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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Wednesday, October 14, 2020

The White House has embraced a declaration by a group of scientists urging free spread of the coronavirus among healthy young people in an effort to achieve "herd immunity" through widespread infection instead of a vaccine, The New York Times reports. (D)uring a White House call on Monday two White House officials cited an Oct. 4 petition titled The Great Barrington Declaration, with more than 9,000 signatories worldwide that condemns lockdowns and pushes for businesses and schools to reopen to achieve herd immunity, suggesting that young people are at "minimal risk of death" from coronavirus.

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Responding to news of the declaration during a CNN interview on Wednesday morning, Dr. William Haseltine, a former professor at Harvard Medical School and Harvard School of Public Health, expressed concern that President Trump was being advised on herd immunity theory.

"I'm extremely concerned that the president is being advised by people who speak of herd immunity," Haseltine said, adding: "herd immunity is another word for mass murder."

If this is Trump's closing argument to the American people, I think that the Biden's can call their moving service for some latter-January work.

That sound you hear is another flock of seniors moving their rockers, canes, hovercarts, and wheel chairs as far away from Trump as humanly possible. Dr. Haseltine is correct, any attempt to achieve herd immunity will result in millions of unnecessary deaths and thousands upon thousands of others to have compromised health for whatever will be the remainder of their lives.

Trump surviving his bout with Covid is the worst thing that could have happened to the rest of America rightly living in fear of contracting this virus since he now sees mitigation as needless and counterproductive while U.S. daily infections continue to climb day after day.

#1 | Posted by tonyroma at 2020-10-14 09:31 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

From the declaration...

...The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection. ...

A "compassionate approach" for whom?

Who determines what the proper balance is between risks and benefits?

Why the focus merely upon "minimal risk of death"? What about spreading COVID-19 from those with "minimal risk of death" to those who are more prone to die? Is this declaration just another way to kill off senior citizens, similar to what the Lt Gov of Texas proposed?

What about the other long-term effects that COVID-19 has shown to have?

But my biggest question: is herd immunity obtainable?


#2 | Posted by LampLighter at 2020-10-14 09:32 AM | Reply

No one even knows if herd immunity is a real thing because we already have multiple people who have contracted COVID more than once after being virus free for months. Herd immunity is a term that is normally only used after a high percentage of a population is VACCINATED. No one dies when it is done after vaccination, millions will die from COVID19, once again Donald Trump doesn't actually listen to scientists and just pursues idiotic ideas. The man is clearly insane and should be immediately removed from office.

#3 | Posted by danni at 2020-10-14 09:34 AM | Reply

Donald Trump is a criminally lazy POS and wants people to die to cover his ass.

We've never had a man this awful in the presidency. He has the loyalty of a viper and the conscience of a toad.

#4 | Posted by Zed at 2020-10-14 09:35 AM | Reply

More criminal negligence by the most incompetent and disastrous presidency ever.

#5 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-10-14 10:45 AM | Reply

"The White House has embraced a declaration by a group of scientists urging free spread of the coronavirus among healthy young people"

And those young people would have zero contact with older people. Riiiight! What a load of crap!

#6 | Posted by danni at 2020-10-14 10:48 AM | Reply

This is insane. I hope Dr. Fauci resigns immediately and joins the Lincolns.

To say something is insane in the Trump era is saying something.

Beyond insane... now is okay if I secretly wished he would've died?

It's not like "nobody could have seen this coming." Right Susan Collins?

#7 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-10-14 10:51 AM | Reply

Criminal negligence.

#8 | Posted by Nixon at 2020-10-14 10:51 AM | Reply

The GOP is a Death Cult.

#9 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-10-14 11:03 AM | Reply

"It's not like "nobody could have seen this coming." Right Susan Collins?"

Susan Collins hopes the 215,000 dead have "learned their lesson".

#10 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-10-14 11:04 AM | Reply

You can get reinfected with Covid-19 but may still have immunity. Let's explain.
www.vox.com

...A 25-year-old man in Nevada was confirmed to be reinfected with the coronavirus. But reinfections so far appear to be rare " and immunity is complex.

Researchers at the University of Nevada have reported that a 25-year-old man was reinfected in June with SARS-CoV-2, the virus the causes Covid-19. He joins a handful of other confirmed cases of reinfection in people without immune disorders " in Belgium, the Netherlands, Hong Kong, and Ecuador " where researchers have demonstrated that the genetic signature of the second infection did not match that of the first.

According to a new study on the Nevada case, published in The Lancet Infectious Diseases journal, the patient first tested positive in April, and then tested negative for the virus twice. In June, 48 days later, "the patient was hospitalized and tested positive for a second time," according to the authors, and he experienced severe symptoms. There were major genetic differences between the two infections, suggesting that the patient got the virus twice. (Since then, the patient has recovered.)

