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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Wednesday, March 25, 2020

Economists led by Northwestern University's Martin Eichenbaum wrote that keeping social-distancing measures in place before the number of new virus cases declines -- in other words, before a peak in the infection rate -- could limit infections and prevent as many as 600,000 additional U.S. deaths.

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"While the economic damage is deeper when optimal health measures are taken, a recession is unavoidable even without them, as infected people would stay at home to recover and millions die, the report shows."

So, what I'm seeing is that but shuttering the country for an as-yet undermined amount of time, we could potentially save .1% of the population.

327 million vs. 600k.

Maybe it's a point worth discussion if we think that this thing is going to peter out in the next couple of weeks, but the stimulus just passed isn't going to pay the bills for more than a month at most for those who need it.

#1 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 04:24 AM | Reply

I think this needs to be viewed in the context of a military campaign, as it is as close to war as most Americans have ever come. And you can't fight a campaign if you're not willing to accept casualties. At Omaha Beach, the casualty rate was just under 9%. Did they fight for a country, only to have that same country surrender en masse to a virus, 75 years later?

#2 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 04:30 AM | Reply

And you can't fight a campaign if you're not willing to accept casualties

#2 | Posted by madbomber

You and your family first.

#3 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 09:35 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The passive acceptance of 600,000 deaths should cause a revolution in this country. If there's an uprising because of such, I'm in. No, Donald Trump doesn't get to live in comfort at Mar-A-Lago while that many people die.

The passive acceptance of 600,000 "casualties" might well bring down the Wrath of God.

"Realists" need recall that 600,000 dead people may well be optimistic.

How about 2-3 million dead?

#4 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 09:46 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"If there's an uprising because of such, I'm in."

LOL

#5 | Posted by eberly at 2020-03-25 10:44 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

LOL

#5 | Posted by eberly

No one ever gets angry in Kansas, EB? Lithium in the water?

#6 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 10:45 AM | Reply

--"If there's an uprising because of such, I'm in."

In other words, spend even more time blogging.

#7 | Posted by nullifidian at 2020-03-25 10:49 AM | Reply

7

exactly my point....Does Zed even own a pair of shoes?

#8 | Posted by eberly at 2020-03-25 10:51 AM | Reply

Does Zed even own a pair of shoes?

#8 | Posted by eberly at

Everyone goes barefoot in Texas. It's just manly.

#9 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 10:55 AM | Reply

In other words, spend even more time blogging.

#7 | Posted by nullifidian at 2020

I'm still working. In isolation.

I'm still writing. In isolation.

My wife and I are healthy and not yet broke.

We're blessed.

#10 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 10:57 AM | Reply

8

They only allow bunny slippers in the ward

#11 | Posted by nullifidian at 2020-03-25 11:02 AM | Reply

#4 What's a couple of million dead among true American pattiots?

#12 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2020-03-25 11:11 AM | Reply

The passive acceptance of 600,000 deaths should cause a revolution in this country.

But it won't, but with an unemployed youth, there is a mighty risk of revolution.

#13 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2020-03-25 11:16 AM | Reply

Revolution over what? the delayed response to the COVID-19 virus?

and what would the revolutionaries be demanding? If there are any......

#14 | Posted by eberly at 2020-03-25 11:18 AM | Reply

But it won't

#13 | Posted by AndreaMackris

Won't what?

The argument being advanced by the Right, today, is that "old people" (never defined, but surely never including Trump) should die for the greater good.

#15 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 11:19 AM | Reply

with an unemployed youth, there is a mighty risk of revolution.

#13 | Posted by AndreaMackris at

If one-half million die there's a risk of revolution. If it is perceived Trump and others are willing to let them die (it is) then I'd say a revolution is assured.

#16 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 11:20 AM | Reply

"You and your family first."

My father will likely die if he contracts it, or at least meets the criteria of being older and having underlying health conditions. Myself and my wife would probably not know we had it, nor would our kids. Although she is sitting downstairs right now with some form of bad cold-I'll get her tested Friday if she doesn't get better. But I think it's just allergies.

And I'm curious what your position is, because in another thread you seemed somewhat rational. There are people out there who believe that the entire world should be brought to a halt until this thing is contained, regardless of the collateral damage something like that would cause. I have to believe that those people are not the average family with a mortgage and a few car payments, because if this goes on for more than a few months, those things will no longer exist.

You guys are talking about the passive acceptance of 600k dead old people, what about 100-200 million who can't feed their families because the government won't allow them to leave the house? They would almost certainly revolt, and be correct to do so.

#17 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 11:23 AM | Reply

"The argument being advanced by the Right, today, is that "old people" (never defined, but surely never including Trump) should die for the greater good."

Who is saying that? Link?

#18 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 11:23 AM | Reply

They would almost certainly revolt, and be correct to do so.

#17 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 11:23 AMFlag: (Choose)FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusive

A regime that won't protect it's population, all of it, is illegitimate.

So, yeah. Bring on the revolution.

#19 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 11:25 AM | Reply

Link?

#18 | Posted by madbomber

The current Texas Lt. Governor and Sean Hannity, among others.

#20 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 11:25 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

You guys are talking about the passive acceptance of 600k dead old people, what about 100-200 million who can't feed their families

#17 | Posted by madbomber

This isn't rational. It's a piece of right-wing propaganda that's emerged only in the last three days.

Britain is supporting everyone's income at 80% without talk of genocide.

#21 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 11:27 AM | Reply

Zed leading the revolution!

www.youtube.com

#22 | Posted by nullifidian at 2020-03-25 11:29 AM | Reply

False choice is a favorite logical fallacy used to get someone to accept a premise. Don't fall for it.

#23 | Posted by YAV at 2020-03-25 11:30 AM | Reply

"A regime that won't protect it's population, all of it, is illegitimate."

Right now it's not protecting everyone. It's deprived them of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, in favor of a small segment of the population.

#24 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 11:37 AM | Reply

Britain is supporting everyone's income at 80% without talk of genocide.
#21 | POSTED BY ZED

How long? Businesses are closing, there are other costs than labor, and the money is ascertained through their companies.

California is looking at 12 weeks.

How few "positive" cases would be wise to go back to "normal"? Zed? So we don't have to hear your histrionics?

0, 10,000? Whats the number?

What if it flares up again as pandemics tend to do?

False choice is a favorite logical fallacy used to get someone to accept a premise. Don't fall for it.
#23 | POSTED BY YAV

Thats exactly what Trump is saying ... its a false dichotomy.

#25 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2020-03-25 11:40 AM | Reply

Right now it's not protecting everyone. It's deprived them of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, in favor of a small segment of the population.

#24 | Posted by madbomber

Obscure.

#26 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 11:40 AM | Reply

So we don't have to hear your histrionics?

#25 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2020-03-25 11:40 AMFlag: (Choose)FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusive

Concern about 600,000 dead is histrionics?

Trumpism is a disease.

#27 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 11:42 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"This isn't rational. It's a piece of right-wing propaganda that's emerged only in the last three days. Britain is supporting everyone's income at 80% without talk of genocide."

Really? 80%? For how long? And how are they going to pay for it. Massive tax increases on those still considered important enough to be permitted to work?

I hope you're right. I really do. But what I see and hear is a lot of people who, for whatever reason, couldn't care less about the economic impact of the coronavirus. What's important to them is dropping the mortality rate as close to zero as possible, and by nay means necessary.

I don't know who these people are, but they must be the independently wealthy old people who don't need a paycheck. Or maybe they get a paycheck regardless of whether they leave their house or not. But it's incredibly selfish to demand those people and their families suffer so that an extremely at risk group can maybe live a little longer.

#28 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 11:43 AM | Reply

"Concern about 600,000 dead is histrionics?"

Why are you not even a little concerned about the hundreds of millions of others who are being put at risk due to lockdowns?

Is California going to cover 80% of salaries for the next three months?

#29 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 11:45 AM | Reply

But what I see and hear is a lot of people who, for whatever reason, couldn't care less about the economic impact of the coronavirus.

