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Friday, May 01, 2020

Social scientists predicted that belief in the supernatural would drift away as modern science advanced. They were wrong.

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In 1966, just over 50 years ago, the distinguished Canadian-born anthropologist Anthony Wallace confidently predicted the global demise of religion at the hands of an advancing science: belief in supernatural powers is doomed to die out, all over the world, as a result of the increasing adequacy and diffusion of scientific knowledge'. Wallace's vision was not exceptional.

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In Europe religion is on the ropes among the native born. The Islamists are obviously still religious but not the majority of the Christians.
Americans are also more slowly becoming areligious.
This is a good thing. The less religion the better!! It's a superstition.

#1 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-04-29 09:36 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

... Social scientists predicted ...

Oh please.

What you cite is not what "social scientists" have predicted, it is what individual social scientists have proffered.

A big red flag is raised in my mind when someone tries to attribute to a large group that which is held by a minor subset of that group.

In other words, you need to try harder. :)

#2 | Posted by LampLighter at 2020-04-29 09:41 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

"The percentage of atheists in the US in 2017 was at an all-time high (if high' is the right word) of around 3 per cent."

Me: They may just be socially distanced.

"The US is arguably the most scientifically and technologically advanced society in the world, and yet at the same time the most religious of Western societies.

As the British sociologist David Martin concluded in The Future of Christianity (2011): There is no consistent relation between the degree of scientific advance and a reduced profile of religious influence, belief and practice.'

Me: I have usually found science to be more verifying than refuting of observation.

www.huffpost.com

"In brief, global secularisation is not inevitable and, when it does happen, it is not caused by science. Further, when the attempt is made to use science to advance secularism, the results can damage science.

The thesis that science causes secularisation' simply fails the empirical test, and enlisting science as an instrument of secularisation turns out to be poor strategy. The science and secularism pairing is so awkward that it raises the question: why did anyone think otherwise?"

Me: Why indeed?

www.newstatesman.com

"Today, people are less confident that history moves through a series of set stages toward a single destination. Nor, despite its popular persistence, do most historians of science support the idea of an enduring conflict between science and religion.

Renowned collisions, such as the Galileo affair, turned on politics and personalities, not just science and religion. Darwin had significant religious supporters and scientific detractors, as well as vice versa. Many other alleged instances of science-religion conflict have now been exposed as pure inventions. In fact, contrary to conflict, the historical norm has more often been one of mutual support between science and religion.

In its formative years in the 17th century, modern science relied on religious legitimation. During the 18th and 19th centuries, natural theology helped to popularise science.

The conflict model of science and religion offered a mistaken view of the past and, when combined with expectations of secularisation, led to a flawed vision of the future. Secularisation theory failed at both description and prediction.

The real question is why we continue to encounter proponents of science-religion conflict. Many are prominent scientists. It would be superfluous to rehearse Richard Dawkins's musings on this topic, but he is by no means a solitary voice. Stephen Hawking thinks that science will win because it works'; Sam Harris has declared that science must destroy religion'; Stephen Weinberg thinks that science has weakened religious certitude; Colin Blakemore predicts that science will eventually make religion unnecessary. Historical evidence simply does not support such contentions. Indeed, it suggests that they are misguided."

Me: Bias confirmation horny!

#3 | Posted by Corky at 2020-04-29 09:55 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"So why do they persist? The answers are political. Leaving aside any lingering fondness for quaint 19th-century understandings of history, we must look to the fear of Islamic fundamentalism, exasperation with creationism, an aversion to alliances between the religious Right and climate-change denial, and worries about the erosion of scientific authority.

'While we might be sympathetic to these concerns, there is no disguising the fact that they arise out of an unhelpful intrusion of normative commitments into the discussion. Wishful thinking " hoping that science will vanquish religion " is no substitute for a sober assessment of present realities. Continuing with this advocacy is likely to have an effect opposite to that intended.

Religion is not going away any time soon, and science will not destroy it. If anything, it is science that is subject to increasing threats to its authority and social legitimacy. Given this, science needs all the friends it can get.

Its advocates would be well advised to stop fabricating an enemy out of religion, or insisting that the only path to a secure future lies in a marriage of science and secularism."

Peter Harrison is an Australian Laureate Fellow and director of the Institute for Advanced Studies in the Humanities at the University of Queensland. He is the author of The Territories of Science and Religion (2015), and the editor of Narratives of Secularization (2017). His latest book is Science without God: Rethinking the History of Scientific Naturalism (2019), co-edited with Jon Roberts.

Me: Wonder if he's single?