The report is in line with what immunity experts have been telling us is possible with this virus: that reinfection is possible and, to some extent, expected, with a coronavirus. But it also shows us how much we still have to learn: about how much protection a single infection can confer, about what exactly a robust long-duration immune response looks like, and about what determines the severity of disease in a second infection. ...


Interesting article.


#11 | Posted by LampLighter at 2020-10-14 11:08 AM | Reply

We are entering a third spike in cases and several red states, ND & WI among them are out of ICU beds. For a disease that kills "nobody," it's still killing at least 700 Americans per day.

#12 | Posted by _Gunslinger_ at 2020-10-14 11:12 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

What happened to "We will have a vaccine by election day"? What happened to 200 million vaccine doses by January 1?

#13 | Posted by Sycophant at 2020-10-14 11:18 AM | Reply

Is this declaration just another way to kill off senior citizens, similar to what the Lt Gov of Texas proposed?

#2 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER

The Republican plan to save Social Security and Medicare.

#14 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2020-10-14 11:18 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The herd immunity is a sort of economic self-sabotage considering how much money is made propping up the target audience. Pharma alone makes a lot of money keeping people alive past their natural expiration date.

BTW... opiates are still an enormous problem during this pandemic.

#15 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2020-10-14 11:21 AM | Reply

Is this Donald's "Scarface" moment?

#16 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-10-14 11:34 AM | Reply

I just have to post this neat little story of a coworker's family.

So trying to make this short, sister-in-law had to quarantine from direct exposure at work. Had some symptoms but wrote them off as "allergies" since she has those and never tested. It then comes out she didn't want to take the chance of testing positive because it meant two things - one the kids would have been pulled from sports and more time at home and that time would have extended beyond the federal COVID paid holiday of 2-weeks. His parents are constantly helping them out running their kids around and such. Of course nobody wears masks during these interactions. And now a couple weeks after quarantine ended for her, his mother ends up in the hospital with Covid pneumonia...

Pretty typical scenario that I can see playing out everywhere if you ask me. "Herd" immunity is such an ignorant thing to hope for in this country. We don't even know if it is even possible with this disease and let's face it Americans are largely selfish people (far more are than are not IMHO). There is no protecting of those at risk. BTW - according to the number the "at risk of severe cases" percent of the population is as large as 50% according to some articles I have been reading. Diabetes, Weight, Age, etc. - frankly with just those 3 I would bet it is over 50%.

#17 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2020-10-14 11:35 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

What is the answer? Shut it all down? Make mask wearing mandatory?
Who will enforce it and what happens to the arrestees that fight the arresters?
Anyone really think that cho bitem will make it happen?

#18 | Posted by phesterOBoyle at 2020-10-14 11:41 AM | Reply

"What is the answer? Shut it all down? Make mask wearing mandatory?"

Google "What the rest of the freaking industrialized world is doing to minimize the spread of COVID 19"

Actually, I'm sure good-faith CDC employees could do more than that too.

If there's any of them left that aren't bound and gagged in some random basement in Bethesda.

#19 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-10-14 11:45 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"What is the answer? Shut it all down? Make mask wearing mandatory? "

You've been told the answer over and over. How dense are you?

Testing tracing and distancing. It's not rocket science. It's medical science.

Oh. And stop lying. That would help a lot.

#20 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-10-14 11:50 AM | Reply

I'm in favor with any covid prevention measures.
Again... how do we deal with the meatheads that refuse to comply?
If they so much as touch a criminal, they will get sued or fired... So how would it be enforced?

#21 | Posted by phesterOBoyle at 2020-10-14 11:50 AM | Reply

"If there's any of them left that aren't bound and gagged in some random basement in Bethesda.
#19 | POSTED BY BOCAINK"

Don't say things like that. dunnerboy doesn't like lying.

#22 | Posted by phesterOBoyle at 2020-10-14 11:52 AM | Reply

Okay Pizzagate,

It was a joke dummy.

#23 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-10-14 12:01 PM | Reply

No surprise but that group of scientists are funded by the Koch brothers. Profits over people!

#24 | Posted by johnny_hotsauce at 2020-10-14 12:03 PM | Reply

"Again... how do we deal with the meatheads that refuse to comply?"

Send them to the border camps.

#25 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-10-14 12:08 PM | Reply

There's more important things than living.

#26 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-10-14 12:08 PM | Reply

"Send them to the border camps.
#25 | POSTED BY SNOOFY"

Good idea but it won't work. Once the word gets out, the liberal criminal lovers will howl.

#27 | Posted by phesterOBoyle at 2020-10-14 12:10 PM | Reply

No, they would cheer.

#28 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-10-14 12:10 PM | Reply

Where's Madbomber,I expect him to appear any time now to tell everyone what enlightened and wise policy this will be. He will cite BS statistics from Sweden and proclaim Trump a mighty genius for pushing this.

