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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Monday, March 30, 2020

Millions of people across the world tuned into online church services on Sunday as their usual places of worship were closed, but in some places clerics insisted on their doors remaining open. ... Dozens of parishioners, many of them elderly, crowded into Kazan Cathedral in St Petersburg to receive communion. Earlier this month, the cathedral came under fire for continuing to exhibit a relic of John the Baptist despite fears that visitors kissing the exhibit could hasten the spread of coronavirus. In virus-hit Louisiana, hundreds of worshippers attended services on Sunday, flouting a ban on large gatherings. An estimated 500 people of all ages filed inside the Life Tabernacle church in Central, a city of nearly 29,000 outside Baton Rouge

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Pray the virus away.

That should do it! Someone has to do it!

Thank you for your service. (In advance since some of you won't make it)

#1 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-03-30 12:16 PM | Reply

The pastor of a megachurch in Louisiana, who held services like normal yesterday, stated that "The virus is politically motivated" and he said that his parishioners are therefore immune to its effects since they don't allow politics to influence their beliefs. Does he honestly believe that the virus will kill a liberal before a conservative? Or in his case, an atheist before a Christian?

OCU

#2 | Posted by OCUser at 2020-03-30 12:26 PM | Reply

Some churches are more concerned with appearing not to have faith than protecting their congregations from this pandemic; they have left their brains at the door of the church.

Nowhere in the bible are people told to be intentionally stupid, much less to put themselves and others at intentional risk of life "to be seen of men" as faithful. If they actually believed there is a God, they would believe that God knew their hearts without them having to demonstrate their faith to other people.

#3 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 12:29 PM | Reply

The pastor of a megachurch in Louisiana, who held services like normal yesterday, stated that "The virus is politically motivated"

Wow. Just wow. So this virus has an ideology?

Who knew? I guess doG told them.

#4 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-03-30 12:33 PM | Reply

Because church relies on the same things that trump relies on for success - gullible morons who don't believe in science.

#5 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2020-03-30 12:35 PM | Reply

#5 They also both rely on people who do not think for themselves but will blindly follow authority. In their book, the Bible, God is the highest authority known to man. According to many Christian religious leaders, including Trump's pastor in the WH, God picked Trump to be president. Ergo, one should follow Trump's advice as he is God's chosen leader for the US.

#6 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2020-03-30 12:39 PM | Reply

"The virus is politically motivated"

Isn't engaging in politics supposed to strip churches of their tax-exempt status? Not that it will ever happen.

We've really given these Death Cults far too wide a berth.
And now we are all paying the price.

#7 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 12:45 PM | Reply

Sounds to me that churches are more concerned with their EBITDA line than people's wellbeing.

#8 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2020-03-30 12:50 PM | Reply

#5

Broad brushes for simple minds. Many of the greatest minds in history, and now, believe in God... despite the fact that there are a lot of morons out there who get all the publicity.

Most of them have never read people like Reinhold Niebuhr or even CS Lewis, much less the bible itself.

#9 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 12:50 PM | Reply

"Many of the greatest minds in history, and now, believe in God"

Serious question, Corky:
Do you think some of the greatest minds in history are attending megachurches during the coronavirus pandemic?

#10 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 12:52 PM | Reply

"I think that religion stops people from thinking. I think it justifies crazies. I think flying planes into a building was a faith-based initiative."

Bill Maher

#11 | Posted by SomebodyElse at 2020-03-30 12:52 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

If I attended a church that was ignoring the warnings and putting its followers in lethal jeopardy by having services, I'd quit and never come back.

#12 | Posted by rcade at 2020-03-30 12:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#10

Considering what I've already posted just on this thread, I have to hope that's not really a serious question.

#13 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 12:56 PM | Reply

Okay, but that gives rise to a more existentially interesting question, Corky:
#13 so do you even consider yourself one of "them?"

#14 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 01:03 PM | Reply

"I think flying planes into a building was a faith-based initiative."

Someone needs to tell Bill Maher don't be a cutie pie.
9/11 was at least as much economically motivated as religiously motivated.
They spent $500,000 to get us to spend $4,000,000,000,000.
Whatever victory we had can only be considered Pyrrhic, from an economist's point of view.

#15 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 01:06 PM | Reply

- one of "them?"

Considering what I've already posted just on this thread, I have to hope that's not really a serious question.

Or if you mean greatest minds in history, well, not compared to Rogers.