(believe it or not there is a lot more to the article)

#4 | Posted by Corky at 2020-04-29 09:56 PM | Reply

@#3,4

Whoa, Ms Corky (or is it Mr Corky?)...

You have posted more informative, persuasive information in those two comments than I have read in books on the topic.

thx.

#5 | Posted by LampLighter at 2020-04-29 10:05 PM | Reply

Secularization theory

en.wikipedia.org

failures

www.google.com

#6 | Posted by Corky at 2020-04-29 10:06 PM | Reply

#5

don't tell Laura!

I was just quoting the guy. But the google link has some scholarly links to the failure of secularization theory of which he speaks.

As a note, one of the Fathers of science, Issac Newton, wrote much more on religion than he ever did on science.

Also, the Huffpo link points out that those old Hebrew writers were really lucky scientifically in their ordering of events.

#7 | Posted by Corky at 2020-04-29 10:10 PM | Reply

People are simple. Little children afraid of the dark. The only country that truly embraces athiesm is China. That's one good reason that they are the future. Religion is the past,mostly the intolerant, murdering, calls everything Heresy, bad old past.
Everything bad In History has a religious base with only a few exceptions.

About the only good thing to come from religion is some church music that is truly Awesome.

All the rest is Crappola.

#8 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-04-29 10:15 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#8

One of the longest bits of argument-free caricature ever posted here. Congrats, I guess.

#9 | Posted by Corky at 2020-04-29 10:17 PM | Reply

Caricature, how so? Religion has no basis in fact. It is superstition masquerading as knowledge. Simple minds are drawn to the easy "answers" it seems to give.

As for being argument free? What are your arguments FOR religion that don't involve some level of blind Faith?
Huh?

#10 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-04-29 10:22 PM | Reply

@#7 ... one of the Fathers of science, Issac Newton, wrote much more on religion than he ever did on science. ...

Lemme see what I find ...

As the contempt of the religion of a country by ridiculing any of its ceremonies, or affronting its ministers or votaries, has ever been deeply resented, you are to be particularly careful to restrain every officer from such imprudence and folly, and to punish every instance of it. On the other hand, as far as lies in your power, you are to protect and support the free exercise of religion of the country, and the undisturbed enjoyment of the rights of conscience in religious matters, with your utmost influence and authority.
---George Washington

True friendship is a plant of slow growth, and must undergo and withstand the shocks of adversity before it is entitled to the appellation.
- George Washington, 1783

OK maybe I added one more quote than intended.. :)


#11 | Posted by LampLighter at 2020-04-29 10:35 PM | Reply

Evangelist wholly support Trump.

The old gray mare, she ain't what she used to be... at the least.

#12 | Posted by memyselfini at 2020-04-29 10:36 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

It's about damn time we had a good God Wars thread. I really miss them.

Meanwhile, what you jerks done to help the site?

#13 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2020-04-29 11:05 PM | Reply

#12 | Posted by memyselfini

"...Trump..."

drinks....

#14 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2020-04-29 11:12 PM | Reply

U.S. Church Membership Down Sharply in Past Two Decades news.gallup.com
Gallup, April 18, 2019

Half of Americans are church members, down from 70% in 1999
Most of the decline attributable to increase in percentage with no religion
Membership has fallen nine points among those who are religious

#15 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 12:21 AM | Reply

Y'all remember how big Bill Clinton's Bible was?

Gimme that old time religion!

#16 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 12:22 AM | Reply

The sooner it's zero. The better off we all will be. ISIS is religion, the inquisition was religion, the Taliban are religion. The Aztec human sacrifices were religion. The crusades were religion.
The "troubles"in Britain are religion.
Religion is a holdover from the primitive.
It really should be obsolete among all truly thinking people.

The Trumphumpers who think that fool is infallible are mostly Evangelicals.
Dumbest people alive.

#17 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-04-30 12:41 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Religion is so trivial. I don't want to judge people for their faith or beliefs or whatever. Anecdotally, I know a few people who turned their life around because they found Christ. But come on, Jesus is going to shield you from the coronavirus? If anything, this is Old Testament and all we're all witnessing a purge.

#18 | Posted by horstngraben at 2020-04-30 12:45 AM | Reply

"The sooner it's zero. The better off we all will be."

I used to think that way, when I was an edgy teenager.
Now I think if more people followed the teachings of Jesus, we wouldn't be in this mess.

#19 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 01:03 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Secular humanists are as ethical as Christians or anyone else. Religion is not a prerequisite for morality,in fact it creates divisions where they don't have to be.

