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Thursday, July 09, 2020

If it wasn't coming from a credible source I wouldn't believe it but Jefferson tried to outlaw the transatlantic slave trade as part of a larger effort to apparently wean America off of slavery.

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He try. He foiled

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#1 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2020-07-09 09:44 PM | Reply

Jefferson was not an evil man. He lived in the society he was part of. He did want to end slavery. He just liked money that slavery made possible.

Like it or not, Slavery was a legal labor option in early America. For backbreaking work in excessive heat and humidity slavery was the only way to economically, "git her done".

Jefferson is complex and paradoxical. He owned human beings,he also wrote the Declaration of Independence.

He had children by one of his slaves, he did not believe in a Christian God.

He purchased half of our national territory.

His greatness is genuine. He just wasn't a MODERN man. Get over it. History should revere him even if he wasn't perfect.

This "woke" stuff is getting too stupid to believe lately.

#2 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-07-09 11:54 PM | Reply

"Jefferson was not an evil man."

Yes he was.
He was also a good man, and even a great man.
Try pretending you can see nuance, it will help you pass as normal.

#3 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-10 12:44 AM | Reply

"Like it or not, Slavery was a legal labor option in early America."

Suuure.
Sally Hemings was a "laborer."
In TJ's bed.

#4 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-10 12:54 AM | Reply

Child laborer, no less.

#5 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-10 01:01 AM | Reply

Who made you the arbiter of what is "normal"?
Arrogant much? Jefferson had issues,no question.

Nuance is --------, an excuse for situational ethics. Try having some nuance about Trump.

Jefferson was a hypocrite, there is no nuance about that. He also was not breaking ANY laws of the time when he purchased and impregnated his chattels.

Try being consistent in your reasoning. You might pass for intelligent,maybe,but I doubt it.

#6 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-07-10 03:04 AM | Reply

Good grief
Prior to 1950 a grown man could marry a 10 year old

It wasn't against the law

Law or not, that's some sick ----

Jefferson is not beyond accountability. People found slavery abhorrent then just as they do now, and they didn't buy slaves or marry children because it was "legal"

#7 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2020-07-10 07:56 AM | Reply

Jefferson was not an evil man."

Yes he was.
He was also a good man, and even a great man.
Try pretending you can see nuance, it will help you pass as normal.

#3 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Ok. I will bite. Please explain your reasoning.

How was Thomas Jefferson "evil"?

For example. Jeffrey Dalmer was evil. I don't even to need to explain why.

But Thomas Jefferson like Lincoln, Washington and others were products of their Time.

They somehow rose above it. To make our country a more perfect union. (Not perfect... but... More Perfect than before) And we cherish them for it. With all their faults as humans.

Jeffrey Dalmer did the opposite. He was a manifestation of pure evil. The evil is obvious to all.

#8 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-07-10 09:18 AM | Reply

Jefferson was not an evil man. He lived in the society he was part of.

There is no excuse for owning slaves in any era. You can't engage in one of the most evil practices in human history and be free of the stain.

Any efforts he made against slavery are repudiated by the fact he owned slaves at the time of his death and even then 130 of 133 were sold, not freed.

#9 | Posted by rcade at 2020-07-10 10:56 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

His family wanted to cash out the estate. They were unwilling to lose money by freeing valuable property. This stain is on them; not Jefferson himself.

Most people are not saints. They followed the LAWS of their time.

They broke NO laws of the time by liquidating his estate.

If you have a problem with that get a time machine and change the laws in force in 1826.

Good luck with that.

#10 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-07-10 11:19 AM | Reply

"This "woke" stuff is getting too stupid to believe lately."

When folks on the right want to convince others the left hates this country, wants to trash it, trash our heritage, our culture, etc....this is the conversation they point to as an example. They quote folks like Snoofy and hold them up as your representative of the left.

#11 | Posted by eberly at 2020-07-10 11:26 AM | Reply

If you could time travel to the future, and were to find that somehow things had changed and progressed to the point where abortions were considered a barbaric activity of the past... Would you step forward and call yourself evil for having supported it? It would be the mindset of the times...