#28 | Posted by madbomber

What you see, I think, is people prioritizing life over money.

#30 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 11:45 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Why are you not even a little concerned about the hundreds of millions of others who are being put at risk due to lockdowns?

#29 | Posted by madbomber

Risk greater or lesser than sickness and death?

#31 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 11:46 AM | Reply

But it's incredibly selfish to demand those people and their families suffer so that an extremely at risk group can maybe live a little longer.

#28 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 11:43 AMFlag: (Choose)FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusive

Ye gods.

#32 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 11:47 AM | Reply

Hell, Our friend Snoofy keeps quoting 18 months. How many stimulus packages will that require?

#33 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 11:47 AM | Reply

I think that the option of simply letting a plague burn through America is insane. Every other country in the world is scrambling to make sure that doesn't happen.

#34 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 11:49 AM | Reply

Go live on libertarian island, madbomber, community good is a concept you can't understand apparently. Maybe if you're not so invulnerable after all you will learn something,about humility and reality. As it is now you seem selfish and unhinged.

#35 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-03-25 11:49 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Risk greater or lesser than sickness and death?"

So, for the groups at risk, death is already on the horizon. The only question is how far off that horizon sits.

In comparison, you have hundreds of millions of families, who are by government decree being deprived of their right to earn and income and take care of their families. Other than the current planned hand out, of $3100 for a family of four, there is no income arriving to make car payments, or mortgage payments, or pay the utilities, or pay for health insurance. Or whatever. And you seem to be saying that none of that matters, provided the old and the sickly have a shot at a few more years.

My question to you would be why not sequester the old and the sickly into facilities where they could be treated in quarantine, and lift the ban on everyone else. How does that not make far more ------- sense then making everyone stay home out of the fear that they may inadvertently give COVID to an old person?

#36 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 11:52 AM | Reply

So, for the groups at risk, death is already on the horizon. The only question is how far off that horizon sits.

36 | Posted by madbomber at 2020

Congratulations on re-stating the human condition.

#37 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 11:53 AM | Reply

"Go live on libertarian island, madbomber, community good is a concept you can't understand apparently. Maybe if you're not so invulnerable after all you will learn something,about humility and reality. As it is now you seem selfish and unhinged."

I see it as you who are being selfish. Millions of young people trying to figure out how to pay the bills because you're scared you might get sick.

Who knows, maybe they'll revolt, knowing that their outlook has become very bleak.

#38 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 11:54 AM | Reply

there is no income arriving to make car payments, or mortgage payments, or pay the utilities, or pay for health insurance. Or whatever.

#36 | Posted by madbomber at

Other countries are imposing moratoria on such things.

#39 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 11:54 AM | Reply

Mad,

You're really showing your sociopathic side with that line of thought.

Anybody who lives their entire lives centered around money (and by extension, the economy) is a sick individual.

#40 | Posted by jpw at 2020-03-25 11:55 AM | Reply

you're scared you might get sick.

#38 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 11:

I've survived much worse than this.

Interesting. You see me as a coward because I don't want friends and family to die and I see you as one for saying that's alright with you.

#41 | Posted by Zed at 2020-03-25 11:57 AM | Reply

"Congratulations on re-stating the human condition."

Yup.

I think it's also important to recognize that I'm saying old and sickly, it's really just sickly. It's just that the old people, at least in the US, tend to be the sickest. Where I live in Germany though, the mortality rate is very low. .4%. And I think it has to do a lot with the lifestyle choices of the Germans. It's quite normal to head down to Bavaria and see some ancient couple trotting up the mountain at a quicker clip than many Americans could at a quarter of their age. And even though they smoke, drink, and eat mostly fried stuff, they tend to be very fit. I think that is probably a benefit in times like these.

#42 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 11:58 AM | Reply

"Other countries are imposing moratoria on such things."

I think the US should have done that to start with. A one time check for $3k is going to do very little for most people.

Most lenders will let you skip payments on loans if requested...I just don't know if the lenders could stay solvent if they're not bringing in any income for months on end.

#43 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 12:01 PM | Reply

"Interesting. You see me as a coward because I don't want friends and family to die and I see you as one for saying that's alright with you."

It's not alright, but I do see it as being incumbent upon themselves to hole up if they are in an at-risk group. You're not going to get sick if you explicitly remove yourself from any form of direct human contact.

#44 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 12:02 PM | Reply

Also madbomber, death rates for the young have risen,so your excuse to throw the older under the bus Is getting weaker all the time. We are all in his together, young and old. I wish you could see a common good here, as it is you come across as scared and entitled,even if others must die for your "freedom to go out". It's a few months at most. Not forever. But death,is forever. You seem so sure the virus can't hurt you directly, that alone could be your biggest folly.

#45 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-03-25 12:03 PM | Reply

"Also madbomber, death rates for the young have risen,so your excuse to throw the older under the bus Is getting weaker all the time."

The flu has never respected age limits...in fact it's usually a more equal opportunity to killer in terms of demographics. But how many times have you had the flu? It doesn't seem to have ever killed you. It's never killed me.

I wish you could see a common good here, as it is you come across as scared and entitled,even if others must die for your "freedom to go out".

That's actually a very interesting statement. I actually view much of this panic as being the result of fear. I'm a military aviator by trade, and have spent the past five years doing plans. When I look at this, my first question is how do we minimize damage (or maximize benefit-same thing from a different perspective), while minimizing risk. It's called finding the bend in the knee. Current policy appears to be minimizing risk without consideration of the collateral damage that is causing or could cause. That's what I hear YOU saying. To me, this is common sense. It doesn't matter if I do, or you die, or 600,000 thousand of us die, if it prevents the country from devolving into a failed state. I care more about the survival of my family, and them being able to go on to live happy prosperous lives than I do my own survival. And your family as well. It's kinda why I joined the military in the first place.

But as I said, there's a compromise that people don't seem to be talking about-a quarantine of those who are at high risk of infection, allowing the rest of the population to go about their business. Because statistically, the odds of me getting the disease are relatively unknown. If I did get it, 90% chance that I wouldn't even know it or show mild symptoms. There is a .4% chance that I would die from it. 1/250. I'll take those odds any day of the week.

It's a few months at most. Not forever.

I hope you're right. I was listening to Smerconish the other day...he had a professor call in. This guy said that the economic impact shouldn't even be under consideration. The entire goal should be to get the mortality rate as close to zero as possible. I have to imagine that he was getting a check from someone regardless of whether he worked or not.

#46 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 12:28 PM | Reply

The fact that we even have to choose between putting people in financial ruin or preventing the spread of illness is a direct result of regressive politics and an inadequate social safety net.

Thanks, Republicans and moderate Democrats. You built this.

#47 | Posted by joe at 2020-03-25 12:42 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Capitalism will be mortally wounded by this. Free flow of cash and goods is a thing of the past for now. When people see the "iron laws of economics" as arbitrary and stupid dogma. The current system will be severely undermined and will change beyond recognition.
This has already started to happen. The repubs have voted for a largely universal payout and are seeing the worth of social protections now that,THEIR OWN, are at risk. Classic "me firstism" is going to take a huge hit here in the next year or so.

#48 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-03-25 12:49 PM | Reply

Bill Gates on Trump call for quick end to lockdown
www.marketwatch.com

...

There really is no middle ground, and it's very tough to say to people, "Hey, keep going to restaurants, go buy new houses, [and] ignore that pile of bodies over in the corner. We want you to keep spending because there's maybe a politician who thinks GDP growth is all that counts." '
--- Bill Gates

Gates told TED, according to Recode, that "it's very irresponsible for somebody to suggest that we can have the best of both worlds," referring to mitigating the impact of the deadly pathogen on human lives and keeping the economy whirring. ...


#49 | Posted by LampLighter at 2020-03-25 01:00 PM | Reply

So now Republicans are in favor of death panels.

#50 | Posted by YAV at 2020-03-25 01:11 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

(real ones, not the fake ones they used to constantly lie about)

#51 | Posted by YAV at 2020-03-25 01:12 PM | Reply

"I have to imagine that he was getting a check from someone regardless of whether he worked or not."