Acknowledging that we don't know the reasons we exist or have full understanding of reality is the first step to full human awareness.

Religion gives a false certainty to it's believers;
They think they know the mind of "God"
Look at the Obscenity of ISIS, killers so certain of their own rectitude.
Only religion can create
such monsters.
The crusaders, the inquisition, they were Christians but equally murderous.

No more God for me. All gods are equally false.

#20 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-04-30 01:22 AM | Reply

#20 | Posted by Effeteposer

Cthulhu does not appreciate your attitude, sir.

#21 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2020-04-30 05:34 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#20 Let me start out by saying I am an atheist, and have been for a long time. I have to disagree with you on something though, you said "Only religion can create such a monster", and I just don't believe that. If religion didn't exist evil people would just find a different excuse to do evil deeds.

#22 | Posted by schmanch at 2020-04-30 08:58 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

- EFFETEPOSER

www.newstatesman.com

#23 | Posted by Corky at 2020-04-30 10:14 AM | Reply

- down from 70%

Not bad compared to 3 percent.

But then, rwing theocrats have werked hard to accomplish those losses.

- Evangelist wholly support Trump.
The old gray mare, she ain't what she used to be... at the least.

THIS is much of the point; the last few generations of Americans only know what they think they know about religion from what they have seen from the squeaky wheel rwing traditionalists and theocrats through their tv evangelists. These are the self=righteous hypocrites that Jesus castigated so thoroughly.

Prior generations were exposed to both Catholic social gospel, and more importantly in this country, the influence of socially conscious progressives like
Reinhold Niebuhr.

"Niebuhr's contributions to political philosophy include utilizing the resources of theology to argue for political realism. His work has also significantly influenced international relations theory, leading many scholars to move away from idealism and embrace realism.[32]

A large number of scholars, including political scientists, political historians, and theologians, have noted his influence on their thinking. Aside from academics, activists such as Myles Horton and Martin Luther King Jr., numerous politicians that include Hillary Clinton, Hubert Humphrey, Dean Acheson, James Comey, Madeleine Albright, and John McCain, as well as former US Presidents Barack Obama[33] and Jimmy Carter;[34] have also cited his influence on their thought.[26][35][36][37]

Recent years have seen a renewed interest in Niebuhr's work, in part because of Obama's stated admiration for Niebuhr.[38] In 2017, PBS released a documentary on Niebuhr, titled An American Conscience: The Reinhold Niebuhr Story".

en.wikipedia.org

"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary."

"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."

"Forgiveness is the final form of love."

"Change is the essence of life; be willing to surrender what you are for what you could become."

"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan value and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism. "

"Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith but in doubt. It is when we are unsure that we are doubly sure."

"Self-righteousness is the inevitable fruit of simple moral judgments."

"There is no deeper pathos in the spiritual life of man than the cruelty of righteous people. If any one idea dominates the teachings of Jesus, it is his opposition to the self-righteousness of the righteous."

"When economic power desires to be left alone it uses the philosophy of laissez faire to discourage political restraint upon economic freedom. When it wants to make use of the police power of the state to subdue rebellions and discontent in the ranks of its helots, it justifies the use of political coercion and the resulting suppression of liberties by insisting that peace is more precious than freedom and that its only desire is social peace."

- Reinhold Niebuhr

www.goodreads.com

helot
/hel't/
plural noun: helots
a member of a class of serfs in ancient Sparta, intermediate in status between slaves and citizens.
a serf or slave.

#24 | Posted by Corky at 2020-04-30 10:28 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

More argument free feel good posts. Where's the beef?
I see discussions about morality and justice.
No arguments about the Truth or Falsity of any particular religion or all of them.
You have completely evaded the whole point.
Which is,is religion a true explanation of reality?
Not how it makes people better. Religion often DOES MAKE PEOPLE BETTER. No question.

That alone has no bearing on whether or not it is actually true.

... TRY HARDER.

#25 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-04-30 11:05 AM | Reply

Now I think if more people followed the teachings of Jesus, we wouldn't be in this mess.

#19 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

My younger brother is very religious. Your statement is the ONLY thing he and I (I am not a Christian, nor do I want to be) agree on. He also agrees with me that today's Christianity has very little to do with jesus' teachings.

#26 | Posted by kudzu at 2020-04-30 11:42 AM | Reply

Seems to me that lately man hasn't been so determined to kill God as God has been determined to kill man.

#27 | Posted by danni at 2020-04-30 01:20 PM | Reply

It's hard to kill a concept.

#28 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-04-30 01:28 PM | Reply

Of course it's not going to go anywhere.