#16 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 01:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

My wife and I attend Mass every Sunday, the last two weeks via Facebook Live, linked using Apple TV to the big screen in our family room.

After the morning Mass, we then 'attended' services from a small Bible church in Washington state where my wife's nephew is the pastor.

OCU

#17 | Posted by OCUser at 2020-03-30 01:25 PM | Reply

"Considering what I've already posted just on this thread, I have to hope that's not really a serious question."

I'm being completely serious.

You're Christian. They're Christian. Same animal?

#18 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 01:26 PM | Reply

#18

You're a scientist. They're scientists. Same animal?

Your'e an agnostic. They're agnostic. Same animal?

That doesn't sound like a real serious question... particularly considering what I've posted about the differences.

#19 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 01:35 PM | Reply

OCU

Our church is fortunate enough to have a world-wide audience with live services broadcast over the internet on the website, on radio, short-wave, and various TV stations, and 24 hour recorded content... so closing the church building for services hasn't been as big a problem as it is for a lot of churches that worry about their congregations not having services or support. Hopefully they can adapt and podcast or something; most prolly have websites.

#20 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 01:42 PM | Reply

- well, not compared to Rogers.

#16 | POSTED BY CORKY AT 2020-03-30 01:06 PM | FLAG: | NEWSWORTHY by RCADE

rofl!!

#21 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 01:45 PM | Reply

"That doesn't sound like a real serious question"

I'm trying to find out where the limits of "group inclusion" go for Christians.
One of the reasons I've never been able to take Christianity or most any religion seriously is how can you be divided if you're the same thing?
Jerry Fallwell and Jimmy Carter are polar opposites. Yet they're both Christian.

I get that oil and water don't mix, but here we're saying oil and oil don't mix.
I don't get it.

#22 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 01:45 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

- how can you be divided if you're the same thing?

We are all Americans, are we all the same thing?

Substitute Americans with just about anything you like, humans, agnostics, scientists, poets, soldiers, liberals, conservatives.... I don't get how this is a serious question.

#23 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 01:52 PM | Reply

I don't know any scientists with whom I do not share a core set of beliefs about what science is and what science can tell us.

My sister, the Born-Again Christian, has essentially no Christian values in common with Joel Osteen.

#24 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 02:00 PM | Reply

But if Christianity is just, like, your opinion, man, then that's another reason it's all just a sham. Yours, theirs, everybody's.

#25 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 02:02 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Then you must understand already that even those with a core set of beliefs, like scientists, can differ vastly in what they believe about certain aspects of science.

Your sister and, presumably, Osteen, do share at least a few core beliefs.

And the scientists in the world that are currently trying to clone humans, or those that created nuclear weapons, also share a core set of scientific beliefs with you.

#26 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 02:06 PM | Reply

But if agnosticism or atheism is just, like, your opinion, man, then that's another reason it's all just a sham. Yours, theirs, everybody's.

- a sham

The ad hominem always seems to start when the defensiveness starts.

#27 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 02:07 PM | Reply

Corky, my point is:
Christians can have differing opinions about literally anything.
Scientists aren't in a position to say things like "evolution just isn't supported by our beliefs."

It reminds me of the psychiatrist who had three patients, all who believed they were Napoleon Bonaparte.
So he put them all in the same room, to discuss their situation.
At the end, they all felt they were still Napoleon Bonaparte, and the other two were fakers.

Get it?

#28 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 02:20 PM | Reply

- Scientists aren't in a position to say things like "evolution just isn't supported by our beliefs."

"Two atheists - John Gray and Alain de Botton - and two agnostics - Nassim Nicholas Taleb and I - meet for dinner at a Greek restaurant in Bayswater, London. The talk is genial, friendly and then, suddenly, intense when neo-atheism comes up. Three of us, including both atheists, have suffered abuse at the hands of this cult. Only Taleb seems to have escaped unscathed and this, we conclude, must be because he can do maths and people are afraid of maths."

"There is this strange supposition," says the American philosopher Jerry Fodor, "that if you're a Darwinian you have to be an atheist. In my case, I'm an anti-Darwinian and I'm an atheist. But people are so incoherent on these issues that it's hard for me to figure out what is driving them."

www.newstatesman.com

Reading selected just for for you.

- Get it?

Yes, you believe your opinion is fact, and anyone and everyone who disagrees is subject to ridicule. Good luck with that.

#29 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 02:30 PM | Reply

SNOOFY

All conventional religions are subjective, in my opinion. And beliefs are usually self-serving.