Personally I waiver easily back and forth on abortion, and not so much on slavery, so I do see that this isn't the perfect example.

#12 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2020-07-10 11:47 AM | Reply

I get what you mean k WRX 25.

I could see a future where we are damned as barbarians for say eating meat, for having mass incarceration, and a thousand other things that we considered normal.

#13 | Posted by Tor at 2020-07-10 12:29 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

This stain is on them; not Jefferson himself.

He could have freed all 133 in his will. He freed 3. The other 130 he was happy to keep in human ------- to their dying day.

They broke NO laws of the time by liquidating his estate.

So what? The law at the time allowed slavery, in all its rancid forms of commerce.

We can judge slavers by any standard we like. We're not obligated to judge them by the evil standards of an evil era.

Excusing evil because it was in the past is still excusing evil. You shouldn't be doing it.

#14 | Posted by rcade at 2020-07-10 01:13 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"How was Thomas Jefferson "evil"?"

He took his slave girl for a concubine.

Con-cu-bine in case the filter decides to whitewash history again.

Just to be clear, someone could do that to your mother and you wouldn't call him evil. According to you.

#15 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-10 02:00 PM | Reply

I could see a future where we are damned as barbarians for say eating meat, for having mass incarceration, and a thousand other things that we considered normal.
#13 | POSTED BY TOR

You don't think mass incarceration is evil, right now?

War on Drugs isn't evil, right now?

Is China's mass incarceration evil, but ours is good, Tor?

#16 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-10 02:02 PM | Reply

I share a birthday with Jefferson and grew up idolizing him. But at some point you gotta admit the facts. Our most articulate founder on the subject of freedom didn't let those lofty noble values stop him from owning human beings.

#17 | Posted by rcade at 2020-07-10 05:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Jefferson's introducing legislation was more than just abstract idealism like I previously thought he had engaged in.

#18 | Posted by Tor at 2020-07-10 07:10 PM | Reply

Jefferson keeping slaves, and not freeing them upon his death, was likewise more than just abstract idealism too.

#19 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-10 08:45 PM | Reply

How would you go about freeing your slaves in Jefferson's time? I'm sure there were skilled horsemen or skilled forge workers but most field workers? Thank you for your service? Best of luck? Sorry we weren't aloud to teach you how to read? Well off you go.

#20 | Posted by bruceaz at 2020-07-10 09:09 PM | Reply

Could always get some indentured servants to pick your crops.

Is debt slavery better than actual slavery? Only slightly, but at least there a small light at the end of the tunnel for those folks.

#21 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2020-07-10 09:15 PM | Reply

"How would you go about freeing your slaves in Jefferson's time?"

Well, he freed four of them, two in the early 1820s, and two more in his will; all were children he sired with Sally Hemings.
And he didn't free the other 100 of them.
So, that's how.

#22 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-10 10:57 PM | Reply

Snoofy I am just asking how they'd survive. You know a lot of abolitionists were for freedom but they sure as hell weren't inviting them to be their neighbors and to share in their good fortune.

#23 | Posted by bruceaz at 2020-07-10 11:19 PM | Reply

Great question. Stunningly, this information not included in my white-washed American public school education! If the Tulsa Race Massacre of 1921 was any indication, they formed little enclaves with other black people, hoping to steer clear of whites who hated them as best they could.

#24 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-10 11:53 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Thanks Snoofy.

#25 | Posted by bruceaz at 2020-07-10 11:58 PM | Reply

You're welcome. Wish I knew more. I was hopeful The Color Purple had some clues but that was from the 1930s. The existence of a few automobiles should have tipped me off...

#26 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-11 12:00 AM | Reply

I loved Boardwalk Empire. When Nucky would talk to Chalked White with his people in their neighborhood then talk about the same issue to the white folks in their neighborhood , well it was classic.