People won't ever turn their back on the only thing that makes them feel like they're special and are anything more than meaningless blobs of carbon, nitrogen and oxygen that hold a bunch of water and bacteria together for an infinitesimally short period of cosmic time.

#29 | Posted by jpw at 2020-04-30 01:30 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

anything more than meaningless blobs of carbon, nitrogen and oxygen that hold a bunch of water and bacteria together for an infinitesimally short period of cosmic time.

#29 | Posted by jpw at 2020-04-30 01:30 PM | Reply

People make bad choices.

#30 | Posted by Zed at 2020-04-30 01:44 PM | Reply

Ahhh yes the old Cork & paste is back!

#31 | Posted by jpw at 2020-04-30 01:46 PM | Reply

#31 |

The old caricature rather than argument is still here.

It's nice to know, however, that there is no universe in all the multiverses where there is a God.

Nice to know it's a scientific fact, I mean, and not just an opinion.

#32 | Posted by Corky at 2020-04-30 04:17 PM | Reply

I'm STILL not seeing any arguments that PROVE the existence of any God or God's. I'm not seeing any attempt to even Try. So are you willing to accept that you have no such arguments?

I mean you keep asserting that I have no proof, but the burden really is on you to prove something that has NEVER been proven.

#33 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-04-30 04:55 PM | Reply

"So are you willing to accept that you have no such arguments?"

This concept, which must seem alien to you, is called faith.

What happened to you?

#34 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 04:55 PM | Reply

Blind Faith is the crutch of fools. Do you look before you step into the street or do you just have faith that no vehicles are coming?
In any other field of endeavor is such sloppy logic even tolerated?
C'mon man, you've got to have more than that.
That's the weakest thing I've ever read.

I feel sorry for you. You have no intelligent answer so you appeal to blind faith?

Make an argument,don't just prattle about "faith", you look stupid when you do that

Are you?

#35 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-04-30 05:19 PM | Reply

"Do you look before you step into the street or do you just have faith that no vehicles are coming?"

Can you prove cars exist?
Faith is not what you're pretending.
What happened to you?

#36 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 05:29 PM | Reply

"Blind Faith is the crutch of fools."

So what if it is?
What's gained by taking away a fool's crutch?
Now he's a fool that can only crawl.

How have you made the world a better place?

#37 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 05:32 PM | Reply

#32 it's an unprovable tenant.

Hence the faith aspect of it all.

Wouldn't have expected you to make such an obvious blunder.

#38 | Posted by jpw at 2020-04-30 05:57 PM | Reply

That's all they have. Without faith, it's just superstition, fear of the dark. They might as well be sacrificing human hearts to Quetzalcoatl to keep the sun rising every day. Religion is just that. I feel sorry for the blindness of the devout. No amount of faith can make the false. True.

#39 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-04-30 06:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

The backstory to the movie Prometheus (intentional panspermia), I believe, is actually the true basis for the bible. It lines up amazingly well. Eve coming from Adam's rib (i.e., DNA), etc.

Fun stuff.

And, as a recovering catholic, the ONLY way I'll consider any Abrahamic religious doctrine as legitimate.

#40 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-04-30 06:33 PM | Reply

"They might as well be sacrificing human hearts to Quetzalcoatl to keep the sun rising every day."

Oh, so having faith, it's the same as killing people!

Take a moment to listen to how stupid you sound.

#41 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 06:37 PM | Reply

"Eve coming from Adam's rib (i.e., DNA), etc."

So what, they not only seeded us, they wrote a book about it and seeded that too?

#42 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 06:38 PM | Reply

I prefer not to live in illusion. That's my choice. If religion comforts others that's good for them. But they are not truly lucid. They are living in a fantasy world of Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. If it makes them"happy",it still harms others because they don't respond to reality as it is.

Kind of like Trump if you think about it.
He has his own view of reality, that no one else can understand. This makes his decisions erratic and dangerous for everyone else.

The religious also act not in accordance with what is; but what they want things to be.

This is NOT HARMLESS.

#43 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-04-30 06:39 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I prefer not to live in illusion."

You voted for Trump.

#44 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 06:40 PM | Reply

"They are living in a fantasy world of Santa Claus and the tooth fairy."

Really?
What "blessings" are they getting from those who know the truth, on par with presents under the tree on Christmas?

#45 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 06:43 PM | Reply

",it still harms others because they don't respond to reality as it is."

Ya know when I was in undergrad I had a Physics professor; he was also a devout Christian. It didn't make him unable to do his job.

Some people are able to compartmentalize things.
Apparently you never learned how to do that.
That's on you.