I don't worry about it too much. The 10 Commandments are clear, simple and should be enough for anybody to follow.

#30 | Posted by Twinpac at 2020-03-30 02:33 PM | Reply

Having fun, Corky? LOL

#31 | Posted by eberly at 2020-03-30 02:34 PM | Reply

"There is this strange supposition," says the American philosopher Jerry Fodor, "that if you're a Darwinian you have to be an atheist."

I don't suffer from that problem.
It's perfectly fine to be a scientist and a Christian.
These are orthogonal lines of inquiry. They operate independently of one another.

#32 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 02:34 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"All conventional religions are subjective, in my opinion"

Thank you, Twinpac.
This is the point I was making.
It's kind of like when JeffJ says "if everything is racist, then nothing is racist."
Science doesn't put up with that kind of nonsense.

#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 02:35 PM | Reply

"The 10 Commandments are clear, simple and should be enough for anybody to follow."

Yet even there, we get a schism:

Is it
Thou Shalt Not Kill
or
Thou Shalt Not Murder

#34 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 02:36 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

- It's perfectly fine to be a scientist and a Christian.

Fine scientists who believe in "scams"? Funny stuff.

- Science doesn't put up with that kind of nonsense.

Fortunately, science puts up with all kinds if ideas that many of it's adherents consider nonsense.... like there being an infinite number of Snoofys in an infinite number of universes, newly created with each decision he makes. God forbid, lol.

- The 10 Commandments are clear, simple and should be enough for anybody to follow.

See, here's the thing. There are lots of opinions and theories in religion, much as there are in science or any other endeavor, but that particular one, to a Christian who has actually studied the material, is laughable. In the material, the Law and the Commandments are displaced by the Messiah, as even a cursory reading of Paul informs. But, as with science, there are those who have their own ideas.

Traditional religions have displaced much of what that original material actually says, so it's not difficult for agnostics to think there are no actual basic tenants as there are with science. They would be mistaken.

#35 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 02:49 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

- we get a schism:

Not a schism, a failed translation from old Hebrew to English. We have a lot more science than they had in the 16th century to help make better translations. The original always was murder.

#36 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 02:51 PM | Reply

Fine scientists who believe in "scams"? Funny stuff.

I have never once called Christianity a scam.
Shame on you.

#37 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 02:51 PM | Reply

Oh, yeah, sorry. You said "sham".

A distinction with a yuge difference of intent, one s'poses.

#38 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 02:54 PM | Reply

At least 43 suspected of having Covid-19 from Pentecostal Church in Illinois.
The service came after Illinois had already issued a warning about the risk of spread in public gatherings and just days before the state issued a stay at home order.

www.journal-topics.com

#39 | Posted by johnny_hotsauce at 2020-03-30 03:33 PM | Reply

Corky, perhaps the part where I said these belief systems aren't at odds with one another, and they're not in competition with one another.

So I'll say it again.
Religion and science aren't at odds with one another, since they take different approaches towards answering the questions of life's unknowns.

Much like the 100m dash is not at odds with NASCAR, even though they're both attempts to be the fastest. Aside from that they have nothing in common.

That being said, any belief system that can accommodate any and all belief is a sham, in terms of actually representing any sort of system. Unless of course it is forthright about being that way, like Unitarians are. At least they're honest and upfront about it.

Lots of people believe things that aren't true; it's a necessary strategy for survival and even success.
You don't get to run in the 100m finals against Usain Bolt by thinking you won't win... even though you won't win.

#40 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 03:44 PM | Reply

Thou Shalt Not Kill
or
Thou Shalt Not Murder

#34 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Depends on the color of your skin and clothing choices (i.e. uniform).

And whether you have your own flag.

#41 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-03-30 03:45 PM | Reply

#41 no need to be so lowbrow.
Thomas Aquinas clearly went with the "murder" interpretation when he formulated the Christian rationale for a Just War.
Corky, thoughts? "Just War" sound legit to you, as a Christian?

#42 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 03:49 PM | Reply

- any belief system that can accommodate any and all belief is a sham

As I noted above, Traditional religions have displaced much of what that original material actually says, so it's not difficult for agnostics to think there are no actual basic tenants as there are with science. They would be mistaken.

Christianity as described in the ancient manuscripts does not "accommodate any and all belief", far from it. But as with science, people will cling to their traditions, beliefs, and biases whether they adhere to those tenants or not. Even things like human cloning, nukes, and the infinite multiverse.

