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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Sunday, May 17, 2020

There was a discussion about UFOs and interstellar aliens on the DR earlier this week. In my opinion, a lot of silly assertions were made by certain posters about how it is may well be possible. Please watch the attached video. In very simple language it makes clear why we can not go faster than light. Sub-atomic particles and tachyons notwithstanding. All this talk of other dimensions to byspace and quantum anomalies is just a bunch of star trekk nonsense at this juncture.

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If you are going to argue against Einstein and Newton, please have at least one doctorate in Physics.

#1 | Posted by moder8 at 2020-05-16 11:36 PM | Reply

Can't go faster than the speed of light? Really, so what's a black hole!

#2 | Posted by Crassus at 2020-05-16 11:49 PM | Reply

Good question. We have lots of theories about what a black hole is. But for now they are just theories. We certainly have never sent an object 'into' a black hole and have it come out again, or anything along those lines.

#3 | Posted by moder8 at 2020-05-17 12:08 AM | Reply

A black hole is a region of spacetime where gravity's so strong that nothing can escape from it.
It is a compact mass so dense it deforms spacetime creating a 'black hole" because even light can't escape.
No light, black "hole."
Now that that's answered, what does that have to do with the speed of light?

Good video, BTW.

#4 | Posted by YAV at 2020-05-17 12:10 AM | Reply

Imagine you belonged to a race of intelligent beings who are visually blind. Therefore, you have no concept of light. If you used sound to make all your measurements, then of course it will be impossible to detect anything that travels faster than the speed of sound. That is how we currently are with light.

#5 | Posted by sentinel at 2020-05-17 12:30 AM | Reply

Traveling faster than light won't involve speeding up faster and faster. It will require a new understanding of what we call reality. That's more likely to come from understanding entanglement and that distance may be only a perception of quantum phenomena.

#6 | Posted by YAV at 2020-05-17 12:39 AM | Reply

"Traveling faster than light won't involve speeding up faster and faster. It will require a new understanding of what we call reality."

Sorry Yav. To me that just sounds like pseudo scientific gobbledygook. There are all sorts of mind blowing theories about entanglement and other possible examples of faster than light theory at the quantum level, but at the end of the day none point to physical matter as we understand it being able to travel at such speeds. Warp speed, hyperspace, dimensional jumps, etc are just fantasy based in the poorly understood universe of quantum physics.

#7 | Posted by moder8 at 2020-05-17 12:52 AM | Reply

Faster than light travel isn't necessary to explain the UFOs observed. If they were faster than light, they wouldn't have been observed in the first place.

I would estimate that if the crafts are inhabited, then the operators are avatars, or bioengineered beings to operate over long distances, long timeframes, to study foreign populations.

#8 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2020-05-17 01:08 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Just find a way to increase the speed of light.

#9 | Posted by Jay at 2020-05-17 01:57 AM | Reply

The speed of light is what it is regardless of what number we apply to it. If we want to make the speed of light "faster" all we have to do is change our numbering system. That won't change light's actual speed, but it will have a higher number. Einstein's law of relativity applies to all matter with a mass above zero.

#10 | Posted by moder8 at 2020-05-17 02:06 AM | Reply

Moder8, I was being tounge-in-cheek... mostly.

But since you seem to be interested in these concepts I recommend Isaac Arthor on Youtube.

Though not completely on topic, here's one of my favorites:

Civilizations at the End of Time: Iron Stars

youtu.be

#11 | Posted by Jay at 2020-05-17 02:50 AM | Reply

#1 | Posted by moder8

You can travel without moving, and faster than the speed of light by contracting space-time in front of you and expanding it behind you. It's called the Alcubierre drive.

en.wikipedia.org

#12 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2020-05-17 08:51 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

... why we can not go faster than light. ...

You may need to qualify that to include a "within the fabric of our spacetime."

To wit...

How Can the Universe Expand Faster Than the Speed of Light?
www.space.com

...How can the universe expand faster than light travels?

It seems like it should be illegal, doesn't it? Over and over (and over and over) we're told the supreme iron law of the universe: Nothing " absolutely nothing " can go faster than the speed of light. Done. Nothing further needs to be said about the issue.

And then come the astronomers, always excited by the chance to mess up your comfort zone. They come barging in with a simple observation: Some galaxies are moving away from us ... wait for it ... faster than the speed of light. What gives?...


And regarding those UFOs. Note that I went to the extent of saying I prefer to call them Unexplained Flying Object.

I don't proffer any explanation of where they come from, or where they are going.

I just want to see an explanation for what we see and the evidence that has been recorded.