Why do you have to imagine that. It is virtually identical to what Gov. Cuomo said, lots of other people said. Why do we have to suspect truth tellers of being paid liars? I can pretty much look around right now and know who is lying to me. If someone tells me that in 20 days this will all be over I know that person is a liar.

#52 | Posted by danni at 2020-03-25 01:12 PM | Reply

"Revolution over what?"

There are two sides:
Your money or your life.
I suppose for Deplorables, those are synonymoys.
That's the issue.

And it's not like these 600,000 extra deaths are "free."

People won't just politely keel over and die in an orderly fashion.

These people won't be dying in camps, away from society and the media.

And it won't all be old people.

They're going to die while doing whatever they can to stay alive. They'll be consuming hospital resources, they're going to be additional sources of infection in their communities.

And then Someone is going to have to find a way to dispose of an extra 600,000 diseased dead bodies or we are going to have a cholera epidemic on top of this.

Perhaps MadBomber can lead the bulldozers, Tienanmen Square style.

#53 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-25 01:15 PM | Reply

"The fact that we even have to choose between putting people in financial ruin or preventing the spread of illness is a direct result of regressive politics and an inadequate social safety net."

How do you create an adequate social safety net for households making several hundred thousand dollars a year.

Should the new norm become people being told to hoard cash because they government may one day tell them they're no longer allowed to work?

#54 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 01:23 PM | Reply

Repubs want walled cities with piles of corpse's outside the gates. Been tried before in Italy in the 14th century,didn't work out as planned though. The wealthy died just as much as the poor. Disease respects no boundaries and recognizes no titles.
Our entire society is going to be changed by this, more than any war or mere economic downturn alone would.
The future is ripe with new possibilities. I hope America is able to realize them.
ECONOMIC GROWTH IS NOT EVERYTHING. human development is more important. Life itself is more important. The earth and it's other denizens is more important.
These are the lessons that the virus will cram down our unwilling throats.

#55 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-03-25 01:23 PM | Reply

How do you create an adequate social safety net for households making several hundred thousand dollars a year.

Explain how that's a response to my post and not a stupid deflection that you could easily answer by researching how other places do it.

#56 | Posted by JOE at 2020-03-25 01:24 PM | Reply

"If someone tells me that in 20 days this will all be over I know that person is a liar."

So what do you think the US looks like six months from now if nobody is working?

#57 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 01:25 PM | Reply

I'm not calling madbomber a Nazi, but his argument is awfully familiar.

en.wikipedia.org

#58 | Posted by truthhurts at 2020-03-25 01:26 PM | Reply

"People won't just politely keel over and die in an orderly fashion."

They certainly are in Italy, where less healthy patients are being sidelined in favor of patients who will respond better to the treatment.

"And then Someone is going to have to find a way to dispose of an extra 600,000 diseased dead bodies or we are going to have a cholera epidemic on top of this."

In Iran, the solution has been mass graves.

#59 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 01:30 PM | Reply

In Iran, the solution has been mass graves.
#59 | Posted by madbomber a

crematoria would be more efficient

#60 | Posted by truthhurts at 2020-03-25 01:30 PM | Reply

"ECONOMIC GROWTH IS NOT EVERYTHING. human development is more important."

Human development will not and can not occur when people are locked away. If this thing goes on for a few weeks, no big deal.

A year from now, the US looks like Venezuela, if it hasn't torn itself apart.

#61 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 01:32 PM | Reply

"I'm not calling madbomber a Nazi, but his argument is awfully familiar."

You can call me whatever the ---- you want. But in six months, when your cupboards have run bare and you're begging for another government handout, don't forget this lesson.

#62 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 01:33 PM | Reply

in fact, lets just identify the at risk population and put them in, say cluster camps, that will allow for an efficient solution

the segregated solution can even work while in their cluster camps, cause after all work can be liberating

#63 | Posted by truthhurts at 2020-03-25 01:33 PM | Reply

#54 Maybe you're just gonna have to take a loss, champ. Making hundreds of thousands a year is a fantasy for 99% of humanity,welcome to the human condition,sport.
Disease respects no titles, you're actually not better or more important than everyone else.
This pestilence is going to lay low the mighty just like the black death did Europe 700 years ago. The Renaissance was the end result. I'm pretty sure a lot of well placed people back then we're appalled by the changes.
Humanity was boosted overall by their "losses".
Change, especially harsh losses associated with that change is a frightening thing.
We are entering a new world nobody knows exactly what will come next.

#64 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-03-25 01:35 PM | Reply

"I'm not calling madbomber a Nazi, but his argument is awfully familiar."
You can call me whatever the ---- you want. But in six months, when your cupboards have run bare and you're begging for another government handout, don't forget this lesson.
#62 | Posted by madbomber

nah, more likely id be dead if I was one of the 600K. SO what do you think I will do when the tan shirted policemen come to get me?

#65 | Posted by truthhurts at 2020-03-25 01:35 PM | Reply

don't forget this lesson.
#62 | Posted by madbomber

History has taught me better lessons.

#66 | Posted by truthhurts at 2020-03-25 01:36 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"How do you create an adequate social safety net for households making several hundred thousand dollars a year."

Well, in point of fact, the role of society should be to create an adequate safety net for society.

And for those you describe, society has mostly already done that.

They are gonna need:
Food
Shelter (done)
Clothing (done)

Feel free to expand on my list, maybe you'd like to incorporate Lazlow's Pyramid if that's your thing?

#67 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-25 01:37 PM | Reply

So what do you think the US looks like six months from now if nobody is working?

The best way to ensure this last six months is to reopen society before we have the testing and contact-tracing methods in place to stop new outbreaks as they occur.

Trump's idea to reopen on Easter is likely to make the pandemic so much worse that the economy is cratering anyway. Nobody's going to return to work, shopping and restaurants while the hospitals are out of ventilators, old people are being left to die without them and there are hundreds or even thousands dying each day.

There is no path out of this that doesn't involve lockdowns until the U.S. government and health authorities have things under control.

#68 | Posted by rcade at 2020-03-25 01:39 PM | Reply

"But in six months, when your cupboards have run bare and you're begging for another government handout, don't forget this lesson."

Corporations went begging for a handout after three weeks.

Any lessons there?

#69 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-25 01:39 PM | Reply

It doesn't matter how many lives are lost! Trump knows that he MUST be reelected or else he's going to prison! To win reelection, he's got to have the economy humming and unemployment must be low. That's not happening with things being shut down. Further more, because urban centers are more densely populated, they are likely to be more savaged by corona than rural areas. And we all know that urban are more likely to be anti Trump.

#70 | Posted by FedUpWithPols at 2020-03-25 01:43 PM | Reply

And for those you describe, society has mostly already done that.
They are gonna need:
Food
Shelter (done)
Clothing (done)

So, the government is going to prevent them from working, and in return, they get a FEMA shelter, MRE's, and some surplus military uniforms.

I'm sure they'll be quite accepting knowing that some sickly person was able to live a few years longer as a result of their sacrifice.

It'll be like ISIS refugee camps...but in the US.

#71 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 01:48 PM | Reply

To be fair, Hair Furor is working hard on a methodology to limit the pool of 600,000 dead guys to:

1: Democrats,
2: Messikans,
3: Chinese,
4: anyone who voted against him, and
5: Wimmin who have accused him of rape.

He has also instructed his minions to refer to the "metaphysically challenged". Not "dead guys".

#72 | Posted by contrecoup at 2020-03-25 01:54 PM | Reply

"Nobody's going to return to work, shopping and restaurants while the hospitals are out of ventilators, old people are being left to die without them and there are hundreds or even thousands dying each day."

I'm not in the US right now...my understanding is that restrictions are basically localized. If that's the case, why wouldn't at least some people in lightly affected states return to work. As I've been saying, you're going to have a problem telling people in places that have been largely isolated from the effects of COVID (such as the mountain states) that they're going to have to stay home and live on what the government gives them. And with the correct precautions, this seems completely reasonable. I feel like I could be an employee at Home Depot or a grocery store and virtually eliminate the spread of transmission.

