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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Sunday, August 09, 2020

Michael T. Osterholm and Neel Kashkari - Dr. Osterholm is director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. Mr. Kashkari is president of the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis: We believe the choice is clear. We can continue to allow the coronavirus to spread rapidly throughout the country or we can commit to a more restrictive lockdown, state by state, for up to six weeks to crush the spread of the virus to less than one new case per 100,000 people per day.

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Why did the United States' Covid-19 containment response fail, particularly compared with the successful results of so many nations in Asia, Europe and even our neighbor Canada?

Simply, we gave up on our lockdown efforts to control virus transmission well before the virus was under control. Many other countries didn't let up until the number of cases was greatly reduced, even in places that had extensive outbreaks in March and April. Once the number of new cases in those areas was driven to less than one per 100,000 people per day as a result of their lockdowns, limiting the increase of new cases was possible with a combination of testing, contact tracing, case isolation and extensive monitoring of positive tests.

Congress should be aggressive in supporting people who've lost jobs because of Covid-19. It's not only the right thing to do but also vital for our economic recovery. If people can't pay their bills, it will ripple through the economy and make the downturn much worse, with many more bankruptcies, and the national recovery much slower.

There is no trade-off between health and the economy. Both require aggressively getting control of the virus. History will judge us harshly if we miss this life- and economy-saving opportunity to get it right this time.

For those of us who care, bookmark this article for all the times idiots will still say "Well, what is Trump supposed to do?".

THIS is what any rational President would do because this is the way to accomplish BOTH the health crisis and the economic crisis stemming from the health crisis. So here it is boys and girls, a reasoned, sane, way forward presented by both a health professional and the President of the Minneapolis Fed. Odds of Trump and the GOP actually listening and acting upon their recommendations? Zero.

#1 | Posted by tonyroma at 2020-08-08 08:05 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Osterholm?

Lol early in the pandemic people were saying he was the head of the CDC.

I agree with him though.

Treat the pandemic like the biological equivalent of a wildfire and starve it of its fuel state-by-state.

#2 | Posted by Tor at 2020-08-08 09:03 PM | Reply

Here's How to Crush the Virus Until Vaccines Arrive

Go live in a country that's not in the hemisphere devastated by America's failure to lead?
Oops, too late!

#3 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-08 11:19 PM | Reply

#3

Should of got your A@$ back to communist China when you had the chance.

#4 | Posted by willowby at 2020-08-09 12:06 AM | Reply

Are you here to fail a Turing Test at us, Willowby?

#5 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-09 07:18 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Many countries have crushed the virus.

They don't have anything we don't have.

Gosh I wonder how they did it!

No actually I don't. I know exactly why we can't do what they have done.

Because of Donald Jenius Trump.

Period.

#6 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-08-09 11:46 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Should of got your A@$ back to communist China when you had the chance.

#4 | POSTED BY WILLOWBY

Somebody has to try to prevent you -------- from turning the US into China.

#7 | Posted by jpw at 2020-08-09 11:54 AM | Reply

I don't think any of you get it. You can blame Trump if you want to, but Trump can't make people go out. No one has to ask him for permission if they want to isolate.

Unless you're a fan of having little green men with POLICE badges throw violators into unmarked cars (maybe it's OK to do that to those who don't honor quarantine), there's not much you can do.

I can't stand Trump. But he didn't do this. Americans did this. By their own free will.

The good news is you can still hunker down in your house. No one can tell you you can't.

#8 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-09 12:03 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

@#8 ... But he didn't do this. ...

He had a very significant part in creating the current crisis.

For starters...

He demeaned people for wearing a mask, making the wearing of a mask a divisive political issue instead of the health issue it is.

He gave out bad advice during his press briefings, some of the advice actually caused emergency room visits (the bleach thing).

He did not lead the Country towards getting a working, nationwide testing program.

He didn't lead. He divided, for political re-election purposes.

There's more, but that should do for starters.

So, yes, Pres Trump had a very significant role in getting us to the crisis we are currently in.

#9 | Posted by LampLighter at 2020-08-09 12:13 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#9

That's fair.

I can see your point. I have viewed the trump presidency as a joke from day 1. I pretty much ignore him as a person. It's his unilateral orders that tend to piss me off, but with regard to COVID there hasn't been any of that. None that I can recall anyway.

Your position seems to be that a president should be honest and trustworthy. I never make that assumption. Especially with Trump.

#10 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-09 12:25 PM | Reply

@#10 ... Your position seems to be that a president should be honest and trustworthy. ...

My position is that the president should be loyal to the Constitution, and be a leader.


Regarding COVID-19, Pres Trump did not lead.


#11 | Posted by LampLighter at 2020-08-09 12:28 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Curl up in a fetal position in germ-free bunker, totally dependent on real men and women taking care of business, until it's 100% safe. So same as it ever was.

#12 | Posted by visitor_ at 2020-08-09 12:40 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Don't despair, University of Phoenix has loose entry requirements and some of your community college credits will transfer.

#13 | Posted by visitor_ at 2020-08-09 12:45 PM | Reply

visitor thinks he's a "real man."

LOL

www.youtube.com

"Any man who must say "I am the king" is no true king"

Same goes for declaring one's manhood.

#14 | Posted by jpw at 2020-08-09 12:47 PM | Reply

#12

New Zealand Has Completed 100 Days Free From Coronavirus

New Zealand achieves 100 days without any recorded community transmission cases of COVID-19 on Sunday, August 9.