#13 | Posted by LampLighter at 2020-05-17 10:52 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Mountain out of a molehill criticism of DR editing for today:

Rcade, my argument in posting this thread is that the pop culture fantasy of faster than light travel is nonsense. I understand that as the editor of this site you get to change things up that are posted on the back page before moving them to the front page. In this case though you included a blurb and a boxed picture from "The Team at X" which talks about a crackpot group of scientists "channeling star trek" who have not given up on the warp drive. The point is, the blurb you put up at the top of the thread, imo, argues against the idea/position being put forth in the video which is the basis of this thread. Put aside the subject of this thread for one moment. I think it is questionable editorial practice to place an article/video/whatever posted by a contributor on the front page, and then argue against it's central idea by posting those type of blurbs. ...I know. I am way of overthinking this. But I don't like it and I can think of other contexts, such as a political thread or race related thread where it could even be offensive.

#14 | Posted by moder8 at 2020-05-17 02:51 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#14MODER8

So when we identify an object as an unidentified flying object and it zips away at thousands of miles per hour suddenly we are looking at what precisely? How many laws of physics are being disobeyed simultaneously? And crapping on Star trek will get you no points with me. Why don't you take a nap and conceptualize your relativistic attitude as the cap on lightspeed.

Have you even looked at videos of UFOs zipping around or are you just making crap up two ----- about people who have? I recommend checking out the disclosure project with dr. Greer for a more practical insight as to what is occurring, rather than discounting everything entirely.

#15 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-05-17 04:30 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Can we get offensive in this thread?

#16 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-05-17 04:31 PM | Reply

If you want to believe in faster than light travel or other types of magic, go ahead. This is America. You can believe any fairy tale you want. But until evidence from the realm of peer review physics that refutes both Einstein and Newton comes to light, I will continue to believe that no type of MATTER with a mass above zero can travel either at, or faster than the speed of light. Regardless of what you might see on some youtube video released by NASA or the Navy.

#17 | Posted by moder8 at 2020-05-17 04:45 PM | Reply

#17 MODER8

So your tactic is to discount and ignore all things that don't fall into your paradigm. How neat. incidentally, from what I understand most discoveries are made by doing something that isn't necessarily conventional or practically understood. They seem to be accidental discoveries, giving insight to something that was always available you dumb dumb idiot. How dare you begin this moronic thread and then refuse to do any of the footwork ---- you.

#18 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-05-17 05:03 PM | Reply

Oh my, even the snowflakes are complaining about editing... Moder8 is calling on daddy!

#19 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2020-05-17 05:15 PM | Reply

The aliens are beyond light speed they have gone plaid. All hail big helmet

#20 | Posted by patron at 2020-05-17 10:10 PM | Reply

And just because I'm a nimrod I'm going to throw in here that the speed of light is likely a law of Gods.

And yes I'm grinning maniacally while I write.

#21 | Posted by Tor at 2020-05-17 10:29 PM | Reply

MODER8 - What you are saying is true based on what I will call macro physics. That does not mean you can not get across the galaxy faster than the time it takes light to travel the distance. Who would have thought a "transporter" was possible either but it's been done - albeit on a tiny scale. As a realist I get it but I do have to say don't discount science fiction however. We are just beginning to comprehend quantum mechanics not to mention time - who knows what else is out there? Thinking outside of the box and using imagination has driven scientific discovery IMHO. We all know that all science fiction will not become reality but so much has...

Personally I am stuck on this the whole universe is a simulation thing...

#22 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2020-05-18 12:06 AM | Reply

Regardless of what you might see on some youtube video released by NASA or the Navy.
#17 | POSTED BY MODER8

HAHAHA!

"People often persist in long-held beliefs even in the face of evidence that invalidates them."
ed.stanford.edu

#23 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-05-18 12:09 AM | Reply

Of all the things that MODER8 took issue with on that thread earlier this week, it was the assumption that aliens are visiting Earth by utilizing technology that breaks the speed of light.

JFC.

"Regardless of what you might see on some youtube video released by NASA or the Navy."

Just sad.

#24 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-05-18 12:11 AM | Reply

GalaxiePete: The "transporter" you refer to beamed subatomic particles. They have zero mass. Einstein's relativity theory states that matter with any mass above zero cannot go faster than the speed of light. Beaming massless subatomic particles at the quantum level has no bearing on the issue of whether matter can travel faster than the speed of light. Sorry. Don't conflate very different ideas. It is tempting to pretend that there is a nexis between phenomena at the quantum level and phenomena that occur in the universe we experience. But no such cross-over has been found to exist. Now if we could beam a needle or a tank via a transporter system, that would be totally different and Einstein would be proved incorrect. But nothing remotely similar to that has ever occurred. Our fantasies that what occur in a quantum state may also occur in our material/matter state are just not based on scientific reality.

