Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Monday, February 24, 2020

The Ad Council, which was behind the Smokey Bear and "Just Say No" campaigns for the U.S. government, is set to launch a national advertising promotion for postsecondary education and training alternatives to the four-year college degree.

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It feels like there are already fewer and fewer students in higher education.

#1 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2020-02-24 01:11 PM | Reply

Trump University to re-open?

#2 | Posted by oldwhiskeysour at 2020-02-24 01:40 PM | Reply | Funny: 2 | Newsworthy 1

People who don't believe in facts, science, or education.... or paying for coders who know more than just coding.

#3 | Posted by Corky at 2020-02-24 01:46 PM | Reply

"People who don't believe in facts, science, or education.... or paying for coders who know more than just coding."

Sure, but the prohibitive cost of higher education under our current system is going to make this proposal appealing to many.

#4 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2020-02-24 01:53 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

Need a job? No degree?

Become a coder in just four easy steps.

You will not have to endure all those pesky work hour rules, benefit applications or retirement plan rules as you will be a regulayshun free contract worker.

Act now before to get established so we can bring in some lower paid contract workers from east asia in a year.

#5 | Posted by Nixon at 2020-02-24 01:54 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It's led by Ivanka Trump, the president's daughter and a senior adviser to the president,

Hunter Biden got his job because of nepotism.

----------- barbie earned hers.

#6 | Posted by Nixon at 2020-02-24 01:57 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

Good idea. There's many people who would be better served by trade schools and apprenticeships.

High-Paying Trade Jobs Sit Empty, While High School Grads Line Up For University
www.npr.org

#7 | Posted by nullifidian at 2020-02-24 02:04 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#7

Shhhh, that crushes The Narrative.

#8 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2020-02-24 03:17 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

High-Paying Trade Jobs Sit Empty While Qualified Immigrants Rot in Cages

ft, nc

#9 | Posted by Corky at 2020-02-24 03:26 PM | Reply

You too can make bank from Chinese slave labor. Let Ivanka show you how.

#10 | Posted by reinheitsgebot at 2020-02-24 03:45 PM | Reply

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I bet this is one of those things where they teach you to do the job, but tell you that you won't get more than a certain salary because you don't have a degree.

I hope I'm wrong about that, but past experience is telling me I'm not.

#11 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2020-02-24 03:51 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

The last time Trump got involved in higher education he had to pay $25,000,000.00 to settle class action lawsuits for false claims and racketeering. I'll pass.

#12 | Posted by JOE at 2020-02-24 04:10 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Drop out of school and take up hooking?

It worked for Trumps third wife.

#13 | Posted by Tor at 2020-02-24 07:15 PM | Reply

So long as education is defined as job training, America will have a population of ignorant, incurious drones, content with a crap job and a crap government.

That's why the goopers are happy.

If people were trained to think, as opposed to regurgitate, the goopers would be extinct within a few election cycles.

#14 | Posted by contrecoup at 2020-02-24 07:29 PM | Reply

Must be cheaper to bring in degreed people on visas. What deal is he making in India?

#15 | Posted by TenMile at 2020-02-24 07:40 PM | Reply

Of course, perfectly in line withe the motto of the Know-Nothing Party: Thank God I ain't got no Education.

I call these kind of idiots the flatheads because they remind me of the famous Flathead Indians who strapped a board on their babies' foreheads to achieve the desired slope and flatness, and leaving them unable to imagine anything other than flathead thoughts, just like a republican.

#16 | Posted by grumpy_too at 2020-02-24 07:41 PM | Reply

I work for a County Office of Education in California. We work VERY closely with apprenticeship programs and trade schools with the hope that the students unable or uninterested in academia will have an alternative to two-year or four-year college.

So thank you to Trump for promoting these avenues. But please do not anticipate a massive shift away from businesses requiring post-secondary academic education for their higher paying jobs. For those implementing the trade and are happy with going no higher, post-secondary academic degree is not necessary. For those implementing the trade who are interested in running the business, post-secondary academic degree is most definitely necessary, as it should be.