For the South Pacific country of close to 5 million people, life is returning to normal as malls and restaurants are open again. Starting from its first reported transmission on February 26, to stamping out the last community transmission, took New Zealand a total of 65 days.

Yeah Visitor, nothing can be done. Farging ignoramus.

#15 | Posted by tonyroma at 2020-08-09 12:50 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

I have viewed the trump presidency as a joke from day 1. I pretty much ignore him as a person.
#10 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Laughing about the President whose (in)action led to 160,000 dead Americans and counting is such a fitting look for you, MadBomber.

#16 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-09 01:06 PM | Reply

If third world right next door to China Vietnam can crush the virus America sure as hell can to.

#17 | Posted by Tor at 2020-08-09 01:30 PM | Reply

Not anymore, Tor.
That ship has sailed.
Trump sailed it directly into the rocks, on purpose.

#18 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-09 01:40 PM | Reply

I can't stand Trump. But he didn't do this. Americans did this. By their own free will.
#8 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Bush didn't invade Iraq.
Americans did.
Of their own free will.

#19 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-09 01:57 PM | Reply

One cannot crush/stop a virus as evidenced by the annual flu season which kills thousands each and every year.

#20 | Posted by MSgt at 2020-08-09 02:03 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

#20 actually the widespread use of masks (elsewhere in the world, obviously) has led to a drop in the number of other diseases transmitted by droplets, such as colds and flu.

#21 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-09 02:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

"Any man who must say "I am the king" is no true king"
Same goes for declaring one's manhood.

#14 | POSTED BY JPW AT 2020-08-09 12:47 PM

Same thing applies for constantly telling people you are smarter than they are.

#22 | Posted by leftcoastlawyer at 2020-08-09 02:09 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

"Same goes for declaring one's manhood."

That's where the pickup truck comes in.

Nobody can deny your manhood when you're rolling coal in a shiny new truck that costs more than a collage education!

#23 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-09 02:17 PM | Reply

One cannot crush/stop a virus as evidenced by the annual flu season which kills thousands each and every year.
#20 | POSTED BY MSGT

Actually. Utilizing masks would probably cut down on the annual transmission of the flu virus which would cut down death related to the sickness.

Face it Trumpers. Masks aren't the problem. You are.

#24 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-08-09 03:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 6

Same thing applies for constantly telling people you are smarter than they are.

If the shoe fits.

#25 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-08-09 03:45 PM | Reply

"Not anymore, Tor."

There is nothing to prevent States from controlling who enters them during a pandemic and the same is true on the county level.

#26 | Posted by Tor at 2020-08-09 04:29 PM | Reply

The same people who won't wear masks also don't want to wear seatbelts or motorcycle helmets. They get pissed that they are looked down upon for insulting minorities, gays, etc., calling it "political correctness" (I just call it being decent to other people). They are just selfish -------- who don't think anybody should be able to tell them what to do. Doesn't matter to them if their actions harm other people.

#27 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2020-08-09 04:30 PM | Reply

There is nothing to prevent States from controlling who enters them during a pandemic and the same is true on the county level.
#26 | POSTED BY TOR

Group up.

We can't even keep illegals out of the country, fool.

Seriously. Grow up.

#28 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-09 05:49 PM | Reply

Also Tor you're channeling Trump when you are blaming the governors and not blaming Trump.

Are you so dumb that you don't know what you're doing.

Or do you think we are so dumb that we don't know what you're doing.

#29 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-09 06:07 PM | Reply

Are those the same people that react violently when police try to protect Federal buildings?

#30 | Posted by visitor_ at 2020-08-09 06:55 PM | Reply

Are those the same people that react violently when police try to protect Federal buildings?

#31 | Posted by visitor_ at 2020-08-09 06:55 PM | Reply

"We can't even keep illegals out of the country, fool."

Someone forgot to take his medication.

#32 | Posted by Tor at 2020-08-09 07:13 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Doesn't matter to them if their actions harm other people.
#27 | POSTED BY WHODAMAN

I find this to be accurate.

My fiance and I (San Diego) made plans to visit her family (Minnesota) at the end of August. We had no idea they were planning on going to Sturgis.

Now it's an issue. Not just for us, but my fiance's cousin was going to visit with her 7 month old. Now, all that is on hold. We are demanding her parents get tested before we fly out.

The selfishness of these people is extraordinary. And I guess you can blame it on their perception of reality (as it's been distorted by the likes of Trump and Fox News), we still have to consider the consequences of their decisions.

Odds are, they will not relent. And this will be the beginning of a intra-family political fight that could very well lead to us not introducing our child to his/her own grandparents until they acquiesce.

Never thought we'd be here, but here we are. People are incredibly selfish and it's expounded in this current environment. At least by some, and it just so happens that those making up that sum are Trump supporters.

We are ------.

#33 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-08-09 08:38 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

I'd say ~10% of San Diegans wear a mask in public these days. At least that's my experience in PB.

The in-laws should be demanding you get tested too. :)

#34 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-09 10:41 PM | Reply

It's irresponsible to attend Sturgis but flying from San Diego to Minnesota is not a problem. OMG.

#35 | Posted by visitor_ at 2020-08-09 11:00 PM | Reply

Come on.

It boils down to three things, Visitor_

Indoor/Outdoor, Crowd size, and if people are wearing PPE.

I'd say the airline flight, despite the recirc air, wins.