Rsty: I have no qualms with the notion that people see things in the sky that they cannot identify. I have seen such phenomena myself. That is why they are call "unidentified". It is a ---- of a stretch to go from acknowledging that something is currently unidentified to reaching the point of declaring that it is a phenomena which defies all the laws of physics known to man. It is arrogant presumption and fantastic imagining to conclude that just because something cannot currently be explained means that it must a phenomena outside the realm of all known physics. That is not science. That is wishful thinking.

#25 | Posted by moder8 at 2020-05-18 12:54 AM | Reply

I am not convinced that Einstein will have the last say on the speed of light. Many thought that Newton would have the last say; then Einstein comes along. Given sufficient time and scientific advancements, another Einstein will emerge. In fact, I think that, over time, many Einsteins will emerge and our current "advanced" scientific theories will seem antiquated.

Such has been the human experience and will likely continue to be so unless we kill ourselves off.

#26 | Posted by FedUpWithPols at 2020-05-18 11:05 AM | Reply

According to the BBT, time/space, with all the elements necessary to form all everything we know of in it, appeared "everywhere" in a fraction of a fraction of a second.

Don't know if that qualifies as "travel", but it appears to be something similar. Otherwise, M8's premise seems to be solid concerning light travel.

#27 | Posted by Corky at 2020-05-18 11:57 AM | Reply

Simple question here. I'm honestly not trying to stir the pot. I'm curious how a subatomic particle can have a mass of 0. Is it a matter of rounding? I would think that ANY particle must have SOME kind of mass, even if it is approaching 0. After all, objects that DO have mass are ultimately made up of atomic particles....which are made up of subatomic particles.

I'm just curious about the physics. Again not saying anyone is right or wrong.

#28 | Posted by dylanfan at 2020-05-18 12:09 PM | Reply

Dylanfan:
The best I could come up with online:
Light is composed of photons, so we could ask if the photon has mass. The answer is then definitely "no": the photon is a massless particle. According to theory it has energy and momentum but no mass, and this is confirmed by experiments to within strict limits.

#29 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2020-05-18 12:24 PM | Reply

Subatomic particles are energy. Energy has no mass. Matter has mass. Energy can be converted into matter and vice versa via Einsteins famous E=MC2 equation. It is a lay persons complete misunderstanding of physics to think that because energy can be converted into matter that energy, such as subatomic particles, has mass.

As for Einstein having "the final word", of course not. Great minds will continue to push the boundaries of knowledge. But pushing the boundaries does not mean proving Einstein's theory of relativity to be incorrect. Pushing the boundaries means taking it to the mathematical level. Just as Newton has been built upon for hundreds of years, so will Einstein. But they will not be 'disproven', anymore than Darwin or Galileo will ever be disproven.

#30 | Posted by moder8 at 2020-05-18 01:25 PM | Reply

"So your tactic is to discount and ignore all things that don't fall into your paradigm."

Welcome to the Retort. That's almost a prerequisite for posting here.

#31 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2020-05-18 01:50 PM | Reply

"If you are going to argue against Einstein and Newton, please have at least one doctorate in Physics."

Maybe that should apply to those defending them as well.

Zatoichi is rolling over in his grave because of this thread.

Both for the speculative conjecture and the botched and incorrect defense of known science.

#32 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2020-05-18 01:55 PM | Reply

"my" paradigm. lol.

That may be the single most ridiculous mis-use of the word paradigm ever. Einstein's theory of relativity is no more "my" paradigm than is Darwin's theory of evolution, Newton's 3 laws of thermodynamics or any other verified scientific breakthrough that has withstood all the tests of science
since being introduced. since being introduced.

But if you want to rename Einstein's General Theory of Relativity as Moder8"s Paradigm, go ahead. I am flattered.

#33 | Posted by moder8 at 2020-05-18 01:58 PM | Reply

HC: Refute the video at the head of this thread. You can't. Because it is not an incorrect defense of science. You made that up because it annoys you that a non-scientist lay person is pointing out that absurdity of all the DR ignoramuses who believe that faster than light travel beyond the quantum level is possible. Maybe you can get some ammo to respond by watching Star Wars or The Terminator one more time.

#34 | Posted by moder8 at 2020-05-18 02:03 PM | Reply

"You made that up because it annoys you that a non-scientist lay person is pointing out that absurdity of all the DR ignoramuses who believe that faster than light travel beyond the quantum level is possible. Maybe you can get some ammo to respond by watching Star Wars or The Terminator one more time."

Get off your high horse. That's not what I said and it's not what I believe. Physics has demonstrated that FTL travel runs into real obstacles that have not been addressed beyond the theoretical. My point, related to your first comment, is that you are no better qualified to defend Einstein than anybody here is to criticize him and your subsequent posts demonstrate that. Why I brought up Zatoichi is because he used to get more annoyed by people here who share his point of view ---- up the science than by those who disagreed with him.