Universities deserve criticism for many reasons; properly preparing students for the world of work is not one of them, IMO.

#17 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-24 07:42 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

When did old school job training become such a bad thing to criticize?

#18 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2020-02-24 07:51 PM | Reply

Rsty, what should students who make it through the available programs expect to make starting out? After they reach top wage?

#19 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2020-02-24 07:59 PM | Reply

#19

How much do paid Bloombergers make these days?

#20 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2020-02-24 08:03 PM | Reply

After they reach top wage?

Our trades make about $38/hour + bennies.

#21 | Posted by REDIAL at 2020-02-24 08:04 PM | Reply

Another thing to consider: it relates to running universities as votec schools.

I keep hearing about attempts to teach laid off workers new job skills, and one that keeps being mentioned is software coding - writing the code that determines the programs.

Bear in mind that these folks will be directly competeing against 3rd world labor, which studies suggest is paid ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE less than we are.

The S/W companies will be jizzing in their depends.

#22 | Posted by contrecoup at 2020-02-24 08:12 PM | Reply

Sure.
People think they are signing up to learn how to run a CNC machine at $68/hr when they will really be learning how to run a cash register at McDonald's or a dry cleaning machine for a Chinese laundry.

Ask any employer which wants real IT employees, bioengineering majors or chemical engineers and roughly none of them will be interested in employees with any alternative' to a college degree. Hell, even the Wall Street Journal reports that almost half of manufacturing jobs require a college degree.

The goal of this program is to keep the skill set of young employees as low as possible so as to perpetuate a low minimum wage. Someone has to sew the tags into Ivankas Spring blouse collection...

#23 | Posted by catdog at 2020-02-24 08:13 PM | Reply

#22

The world has enough bad coders.

#24 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2020-02-24 08:21 PM | Reply

After they reach top wage?
#19 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER

Our electrician apprenticeships tout upwards of $75-$90K per year. Key difference, I believe, is that they can reach that peak a lot quicker than anyone going through college. So an average high school graduate might expect earning that (if entered training immediately after graduation) kind of money by the time they reach 28 years old, maybe even sooner depending on industry connections. Electrician is the most lucrative pathway, from what I can tell.

And keep in mind this is in Southern California, so cost of living could be skewing the overall salary expectation. I'm not sure what this looks like in neighboring states. Some of our kids had no clue they would be capable of earning such a salary without "being good in school." So having our apprenticeship representatives present to our students is always an awe-inspiring event. And the appreciation they express to us for connecting them to these programs really makes it all worthwhile. Alumni that come back to speak to our students who have recently benefitted from these programs are also a big reward for us. I really appreciated Trump's interest in bolstering the apprenticeship opportunities. Just sad to see that this current thread topic has been all that we've seen tangibly. Would love to see more grant monies coming down the pike to expand these opportunities. But, I anticipate that will come in second term... hopefully.

#25 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-24 08:23 PM | Reply

How much do paid Bloombergers make these days?
#20 | POSTED BY LIVE_OR_DIE

$2,500 per month, last I saw.

#26 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-24 08:24 PM | Reply

#17 and 25.

Thanks for taking this seriously, people don't realize that there are many skilled trades where good money can be made with a little training.

I have long been a proponent of raising the bar and making either an AA or a Trade degree mandatory (like a HS diploma is now) and making JCs and Trade Colleges free for people not going to four year Universities.

This is long overdue, wouldn't cost that much unlike "free" 4 year college degrees and would be a logical next step.

#27 | Posted by Rightocenter at 2020-02-24 08:32 PM | Reply

If it were not t-rump supporting skilled job training, the program might have some credibility. But consider the source and - need I go on explaining? There are some good people in the blue collar world, morally good, but a great many are socially and politically narrow minded.