#46 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 06:45 PM | Reply

Or perhaps some people aren't simply capable of compartmentalizing things.
In which case, it's not really fair to blame you for your inability.
Whatever. Either way, you're still being an ass.

#47 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 06:47 PM | Reply

He had to ignore the ridiculous cosmogony of his religion to do his job.

He had no integrity of intellect. Was he lying when he taught the classes, or at church when he ate the body of Christ?

Compartmentalization is a cop out.

#48 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-04-30 06:50 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

You don't get this angry without cause.

What happened to you?

#49 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 06:53 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Compartmentalization is a cop out.
#48 | POSTED BY EFFETEPOSER

Let me be clear:
You're the cop out.
Didn't we have this conversation like 18 months ago, when it came to light you were abused by the clergy?

New International Version
Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him.

New Living Translation
"Well, then," Jesus said, "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God." His reply completely amazed them.

English Standard Version
Jesus said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they marveled at him.

Berean Study Bible
Then Jesus told them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." And they marveled at Him.

Berean Literal Bible
And Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar the things of Caesar, and to God the things of God." And they were amazed at Him.

New American Standard Bible
And Jesus said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were amazed at Him.

New King James Version
And Jesus answered and said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they marveled at Him.

King James Bible
And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Christian Standard Bible
Jesus told them, "Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were utterly amazed at him.

Contemporary English Version
Then Jesus told them, "Give the Emperor what belongs to him and give God what belongs to God." The men were amazed at Jesus.

Good News Translation
So Jesus said, "Well, then, pay to the Emperor what belongs to the Emperor, and pay to God what belongs to God." And they were amazed at Jesus.

...

#50 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 06:57 PM | Reply

You're an astute man. I give you great credit for that. I am not ready to share that pain in this forum. You are however correct about it's existence. That is my burden. I carry it poorly sometimes. I may in fact be an ass as you assert.

But I am lucid about reality.

That is more important.

#51 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-04-30 06:57 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"But I am lucid about reality."

You deny the existence of the supernatural. That's fine.
But you can't prove it doesn't exist. That would by definition be impossible.

#52 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 06:58 PM | Reply

" I am not ready to share that pain in this forum."

Ah.
So you are able to compartmentalize things.
Try being nice to people.
When you don't, you get Trump.
And that doesn't seem to have worked out for you.

#53 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 07:01 PM | Reply

My pain has nothing to do with the church.
It is a personal experience with my family and my mother's lingering death. It has colored my view of the world and not for the better.

I would never wish my painfully earned awareness on anyone else.

If they are happier in the darkness of illusion,that is probably better for them.

#54 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-04-30 07:03 PM | Reply

"It is a personal experience with my family and my mother's lingering death. It has colored my view of the world and not for the better."

Let me offer up a silver lining.
At least you are honest about it, and recognize it.

I was on a hike one day and met a guy whose father was being kept alive in a persistent vegetative state by the Catholic Church, until such time as all his money ran out. The Church ate that family's inheritance, for nothing. That's how much they respect life.

#55 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 07:04 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

That's all they have. Without faith, it's just superstition, fear of the dark.
#39 | POSTED BY EFFETEPOSER

If religion got back to faith we wouldn't have the schiesters and cons running around.

I have no problem with faith. The issue is when people start wandering out of that realm and begin claiming things as known in order to control people.

#56 | Posted by jpw at 2020-04-30 07:10 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#56
"9/11 was a faith-based initiative."

#57 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 07:18 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

You're making my point for me. The killers on 9/11 were motivated by religion and rage at Western imperialism.

Religion is usually benign but can be quite destuctive.

#58 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-04-30 10:47 PM | Reply

If God exists why is it so hard to Prove?
Nobody on this thread has even tried to make any serious or even frivolous argument to prove that God exists, why?

C'mon man, somebody please; at least try.

#59 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-04-30 10:51 PM | Reply

"If God exists why is it so hard to Prove?"

What would you take for proof?
Seems like nothing short of an epiphany will do.
We wouldn't have that word, if people didn't have epiphanies.

It's still an epiphany, even if you're lying to yourself, isn't it?

For example, in medicine there is a placebo effect. That means treating disease with a placebo that ought to do nothing gets better results than doing nothing.

What's your explanation for that? Are people lying to themselves, and it makes them feel better? Is it really a lie if works?

Hard to tell which is more closed, your mind or your heart. Cheer up. ;)

#60 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-04-30 10:55 PM | Reply

Nobody on this thread has even tried to make any serious or even frivolous argument to prove that God exists, why?