Here in Germany, it's basically bars and a lot off retail outlets that have closed. Globus (think Wal-Mart) is open. All the Home Depot-like garden stores are open. And most of the business parks that I drive by each day have cars in the parking lot. But you don't have to stay inside-the Germans would riot if they were told they had to do-that, and you aren't prohibited from social interaction, although the limit is two people from dissimilar households, so you need to be cognizant of distances between parties if you're out hiking or biking or whatever.

#73 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 01:58 PM | Reply

"To be fair, Hair Furor is working hard on a methodology to limit the pool of 600,000 dead guys to:"

If we're being honest, it's mostly older white guys who support Trump. In other words, those most at risk.

#74 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 01:59 PM | Reply

#71 Dude, your privileged position is NOT worth more than some "old people's" lives. Donald ------- Trump is NOT more important than "old people" of which he is one,I might add. Some degree of social solidarity is going to be required here. This will test Everyone, not everyone will pass. I fear a prolonged lockdown as much as anyone. But I recognize the need to preserve our basic humanity in a time of social leveling. The rich are going to lose a lot of their accustomed perks and deference over this,get used to the loss of status,you won't be alone.

#75 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-03-25 02:01 PM | Reply

"I'm sure they'll be quite accepting knowing that some sickly person was able to live a few years longer as a result of their sacrifice."

They accepted Medicare, which does the exact same thing.
I mean, I realize you don't, but they did.

#76 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-25 02:19 PM | Reply

"#71 Dude, your privileged position is NOT worth more than some "old people's" lives."

I don't have a privileged position...something I have stated over and over again. None of us are. Which is why it's completely crazy to sacrifice the vast majority of the population for a small minority.

sacrifice is a bit too dramatic...hopefully this thing is over in a few weeks, but I don't want my kids to grow up waiting in lines for MRE handouts so that some old fogey, or me, can live. I would happily die many painful deaths if it meant my kids could continue to go to school, attend prom, go to college, and someday have their own families. And your kids too, if you have any. Because my life is utterly ------- unimportant compared to the kids and young adults who look like they might get seriously sidelined on this thing, for what to me is no good reason.

And this has nothing to do with the rich, dude. COVID went after Prince Charles. It's an equal opportunity disease. It doesn't seem to care about what your bank account looks like. In fact it's likely that the wealthiest individuals are likely amongst the most vulnerable...so at least that should cheer you up. Of course I think we're going to need them to pay for this thing...right?

#77 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 02:20 PM | Reply

"They accepted Medicare, which does the exact same thing."

Did they-accept medicare while living in a FEMA shelter, subsisting on food labelled as a GIFT FROM THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES?

#78 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 02:22 PM | Reply

"Did they-accept medicare while living in a FEMA shelter"

Why would a family making six figures be living in a FEMA shelter?
Your emotions are getting the better of you.

#79 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-25 02:25 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"living in a FEMA shelter, subsisting on food labelled as a GIFT FROM THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES?"

Save money by skipping the FEMA shelter and just finding some empty land someplace.
Now you've got the system that's worked for Native Americans for the past century or so.
If it's good enough for those Americans citizens, it's good enough for all American citizens.

Okay?

#80 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-25 02:27 PM | Reply

It's a little confusing to me. Back in the day, the US government's primary mission was to protect the American people - no qualifications, and no weaseling.

I fear that, were that put to a vote now, it would go down in flames.

#81 | Posted by contrecoup at 2020-03-25 02:32 PM | Reply

"Back in the day, the US government's primary mission was to protect the American people - no qualifications, and no weaseling."

You must be white!
But yes, I get what you are saying.

If we roll the tape back to 2008, you can see Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin saying only her political supporters represent "Real America."
What I'm saying is, by 2008, the virus had spread across the land and become endemic, with ~100% infection of one political party.

#82 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-25 02:48 PM | Reply

600k deaths is a highly optimistic outcome. The Don's report projected 2 million dead. If there are 600k deaths there will likely be 6-12 MILLION with permanent disability from this via lung damage (the 15-20% that require hospitalization). What is that impact on the 300 odd million? We know Republicans will be "everyone for themselves" while changing "capitalism". Not to mention the impact on medical care period in this country and during this time. How many more will die or be permanently disabled due to a lack of medical treatment?

#83 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2020-03-25 02:59 PM | Reply

Nobody's death is going to cheer me up. I hope everyone is ok. I see the logic in your view that some are Expendable so others can thrive. I just don't agree,and not for selfish,gee,I might be one of the dead, reasons.
What you are calling for has been tried before. In other epidemics it failed to contain the contagion. More people died so the economy could stay open,but in the end it solved nothing. More death, and the economy tanked anyway.
Poe's "Maske of the red death" gives some sense of what I mean.

#84 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-03-25 03:01 PM | Reply

"600k deaths is a highly optimistic outcome."

The Imperial College Report puts it at 1.1-2.2 million over the next 18 months, depending on how good we are at social distancing, since social distancing is literally the only thing we can do. The US Government COVID-19 Response Plan doesn't do body counts, but it does have the same 18 month estimate for the duration of the pandemic.

The topic of this conversation is should we stay at home an extra month or two to save those million or half-million lives that hang in the balance over the next 18 months, or does that cost too much.

#85 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-25 03:10 PM | Reply

#85 | Posted by snoofy

I thought that report pegged it at 2.2 if we did nothing and just let the wave come (and acknowledging they were not taking into account the lack of beds and care.)

My point was it isn't going to be JUST 600k dead from the virus. It would likely be many more and the people getting the pneumonia are suffering permanent scarring to their lungs. Some worse than others - to the point walking is a breath taking chore.

#86 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2020-03-25 03:23 PM | Reply

"My point was it isn't going to be JUST 600k dead from the virus."

Right.
It's 600,000 saved; e.g. if we don't do it, there's going to be 600,000 more dead. This fits nicely in between the one million to two million total dead estimates.

We can't save everyone from Coronavirus by social distancing and flattening the curve; just a half million or so.

Naturally, right-wingers don't think it's worth it to save a half million or so, when the "losses" from not conducting business as usual run into the trillions.
Depending on how many trillions, that puts the value of a human life anywhere from a half million to ten million dollars.
Which could be very high. Much higher than an actuary would put it at. Plane crashes typically end up paying about $2 million per victim.

So, if the cost of staying home an extra month or two is more than a trillion dollars or so, the markets will frown on the choice to take the steps necessary to save those 600,000 lives that hang in the balance.

And that's how Capitalism works.

#87 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-25 03:35 PM | Reply

Guess I should point out that 600,000 people is right around 200 9/11s.

So, the choice America has, can be thought of like this:
Do you want 300 9/11s, or do you want 600 9/11s? (Give or take a hundred 9/11s.)

It doesn't seem like a hard question to me!

But it's existentially difficult for the GOP, and literally existentially relevant to a half million or so people.

#88 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-25 03:52 PM | Reply

"But it's existentially difficult for the GOP."

I don't know why you believe that.

Are you old enuff to remember Paul Ryan, the sloe-eyed granny snuffer?

The goopers figgured this stuff out when Ray Gun was in office.

#89 | Posted by contrecoup at 2020-03-25 04:13 PM | Reply

#89 Good point. I stand corrected.

#90 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-25 04:16 PM | Reply

"I see the logic in your view that some are Expendable so others can thrive."

I don't think you do see the logic. You don't need to sacrifice the sickly for the sake of everyone else...you just have to acknowledge their vulnerability and address that. Which in all honesty shouldn't be difficult, unless you're dealing with someone like my dad who would almost certainly rather croak than be stuck in quarantine.

Beyond that, rely on the numbers. Yes, there are going to be children who die. But children die from the flu right now, and at a far lower risk than posed by COVID. Using some of the logic presented, everyone should be kept in quarantine always because there is a chance, however remote, that they may die from some disease. I could die...so could you...so could anyone. But statistically, we dead would be a tiny fraction of the greater population, who wouldn't have to be sacrificed as a means of preserving those who might or might not be unusually susceptible to a disease. Be it COVID, or something else.