#36 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-09 11:15 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The air in an airplane isn't the issue IMHO. It's clean and it's not recycled. Only a part of it is, and through HEPA filters. Typically the air is replaced every 3 minutes on a commercial airline. The issue is when someone sneezes on you, is sitting right next to you and does something "unhygienic," you touch surfaces that aren't clean, or if you use the lavatory. That's bad.

I was considering flying until they started filling the plane up - and put passengers back in the middle seat. Of course it became academic since the country I was planning on going to won't let US citizens in any longer. My angst about flying promptly ended. Problem solved.

#37 | Posted by YAV at 2020-08-09 11:28 PM | Reply

Same thing applies for constantly telling people you are smarter than they are.

#22 | POSTED BY LEFTCOASTLAWYER

Telling somebody they're stupid isn't the same thing as saying I'm smarter.

Here's your sigh, ------.

#38 | Posted by jpw at 2020-08-10 12:57 AM | Reply

One cannot crush/stop a virus as evidenced by the annual flu season which kills thousands each and every year.

#20 | POSTED BY MSGT

Or we could look at small pox or polio.

Or measles in the US before the anti-vaxxers reared their ignorant heads.

#39 | Posted by jpw at 2020-08-10 12:59 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Another SHUT IT ALL DOWN thread. If you can protest without causing an outbreak, there are many socially distanced and mask compatible activities we can continue to enjoy and not have to go to extremist measures.

#40 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2020-08-10 07:11 AM | Reply

Small pox, measles and polio all have vaccines.

#41 | Posted by visitor_ at 2020-08-10 08:32 AM | Reply

Sitz, we did it your way and that's why we're in the trouble we're in. You and your ilk demanded we open up way too early. You and your undisciplined "Freedumb and Libeerty" idiots put us in this mess. All lead by a moron in the WH. And here you are, again, bringing up protesting that didn't add to the increase (as evidenced by NY and DC) into the fray to make this political and ideological.

Unfortunately Sturgis says it all.

Personally I wear a mask when I go out. Other people do not. they refuse. They're adamant. I still have morons going door to door politically canvassing without masks. It makes my decision on who NOT to vote for easy.

So if you won't issue a mask mandate (Trump won't) and if you won't socially distance, especially in restaurants, and you won't shut down bars and nightclubs, then the only option is shut it all down and this time MAKE IT COUNT.

Don't piss it all away prematurely. Again.

Everything we're experiencing was predicted. Expected. Posted about. What's happening was obviously going to happen.

Visitor: Read the frikken title at least: "...Until Vaccines Arrive(s)"

#42 | Posted by YAV at 2020-08-10 08:53 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Sorry Sitz,
I attributed those beliefs to you, and that I think, from all you've posted would be incorrect. I should have generalized the response and not said you hold any of those beliefs except the specifically cited 'protest" point. That one has been used by Trumplicans over and over and unfortunatly I stereotyped you into that group. That was incorrect and wrong on my part.

#43 | Posted by YAV at 2020-08-10 09:06 AM | Reply

Another SHUT IT ALL DOWN thread. If you can protest without causing an outbreak, there are many socially distanced and mask compatible activities we can continue to enjoy and not have to go to extremist measures.

#40 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

Stop making this ignorant ass comment.

Seriously.

It's ignorant as ---- and you sound like an idiot when you constantly spout it.

#44 | Posted by jpw at 2020-08-10 09:49 AM | Reply

Small pox, measles and polio all have vaccines.

#41 | POSTED BY VISITOR_

So? We still "crushed" those viruses. Two of them on a global scale.

There's a point hidden there that I intentionally left out because I want to see who's knowledgeable to get it.

------- an easy explanation for why the original post is laughable.

#45 | Posted by jpw at 2020-08-10 09:50 AM | Reply

Short of a vaccine....how do we truly really ever outrun a "let everyone get it" scenario?

If we shut it down....can we kill it meaning that we can keep all of us from eventually contracting it?

or is the reality of everyone contracting it the eventual outcome?

#46 | Posted by eberly at 2020-08-10 09:53 AM | Reply

That was incorrect and wrong on my part.

#43 | POSTED BY YAV AT 2020-08-10 09:06 AM | FLAG:

Right on. I've been voluntarily masked up since mid-March. I have a fun and growing collection of them. Sturgis is definitely massively, but it's an indoor-outdoor gathering and they are going to be a big outbreak. I'd be the only bar in Sturgis mandating masks, outdoor service only, and I'd probably get stabbed by a 1%er.

Protests here have all been outdoor affairs. I just find some absurdity to the politics of allowing the giant outdoor-only protests but banning outdoor-only, socially-distanced, contact-less, personal tent only, bring your own food only, camping on private property in the same areas.

#47 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2020-08-10 09:57 AM | Reply

then the only option is shut it all down and this time MAKE IT COUNT.

#42 | POSTED BY YAV AT 2020-08-10 08:53 AM | FLAG: Stop making this

ignorant ass comment.
Seriously.
It's ignorant as ---- and you sound like an idiot when you constantly spout it.

#44 | POSTED BY JPW AT 2020-08-10 09:49 AM | FLAG:

lol. Tony has said yeah, shut it all down. Yav too. You're the only person pretending that's not the ultimatum.

#48 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2020-08-10 09:58 AM | Reply

I made my declaration with conditions.
Remove those conditions and a shut down wouldn't be necessary.