#35 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2020-05-18 03:04 PM | Reply

I have posted a video that in layman's terms makes it clear why faster than light travel is impossible beyond the quantum level. If by that you mean I am "defending Einstein", then sure. As a layperson with no scientific background but who is relatively up-to-date on the current state of knowledge at a simplified level of theories of faster than light travel, yes, I am defending Einstein. It is impossible beyond the quantum level. And while other 'dimensions' may exist, there is mechanism for physical matter such as people or spaceships, to travel through them in an intact state.

#36 | Posted by moder8 at 2020-05-18 03:11 PM | Reply

* there is NO mechanism for physical matter

#37 | Posted by moder8 at 2020-05-18 03:12 PM | Reply

Good News Everyone.

"That's why scientists increased the speed of light in 2208."
Prof. Farnsworth, "Futurama"

#38 | Posted by Sycophant at 2020-05-18 03:35 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Perhaps trans dimensional perspective will be required. The speculation is in higher dimensions, time and space become relative. Problem is we have no perspective or method of investigation of something we have no ability to observe. Can we travel to the stars? Yes. It will just take a long time to get there.

#39 | Posted by docnjo at 2020-05-18 04:00 PM | Reply

Perhaps I have misspoken and demonstrated utter ignorance of long-standing rules. Education is a joy, a rare treat, something to be relished. Are UFOs fact or not? If they are, is what we are seeing disobeying any of those long-standing rules? Could there be a different set of rules that adhere to disobeying? Perhaps an entirely separate system must be designed for it's physical manifestation to equate to a UFOs abilities?

All we are arguing is whether or not what we are seeing is in fact faster than light. However, that's rather difficult to gauge without accepting that the UFOs exist in the first place.

The only plausibility in the denial has been destroyed by countless videos and interviews. The vehicles exist and utilize power into transportation. Since we do not currently utilize similar systems of travel how could you know any different from what you see?

#40 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-05-18 08:19 PM | Reply

what I am saying is that this thread is bunk without the universal qualifier that the object disobeying the rule exists in the first place.

Do UFOs exist or not?

If so what do we observe about them?

In those observations do they appear to utilize or defy physics compared to our technologies and scientific insight?

Golly, if it weren't for our observations perhaps they wouldn't exist and the information that physical objects can exist faster than light would never exist either.

But without the consideration of an object performing such this thread is without existence either.

#41 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-05-18 09:55 PM | Reply

Once we are past that I suppose we could conjecture on what powers such a system. Perhaps even how.

#42 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-05-18 09:56 PM | Reply

The laughter is deafening.

perhaps there is some insight in how alien circuitry is expected to function. With your model just expecting energetic systems to interact in a physical medium add a velocity that exceeds light impliesits internal mechanisms must also function as an even further accelerated rate.

Therefore, it is more acceptable to consider an alternate reality within the existing framework of reality. A bubble world if you will, perhaps the rules of physics inter relate between these two differentiating space. perhaps there is a manner of altering this interrelation to expand and contract in accordance with the physical velocity of highly energetic systems without the squishing of matter.

#43 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-05-18 10:53 PM | Reply

@#36 ... As a layperson with no scientific background but who is relatively up-to-date on the current state of knowledge at a simplified level of theories of faster than light travel, yes, I am defending Einstein. ...

Then please explain to me your rationalization of the article I posted from space.com of a galaxy moving faster than the speed of light. ( www.space.com )

To refresh you...

...How can the universe expand faster than light travels?

It seems like it should be illegal, doesn't it? Over and over (and over and over) we're told the supreme iron law of the universe: Nothing " absolutely nothing " can go faster than the speed of light. Done. Nothing further needs to be said about the issue.

And then come the astronomers, always excited by the chance to mess up your comfort zone. They come barging in with a simple observation: Some galaxies are moving away from us ... wait for it ... faster than the speed of light. What gives?...


Please note, I am not trying to contradict what you assert.

I am just saying that you need to be a whole lot more specific and detailed in your assertions because, as you currently state them, they do not reflect what astrophysicists say.

As a hint, I would suggest that you "As a layperson with no scientific background" take the time to understand the fabric of space time, and how space time may be expanding faster than the speed of light and how that affects our understanding of what Einstein has stated.

(hint: it does not contradict Mr Einstein.)

#44 | Posted by LampLighter at 2020-05-18 11:22 PM | Reply

MODER8

My language was inappropriate, I get impassioned. It's so frustrating when otherwise informed or educated people refuse to even look at evidence. It consistently leaves this discussion one-sided. I want you to argue against their existence, tell me I am being given false information in order to perform something, but do it with enough respect to view the evidence first.

#45 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-05-19 02:08 AM | Reply

"back and to the left"..

#46 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-05-19 12:06 PM | Reply

Comments are closed for this entry.

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