#91 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 04:40 PM | Reply

"And that's how Capitalism works."

Are you as curious as I am to see how Cuba tackles COVID?

#92 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-25 04:42 PM | Reply

Tackles?

You really don't get it yet, huh?

#93 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-25 04:47 PM | Reply

"You don't need to sacrifice the sickly for the sake of everyone else...you just have to acknowledge their vulnerability and address that."

And how exactly do you propose to address that, that doesn't hinge on sacrificing them so the resources they would have consumed are made available for those less sickly?
???
????????

#94 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-25 04:50 PM | Reply

"And how exactly do you propose to address that, that doesn't hinge on sacrificing them so the resources they would have consumed are made available for those less sickly?"

How 'bout "money talks, and everybody else gorks".

#95 | Posted by contrecoup at 2020-03-25 04:57 PM | Reply

Eventually, if this ------ Is OLD testament schitty, we will have to cut some populations loose like they are now with the very old in Italy.

I hope we don't reach that point here.NY may before long. If we do,it will forever alter our society. The choices about life and death and who can pay,and whose life is worth saving and whose isn't, will totally expose the agenda of the anti life repubs and corporate Dems.
It will also expose a huge rift between the young and old.
The Military will be see as a huge waste of resources and energy that could go elsewhere.
Our whole way of life is going to be questioned in a way it never has been before.

Interesting times ahead for the survivors.

#96 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-03-25 06:08 PM | Reply

Trump/Hitler would shoot those people in the face in order to get reelected. That how demented this man is and how mentally deficient his voters are.

#97 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2020-03-26 02:02 AM | Reply

Remember when it was just one man?

Turns out Trump could shoot 600,000 people on Fifth Avenue and not lose any votes.

#98 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-26 02:06 AM | Reply

"And how exactly do you propose to address that, that doesn't hinge on sacrificing them so the resources they would have consumed are made available for those less sickly?"

By isolating them before they get sick.

During the Cold War years, Strategic Air Command had bomber bases all over this country. These bases were equipped with huge hangars built to house bombers. Under BRAC, much of that infrastructure was sold or transferred to state and local governments. Many remain intact, and are isolated enough that they could be used to house both those at risk and the caregivers they require. If necessary, you could literally have entire towns of at risk people isolated in their own little communities.

And since the airlines aren't flying all that much right now, Activate CRAF. Get the pilots back to work ferrying at-risk passengers to areas where their level of risk could be better managed.

Let's use the number 600,000 as being those most at risk. When Thomas Cook fell apart last fall, more than 500,000 Brits were left stranded overseas. It was the greatest mass repatriation of people since WWII. So it's not as if the logistics are outside the realm of the possible.

#99 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-26 07:51 AM | Reply

"Our whole way of life is going to be questioned in a way it never has been before."

We're already seeing it. Over the course of a weekend, my kids schools went fully online. There are good reasons to attend class in person, but if this turns out to be successful, people will rightfully begin to question the value in sitting in a class full of students. Or even being tied to a particular schedule, for that matter.

And teleworking? I imagine that employers will begin to question the value in maintaining a brick and mortar workplace if the same work can be done online. Which would save them money. And parents would no longer need to worry about childcare, which would save them money.

I absolutely believe that this crisis is going to crush paradigms that have existed for centuries. And probably all for the better, even though that's a subjective statement.

#100 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-26 07:56 AM | Reply

By isolating them before they get sick.

Please stop with your lunacy. How many times do you need to be told that almost half of America is at-risk before it sinks into your warped skull?

Putting the at-risk population into herds only makes it more likely that they'll be exposed, and once it starts it would be the equivalent of throwing gasoline on dried kindling, then bringing in a blowtorch. The most vulnerable wouldn't have any protection from the growing herd immunity of those who aren't killed by the virus. Isolating them from a microscopic bug that lives for days on surfaces and can be transferred by touch is akin to a death sentence.

While I admire the thought you've put into this, your solutions are unworkable and will never be actuated for they're practically impossible.

Lastly, you've yet to address the nature of a pandemic and the dynamic of hemispheric differences, ie. as the Southern hemisphere moves into winter, the virus will explode there and even if the north is successful in quelling the virus for summer, all it will take to reignite another wave will be the inevitable infected travelers from the south.

We are doing what needs to be done. The time for alternative actions and responses is long past. Now we hunker down, isolate and wait, hoping that medicine(s) may emerge to fight or kill the virus.

#101 | Posted by tonyroma at 2020-03-26 08:07 AM | Reply

I absolutely believe that this crisis is going to crush paradigms that have existed for centuries.

On that I fully agree and history shows that uncontrollable events often alter the course of societal trajectory.

On one aspect I do still disagree. The emotional need for human interaction should not be discounted, but we'll likely find out that less may be more. Only time will tell.

#102 | Posted by tonyroma at 2020-03-26 08:10 AM | Reply

"Please stop with your lunacy. How many times do you need to be told that almost half of America is at-risk before it sinks into your warped skull?"

Half of America? WTF are you talking about?

90% of people who contract COVID will show only mild symptoms. Maybe none at all.

I took my wife in to get tested this morning. She has all the symptoms of the flu.

#103 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-26 08:27 AM | Reply

"Putting the at-risk population into herds only makes it more likely that they'll be exposed."

You're not thinking dude. You isolate them in the same way that medical professionals isolate themselves. Sterilize them and stick them in pressurized plastic bags. From there, you move them to isolated facilities where they can actually control this sort of thing, where they would remain isolated with necessary caregivers. You would have to explain to me how that would leave them more exposed than they are right now.

"We are doing what needs to be done. The time for alternative actions and responses is long past. Now we hunker down, isolate and wait, hoping that medicine(s) may emerge to fight or kill the virus."

Maybe, unless what you said in your last paragraph is true with regard to dueling hemispheres. In which case we simply hunker down until we die.

Honestly, it seems to me like you don't even want address solving this problem. Close your eyes, plug your ears, and hope it goes away.

#104 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-26 08:31 AM | Reply

"The emotional need for human interaction should not be discounted, but we'll likely find out that less may be more. Only time will tell."

Definitely, but I think-hope that what we're seeing is the end of limitations on life due to rigid scheduling. Think about it. If you wanted to take your kids on vacation somewhere, no problem...they could simply dial in from their location. Some people do their best work in the morning. Others hate mornings. This crisis is exposing opportunities that I think would have been previously dismissed by most people.

#105 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-26 08:34 AM | Reply

"While I admire the thought you've put into this, your solutions are unworkable and will never be actuated for they're practically impossible."

I am curious about the impossible aspects of this.

I was thinking about this too. Every combat aircraft is equipped with an oxygen regulator that hooks up to a tightly fitting mask. In an emergency, such as rapid decompression, there is a setting where you can "gang load" the system. Basically, you open your mouth and your lungs inflate. These things have been around for decades...why wouldn't they make at least a reasonable substitute for medical grade ventilators if they were not available. The whole point of the thing is to flood your lungs with pure O2. I was always told they would work magic on a hangover, but I was never dumb enough to fly after having been drinking.

#106 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-26 08:41 AM | Reply

You would have to explain to me how that would leave them more exposed than they are right now.

I already did, repeatedly. You just want to ignore it. You cannot hermetically seal anything when it regards millions of autonomous people. It's unworkable and you know it. The virus will travel through people, and non-at-risk persons will interact with at-risk persons on a continual basis. We do not have PPE to make your scenario work because it would need to be activated NOW, not in weeks or months after the virus as already spread unabated.

In which case we simply hunker down until we die.

The virus is not going to kill everyone. It will hardly kill a significant percentage of the population, but it will sicken and kill far more than our systems are able to deal with in a compact period of time. And that again will increase the death toll as others will die from non-viral issues because of their inability to receive care due to viral patients crushing the system.