JPW and I are in agreement on what it takes to stop the spread.
I suspect you are, too.

Let me repeat what I said above:

"... if you won't

#49 | Posted by YAV at 2020-08-10 10:09 AM | Reply

Full context:
"... if you won't issue a mask mandate (Trump won't) and if you won't socially distance, especially in restaurants, and you won't shut down bars and nightclubs, then the only option is shut it all down and this time MAKE IT COUNT."

#50 | Posted by YAV at 2020-08-10 10:09 AM | Reply

lol. Tony has said yeah, shut it all down. Yav too. You're the only person pretending that's not the ultimatum.

#48 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

Actually, I've said I'm OK with issuing guidelines recommending protests be put on hold until the virus is under control.

Not because there's any significant data supporting the events as sources of spread, but because I'm a proponent of as stringent an action as possible.

The reason why it's a ignorant as hell statement is that indoor vs outdoor is a very critical difference. You're ignoring the conclusions from the vast majority of studies to keep harping on protests.

Studies have shown that the bulk of spread is coming from indoor contacts, ie bars and restaurants. That is why that should be the focus of control measures going forward.

#51 | Posted by jpw at 2020-08-10 10:23 AM | Reply

#50 | POSTED BY YAV AT 2020-08-10 10:09 AM | FLAG:

#51 | POSTED BY JPW AT 2020-08-10 10:23 AM | FLAG:

There is where we differ and it's as simple as variable vs constant. "If he". I'm at "He won't". I believe you would agree he will not. If you don't, okay, you're more hopeful and want it to be a variable. I respect that. Either way, we can move on to the "shut it all down" which is a very strong right wing position to take. Which is why I reference a protest. They haven't measurably contributed to outbreaks, only suspected, and their are strong arguments they are constitutionally protected.. so even those? You're saying yes. I say daamn, that's harsh and I don't think it's legal, but I see where you're coming from. I don't think you can or should. I also acknowledge that opens up a huge can of worms. If you can do that, what else can you do? Thousands of socially distanced outdoor activities, many of which were banned under the last round of stay at home orders and permit cancellations.

So far our local politics are still playing ping pong, state to county/city and back. Gotta love the 2 party system.

#52 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2020-08-10 10:45 AM | Reply

I never said to go so far as to ban them.

That will never pass legal muster and is a waste of time.

But updates to guidelines should include wording suggesting protests be put on hold until the virus is better controlled.

#53 | Posted by jpw at 2020-08-10 10:48 AM | Reply

"But updates to guidelines should include wording suggesting protests be put on hold until the virus is better controlled."

You can make all the suggestions you want, but the bottom line is that the individual ultimately decides if the threat from COVID is greater than how you respond to it.

I was in Amsterdam not too long ago. I asked our server at the hotel what steps the NL government had taken, and how long they had been re-opened. She said they never closed, but the people in Amsterdam generally followed the recommendations put forth by the government on how to slow the spread.

People don't have to ask permission to isolate. You can always choose to do that. But it's a choice, and for many the value in staying home simply doesn't justify the cost. Whether it's going to work, or a bar, or a protest, or whatever.

#54 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-10 12:24 PM | Reply

"or is the reality of everyone contracting it the eventual outcome?"

That's what I would plan on. Right now, everything seems to be hinging on the possibility of an effective vaccine in a few months time. What if that doesn't happen? Just lock the country up indefinitely?

#55 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-10 12:35 PM | Reply

Such either this or that thinking.

#56 | Posted by YAV at 2020-08-10 12:42 PM | Reply

But it's a choice, and for many the value in staying home simply doesn't justify the cost. Whether it's going to work, or a bar, or a protest, or whatever.
#54 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

And without those people making such an assessment, we wouldn't be in the situation we are in. George Floyd died in late May. Protests came afterwards. We could have shut this ---- down for six weeks WELL before that. Protests are now a spreading issue, but they didn't have to be.

#57 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-08-10 01:08 PM | Reply

Just lock the country up indefinitely?
#55 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Bars (being the highest risk environment to contract/spread)? Yes.

#58 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-08-10 01:09 PM | Reply

"You can make all the suggestions you want, but the bottom line is that the individual ultimately decides if the threat from COVID is greater than how you respond to it."

And that's why the death toll in America dwarfs anywhere in Europe or Asia, except possibly India.

It's a sign of how much freedom we have.

Just like America's high rate gun violence is a sign of how much freedom we have compared to Europe and Asia.

MadBomber can literally measure the "freedom" by the number of dead bodies. Because All Lives Matter.

The GOP is a death cult.

#59 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-10 01:19 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"She said they never closed, but the people in Amsterdam generally followed the recommendations put forth by the government on how to slow the spread."

Freedom loving Americans don't follow government recommendations. That's for liberals and betas.

Here in San Diego fewer than 25% of the people are wearing masks down on the boardwalk.

It's almost like the virus hates us for our freedoms.

How do freedom loving Americans respond?

By giving the virus more opportunities to spread.

The GOP is a death cult.

#60 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-10 01:25 PM | Reply

I am sorry to break it to you folks.

The only way to crush this virus now is to crush trumpism at the polls.

Even then it will be touch and go for months if not years.

Mostly it will be "go" (the the grave) for hundreds of thousands of Americans.

#61 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-08-10 01:40 PM | Reply

The only way to crush this virus now is to crush trumpism at the polls.