#27 | Posted by bruceaz at 2020-07-11 12:15 AM | Reply

Chalkie

#28 | Posted by bruceaz at 2020-07-11 12:19 AM | Reply

SNOOFY is right about the free folks forming enclaves. Gadsden, FL is an interesting study over time of that type of aspect.

#29 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2020-07-11 12:20 AM | Reply

Since someone brought up Tulsa I can't believe I forgot the role a white man being lynched not long before it played in the whole mess.

en.wikipedia.org

#30 | Posted by Tor at 2020-07-11 12:24 AM | Reply

#30
"An all-white grand jury investigated, but indicted no one."

Therefore, no crime took place.
Signed,
ABH

#31 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-11 12:27 AM | Reply

I've had people tell me White people have never been lynched in America.

#32 | Posted by Tor at 2020-07-11 12:29 AM | Reply

"I've had people tell me White people have never been lynched in America."

Did you say "Nuh uh, Matthew Shepard!"

#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-11 12:41 AM | Reply

I thought Shepard was Beat almost to Death while tied to a telephone post and left for dead but he live just long enough to identify his attackers.

What happened to byrd in Texas was much more like a lynching and in some ways so much worse.

#34 | Posted by Tor at 2020-07-11 01:00 AM | Reply

Well, Byrd's death was an actual hate crime, whereas I subscribe to the theory that Matthew Shepard's murder wasn't precipitated by his being gay, but rather by Matthew Shepard owing drug dealers a lot of money.

Similar kind of theory exists for George Floyd, by the way. He wasn't killed for being black, but rather, where'd he get a counterfeit $20 in the first place? From the club he and his killer worked at. And that's why his killer only arrived on the scene after the call went out over police radio, to protect the Somali money laundering/counterfeit operation being run at that club.

As Et_Al might say, never trust the press to accurately report a potentially identity-related murder.

#35 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-11 01:35 AM | Reply

Snoofy,

"He took his slave girl for a concubine."

She was no ordinary slave.

The women you referenced was Jefferson's deceased wife's half sister and he treated this women exceedingly well.

The only issue some have is that he didn't free her upon his death.

However, there are a variety of opinions on why he didn't.

#36 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-07-11 08:24 AM | Reply

It is known Jefferson was not in agreement with the times on the issue of slavery.

Yes...he owned slaves and for that he will be judged.

However, he was different from many other slave owners and his views on the subject are documented.

Too bad people are not willing to separate Jefferson the inner-man from Jefferson the slave owner to give him credit for being ahead of his times on the subject of slavery.

#37 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-07-11 08:32 AM | Reply

She was no ordinary slave.

The women you referenced was Jefferson's deceased wife's half sister and he treated this women exceedingly well.

Did Sally Hemmings have the freedom to make her own decisions regarding her "relationship" with Jefferson or was she legally nothing more than his personal property, someone he could treat and act upon however his whims moved him during every single second of her servitude?

You're blind to the realities of slavery. "He treated this woman exceedingly well"(?) How the hell do you know? Because someone (or perhaps TJ himself) wrote those words while still in full understanding of the slave/master dynamic?

Every slave/master assignation was an abomination to every notion of individual freedom and liberty that this nation's Constitution was written to insure for all citizens.

There's the rub - slaves were not citizens, they were property and were treated as such. Sally Hemmings had no right to deny TJ anything that he requested from her. Maybe he didn't beat her or violently rape her based on his own momentary desires. But there was nothing honorable or "well" about their relationship.

#38 | Posted by tonyroma at 2020-07-11 08:41 AM | Reply

She was no ordinary slave

Said at every auction .

#39 | Posted by bruceaz at 2020-07-11 09:31 AM | Reply

Tony,

Jefferson and Sally Hemmings lived in France where she could have been free but remained with him and returned to Virginia.

They had children together he eventually arranged to be freed.

That doesn't sound like your typical slave relationship.

#40 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-07-11 09:31 AM | Reply

"That doesn't sound like your typical slave relationship."

Indeed it does not.

Out of a hundred slaves, he picked just one girl to be his concubine.

You might as well be saying "Hiding in an attic for two years before getting caught by Nazis doesn't sound like your typical Dutch girl."