#28 | Posted by grumpy_too at 2020-02-24 08:36 PM | Reply

"Morgan, who is 20, is already working on a job site when he isn't at the Pacific Northwest Ironworkers shop. He gets benefits, including a pension, from employers at the job sites where he is training. And he is earning $28.36 an hour, or more than $50,000 a year, which is almost certain to steadily increase.

Some 30 million jobs in the United States that pay an average of $55,000 per year don't require bachelor's degrees.

As for his friends from high school, "they're still in college," he said with a wry grin. "Someday maybe they'll make as much as me."

www.npr.org

#29 | Posted by nullifidian at 2020-02-24 08:37 PM | Reply

This is long overdue, wouldn't cost that much unlike "free" 4 year college degrees and would be a logical next step.
#27 | POSTED BY RIGHTOCENTER

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm a little ashamed I don't know this information off the top of my head, but I believe California is working towards free tuition for community colleges. I can see the potential for massive issues to stem from that, but I think it's a decent step to figuring out what would be the best practice moving forward. Glad to see you agree with this considering the value of a high school diploma has basically dropped through the floor. An AA goes a long way these days, especially its equivalent in a trade. Providing opportunities for the most downtrodden to obtain this level of education without having to worry about tuition could truly be a game changer for the lower classes, IMO.

#30 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-24 08:39 PM | Reply

--Would love to see more grant monies coming down the pike to expand these opportunities.

And possibly "free" trade schools, for at least a year.

#31 | Posted by nullifidian at 2020-02-24 08:41 PM | Reply

--If it were not t-rump supporting skilled job training, the program might have some credibility.

That's typical. Trump could advocate motherhood and apple pie and you crazies would oppose it.

#32 | Posted by nullifidian at 2020-02-24 08:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

-but I believe California is working towards free tuition for community colleges.

community colleges in Kansas are already practically free for residents. With maybe 1 or 2 exceptions, they are associates degrees only and a 4 year degree will require you to attend another college for 2 years more going full time.

but it's not out of reach for most folks. I know a lot of kids attending community college for next to nothing, working 20+ hours a week and can transfer to one of the state schools in 2 years and not be entrenched in debt when they graduate.

#33 | Posted by eberly at 2020-02-24 08:47 PM | Reply

If it were not t-rump supporting skilled job training, the program might have some credibility. But consider the source and - need I go on explaining? There are some good people in the blue collar world, morally good, but a great many are socially and politically narrow minded.
#28 | POSTED BY GRUMPY_TOO

It's really the one thing I've totally jumped on the Trump train about. Not much else I enjoy about his policies or vision for the U.S., but I was honestly excited when he was campaigning and then promising an expansion of apprenticeship and trade opportunities for those uninterested in a four year degree. There should be a good balance within secondary education in terms of professing available opportunities, of which the public education system (at least the one I work for) fell away from dramatically around five years ago. We've had major leadership changes that no longer dictate the vision that "every child in San Diego County will be college educated." That mission was simply untenable and incredibly short sited. In reality, it stemmed from a group of leaders with major ego complexes barking at each other in a silo. That mission was not only impractical, it was illogical. With major changes in leadership, our teachers are ALL on board with the idea that non-college bound students should be given all the opportunities for financial success available, the vast majority of which lie within apprenticeship and trade school opportunities. Still excited to see what that means from a federal level making major investments in these systems.

#34 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-24 08:49 PM | Reply

--Would love to see more grant monies coming down the pike to expand these opportunities.
And possibly "free" trade schools, for at least a year.

Yes, to funding apprenticeship programs and trade school courses in much the same way people are calling for free college.

#35 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2020-02-24 08:50 PM | Reply

And possibly "free" trade schools, for at least a year.
#31 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

NULLI NEWSWORTHY

NEWSWORTHY NULLI

#36 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-24 08:51 PM | Reply

but it's not out of reach for most folks. I know a lot of kids attending community college for next to nothing, working 20+ hours a week and can transfer to one of the state schools in 2 years and not be entrenched in debt when they graduate.
#33 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Can't say I carry any regrets, but I do see the major benefit of taking that path than the one I did. I simply love the connections and friends I made taking the path that I did too much to exclaim any regrets.