- they take different approaches towards answering the questions of life's unknowns.

Religion has the advantage of taking the knowledge and techniques of science into both use and consideration. Personally, having actually studied the ancient texts, I have more frequently found science to be in agreement with the texts than not.

As have others:

www.huffpost.com

www.huffpost.com

#43 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 04:08 PM | Reply

Christianity as described in the ancient manuscripts does not "accommodate any and all belief", far from it.

^
The ancient manuscripts don't enter into it.
You might as well be appealing to the ancient manuscripts of Karl Marx to say the USSR wasn't really Communism.

#44 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 04:11 PM | Reply

#42 |

Perhaps you are thinking of Augustine, who is associated with Just War as much as Aquinus. Or Confucius or the Mahabharata or Aristotle.

All Christians, right?

en.wikipedia.org

#45 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 04:13 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#45 Good call. In my defense, "You Christians all look the same to me." :)

Aquinas was the one who decided when the soul goes into the fetus.

#46 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 04:15 PM | Reply

- The ancient manuscripts don't enter into it.

You sound a bit desperate here... original Christian manuscripts don't enter into Christianity?

Well, among rwingers I might tend to agree, but they were not always the majority of Christians here, and may not be again. Liberal theology is something someone who only knows what they think they know about Christianity from rwing televangelists might want to study.

#47 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 04:17 PM | Reply

- Aquinas was the one who decided when the soul goes into the fetus.

Much like all cosmologists are fans of all of Stephen Hawkings' theories?

Not so much.

#48 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 04:19 PM | Reply

"original Christian manuscripts don't enter into Christianity?"

You'r the one who said much of what passes for Christianity today is not supported by Scripture.
You're going to tell me Joel Osteen isn't actually a Christian, then?
The USSR wasn't real Communism?

#49 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 04:19 PM | Reply

When does The Bible say the soul enters the fetus, Corky?
Or is that unanswered by Scripture?

#50 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 04:21 PM | Reply

#49

Osteen knows about as much about the Christianity found in the texts as you do.... and yes, the USSR. Stalin's collectivism, was a failed attempt at communism, much like modern conservative/political theology is a failed attempt at Christianity.

#51 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 04:24 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#50

When, to the second, did the BB occur, Snoofers? Or is that unanswered by science?

Aristotle believed ensoulment occurred at 40 days (male embryos) or 90 days (female embryos).

As a fellow scientist, what's your opinion on that?

#52 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 04:28 PM | Reply

"Through the Latin translations of Averroes's (1126"1198) work, beginning in the 12th century, the legacy of Aristotle was recovered in the West.

Christian philosophers such as Thomas Aquinas (1224"1274) adapted largely to his views[1][5][24][25][26] and because they believed that the early embryo did not have a human soul, they did not necessarily see early abortion as murder, although they condemned it nonetheless."

en.wikipedia.org

#53 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 04:30 PM | Reply

The soul enters the body at first breath.

www.thechristianleftblog.org/blog-home/the-bible-tells-us-when-a-fetus-becomes-a-living-being

#54 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2020-03-30 04:47 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"When, to the second, did the BB occur, Snoofers? Or is that unanswered by science?"

The accurate answer is right around 13.7 billion years ago.
You're asking for precision, which is a different thing.

This dichotomy of accuracy and precision is pervasive throughout all of science.
Nobody doesn't agree with it.

#55 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 04:58 PM | Reply

Aristotle believed ensoulment occurred at 40 days (male embryos) or 90 days (female embryos).
As a fellow scientist, what's your opinion on that?
#52 | POSTED BY CORKY

My opinion is there's scant evidence that the soul exists, so arguing when it manifests is something of a Fool's Errand.

Aristotle, notably, believed we could understand things simply by thinking about them enough.
Modern science does not believe that. Understanding is advanced with thought, but experimentation is a necessary component too. That component is called empiricism.

#56 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 05:01 PM | Reply

"The soul enters the body at first breath."

That's one way of looking at it, Laura.

Another way is G-d has known your eternal soul since before you were even conceived.
Psalm 139:13

For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

#57 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 05:11 PM | Reply

I swear this is like Jonestown with virus rather than Kool-Aid. Every family who loses a loved one because of the irresponsible behavior of the church and pastor should sue them into poverty!

#58 | Posted by _Gunslinger_ at 2020-03-30 05:19 PM | Reply

They have the god given right to spread the plague.