I'll take "This centuries old debate will not be resolved on the Retort" for $100 Alex.

#61 | Posted by REDIAL at 2020-04-30 11:26 PM | Reply | Funny: 2 | Newsworthy 1

You're making my point for me. The killers on 9/11 were motivated by religion and rage at Western imperialism.
Religion is usually benign but can be quite destuctive.

#58 | POSTED BY EFFETEPOSER

Exactly. They wanted their faith to control how things move and work in the world.

The very thing I said I was against.

#62 | Posted by jpw at 2020-05-01 08:52 AM | Reply

LOL research has been conducted on scientists and found they are just as filled with superstition as the rest of humanity and since the 90's the amount of religious people in science has gone up despite descrimination.

#63 | Posted by Tor at 2020-05-01 11:15 PM | Reply

"There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages."

Richard Lederer

#64 | Posted by SomebodyElse at 2020-05-02 09:19 AM | Reply

- And Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar the things of Caesar, and to God the things of God." And they were amazed at Him.

They were amazed that he would publicly state that there were some things that did not belong to Caesar... in a time where in a Roman province you and all you owned belonged to Caesar.

Traditional interpretations of 500 year old translations that have become traditions are most often wrong. This was not an admonishment to give the government what is theirs; it is a declaration that not everything is theirs.

And it was him giving the Romans an excuse to accept the call of the Jewish leaders, whom he had called hypocrites to their faces and described as coffins painted white... nice on the outside but inside full of death, an excuse to execute him Roman-style on a cross as he had said they would.

I can recommend a book about what happened afterwards:

www.goodreads.com

#65 | Posted by Corky at 2020-05-02 11:18 AM | Reply

The entire premise of the article is garbage.

Religion is on the decline among educated people worldwide. Religionists have to resort to authoritarian tactics to preserve their hold on the stupid.

Religion will continue to decline and eventually disappear, though its dying vestiges will plague humanity for centuries to come. But humanity will eventually achieve herd immunity through the vaccination of education, because awareness of reality and religion cannot coexist.

#66 | Posted by DarkVader at 2020-05-02 12:49 PM | Reply

Here, here. At last the voice of reason. Kudos,sir. You are correct.

#67 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-05-02 01:48 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#66 |

Characterizations without evidence. If you want evidence that secularization is losing, read the thread article. Otherwise, you are just confirming your bias with... more bias.

"The latest year for which Pew has figures, only 3 percent of the U.S. population identifies as atheist. Yes, there has been a sizable increase here over the last decade, but that's up from only 1.6 percent of all adults."

thefederalist.com

Point made in the Federalist article is that "the nones" are not atheists, just people tired of the same fundies you are tired of; see #24.

#68 | Posted by Corky at 2020-05-02 04:13 PM | Reply

#68

Just to be clear Corky, you're one of them thar religious types, right?

Personally, I'm not. But I do have some respect for those who reside on the left while retaining religious values. I have to imagine they (you) take a lot of crap from people who lean towards the righteous but have little problem with ----- grabbing.

#69 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-05-02 04:22 PM | Reply

I do have some respect for those who reside on the left while retaining religious values.

There's a lot of them.

Jesus was said to be a liberal.

#70 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-05-02 04:31 PM | Reply

"people who lean towards the righteous but have little problem with ----- grabbing."

One of the big problems with religion is it can be twisted to mean anything.
You can't really tell me Jerry Falwell and Jimmy Carter believe the same things. They might as well be polar opposites. But there they are, both Christians.

#71 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-05-02 05:30 PM | Reply

- those who reside on the left while retaining religious values

I'm pretty sure when I got to the Retort all those years ago there weren't many people here who thought there was such a thing as a politically liberal Christian. On the right or the left.

#25 points out that rwing theocrats in this country is a mostly recent phenomenon... basically stemming back to the Civil Rights movement when the traditionalist South became Republicans after Dems accepted that change. Prior to that, people like Niebuhr were prominent in social and political thinking from the religious view.

- I do have some respect

And I appreciate that, particularly since I have been so tough on you about alt right Randian policies.

But I don't spend time criticizing the positions of people I don't have some respect for... ask Nulli, lol.

- I have to imagine they (you) take a lot of crap from people who lean

To either side. The far right doesn't believe liberal theists exist, and the far left in most cases KNOWS just as Gnostically that God cannot exist in any of the multiverses, because multiverses CAN exist, but God is a complete and scientifically settled impossibility.

But that's why only 3 percent are actual atheists; agnosticism is a valid position give the facts. My opinion is that most people know more about tv evangelists than they do actual religion.