#61 | POSTED BY DONNERBOY AT 2020-08-10 01:40 PM | FLAG:

Do you believe that somebody not currently wearing a mask will put them on because President Biden said so? That seems like an extremely optimistic outlook.

#62 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2020-08-10 02:03 PM | Reply

"Do you believe that somebody not currently wearing a mask will put them on because President Biden said so? That seems like an extremely optimistic outlook."

I disagree. At the least, the sitting President won't be lying about the science, and urging as many folks as possible to avoid masks, which will certainly turn the macro dial.

#63 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-08-10 02:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Do you believe that somebody not currently wearing a mask will put them on because President Biden said so? That seems like an extremely optimistic outlook.
#62 | POSTED BYSITZKRIEG

When did expectations of leadership and of human nature get so low?

Monkey-see monkey-do is how humans have behaved for as long as there's been humans.

When the President puts on a mask, other people will too.

Not everyone of course, but some still look for leaders for lead.

Thats's the basis of our Democratic Republic system of government.

#64 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-10 02:10 PM | Reply

"Do you believe that somebody not currently wearing a mask will put them on because President Biden said so? That seems like an extremely optimistic outlook."

They'll be shamed into wearing one. Just like how disco died, people were shamed until it was finally dead.

#65 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-08-10 02:27 PM | Reply

"Bars (being the highest risk environment to contract/spread)? Yes."

How is a bar any different than a restaurant? Or any other indoor establishment?

And I'm not really a bar kind of person, but I spend a lot of time in my local biergartens.

#66 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-10 02:30 PM | Reply

"Here in San Diego fewer than 25% of the people are wearing masks down on the boardwalk."

What sort of decision calculus led them to that outcome?

I'm guessing that many are young and healthy, and weight the risks associated with contracting COVID against the losses from remaining in isolation.

And the boardwalk is an outdoor facility. I wasn't aware of masks being required outdoors in any country. Certainly nowhere I've been in recent months.

#67 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-10 02:33 PM | Reply

"What sort of decision calculus led them to that outcome?"

Ignorance of asymptomatic contagion, for one.

Misinterpreting health stats for another.

Ignoring the long-term challenges for a third.

And finally, sticking it to the libz and the scientists.

#68 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-08-10 02:35 PM | Reply

"George Floyd died in late May. Protests came afterwards. We could have shut this ---- down for six weeks WELL before that. Protests are now a spreading issue, but they didn't have to be."

Each state had it's own policies, but I think most states imposed initial restrictions on/around 12 March. I know the restrictions in Vegas were virtually identical to those in Germany.

#69 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-10 02:36 PM | Reply

"What sort of decision calculus led them to that outcome?"

The kind that you say is morally correct, since it happened voluntarily.

#70 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-10 02:41 PM | Reply

"Ignorance of asymptomatic contagion, for one."

Unlikely. Unless they haven't watched the news since mid-March.

As I've said before, I think they're weighing the risk of COVID with whatever they would lose by staying in isolation. And for those who are at low statistical risk, they may not see any reason to isolate. Just like getting into an airplane to conduct a training sortie, or getting into your car to drive to work. There is always risk associated with those activities, yet people still do them.

"And finally, sticking it to the libz and the scientists."

Maybe some, but I don't think that the young people attending parties in LA or at the Lake of the Ozarks had a political motive when they decided to do those things.

#71 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-10 02:43 PM | Reply

"The kind that you say is morally correct, since it happened voluntarily."

It's not an incorrect decision. They elected to accept that risk. Just as others choose not to.

#72 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-10 02:44 PM | Reply

How is a bar any different than a restaurant? Or any other indoor establishment?

Less space between patrons.

Drunker tends to mean louder. Louder means greater dispersal of material from the lungs/nasal passages.

But yes, restaurants aren't very good either.

#73 | Posted by jpw at 2020-08-10 02:49 PM | Reply

And for those who are at low statistical risk, they may not see any reason to isolate.

Low statistical risk of what?

It's not an incorrect decision. They elected to accept that risk. Just as others choose not to.

#72 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

You keep saying this as if that little gem of ignorance is true.

It's a contagious disease. There's no such thing as making a decision for just oneself.

#74 | Posted by jpw at 2020-08-10 02:52 PM | Reply

"Unlikely. Unless they haven't watched the news since mid-March."

You're joking, right? Odds are they can't even define the term.

"I think they're weighing the risk of COVID with whatever they would lose by staying in isolation."

And not bringing into the equation how many people they could be infecting in the meantime.

"There is always risk associated with those activities, yet people still do them."

But little risk for those who cross their paths, unlike with COVID. 97,000 kids tested positive for infections in the last two weeks. Did they get it from going out to bars? Or from being the kids of folks who went out to bars?

Finally, what are the long-term residual effects of COVID on children? Oh, that's right...we don't know. But they sure make cute little canaries, don't they?

#75 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-08-10 02:54 PM | Reply

"I think they're weighing the risk of COVID with whatever they would lose by staying in isolation."

Recently, I argued here that most people don't see a shut-down or stay at home orders as being good for the economy. That folks saw it as necessary to minimize cases, deaths, and overwhelming the health care system....not that it was good for the economy.

I agree one leads to the other and that they're related but I still don't think most people do. They see health, healthcare, etc as one thing...and the economy as another.

#76 | Posted by eberly at 2020-08-10 02:56 PM | Reply

"Just as others choose not to."

You keep saying that as it it's possible. I just chipped a back tooth, and need dental work. How can I do that and continue my quarantine?