#59 | Posted by MrSilenceDogood at 2020-03-30 05:52 PM | Reply

apnews.com

#60 | Posted by drivelikejehu at 2020-03-30 08:02 PM | Reply

Florida pastor arrested.
They practice social distancing, disinfected the church, gave everyone hand sanitizer and there's no evidence that they passed the virus on to anyone.

#61 | Posted by drivelikejehu at 2020-03-30 08:03 PM | Reply

- My opinion

Ah... now we're getting somewhere!

#62 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-30 09:09 PM | Reply

One dead, dozens sick after Illinois church revival service, many confirmed with coronavirus

At least one person has died, and 43 people have fallen ill at an Illinois Pentecostal church, with at least 10 testing positive for coronavirus so far.

www.christiantoday.com

#63 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2020-03-30 10:42 PM | Reply

#63
Look at the date on your headline:
Fri 27 Mar 2020 22:13 GMT
www.christiantoday.com

THEY KNEW

#64 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 10:47 PM | Reply

Date of article is not the same as the date of the revival:

Senior Pastor Anthony LoCascio's wife, Layna, wrote on social media this week that at least 43 of the 80 church members who attended the 15 March revival service had fallen ill.

The church has said that the revival gathering had taken place just days before the state governor had issued a stay at home order. Prior to the service, state officials had only restricted larger public events of 1,000 or more, and for private gatherings to be less than 250.

#65 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2020-03-30 10:57 PM | Reply

Another way is G-d has known your eternal soul since before you were even conceived.
Psalm 139:13

That is not, IMHO, applicable to humanity nor was it intended to be. That is a very specific verse that has specific prophetic meaning.
Context.

It is misused by pro-"life" people all too much.

#66 | Posted by YAV at 2020-03-30 11:05 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#66 I agree, and I agree.
But then I'm not a Christian.

#67 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-03-30 11:32 PM | Reply

From what I have read Jesus was opposed to congregating for prayer, essentially stating it should be practiced alone. Conservative churches are not places of peaceful worship but rather indoctrination of cruel ideology, bigotry and hatred.

#68 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-03-31 02:31 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

As long as they stay amongst their own
(right of center wingnuts) let them!
Depopulate the Nutters I say! If they
want to do it to themselves? Who am I to
argue w efficiency... ;-D Now, if they
want to spread God's Love (err disease) on
my lawn? Time to deploy the
'Shotgun of Defiance'... Parishioners,
please consult the 'Book of Armaments',
Chapter 3, verses 2-6... :-D

#69 | Posted by earthmuse at 2020-03-31 09:51 AM | Reply

'Shotgun of Defiance'

Is that like the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch?

#70 | Posted by REDIAL at 2020-03-31 10:00 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

I suppose Gawd will sort it out.

#71 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2020-03-31 10:25 AM | Reply

'Shotgun of Defiance'

Is that like the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch?

#70 | POSTED BY REDIAL

Sounds like some great weaponry!

At what level do I get them? Do I have to do a special quest?

#72 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-03-31 10:37 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#68

exactly

#73 | Posted by Corky at 2020-03-31 02:18 PM | Reply

All they need are a few snake handlers.

www.youtube.com

#74 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2020-03-31 06:57 PM | Reply

like scientists, can differ vastly in what they believe about certain aspects of science
#26 | POSTED BY CORKY AT 2020-03-30 02:06 PM | REPLY | FLAG:MMM NO

What makes science science is provability through repeated demonstration. Like when you combine a + b you always get c and that is always true when you combine a + b.

Science is about results you can count on because they are always true... that is what makes it so popular.

It's about finding what is always true and using it.

#75 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2020-04-01 12:29 AM | Reply

As soon as we have bulletproof testing for the coronavirus that takes 5 minutes or less we can consider letting these idiots congregate with the knowledge that they won't be welcomed back into civilized society if they are ever found to be carriers.

#76 | Posted by Tor at 2020-04-01 03:29 AM | Reply

- snake handlers.

That reference in Mark is a latter addition, not in the original... unfortunately, the American South is prone to 500 year old translations.

- It's about finding what is always true and using it.

About every other traditional saying of popular wisdom comes from one source... I won't mention what that popular source is.

Also, science and the bible have more in common than not... see the links in #43.

Unfortunately, the lessons of those ancient writings have been abused and misused by time and tradition. Not unlike how science has also been used and abused in some of the worst events in man's history, including Nazi Germany.

#77 | Posted by Corky at 2020-04-01 02:49 PM | Reply

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