- One of the big problems with religion is it can be twisted to mean anything.

Also a problem with scientific hypothesis.... ever seen a debate between cosmologists about things like multiverses? Science or sham, they will argue it all day long. None of us will live long enough to see the final answers to all of the questions posed by science or religion.

I'm with Issac Newton, though, both interest me and I try to know as much about both as I can. Few people study religion because "miracles". Well, a person walking on the moon would have been a "miracle" before 50 years ago.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Anyone who says they know everything there is to know about science or religion should not be listened to.

#72 | Posted by Corky at 2020-05-02 06:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

given the facts.

#73 | Posted by Corky at 2020-05-02 06:29 PM | Reply

It's easier to call yourself a Christian and point out the lack of Christianity in others Santa live the life of a Christian and show those who do not compassion.

#74 | Posted by Tor at 2020-05-02 06:34 PM | Reply

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

One of my all time favorite quotes!

#75 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2020-05-02 06:49 PM | Reply

The existence of the supernatural has never been proven at all. It is faith based, which means totally subjective and not based on any objective standard of evidence.

Would you trust your life or your loved one lives to prayer,or penicillin?

Do you,pray when your car breaks down, or do you go to a mechanic?

Do you close your eyes and step into traffic?
Or do you look where you're going?

This ---- is obvious, it's only when,"God" gets involved that people suddenly go stupid.

Do you base ANY major life decisions on faith if they are not religiously based?

C'mon man get real. It's all BULLL----.

#76 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-05-02 09:15 PM | Reply

#76

I don't know why I bother, but....

"Ultimately, the problem with militant neo-atheism is that it represents a profound category error. Explaining religion - or, indeed, the human experience - in scientific terms is futile.

"It would be as bizarre as to launch a scientific investigation into the truth of Anna Karenina or love," de Botton says. "It's a symptom of the misplaced confidence of science . . . It's a kind of category error. It's a fatally wrong question and the more you ask it, the more you come up with bizarre and odd answers."

www.newstatesman.com

So... when your significant other told you that they loved you, how did the lab results turn out?

I mean, surely you sent them for a blood test or something, right?

Love, faith, human kindness... religious and other expressions of many sorts , these are the human experience. I suggest you read the very literate article linked above written by an agnostic quoting atheists about how neo-atheist militancy is really about a mindless category error.

#77 | Posted by Corky at 2020-05-03 12:27 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#76 Still relentlessly angry over things you can't control?

Maybe if you Sharpie out part where it says "In G-d We Trust" on your money you'll feel better.

#78 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-05-03 11:12 AM | Reply

That used to be,E pluribus unum, " from many one". Better, don't you think?

More secular, more in keeping with the US as a secular republic.

Less, needlessly religious but in tone.
I'm sure the founders preferred it

#79 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-05-03 11:57 AM | Reply

Using the same positivic framework: you couldnt determine if I (or anyone other than you) exist..if you reduce knowledge to that which you personally can experience and test then anything outside that must be disgarded.

Calling the idea of God as nothing more then superstition shows you are unwilling to grant likely patterns based on perception..thus you cannot reasonably assume I or anyone other than you had consciousnesses.

Our basis for God comes from the fact that systems depend on eachother and act reliably even though they have no innate reason for doing so. In other words, causation.

#80 | Posted by Regnum at 2020-05-03 12:59 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

At least you're making an argument. I applaud you for that.

But just because systems work and everything is not chaos, is not proof of a personal God or any of the tenants of organized religion, of really any, revealed religion at All.

At best it shows the possibility of an underlying organized force. But not anything that could reasonably be called "God".

Dieism at best. Try again.

#81 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-05-03 01:20 PM | Reply

I just don't see how you can prove or even make a logical case for any supernatural phenomena.

Please keep trying, I'm open to argument.

#82 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-05-03 01:23 PM | Reply

Nor is it proof of the lack thereof.

It's not a thing you can prove, or disprove. So stop demanding the impossible.

#83 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-05-03 01:24 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#83

Which is why the thread article and headline is relevant.

#84 | Posted by Corky at 2020-05-03 01:32 PM | Reply

Man invented gods to explain the unknown, justify rules and give comfort to the suffering.

The last reason is still valid.

#85 | Posted by bored at 2020-05-03 01:34 PM | Reply

There are things, however, historical things that can be proven to oneself, not perhaps to scientific certainty, but beyond a reasonable doubt to a person who has studied them and finds the known facts and their proofs compelling.