#77 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-08-10 02:56 PM | Reply

And I'm not really a bar kind of person, but I spend a lot of time in my local biergartens.
#66 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

I figured that. If you can't understand how a bar would be considered the worst environment to be in re: Covid-19, and yes FAR worse than restaurants, you clearly don't drink or, at a minimum, do not frequent bars.

You don't even have to read this article to get a clue: www.insidehook.com

#78 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-08-10 02:56 PM | Reply

JPW,

Not that it'll register, but I just gave you a Newsworthy for #74.

It's a contagious disease. There's no such thing as making a decision for just oneself.

-bears repeating

#79 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-08-10 02:58 PM | Reply

It's not an incorrect decision. They elected to accept that risk. Just as others choose not to.
#72 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

When a person murders someone, that wasn't an incorrect decision either. Because it was voluntary.

Murder carries risk; murderers choose to accept that risk.

#80 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-10 03:20 PM | Reply

It's a contagious disease. There's no such thing as making a decision for just oneself.

Repeating Danforth's Newsworthy, also. How can this not be painfully obvious by now?

#81 | Posted by YAV at 2020-08-10 04:53 PM | Reply

But updates to guidelines should include wording suggesting protests be put on hold until the virus is better controlled.
#53 | POSTED BY JPW AT 2020-08-10 10:48 AM

And what are you going to do when people ignore those guidelines? Swing your purse at them?

Something like 1/3 of Americans have already decided they'll refuse a vaccine even if it was free. Guessing many/most of those are on the right.

So stubborn asses on the left and stubborn asses on the right are going to ---- all over the guidelines no matter what.

#82 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2020-08-10 04:53 PM | Reply

"How can this not be painfully obvious by now?"

Ask JPW if the Second Amendment is the reason we have so much gun violence, and you'll see an example of how the painfully obvious is ignored by otherwise smart people.
And this is not to knock JPW, but Zatoichi was much better at ignoring it.

#83 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-10 04:55 PM | Reply

"Something like 1/3 of Americans have already decided they'll refuse a vaccine"

Who needs Herd Immunity when you're a Self-Made Man?

#84 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-10 04:56 PM | Reply

When the President puts on a mask, other people will too.

#64 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2020-08-10 02:10 PM | FLAG:

This is so optimistic it is heart warming. I think you are all way off and partisan politics will keep 20%+ unmasked.

#85 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2020-08-10 06:09 PM | Reply

"I think you are all way off and partisan politics will keep 20%+ unmasked."

Okey, now do the macro. If 33% don't wear one now, and 20% don't wear one under President B, what happens to the contagion rate?

#86 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-08-10 06:13 PM | Reply

"This is so optimistic it is heart warming"

Monkey-see monkey-do is hardly optimistic.
It's human nature.

#87 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-10 06:35 PM | Reply

"It's a contagious disease. There's no such thing as making a decision for just oneself."

Yes, there is. Because I can't choose to expose you to risk. In order for me to expose you, you must choose to be exposed as well. It's not a one way street.

#88 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-11 12:11 AM | Reply

"And not bringing into the equation how many people they could be infecting in the meantime."

You seem to be presupposing that the young people at the Lake of the Ozarks or the large parties we've seen on the news were unaware of COVID. I don't think that's possible.

#89 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-11 12:12 AM | Reply

"Because I can't choose to expose you to risk."

That's like saying you can drive drunk and not expose anyone to risk.
You know that's wrong, but now you'll find a way to convince yourself it's right, while you get drunk and troll us.

#90 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-11 12:16 AM | Reply

"But little risk for those who cross their paths, unlike with COVID. 97,000 kids tested positive for infections in the last two weeks. Did they get it from going out to bars? Or from being the kids of folks who went out to bars?"

Bars. Or Protests. Or Work. Or whatever.

But statistically, those same kids have a better chance of dying on the trip in to school than they do of dying from COVID.

"Finally, what are the long-term residual effects of COVID on children? Oh, that's right...we don't know."

Well, we have somewhere in the neighborhood of 350k representative examples to observe.

#91 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-11 12:17 AM | Reply

"You keep saying that as it it's possible. I just chipped a back tooth, and need dental work. How can I do that and continue my quarantine?"

You live with a chipped tooth.

#92 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-11 12:18 AM | Reply

"I figured that. If you can't understand how a bar would be considered the worst environment to be in re: Covid-19, and yes FAR worse than restaurants, you clearly don't drink or, at a minimum, do not frequent bars."

What I see here is that many of the tables have been removed to provide spacing, and only a couple of the urinals are open in the bathrooms. That seems reasonable to me.

#93 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-11 12:21 AM | Reply

"Repeating Danforth's Newsworthy, also. How can this not be painfully obvious by now?"

AIDS was (is) as a contagious disease as well.

So how is it that only around 35K contract HIV every year? I'm going to say that it's because most people avoid activities that could result in catching HIV.

Anyone want to disagree?

#94 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-11 12:28 AM | Reply

"AIDS was (is) as a contagious disease as well."

That's got to be the dumbest comparison, ever.

For it to be equal, after having dangerous sex in a gay bar, the guy would have to come home and f^kk his grandmother.

#95 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-08-11 12:57 AM | Reply

"AIDS was (is) as a contagious disease as well."

Not as contagious as COVID-19.

#96 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-11 12:58 AM | Reply

"I'm going to say that it's because most people avoid activities that could result in catching HIV."