Isolation IS DOING SOMETHING! Why is this escaping you? Not every problem can be answered by an action. Sometimes defense is the best offense. If we can keep people away from each other, the virus cannot be passed. And when the infected survivors are no longer contagious, these people will actively protect others from getting it by acting as virtual shields. This is the only current way to stop its spread.

#107 | Posted by tonyroma at 2020-03-26 08:45 AM | Reply

#106

Nothing wrong with innovation, and my belief is that we'll innovate ourselves out of this situation long before any mass quarantine would remotely become possible.

We know what doable actions we can take to stop the virus, first and foremost is testing and contact tracing, and then quarantining those affected. It's a far smaller number in scale. We've got empty hotel/motel rooms all over America that could be immediately put into use for quarantine purposes.

This is something we could do immediately. You seem to think that all at-risk persons know that they're at-risk. Many have no idea because our societal unhealthy lifestyles and food choices leave millions vulnerable who won't know it until they're sick, erroneously believing that they're in the low risk demographic.

We'll get through this, the goal is to minimize the amount of death and suffering due to contracting the virus. Not contracting it is the best and only deterrent guaranteed to assure continued normal individual health.

#108 | Posted by tonyroma at 2020-03-26 08:53 AM | Reply

Could we get the goopers' attention if we pointed out that 600,000 deaths is equivalent to 150,000 Benghazis?

Apparently some animals are more equal than others.

#109 | Posted by contrecoup at 2020-03-26 10:25 AM | Reply

So what do you think the US looks like six months from now if nobody is working?

#57 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

It will look just like it looks right now. Only different.

Except a lot more Americans will be dead. Mostly in Louisiana Mississippi and Florida.

Undoubtedly.

#110 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-03-26 11:55 AM | Reply

"So what do you think the US looks like six months from now if nobody is working?"

At some point, Americans will realize they are being f-ed over by the "capitalist" system.

At that point, expect blood in the streets.

#111 | Posted by contrecoup at 2020-03-26 12:50 PM | Reply

"So what do you think the US looks like six months from now if nobody is working?"

People who test positive for the coronavirus antibodies will be able to go back to work:

3.5m coronavirus test kits on way to NHS
Patients to be priority for tests that would reveal if healthcare staff are safe to go back to work
www.theguardian.com

Why a Tiny Colorado County Can Offer COVID-19 Tests to Every Resident

United Biomedical's COVID-19 test is different from those typically being run on nasal swabs collected around the country. Those tests use a technique called RT-PCR to look for the virus's genetic material in a patient's nose and throat, but United Biomedical's test requires a blood draw. It uses a different technique, called ELISA, to look for antibodies, the proteins the immune system makes to neutralize the virus. Antibody tests, also known as serological tests, don't always pick up early viral infections, but they can tell if someone has ever had a particular virus--maybe even if they were asymptomatic.

For this reason, scientists all over the world have been pushing antibody tests as a way to study the true scope of the coronavirus pandemic. If serological testing can find asymptomatic carriers of COVID-19, it can also clarify the disease's transmission and fatality rate. Testing a whole population--say, a whole county--would give epidemiologists a snapshot of everything going on in one place. "Any sort of population-based study is really interesting," says Caitlin Rivers, an epidemiologist at Johns Hopkins University. And while it's unclear how long immunity to COVID-19 lasts, she says, it could allow people who are immune to go back to their normal lives.
www.theatlantic.com

#112 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2020-03-26 01:07 PM | Reply

"The virus will travel through people, and non-at-risk persons will interact with at-risk persons on a continual basis."

No Scott...that's the whole point. You completely isolate the at-risk group from everyone else. How is that challenging? Explain it to me.

"Isolation IS DOING SOMETHING! Why is this escaping you?"

Because no one is actually isolated, even in the least. People may not be going to bars or best buy or The Gap anymore...but EVERYONE is still going to the grocery store. Touching the handle on the door, the grocery cart, the pin pad where you pay your bill.

All the lock down has done is eliminate people going to the places that are unnecessary. The necessary places as still operating business as usual.

What the current lock down did was keep people from going to places that most don't go anyway. I don't go to bars. Maybe a retail place once every now and then.

But I still go to the grocery store several times a week. And I'm probably not the only one. That's why this whole thing is nothing more than a feel good plan.

#113 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-26 01:48 PM | Reply

"At some point, Americans will realize they are being f-ed over by the "capitalist" system."

Really?

Lock down is a capitalist construct?

Enjoy your one-man revolution.

#114 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-26 01:49 PM | Reply

"So what do you think the US looks like six months from now if nobody is working?"

Like it will look in our not so distant future when automation is king.

The silver lining of this event could be preparing for that future.

Andrew Yang said, rather tongue in cheek, that had he been campaigning with his 1K a month program on pandemics rather automation he might have won.

He has the future direction either way.

#115 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-26 01:51 PM | Reply

Prolonged Shutdown Trump Opposes Estimated to Save 600,000 Lives

Trump doesn't care. He has access to the best doctors and medical attention money can buy.

Do you?

#116 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-03-26 01:54 PM | Reply

No Scott...that's the whole point. You completely isolate the at-risk group from everyone else. How is that challenging? Explain it to me.

Who will serve the quarantined group if not non at-risk people? And no matter what precautions are taken, the virus is spread by surface contact too. There's a high probability that somewhere, somehow the virus is introduced into the protected environment and then it's over for those people. And again, where is all this PPE going to come from while our hospitals cannot get enough to treat sick patients?

I'm done with this impossible scenario, though I give you an E for effort. The argument is moot.

#117 | Posted by tonyroma at 2020-03-26 01:57 PM | Reply

I'm not fully clear on what a "shutdown" would look like. Gas stations closed? Grocery stored closed? Jails emptied? No garbage collection or street cleaning? What is really meant by "shutdown"? ...And before someone say 'non-essential services', somebody needs to give a pretty god damned good definition of what that means as well.

#118 | Posted by moder8 at 2020-03-26 02:13 PM | Reply

"So what do you think the US looks like six months from now if nobody is working?"

A lot greener, with clean air and water like we've never seen, and probably the prettiest fall we've had in ages.
Though you might want to keep an eye out for mountain lions and coyotes!
#MAGA

#119 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-26 02:14 PM | Reply

- EVERYONE is still going to the grocery store

More panicky nonsense from Mad Ayn Rand Bomber.

A lot of people, including seniors, are picking up groceries outside the store location, no charge...or having them delivered for very reasonable fees either by the stores or by Amazon or by Fed Ex or UPS from meal programs.

Families are designating one person to shop and shopping less frequently in larger quantities... hence the TP shortage.

Many are ordering meals out for delivery or pickup.

But, hey, maybe MB wouldn't have to do any of those things if we just let the virus spread more.... I mean, it's mostly only killing worthless seniors, right?

#120 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-26 02:16 PM | Reply

"Who will serve the quarantined group if not non at-risk people?"

If considered, it would be relatively easy to quarantine non-infected caregivers along with those who were at risk in isolated communities.

"And no matter what precautions are taken, the virus is spread by surface contact too."

That's not exactly true. You could create self-contained isolation cells where you could almost guarantee a germ-free environment. It's done all the time in research labs and sensitive production facilities.

"There's a high probability that somewhere, somehow the virus is introduced into the protected environment and then it's over for those people."

Based on what? A can of food is delivered to an isolation cell, where it is decontaminated outside the entrapment. Decontaminated inside the entrapment, and then brought in. And those who touch the can of food never touch a patient. I'm not saying there would be a very low probability of transmission, but you'd be high to suggest that there would be a high probability.

#121 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-26 02:27 PM | Reply

"I'm done with this impossible scenario, though I give you an E for effort. The argument is moot."

Because you don't know how to address the problem. Like I said, closing bars is almost meaningless if everyone is still going to the grocery store. And I think you know I'm right...you just don't want to admit it. But I'm listening if you want to explain to me how I'm wrong.

#122 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-26 02:29 PM | Reply

#120

You're adorable Snorky.

So if we're doing all those thing, and they're effective, why not let everyone go back to work?