I sense him coming soon.

#29 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-10-14 12:12 PM | Reply

They would cheer when the arresting officers get fired and ruined for life.

#30 | Posted by phesterOBoyle at 2020-10-14 12:14 PM | Reply

"declaration by a group of scientists"

you Libs are always talking about believing the "science"

#31 | Posted by Maverick at 2020-10-14 12:14 PM | Reply

"I sense him coming soon.
#29 | POSTED BY EFFETEPOSER"

spoken like a true puppet troll. Now run along and switch ID's.

#32 | Posted by phesterOBoyle at 2020-10-14 12:16 PM | Reply

"Kill your grandparents!" - conservatism.

#33 | Posted by klifferd at 2020-10-14 12:18 PM | Reply

They would cheer when the arresting officers get fired and ruined for life.
#30 | POSTED BY PHESTEROBOYLE

Why would they get fired?

#34 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-10-14 12:23 PM | Reply

"Per the Times, the document emerged from a meeting hosted by the libertarian-leaning American Institute for Economic Research."

What a joke! Scientists my ass!

#35 | Posted by danni at 2020-10-14 12:25 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Why would they get fired?
#34 | POSTED BY SNOOFY"

For trying to apprehend a criminal. A noncompliant spreader.
Touch a mutt - lose the nut.

#36 | Posted by phesterOBoyle at 2020-10-14 12:27 PM | Reply

How drunk are you?

#37 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-10-14 12:36 PM | Reply

I haven't had a drink in years.
And don't shy from the truth and don't steal time from your employer.

#38 | Posted by phesterOBoyle at 2020-10-14 12:44 PM | Reply

@#24 ... No surprise but that group of scientists are funded by the Koch brothers. Profits over people! ...

It wouldn't surprise me if it were sponsored by the Koch Brothers, it has their fingerprints all over it. They did a similar thing with climate change because of their investment in big oil. The Republicans bought into that scam big time.

The declaration definitely has a political tone to it. It is full of "Mom and Apple Pie" statements that are quite vague (as I noted in #2) and, therefore, difficult to gainsay.


#39 | Posted by LampLighter at 2020-10-14 12:53 PM | Reply

Just doing some quick math, if herd immunity kicks in at 70%, and Dr. Frieden's estimate of 40 million infections is accurate, the Drumpf Regime is trying to kill another 1,000,000+ Americans to get to their goal. Since we don't have solid answers on why some people are getting the virus twice, and exactly how LONG the "immunity" lasts, it seems like killing off a million plus of our fellow citizens on something we still don't fully understand is monstrous, it's genocidal, and it's done simply to win re-election so Dotard can stay out of prison and out of the poor house.

#40 | Posted by _Gunslinger_ at 2020-10-14 01:04 PM | Reply

@#39

Just to be clear...

"The Republicans bought into that scam big time."

I meant that the Republicans bought into the Koch climate change scam, i.e., the Koch lies about climate change.


I could have worded that better in #39. :)

#41 | Posted by LampLighter at 2020-10-14 01:05 PM | Reply

On the plus side, this is a great way to cull the herd of the Boomer MAGAts...

Maybe even save Social Security.

#42 | Posted by SunTzuMeow at 2020-10-14 01:07 PM | Reply

We don't even have single payer healthcare, how the hell can we handle a strategy like "herd immunity"? Hospitals will be beyond capacity, more nurses and more doctors will die, this will be a disaster

#43 | Posted by hamburglar at 2020-10-14 01:15 PM | Reply

DT's new slogan: Die -------!

#44 | Posted by Jaspar at 2020-10-14 01:16 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

It's telling that a halfwit president who has admitted downplaying the risk from this virus, who has mocked people who follow the science advising them to wear masks, and who infected his own staff is now advocating the highly risky "herd immunity" approach. Or as President Halfwit calls it, because he is stupid beyond belief, "herd mentality."

#45 | Posted by cbob at 2020-10-14 01:18 PM | Reply

"We don't even have single payer healthcare, how the hell can we handle a strategy like "herd immunity"?

And so let's put a liar on the Supreme Court who we all know is planning to blow up ACA. It's sort of sad to see someone like her whose ambition is so powerful they will say or do anything to rise to a powerful position. Her claims that she hasn't discussed Roe v Wade, ACA or recusing herself in the event of a law suit regarding the election are not believable at all. She is a liar, that is a fact! After Jeff Sessions recused himself does anyone really believe Trump would have appointed someone to the court without asking them if they were going to recuse themself? If so, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale cheap!

#46 | Posted by danni at 2020-10-14 01:21 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 8

BTW, I have relatives who are Catholic cultists like her and they have told me many times that lying is fine if you are doing it for a cause they believe is right.

#47 | Posted by danni at 2020-10-14 01:22 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Nobody's morals are more situational on Earth than a Conservative so-called Christian.