#37 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-24 08:53 PM | Reply

#36 I know, right? A rare moment in which Nulli and I agree.

#38 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2020-02-24 08:54 PM | Reply

#36 is Newsworthy.

#39 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2020-02-24 09:03 PM | Reply

-I know a lot of kids attending community college for next to nothing, working 20+ hours a week and can transfer to one of the state schools in 2 years and not be entrenched in debt when they graduate.

Yeah, I know all about that. Partied too hard in high school and went to a juco for a year before getting admitted to the University of California.

#40 | Posted by nullifidian at 2020-02-24 09:07 PM | Reply

Yeah, I know all about that. Partied too hard in high school and went to a juco for a year before getting admitted to the University of California.
#40 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

What was it that pulled you it of partying too hard?

#41 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-24 09:09 PM | Reply

Went to look for info on free college in the state of NY:

What to Know About New York's Plan to Offer Free College
time.com

and found this:

Tuition-free college is now a reality in nearly 20 states
www.cnbc.com

#42 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2020-02-24 09:11 PM | Reply

Being able to make a living is a good thing, no matter what it takes, of course I'm in favor of that. But the repugs are using emphasis on trade skills to mask their overall plan to dumb down the population and break the trend which is probably going to put them out of the WH.

According to the Census Bureau, since the year 2000 to 2018 the number of PhD's in the US doubled from 2 to 4.5 million, the number of those holding a masters degree doubled from 10 to 21 million, while the number of bachelors jumped from 29.8 m to 48.2 million. These kinds of people with excellent educations cannot be counted on to vote repug.

In 2016 according to Pew there were 29% t-rump voters with a college degree. After what has been going on for the last few years no one would predict that percentage will increase.

#43 | Posted by grumpy_too at 2020-02-24 09:34 PM | Reply

In 2016 according to Pew there were 29% t-rump voters with a college degree. After what has been going on for the last few years no one would predict that percentage will increase.
#43 | POSTED BY GRUMPY_TOO

Interesting to consider, but that's a major undertaking without any realistic probability of success. Hence, I am grateful for Repubs and Trump support for these alternative opportunities.

#44 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-02-24 09:48 PM | Reply

It feels like there are already fewer and fewer students in higher education.

#1 | POSTED BY BRUCEBANNER AT 2020-02-24 01:11 PM | FLAG:

It grew massively, then stabilized.

Blue collar job demand is high right now. Society is not producing enough skilled tradesmen. This is a basic attempt to alleviate that by encouraging Americans to obtain lucrative skills. This is the least controversial thing this Admin has pulled off.

#45 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2020-02-25 08:09 AM | Reply

Speaking of that blue collar shortage, Tesla is hiring. You do not even have to be a high school graduate, and they will train you.

#46 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2020-02-25 08:11 AM | Reply

Sign at the entrance of the Tesla production floor.

#47 | Posted by LesWit at 2020-02-25 04:18 PM | Reply

Yrump and Mnuchin's only solution to underemployment of millenials who are college grads -- is more underemployment.

#48 | Posted by grumpy_too at 2020-02-25 05:52 PM | Reply

Are they really thinking about changing the little circle.

#49 | Posted by Petrous at 2020-02-25 06:48 PM | Reply

First, too many people here are too ignorant to understand that education and intelligence are not the same thing.

More on the subject: I know -tons- of people with no college degree making 6 figures in Hampton Roads VA. It's probably not DC or NY or SF or Seattle money, but it is well over middle class here. Getting my engineering degree opened up avenues beyond that for me, but I am well aware that experience, intelligence, work ethic and trustworthiness easily overcome a lack of formal school-based education. I have workers working with me doing exactly the same job some with Masters (engineering management) and some with just a lifetime of experience doing the job and leading personnel.