Really, most people avoid sexual intercourse?

#97 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-11 12:59 AM | Reply

"You live with a chipped tooth."

I can't. It provides a pathway for bacteria to get to my heart, and I've already had a heart attack.

Any other ideas for existence without coming into contact with others, Einstein?

#98 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-08-11 01:30 AM | Reply

So how is it that only around 35K contract HIV every year? I'm going to say that it's because most people avoid activities that could result in catching HIV.

If only SARS-CoV-2 was as difficult to transmit as HIV. If only. What a different world we'd all be in right now. Not to mention we have medications for HIV that reduce the viral load to undetectable and untransmissible levels. That isn't going to happen with this disease. Best case we get a vaccine that works and get enough people to get it to create some kind of herd immunity.

The lower the effectivity of the vaccine, the higher the number of people needing to get it is going to be to achieve herd immunity. That's if the vaccine's immunity lasts.

So you want people to stay locked up, isolated, lviing in bubbles for how long? All so you can go about living your life normally, unhindered? All under the mistaken belief that people like you won't suffer long-term damage from even "asymptomatic" infection?

You are in a fortunate location with a government that's made some good decisions in a society that has done the right thing. Do not pretend to know what it's like to live here in a pariah state where it's so bad we can't leave the country. Don't tell us what to do. We see how your ideas work - we're living them. Brought to us by an Orange Idiot in a White House.

#99 | Posted by YAV at 2020-08-11 06:53 AM | Reply

"I can't. It provides a pathway for bacteria to get to my heart, and I've already had a heart attack. Any other ideas for existence without coming into contact with others, Einstein?"

You conduct your own risk calculus as to which poses a greater threat to your life. A chipped tooth or COVID. And for each individual, the answer to that question is going to be different?

#100 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-11 08:10 AM | Reply

"For it to be equal, after having dangerous sex in a gay bar, the guy would have to come home and f^kk his grandmother."

OK.

Disturbing imagery aside, who would you hold responsible if the grandmother (or anyone else for that matter) caught AIDS? Would she carry any responsibility in catching the disease, or would it solely be on the shoulders of the dude in question? The one you, for some reason immediately (and homophobically) imply that the irresponsible activity was sex at a gay bar.

#101 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-11 08:14 AM | Reply

"So you want people to stay locked up, isolated, lviing in bubbles for how long? All so you can go about living your life normally, unhindered? All under the mistaken belief that people like you won't suffer long-term damage from even "asymptomatic" infection?"

No, I want people to evaluate the risk for themselves. Because for the vast majority of people they face little risk. You seem to be implying that the actions required to minimize risk to the most vulnerable should be extended even to those who don't care about the risk.

So yes, if you're scared of the virus, and you choose to, you stay locked away until such time you feel comfortable coming out. And that may be a very long time.

#102 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-11 08:18 AM | Reply

Monkey-see monkey-do is hardly optimistic.
It's human nature.

#87 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2020-08-10 06:35 PM | FLAG:

I like how in your mind you can get a Dem president in charge and it just deletes all of the politics out of it. I think you can flip less than 1% that's not already masked up. At least 20% won't mask up, probably 35% about what it seems like now will continue to not. Some Police agencies have even put out letters saying they will not enforce mask rules, call the health department it's their job.

#103 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2020-08-11 08:19 AM | Reply

No, I want people to evaluate the risk for themselves.

A risk you want to increase because of your selfishness.

Because for the vast majority of people they face little risk.

Define "vast majority" then define "little risk." Especially given we know that even asymptomatic cases are showing lung damage and underlying organ damage, and we don't know what the long-term effects are going to be. globalbiodefense.com

But feel free to take your risks as you are allowed in your Country where things are fine. We might be doing that here, too, had the Republicans not made it all political.

What a luxury you have.

#104 | Posted by YAV at 2020-08-11 08:54 AM | Reply

"No, I want people to evaluate the risk for themselves."

That's not it.

What you want is people to evaluate the risk to themselves.

While ignoring the risks they pose for everyone else.

Just like if you don't want to get hit by a drunk driver, it's simple: Don't drive. Maybe stay off the sidewalks too.

There's simply no way you support drunk driving laws based on the reasoning you've advanced here. What basis could such freedom-hating laws possibly have, in your mind?

#105 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-11 12:07 PM | Reply

"A risk you want to increase because of your selfishness."

Selfish?

If I meet up with a group of people, how am I being selfish? They chose to expose themselves to potential risk as much as I did.

On the contrary, it's very selfish for you to demand that someone stay home so that you can enjoy an elevated sense of (false) security.

I guess that's it anyway. It's either that or the opinion that if everyone can't do it safely, then no one should be allowed to.

#106 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-11 01:51 PM | Reply

"While ignoring the risks they pose for everyone else."

You must make a conscious decision to put yourself in a position where you are potentially exposed to risk. Fact.

"Just like if you don't want to get hit by a drunk driver, it's simple: Don't drive. Maybe stay off the sidewalks too."

That's 100% true. You won't die in a transportation accident if you stay away from roads, airplanes or waterways.

And for most people those things pose a far higher risk than COVID. Fact.

#107 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-11 01:53 PM | Reply

"There's simply no way you support drunk driving laws based on the reasoning you've advanced here."

Why?

Drunk driving laws may reduce the number of fatalities and injuries, but if you chasing zero risk you'll never get there.