Hence the history of people who actually studied the historicity of the Resurrection in an attempt to disprove it, only to find themselves convinced otherwise.

www.goodreads.com

#86 | Posted by Corky at 2020-05-03 01:41 PM | Reply

#85

That's what's known as an opinion. And we all have at least one of those.

#87 | Posted by Corky at 2020-05-03 01:42 PM | Reply

EVERYTHING, else can be proved or disproved so that just doesn't cut it, BRO.

#88 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-05-03 03:19 PM | Reply

Prove why the universe exists, then.

#89 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-05-03 03:34 PM | Reply

It appears that black holes, the quantum realm, and cancer, among other things, didn't exist until science proved they did... at least for some people.

Apparently consciousness separate from the physical body won't exist until science proves it could... or maybe it already has:

bigthink.com

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

#90 | Posted by Corky at 2020-05-03 03:57 PM | Reply

I'm talking more about a personal God who cares about ME. Not the abstractions we've gotten into, but them too as well. No proof, no existence, bro. Give it up it's a fairy tale. The musing of a frightened child.

#91 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-05-03 06:08 PM | Reply

- The musing of a frightened child.

Sounds like self-description, "bro".

#92 | Posted by Corky at 2020-05-03 06:52 PM | Reply

#92 Touch'e lol

#93 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-05-03 08:58 PM | Reply

Her you go EFFET

Romans 1:18-20 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities"his eternal power and divine nature"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

You can keep reading from there if you wish, but that explains your thinking.

Psalm 1 The fool[a] says in his heart,
"There is no God."

#94 | Posted by phinphan at 2020-05-03 09:00 PM | Reply

Why religion is not going away anytime soon?

A: Humanity is still a primitive, superstitious lot is why. And because most people are not well
read, nor broadly educated. Indeed, a majority of Americans, (according to Pew Research) ~55% hold pretty much the same belief set as their
parents do or did on religion, evidencing little
in the way of any spiritual or intellectual growth...

#95 | Posted by earthmuse at 2020-05-03 10:15 PM | Reply

- because most people are not well
read, nor broadly educated

In fact, many who are are Christians... just not the rwing theocrat kind.

#96 | Posted by Corky at 2020-05-03 10:55 PM | Reply

In fact, until the middle 1960's in this country; until the Republican party sold out to the South the Dems left behind, the NRA, the rwing theocrats, and the almighty corporate dollar... the face of religious social consciousness in this country was progressive Reinhold Niebuhr, not Jerry Falwell.

See #24.

And it may one day be that way again if what goes around comes around.

#97 | Posted by Corky at 2020-05-03 11:22 PM | Reply

"the face of religious social consciousness in this country was progressive Reinhold Niebuhr, not Jerry Falwell."

I grew up in the Falwell era and it soured me to what religion has to offer, which is being nice to people.

#98 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-05-04 02:58 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It's no surprise that people are turned off by self-righteous religious hypocrites. Jesus actually picked up some leather straps and used them as a whip when he chased the money-changers out of the Temple.

"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan value and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism. "

"Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith but in doubt. It is when we are unsure that we are doubly sure."

"Self-righteousness is the inevitable fruit of simple moral judgments."

"There is no deeper pathos in the spiritual life of man than the cruelty of righteous people. If any one idea dominates the teachings of Jesus, it is his opposition to the self-righteousness of the righteous."

"When economic power desires to be left alone it uses the philosophy of laissez faire to discourage political restraint upon economic freedom. When it wants to make use of the police power of the state to subdue rebellions and discontent in the ranks of its helots, it justifies the use of political coercion and the resulting suppression of liberties by insisting that peace is more precious than freedom and that its only desire is social peace."

- Reinhold Niebuhr

#99 | Posted by Corky at 2020-05-04 12:15 PM | Reply

Agreed. I didnt prove a personal god. I wasnt making an argument for a personal god, only justifying the intuitive existence of something that is transcendental (beyond matter), enternal, and the source of all the natural world.

Recall the context was a reply to a person who thinks all religious people are superstitious lemmings.

#100 | Posted by Regnum at 2020-05-04 03:25 PM | Reply

#82 said...
I just don't see how you can prove or even make a logical case for any supernatural phenomena.
Please keep trying, I'm open to argument.
>>>>

How about the phenomenon of your existence?..its something that you have zero scientific evidence for; zero mathematical formulas for; zero evidence of any kind for...

But you are so intimate with that knowledge that the moment you say "I do not exist" you see the absurdity of your statement and know yourself to be a liar.

That is what we call an intuitive truth ..a truth beyond nature..a supernatural truth.

#101 | Posted by Regnum at 2020-05-04 03:32 PM | Reply

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