I'm sure Best Buy would be happy to leave your new television outside the front door. And if you asshats in the US would be a little less prude, maybe order a drive-away cocktail from a bar as well. I did it all the time in Louisiana...it may have been that state's one redeeming quality.

#123 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-26 02:32 PM | Reply

So if we're doing all those thing, and they're effective, why not let everyone go back to work?

Reductio ad absurdum.

#124 | Posted by YAV at 2020-03-26 02:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Minimizing contact is not worthless.Even if there is some contact,less is better. All or nothing is just dumb and You know it.
Bet you're not going out as much as you were.
Why do you want to put at risk people in camps? Haven't we had enough of that already?
Everyone is in this. You are not Zeus on Mt. Olympus deciding who lives and dies. However much you life as a pilot might give you that delusional worldview,you are here in the mud with the rest of us. Grow the F**k up.

#125 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-03-26 03:08 PM | Reply

"Like I said, closing bars is almost meaningless if everyone is still going to the grocery store."

No, it really isn't, because people spend hours at bars, versus minutes at the grocery store.
You should be smarter than this, with the millions taxpayers spent to educate you.

#126 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-26 03:10 PM | Reply

"No, it really isn't, because people spend hours at bars, versus minutes at the grocery store."

Really?

I spend hundreds of minutes each month at the grocery store. I spend zero minutes at a bar.

And I suspect that there are more people like me than not...and I'm a fan of booze.

#127 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-26 03:17 PM | Reply

"I spend hundreds of minutes each month at the grocery store. I spend zero minutes at a bar."

Because it's all about you!

#128 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-26 03:18 PM | Reply

"So if we're doing all those thing, and they're effective, why not let everyone go back to work?"

See Italy

Italy

Coronavirus Cases:
80,589
Deaths:
8,215
Recovered:
10,361

Italy is about the same size as California.

#129 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-03-26 03:19 PM | Reply

Why do bars even exist, if nobody goes to them, MadBomber?

#130 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-26 03:19 PM | Reply

Like I said,
You should be smarter than this, with the millions taxpayers spent to educate you.
#126 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

#131 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-26 03:21 PM | Reply

"Like I said, closing bars is almost meaningless if everyone is still going to the grocery store."

This is Trumplandia.

You are looking for meaning in a fantasyland.

#132 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-03-26 03:21 PM | Reply

130, so employees can become members of the House of Representatives. It's a prerequisite.

#133 | Posted by Petrous at 2020-03-26 03:23 PM | Reply

"Bet you're not going out as much as you were."

Honestly, I don't give a ----. I'm in a demographic where I'm only at risk unless I have some weird quirk in my immune system. The last time I got sick was in Doha, about eighteen months ago. I can't recall the last time my kids got sick. I did take my wife in to get tested for COVID today because she was showing symptoms, but nothing serious. And she's still putting in her ten mile walks, so I don't think she's dead just quite yet.

My concern is mostly for the people I work with. I don't want to infect them, because I can't be sure that they wouldn't react poorly...even though it's mostly a bunch of younger, fit, military officers and their families. Better safe than sorry.

#134 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-26 03:24 PM | Reply

"I'm in a demographic where I'm only at risk unless I have some weird quirk in my immune system."

Ah, I see it's back to being all about you, and the part where you spread your germs to someone else is the part where you say
"Honestly, I don't give a ----."

You're a disgrace to the uniform and the nation it represents.

#135 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-26 03:26 PM | Reply

Grocery store: Required for FOOD. People stick to themselves. Get what they need and get out. They leave. Plexiglas between checkout person and customer. Gloves being used. Hand sanitizer at each register. Store hours are segregated based on age.

Bars: Not required. People congregate to socialize. They imbibe fluids, cough, etc. Alcohol lowers inhibitions. Please don't make me explain that. No age group requirements/special hours.

it goes on and on - and that you would even suggest such an odd equivalence is strange.

#136 | Posted by YAV at 2020-03-26 03:27 PM | Reply

"My concern is mostly for the people I work with."

Well would you look at that!
Turns out you're not a disgrace to the uniform after all.
You just really, really want to be.

#137 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-26 03:29 PM | Reply

"Plexiglas between checkout person and customer."

This is pretty normal in the 'hood.
And for pretty much the same reason: Safety.

#138 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-26 03:29 PM | Reply

I need some fence posts for my garden. I will be transferring my potted vegetables into the gatden and I need to keep the groundhogs out.

Eventually I need a hardware visit.

#139 | Posted by Petrous at 2020-03-26 03:31 PM | Reply

" I did take my wife in to get tested for COVID today because she was showing symptoms, but nothing serious. "

So while you wait for her test to come back:
Are you going to act like you've got it,
Have you already been acting like you've got it,
Or are you going to pull a Rand Paul?

#140 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-26 03:32 PM | Reply

Wait:
Was your wife trying to take a bullet for the economy, as per your counsel?

#141 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-26 03:36 PM | Reply

- EVERYONE is still going to the grocery store
More panicky nonsense from Mad Ayn Rand Bomber.
A lot of people, including seniors, are picking up groceries outside the store location, no charge...or having them delivered for very reasonable fees either by the stores or by Amazon or by Fed Ex or UPS from meal programs.
Families are designating one person to shop and shopping less frequently in larger quantities... hence the TP shortage.
Many are ordering meals out for delivery or pickup.
But, hey, maybe MB wouldn't have to do any of those things if we just let the virus spread more.... I mean, it's mostly only killing worthless seniors, right?

#120 | POSTED BY CORKY

No response?

#142 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-26 03:46 PM | Reply

"So while you wait for her test to come back: Are you going to act like you've got it, "

As directed Myself and my family will be hunkering down until the test results come back.

My biggest fear is that we run out of vodka.

#143 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-26 04:27 PM | Reply

"Was your wife trying to take a bullet for the economy, as per your counsel?"

I don't think she did, but said bullet may already have been taken, In which case the family stays put and she consigns herself to watching every episode of "The Goldbergs" one more time.

It is a funny show.

#144 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-26 04:30 PM | Reply

LOL

Cuomo admits his decision to quarantine everyone at once was 'not the best strategy' and that he is 'working on' release of coronavirus antibody test that will allow people to go back to work
www.dailymail.co.uk

#145 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2020-03-26 04:34 PM | Reply

My biggest fear is that we run out of vodka.

I bought nine bottles of Russian Standard Gold when I couldn't find hand sanitizer.

#146 | Posted by REDIAL at 2020-03-26 04:42 PM | Reply

#145 Yeah imagine that, a public official who actually admits when they might have done things differently and learns from their experience. He should have just drawn on the coronavirus graph with a sharpie.

#147 | Posted by JOE at 2020-03-26 04:43 PM | Reply

I bought nine bottles of Russian Standard Gold when I couldn't find hand sanitizer.
#146 | POSTED BY REDIAL

You're going to have the cleanest liver in town!

#148 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-26 04:46 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

The economy doesn't mean ----- if you lack people to economy the economy.

#149 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2020-03-26 04:46 PM | Reply

#145 | POSTED BY ANDREAMACKRIS
#147 | POSTED BY JOE

Context is important:

"Cuomo said on Thursday that putting old people and young people together was not 'the best public health strategy' because it meant potentially putting the older person at risk."

Not that people shouldn't be at home, but that the structure of how that protective measure was laid out should be more nuanced. People should still not be in public.

#150 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-03-26 05:09 PM | Reply

#150 that tradeoff is explicitly modeled in the Imperial College Report, table 2:

SD Social distancing of entire population
All households reduce contact outside household, school or workplace by 75%. School contact rates unchanged, workplace contact rates reduced by 25%. Household contact rates assumed to increase by 25%.

It still ends up decreasing the overall spread throughout the land, because there's a lot more people to contact at the workplace than at home.

#151 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-26 05:32 PM | Reply

But it's incredibly selfish to demand those people and their families suffer so that an extremely at risk group can maybe live a little longer.

#28 | Posted by madbomber

If you thinksitting on a couch watching Netflix and washing your hands is 'suffering,' FCCK YOU!!