Everyone knows that. But Everyone also knows that the risks associated roadways, airplanes, and waterways are so low that avoiding them, and effectively isolating yourself, isn't worth the cost.

#108 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-11 01:56 PM | Reply

If I meet up with a group of people, how am I being selfish? They chose to expose themselves to potential risk as much as I did.

Because (assuming nobody is distancing or wearing a mask) one of you may pass the virus on to someone else, who may then pass it on to other unwitting people?

Are you still this clueless about how viruses spread?

#109 | Posted by JOE at 2020-08-11 01:58 PM | Reply

"Because (assuming nobody is distancing or wearing a mask) one of you may pass the virus on to someone else, who may then pass it on to other unwitting people?"

Only if those other people exposed themselves to the same risk that we had exposed to each other.

The only exception being if expose myself to you without your consent, and you're physically attempting to maintain isolation.

#110 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-11 02:19 PM | Reply

went out to lunch with some of my reps today.

6 old ladies sitting next to us..3 of them using walkers. 75-85 in age...all of them.

People are crazy.

#111 | Posted by eberly at 2020-08-11 02:26 PM | Reply

Only if those other people exposed themselves to the same risk that we had exposed to each other.

Except when you cough all over the vegetables at the grocery store people need to go to.

Except when you actually get Covid and expose dozens of medical personnel who are forced to interact with you.

Except any number of circumstances that you routinely ignore because they don't fit your "personal responsibility" narrative.

#112 | Posted by JOE at 2020-08-11 02:42 PM | Reply

"Drunk driving laws may reduce the number of fatalities and injuries, but if you chasing zero risk you'll never get there."

Then stop telling people to chase zero risk, and start telling people to engage in sensible risk mitigation strategies.

So far, all you've done is tell people who don't have COVID-19 is stay home if they don't want to face the risk of COVID-19.

But people who don't have COVID-19 aren't the risk factor.

#113 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-11 03:10 PM | Reply

"Then stop telling people to chase zero risk, and start telling people to engage in sensible risk mitigation strategies."

"Sensible" varies from person to person. What would be sensible for an 80 year old diabetic is different from what would be sensible to an 18 year old college athlete.

"But people who don't have COVID-19 aren't the risk factor."

No, but they're the ones who would be potentially held at risk. Which is why it is up to them to remain isolated.

#114 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-12 12:25 AM | Reply

"Sensible" varies from person to person. What would be sensible for an 80 year old diabetic is different from what would be sensible to an 18 year old college athlete.

It's even more sensible when the 18 year old considers the 80 year old diabetic as a potential casualty of the 18 year old athlete's perspective of what is and is not sensible.

#115 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-08-12 12:37 AM | Reply

Which is why it is up to them to remain isolated.
#114 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

A significant portion of the workforce is considered in the vulnerable population as it relates to COVID-19 risks. It's not just retired geriatrics that would require quarantine while the COVID washes over those of us that are not high risk to lasting health effects of COVID infection. All those folks who are so pro-coverage for preexisting conditions as it relates to health coverage do so because they know someone who has a preexisting condition, significantly more often someone who is not considered 'elderly.'

Now couple that with the fact that 25% of California's teachers and staff are aged 55+. Requiring all of them to quarantine, including those less than 55 who also have a preexisting condition, while simultaneously demanding schools open for in-person learning is simply impractical. Unless the federal government is interested in funneling a ---- TON more monies to public education to hire more teachers (qualified applicants exist in a large pool) to fill these vacancies, you can expect our children to suffer regardless if they are at home or in the classroom.

#116 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-08-12 12:46 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Which is why it is up to them to remain isolated.
#114 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Drunk driving can be deadly.
For people who don't want to become victims, it is up to them to remain isolated.

#117 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-12 12:47 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"Which is why it is up to them to remain isolated."

In related news, if you don't like airborne illnesses, don't breathe.

Why do you keep pretending people who need medical care can "remain isolated"? Am I expected to cap my own tooth?

#118 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-08-12 01:03 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It's up to Anne Frank to remain isolated.
--Oberst MadBomber

#119 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-08-12 01:09 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

#119 NW

First they came for the Boomers, but PissyBomber didn't speak out because he wasn't a Boomer....

(Apologies to Martin Niemller.)

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

#120 | Posted by Corky at 2020-08-12 01:37 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

SNOOFY

Re isolation, for some reason I'm reminded of a funny quote from years ago:

"If you don't like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk!"

#121 | Posted by Twinpac at 2020-08-12 03:28 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"It's even more sensible when the 18 year old considers the 80 year old diabetic as a potential casualty of the 18 year old athlete's perspective of what is and is not sensible."

Which is why the sensible 18 year old avoids bothering old people in isolation. It's also why the 80 year old diabetic is in isolation in the first place. To avoid the 18 year old.

#122 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-12 06:26 AM | Reply

"A significant portion of the workforce is considered in the vulnerable population as it relates to COVID-19 risks."

If you are part of a vulnerable population, and you don't want to die, you need to be in isolation. Period. It doesn't matter if you're young or old.

#123 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-08-12 06:33 AM | Reply

Am I expected to cap my own tooth? POSTED BY DANFORTH

Extract it yourself, Castaway style.

Wilson!!!!

#124 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2020-08-12 06:51 AM | Reply

"I have my right to Freedumb and Libbeerty!" - Typhoid Mary (a.k.a. MadBomber)

#125 | Posted by YAV at 2020-08-12 09:13 AM | Reply

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