM | Reply

#153 As to where that came out of left field....I all of a sudden remembered I hadn't gotten a Valentine's Day card, so I hopped into my car and it triggered a memory of talking cars with you way back in the day on the DR.

#156 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 05:19 PM | Reply

#155 Technically we can have sex in spite of it being that time of the month, but it would be kind of gross for both of us, so it just won't work.

#157 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 05:20 PM | Reply

It's all perfectly explained here:

www.youtube.com

#158 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 05:21 PM | Reply

#153 You have a good memory. And while I'm reluctant to provide chum to the trolls, i'll tell you that i now have a 2017 4Runner that i use exclusively for going up north, towing boats and offroading. For the trolls, I still ride the bike/bus to work every day and walk/bike all my errands. I miss the WRX all the time and i'm jealous of your ST. Unfortunately little fast cars aren't practical for my lifestyle anymore.

#157 I've always been able to get past it but to each his own ;)

#159 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 05:29 PM | Reply

Jeff, Large tub of Strawberries and Cream. You'll never know.

#160 | Posted by Petrous at 2020-02-14 05:35 PM | Reply

Thanks for answering. No shame in walking/biking to work. I think that's great. The 4 Runner is a solid choice based upon how you are using it. If you are in a position to be able to hoof it to and from work most days and your vehicle's primary purpose is to be snow and off road capable and be able to lug your toys around I'm guessing you make the most of your time off. Good for you.

#161 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 05:45 PM | Reply

Oh yeah, no shame intended, i just expect some "YoU cLaIm tO bE aN eNvIrOnMeNtAlIsT yEt YoU dRiVe A tRuCk" comments from a few very bored people, so i thought the caveat on my commute was worth adding.

The 4Runner is really solid, never seen such a well-built car honestly. It's unlike any other toyota; and one of the few still made in Japan (for now). Feels like it will easily go 300k.

#162 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-14 05:58 PM | Reply

I hope you get it to 300k. Our 08 Taurus X is at 230k and while it's been an absolute warrior I am pretty sure it won't get to 300k.

#163 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-14 06:45 PM | Reply

What kind of guy says to other penple that he can't have sex because she is bleeding down there. That's rude.

#155 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR

m.imgur.com

#164 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-14 07:09 PM | Reply

It's akin to birtherism.
#41 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

In what way?

#165 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-14 08:12 PM | Reply

You are like a birther.
#88 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

This is completely false and I am surprised you of all people is the one peddling such tripe.

Don Jr's Trump Tower incident was prime evidence of conspiracy until Mueller decided Jr's ignorance to the law protected him. That's the basic exhibit A proving your narrative as false. Dig deep and find the further evidence proving your argument is based on nothing but spin.

Regardless, evidence of collusion and attempted collusion abounds. Your parsing of perceived semantics notwithstanding of course. Mueller determined there was no evidence of a crime. That hardly exonerates Trump and his ilk. The idea you view the matter as solely significant as it relates to conspiracy is fascinating. The idea you're perfectly fine with Trump's behavior as it relates to connections and communications with Russia, which I infer from your posts here, is similarly interesting. Finally, the fact you directly compare this issue to Obama birtherism is sadly telling.

I expect more from you, Jeff. What gives?

#166 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-14 09:11 PM | Reply

BirtherBoy.
#95 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

You're letting your emotions get the best of you.

Sad.

Again, what gives?

#167 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-14 09:13 PM | Reply

If that is an inaccurate characterization of where either of you actually stand - clarification is desperately needed because I guarantee I am far from alone on this.
#111 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Even more interesting. I didn't gather that sat all from said posters.

What is going on here? You seem to be hyper vigilant in interpreting criticism of ongoing political support, in the face of blatant evidence showing corrupt intent, with a broad brush indignation of millions of people. Are you not aware that such support is mostly offered by those choosing ignorance? I don't believe you only pay attention to Fox News spin all day, but a significant portion of Trump supporters do. I interpret said criticism against Trump supporters as that: choosing ignorance by maintaining an existence with in Republican silo or understanding the nuance fully (i.e., considering numerous sources of information), but choosing to continue support even in the face of intended corruption.

Both are when scrutiny, why are you so committed to establishing such scrutiny with baseless, conspiracy birtherism? You're better than that, I just know it.

#168 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-14 09:28 PM | Reply

When=worth

#169 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-14 09:30 PM | Reply

What is amazing to me is you all decry his appeal to white identity politics without realizing that the primary reason it's effective is due to the rabid identity politics of the left and Democratic Party.
#116 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

This I agree with. Yet, for reasons I'm not sure you'd agree with.

#170 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-14 09:33 PM | Reply

After 8 years of being called a racist for opposing things like our government spying on reporters I was looking forward to at least 4 years of being called a sexist or misogynist for opposing any policy Hillary would have pushed.
#121 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Did that happen here? If so, please have the courage to out who explicitly called you a racist for opposing B. Hussein based policy.

#171 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-14 09:35 PM | Reply

God damn it. I guess I'm late to the party.

I'm not expecting any responses to my posts, but please understand my POV: Birtherism was a baseless conspiracy, which is why Trump was FORCED to admit as much. Russian connections with Trump did not amount to conspiracy charge; that does not exonerate the sitting POTUS. Mueller took painful effort to establish as much. Comparing the two issues as though they are philosophically equivalent is simply lazy and more in line with trolling. Which, at this point, is not surprising considering Jeff's inability to establish Trump's exoneration through argument.