#152 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2020-03-26 05:48 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"But it's incredibly selfish to demand those people and their families suffer"

On a scale of ordering a Big Mac with extra mayo but instead you got no mayo, to Anne Frank, how much suffering has your family endured?

#153 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-26 05:54 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

To put things in better perspective: 80% of the deaths in Italy (pop 60M) are in 2 northern regioni/states with a population of 15M. New York City (8M) and the surrounding metro area with NYC (20M) will closely resemble Italy's death stats. Then the virus will spread to the OTHER 95% of the United States.

The week starting March 30th and April 6th will be so devastating in NYC (600-1500 dead DAY AFTER DAY) - all discussions of "packed churches at Easter" and "getting the country working again" will be laughed at with the comment - YOU go back to work.

On March 1st there were only than 34 deaths in all of Italy.

01809 dead March 01st to March 15th (15 days) 188 PER DAY
06356 dead March 16th to March 25th (10 days) 636 PER DAY
03000 dead last 5 days March (EST 600 PER DAY)
11165 dead in one month and no end in sight

Early April in Italy will be bad and hopefully deaths will start to slow down. Spikes for Rome and Southern Italy are still to come in the future. Italy has more beds per capita and more ICU beds per capita than the United States.

A pause of 45-60 days is the MINIMUM PERIOD FOR THE INITIAL SHUTDOWN IN THE UNITED STATES.

Listen to the CDC and the Governors. The math does not lie. Innumeracy is deadly.

#154 | Posted by clearheaded12 at 2020-03-27 01:05 AM | Reply

Tomorrow I'm updating the Xbox and PS4, and start killing some zombies and nazis.

#155 | Posted by SheepleSchism at 2020-03-27 03:22 AM | Reply

"If you thinksitting on a couch watching Netflix and washing your hands is 'suffering,' FCCK YOU!!"

AU, I believe everyone should be allowed to retract a statement like that. I get a little crazy....and angry....and desperate too. We all are. I hope your day gets better. You have always been one of the posters here who I respected highly, still do. Don't let a moment of desperation change that.

#156 | Posted by danni at 2020-03-27 09:02 AM | Reply

Today, I'm still not caring what Sheeple is doing tomorrow or any other day. Evil person. I don't know much but I do know that.

#157 | Posted by danni at 2020-03-27 09:04 AM | Reply

And that's how Capitalism works."

Are you as curious as I am to see how Cuba tackles COVID?

#92 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

We can see how the communist system handles it.

They handled it better than a capitalist system.

So is communism winning?

#158 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-03-27 11:47 AM | Reply

If you thinksitting on a couch watching Netflix and washing your hands is 'suffering,' FCCK YOU!!

#152 | POSTED BY AMERICANUNITY

I don't know about that.

How do the homeless get Netflix? And snacks? And a couch? And wash their hands?

Not everyone was well off or even remotely stable when this started.

#159 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-03-27 11:50 AM | Reply

"On a scale of ordering a Big Mac with extra mayo but instead you got no mayo, to Anne Frank, how much suffering has your family endured?"

I'll be one of the last standing...but it's not so much about me. Or you. Or anyone else who can sit around and still collect a paycheck.

I'm more concerned about those who have been told they can no longer work in their current career fields.

You don't give a ---- because you're a child of privilege. Not everyone has the benefit of Rich parents during this thing.

#160 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-27 02:39 PM | Reply

#160 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

The concept of self-sacrifice is not lost upon the working class; sorry to burst your bubble.

This is a time to consider what's best for the heard. Everyone is at risk. Keeping people at home and disrupting American's status quo way of life is necessary.

#161 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-03-27 02:43 PM | Reply

*hurd

#162 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-03-27 02:44 PM | Reply

----!

*herd

#163 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-03-27 04:14 PM | Reply

You don't give a ---- because you're a child of privilege. Not everyone has the benefit of Rich parents during this thing.
#160 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Your adoptive parent Uncle Sam is the richest parent in town, kid.

#164 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-27 08:19 PM | Reply

"Everyone is at risk."

No, Einstein, everyone is not at risk. In fact most are probably less at risk with regards to COVID than other diseases.

Did we ever shut the country down out of fear of the common cold? How about Chicken Pox? How about anything?

#165 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-28 11:21 AM | Reply

"Your adoptive parent Uncle Sam is the richest parent in town, kid."

Do Mummy and Daddy make you do anything for your money, or is it just there?

#166 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-28 11:21 AM | Reply

No, Einstein, everyone is not at risk.

Everyone is at risk. That is a fact.
The risk is based on location and underlying conditions, but every single person is considered at risk. There is no vaccine and no treatment for this.

Chickenpox fatality rate is 0.003%
The flu fatality rate is 0.13% (average for the past 10 years for the U.S.)
The common cold doesn't even register.

The least at risk group for COVID-19 still has a mortality rate 4 times that of the flu.

#167 | Posted by YAV at 2020-03-28 11:32 AM | Reply

"everyone is not at risk. "

Only if you re-define "risk" to suit your needs.

#168 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-03-28 11:38 AM | Reply

I suppose I should have put the mortality rate for COVID-19 in there, too, and explain that I was rebutting your mendacious false equivalences. COVID-19 mortality rate for the U.S. is 1.6% today, and 4.7% world-wide. For comparison to Chicken Pox, for instance...

#169 | Posted by YAV at 2020-03-28 11:45 AM | Reply

Did we ever shut the country down out of fear of the common cold? How about Chicken Pox? How about anything?

#165 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Umm yes.

The last pandemic of this magnitude was the 1918 "Spanish flu"

The economy was severely affected then too. A lot of it was shut down.

Lots of quarantining going on then too.

Maybe you should try reading history.

www.bloomberg.com

We fully recovered from that pandemic. We will fully recover from this one too.

#170 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-03-28 11:59 AM | Reply

"Did we ever shut the country down out of fear of the common cold?"

So you think a disease that kills 1 in 50, we should just say "Oh well."

#171 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-28 12:05 PM | Reply

"The least at risk group for COVID-19 still has a mortality rate 4 times that of the flu."

Cool...but not really relevant. At least not to me, and probably lots of others.

To me, there's little different in a 1/1,000,000 chance of something happening, or 1/1,000,000,000. Even though at 1/1,000,000 the odds of any event happening is 1000 times greater than if it were 1/1,000,000.

If you're under 40, the odds of you dying from COVID are 1/500...if you get infected. Maybe you're a Nervous Nellie...a bit of a hypochondriac...but I would take those odds in a heartbeat.

#172 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-28 12:11 PM | Reply

"Only if you re-define "risk" to suit your needs."

The flu always sucks. But I'm always at risk. And I've never quarantined myself out of fear of the flu before. The odds that I would die from this thing are 1/250. In fact they're far less than that because I'm a bit of a gym rat and stay pretty healthy. But for my age group the odds of death are 1/250.

#173 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-28 12:13 PM | Reply

So you never get the flu shot?

#174 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-28 12:15 PM | Reply

"To me, there's little different in a 1/1,000,000 chance of something happening, or 1/1,000,000,000."

To the whole nation?

Creepy.

#175 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-28 12:16 PM | Reply

"The odds that I would die from this thing are 1/250."

Let's say all 1.2 million active duty military are like you.

Okay for 4,800 of them to die, then?

We shouldn't try to stop it?

#176 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-28 12:19 PM | Reply

"Let's say all 1.2 million active duty military are like you."

They're not like me. I'm old.

At worst, they're risk rate is 1/500. Most likely it is far lower, as military members are generally screened for underlying conditions that would preclude them from being able to do their jobs. So far there have been no deaths of active duty military personnel.

Most will be at higher risk because of whatever it is they do in the military.

Should we stop having them do those jobs that might be dangerous?

If you're an aviator, I'd bet you're at greater risk of dying while flying than you are of catching COVID. Of course we won't know that until a combat aviator dies of COVID...it has yet to happen.

#177 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-03-28 12:33 PM | Reply

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