#41 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-11 02:24 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Too bad people are not willing to separate Jefferson the inner-man from Jefferson the slave owner to give him credit for being ahead of his times on the subject of slavery.
#37 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

He gets credit for lots of things.

Being "good" on the issue of slavery is not among them.

Stop re-writing history, punk.

#42 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-11 02:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I think it says a lot how far we've fallen as a society, that we want to give people credit for trying.

That's Participation Trophy thinking.

#43 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-11 03:42 PM | Reply

Weirdest part of a whole Sally hemings investigation have to be that she chose to return to Monticello after living in France where she could have been free.

#44 | Posted by Tor at 2020-07-11 03:51 PM | Reply

Sure, because sixteen year old girls don't get groomed in 2020, Ghisaline Maxwell didn't groom girls for powerful elites, and it definitely wasn't happen in 1790!

Weirdest part about Sally Hemings is white people denying what she was, which is a concubine, and therefore what Thomas Jefferson was.

#45 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-11 05:03 PM | Reply

Snoofy at what age did people in your family get married in that time?

#46 | Posted by Tor at 2020-07-11 06:29 PM | Reply

Tor at what age did people in your family take concubines in that time?

You seem to be denying what a concubine is.

You're erasing history.

#47 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-11 06:41 PM | Reply

Snoofy if you don't know you could always start a pedigree chart.

#48 | Posted by Tor at 2020-07-11 06:51 PM | Reply

Tor if you don't know what the difference between a wife and a concubine is you could always read The Bible.

#49 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-11 06:58 PM | Reply

All things in due time.

Or do you already know how young people in your family use to marry?

#50 | Posted by Tor at 2020-07-11 07:15 PM | Reply

"All things in due time."

For example, sixteen years is a ripe age for taking your slave girl as concubine.
A lot of slave owners would go younger, and you'd be fine with that too.

#51 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-11 07:21 PM | Reply

Snoofy, I don't think general concubines are analogous to slaves; ie. the property of their "partner's".

However Sally may have felt about TJ, she always understood first and foremost that she was beneath him in societal status (be it domestically or in France) - and absolutely in America nothing more the TJ's property, of which he could do or use her however he sees fit including ending her very life purely at his own whim without facing any criminal liability.

Can you imagine knowing that another human being actually has the right to end your life simply because of how he feels in any particular moment in time?

Actually you might be able to understand it better by reading George Floyd's police transcript as he narrates his own death under the knee of an alleged "peace officer."

#52 | Posted by tonyroma at 2020-07-11 07:25 PM | Reply

Was actual murder of slaves legal? I question that assertion. Can you back it up. References please.

#53 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-07-11 07:50 PM | Reply

Snoofy your projecting is getting weird.

Were your parents siblings who had to have a shotgun marriage as teenagers?

#54 | Posted by Tor at 2020-07-12 01:09 AM | Reply

"Snoofy, I don't think general concubines are analogous to slaves; ie. the property of their "partner's".

Since when?

Back in the good old days, your wife was your property.

It's listed among the many pieces of thy neighbors property thou shalt not cover, for example.

Anyway, Sally Hemings was both concubine and property.

#55 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-12 03:36 PM | Reply

You think the Ten Commandments doesn't apply to women snoof?

#56 | Posted by Tor at 2020-07-12 06:55 PM | Reply

You think the Ten Commandments doesn't apply to slaves Tor?

#57 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-12 07:02 PM | Reply

Snoofy just admit that you think the 10 commandments do or don't apply to women.

#58 | Posted by Tor at 2020-07-12 07:11 PM | Reply

What the eff?

The Ten Commandments apply to all the Children of Abraham.

Including sex slaves and birthing vessels like Sally Hemings.

And her owner and life-long rapist, Thomas Jefferson.

#59 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-07-12 07:14 PM | Reply

Oh good because that would be stupid to say that laws against coveting only apply to men.

#60 | Posted by Tor at 2020-07-12 07:17 PM | Reply

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