The obnoxious attitude that is displayed upthread about people who are more than capable of doing a job, earning a living & succeeding without resorting to getting a 4-year degree and taking on loans to do that is just vile. It is false and completely unearned feelings of superiority.

#50 | Posted by Avigdore at 2020-02-25 09:33 PM | Reply

Are they really thinking about changing the little circle.

#49 | POSTED BY PETROUS AT 2020-02-25 06:48 PM | REPLY

**dad joke alert**

#51 | Posted by cbob at 2020-02-25 09:44 PM | Reply

The problem is that 'University Trained' no longer equates to Educated. The Dems have no solution to this problem.

#52 | Posted by iragoldberg at 2020-02-25 10:15 PM | Reply

#52. You are not wrong. But at least we wish for people to be well educated. The problem worldwide is the return of feudalism and decline of democracy. Can the blue, white, and pink collar people all get together and take the power back from the suits?

#53 | Posted by grumpy_too at 2020-02-26 03:20 AM | Reply

"#52. You are not wrong. But at least we wish for people to be well educated."

I agree with you - but we probably disagree on the definition of 'well educated'. In that sense, I don't even think the problem is the university system - the problem starts at the broken K-12 levels. Once these kids get to college, they are stuck taking remedial classes at huge expense with their specializations having little economic demand - which leads to the student loan problem. I do think we have a cultural problem in that the society ------- 2 year degrees and apprenticeship training leading a ton of people into college that don't belong or will benefit from it. For half of liberal arts majors, they would have been better of getting training on the espresso machine rather than feminist studies.

#54 | Posted by iragoldberg at 2020-02-26 03:44 AM | Reply

White House to Promote Alternatives to the Degree

Not a bad thing. A complex society/economy such as ours, needs/requires workers of all types.

In America, every American child is entitled to a free education through the 12th grade. There is no reason not to extend it through to two years of Community College. However, before spending the money on extending it, I would ensure that the free education through the 12th grade is of high quality.

I like the idea of having tuition at public colleges be free as long as there is equivalent support for free tuition for students to learn vocational skills to become electricians, plumbers, machinists, carpenters, etc.

#55 | Posted by FedUpWithPols at 2020-02-26 05:22 AM | Reply

I thought we already had an alternative.

It's called the military.

#56 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-02-26 01:26 PM | Reply

I've got no beef with this concept. Not everyone is college material but they can still be smart and well suited for a rewarding career for which there is high demand.

Can Trump's daughter/girlfriend implement any of this competently? I'm going to say no and hope I'm proven wrong.

#57 | Posted by cbob at 2020-02-26 01:34 PM | Reply

Shhhh, that crushes The Narrative.

#8 | POSTED BY RIGHTOCENTER

The only thing crushed is your stupid narrative shtick.

Get some new material, that well is long dry.

#58 | Posted by jpw at 2020-02-26 01:35 PM | Reply

--If it were not t-rump supporting skilled job training, the program might have some credibility.
That's typical. Trump could advocate motherhood and apple pie and you crazies would oppose it.
#32 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

Jesus.

They are running an Ad Campaign. They aren't making it easier to go to either a 2 year school or a 4 year school.

Obama proposed $12 billion to support community colleges and trade schools in 2009. The GOP fought it. He eventually got $2 billion.

Maybe if states hadn't been cutting funding to state universities for years, a 4 year college wouldn't be as expensive that we'd be having to resort to this.

An Ad Campaign is not a solution.

#59 | Posted by Sycophant at 2020-02-26 02:35 PM | Reply

The solution already exists. 4.5% student loans, guaranteed by the fed.

#60 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2020-02-26 05:15 PM | Reply

This isn't "resorting to this". What a sickly elitist view. There's a blue collar skill gap that exists right now, and it does not require a 4 year degree.

#61 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2020-02-26 05:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

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