I hate to offer the 'turn the tables' scenario, but it is absolutely apt considering Jeff's equivalency: had B. Hussein done anything remotely close to Trump's or his cronies' behavior, Republicans would be absolutely apoplectic. I imagine Jeff would agree, but I could be wrong. Here's to asking for sincere clarification, but not anticipating any response.

Enjoy the extended weekend, friends! I'll be drinking a few IPAs hoping you all will similarly relax.

#172 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-14 09:44 PM | Reply

Trump is the Yang to his Yin. They are very similar politicians.

#138 | Posted by JeffJ

LOL keep stretching dude.

Just don't throw your back out.

#173 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-14 10:21 PM | Reply

"You're better than that, I just know it."

I used to think that was a possibility too.
How many chances do you give somebody?

#174 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-02-14 11:12 PM | Reply

#173 | POSTED BY JPW

You were a young kid during the Clinton years. I was just coming out of college during that time period. I'm guessing you were 10 when he was inaugurated. I remember the Clinton years very well. He was far more corrupt than you realize.

#175 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-15 09:30 AM | Reply

Beach,

Here's a nice example (Garafolo - a celebrity and not some basement dweller):

"Let's be very honest about what this is about. It's not about bashing Democrats. It's not about taxes"they have no idea what the Boston Tea Party was about, they don't know their history. This is about hating a black man in the White House. This is racism, straight up. That is nothing but a bunch of ---------- rednecks. And there is no way around that."

I gave another example but it's already been deleted, so apparently I'm probably not going to be able to address your posts.

#176 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-15 09:35 AM | Reply

Did that happen here?

All of the time.

"You just oppose him because you can't stand a black man being POTUS." was a common refrain on this site and elsewhere in the media.

#177 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-15 10:05 AM | Reply

Oops. #177 hadn't been deleted, I just hadn't clicked publish yet.

Sorry for the false accusation, Rcade.

#178 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-15 10:06 AM | Reply

"No shame in walking/biking to work."

One of the absolute best things about living in Europe is you can take a train almost anywhere. Across countries or across town. And unlike an airplane, you can get up, stretch your legs, hit the bar...whatever. .5L Pils for 1.5 Euros.

#179 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-02-15 10:15 AM | Reply

He was far more corrupt than you realize.

#175 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

I don't have any faith that your definition of corrupt is

A accurate
B evenly applied

#180 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-15 10:35 AM | Reply

#179 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

I was in Europe for the first two weeks of January.

I didn't realize how mobile it was. Buses cheap and plentiful and comfortable.

Was surprised that unlike the states you're charged for water in restaurants. Either a small bottle of sparkling or even a glass of tap water. The beer or wine was only slightly more money so there was almost no reason not to order it.

#181 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-15 10:39 AM | Reply

#181

I spent a week in Paris in 16. Very impressed with their Metro system but their public restrooms were few and far between, they were kind of gross and some of them required money.

#182 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-15 11:10 AM | Reply

#180

Of course you don't.

#183 | Posted by JeffJ at 2020-02-15 11:11 AM | Reply

#181

Where were you? And why did you come in the middle of winter?

Buses are nice, but I'm a fan of the train for international travel. It would be nice if the US had something similar...but I don't see how you could possibly replicate it on such a large scale.

Yes, water is more expensive than alcohol...and you don't get ice. Ever. Probably the most difficult thing for Americans, especially in the summer, is the lack of air conditioning. It just doesn't exist. And it gets pretty rough when the thermometer hits 35C or higher.

#184 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-02-15 11:43 AM | Reply

"Very impressed with their Metro system but their public restrooms were few and far between, they were kind of gross and some of them required money."

Yeah...let me describe me in Paris. Find a bar, wife gets alcohol, spend the next hour trying to find a bathroom. Find a bar, wife gets alcohol, spend the next hour trying to find a bathroom.

I'm not a fan of Paris. It's REALLY expensive. Too expensive for a city that is so close. It's like going to Dallas and spending $600 a night on a hotel room, which hopefully no one has ever done.

Prague is much prettier, and I can stay at a five star hotel for under 200 euros a night. I don't care how rich I get...I don't think I would ever spend $600 a night on a small room with a bed in it.

#185 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-02-15 11:47 AM | Reply

Where were you? And why did you come in the middle of winter?

Work trip to learn computer analysis skills (Unix and R usage).

I was in the Czech Republic, about three hours south of Prague for all but the last day. The last day I hung out in Prague.

Will definitely be going back ASAP.

Yes, water is more expensive than alcohol...and you don't get ice.

Took some getting used to, as it's standard for me to always have a glass of water plus anything else. But oh well, prices were so cheap I got used to it pretty quickly.

Probably the most difficult thing for Americans, especially in the summer, is the lack of air conditioning.

I didn't realize that until I saw the sign in my hotel saying it was the only fully air conditioned hotel in town.

#186 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-15 11:58 AM | Reply

Did you rent a car? Prague is actually pretty decent when it comes to traffic. I wouldn't want to drive in Paris. I WOULD NOT drive in Rome. Ever. I don't even like taking cabs in Rome. And I've lived in Doha...a city widely regarded as being crazy for traffic.

I hope you had fun. Europe has a lot to offer.

#187 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-02-15 12:24 PM | Reply

The beer or wine was only slightly more money so there was almost no reason not to order it.

I went all over Spain and Portugal in 2018 and was blown away at how cheap (and good) the wine was. 1-2 Euros for a glass at most restaurants. You basically get a bottle for less than you pay for a glass in the states.

#188 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-16 07:31 AM | Reply

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