#48 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-10-14 01:33 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#12 - Indeed, we should be bracing for this new wave like other nations are. MSM are complicit in keeping the masses ignorant to this upcoming deathfest.

#49 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-10-14 02:32 PM | Reply

So after EIGHT MONTHS, Trump's plan is to just give up.

"We have it totally under control."

#50 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2020-10-14 02:36 PM | Reply

So after EIGHT MONTHS, Trump's plan is to just give up.

#50 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar

His plan is to roll on his back like a dog and expose his -------- and belly to the virus.

He's an Alpha b---h.

#51 | Posted by Zed at 2020-10-14 02:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

There maybe could be an argument for herd immunity as long as there were common sense measures. Masks, crowd limits, testing and tracing where needed...

But Trump's idea of herd immunity is packing a couple of thousand people into a room and making sure he's twelve feet away.

#52 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2020-10-14 03:18 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#47 | Posted by danni

I grew up Catholic. I never heard that but I don't question the truth of that statement. Speaking bluntly - she isn't Catholic. She is a member of a cult "People of Praise" that is not recognized by the church and is in effect a cult that includes non-Catholics.

Despite what she and other cultists have said, the members answer to their betters in the organization and nobody else according to those that have got out. They don't believe in the law of men but what they view as the laws of God. Worthy of note is they also nicely stripped away all their interviews and such with her in their publications recently...

#53 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2020-10-14 03:44 PM | Reply

"Just doing some quick math, if herd immunity kicks in at 70%, and Dr. Frieden's estimate of 40 million infections is accurate, the Drumpf Regime is trying to kill another 1,000,000+ Americans to get to their goal."

To put it another way:

The Imperial College Report from back in May did the math, based on no vaccine which is the same as saying wait for herd imunity. They estimated 1.1 to 2.2 million deaths in America before the pandemic ends.

#54 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-10-14 04:02 PM | Reply

(Oops, The Imperial College Report was in March, not May.)

Happy Extinction!

#55 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-10-14 04:03 PM | Reply

An interesting views...

www.nytimes.com

...The declaration's signatories include Sunetra Gupta and Gabriela Gomes, two scientists who have proposed that societies may achieve herd immunity when 10 to 20 percent of their populations have been infected with the virus, a position most epidemiologists disagree with....

"The idea that herd immunity will happen at 10 or 20 percent is just nonsense," said Dr. Christopher J.L. Murray, director of the University of Washington's Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation, which produced the epidemic model frequently cited during White House news briefings as the epidemic hit hard in the spring....


www.forbes.com

...For example, the head of the World Health Organization said Monday that allowing the novel coronavirus to spread in an attempt to reach herd immunity was "simply unethical."

Similarly, the National Institutes of Health (NIH) director Francis Collins also denounced herd immunity as a viable plan.

"What I worry about with this is it's being presented as if it's a major alternative view that's held by large numbers of experts in the scientific community. That is not true. This is a fringe component of epidemiology. This is not mainstream science. It fits into the political views of certain parts of our confused political establishment," he said in an interview.

Not to mention studies continue to show that Sweden's attempts at herd immunity have failed and have resulted in a higher Covid-19 death toll than expected. ...


The Forbes has a lot of good citations from other experts in the field.


#56 | Posted by LampLighter at 2020-10-14 05:32 PM | Reply

Trump just entoned that Barron is doing "fine", after having been tested positive for 'rona since Donald was infected and obviously contagious. How many in their herd have passed so far? Two out of two hundred? Interesting percentages.

#57 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-10-14 05:55 PM | Reply

#39/#56 | Posted by LampLighter

The Great Barrington Declaration is 100% a Koch project - it's not a secret. Not only does the statement really say nothing but it completely avoids important facts as well as estimates on both the cost of their proposed herd immunity plan both in near term and long term dollars as well the human cost both in lives and long term health.

Throw in anyone can sign up and claim to be a "scientist" and there is zero verification on the back end...

#58 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2020-10-14 05:56 PM | Reply

Is it true that Biden was just rushed to the hospital having tested positive? Is this happening right now?!

#59 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-10-14 05:57 PM | Reply

I might have just been reading a troll.. it probably is. Sorry, folks. That would be a dire circumstance this close to encouraging public voting.

#60 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-10-14 05:59 PM | Reply

I don't see anything after a few different searches.... Probably a Russiabot

#61 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-10-14 06:02 PM | Reply

Again, herd immunity is an end, not a means.

It's akin to saying your plan to lose weight is be less fat.

#62 | Posted by Jpw at 2020-10-14 08:57 PM | Reply

They think it's like ripping the band-aid off.

Since the same number of people are going to die regardless, why not get it done in 12 months instead of 18?

The GOP is a Death Cult.

#63 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-10-14 09:56 PM | Reply

For those who don't yet know, this report is about as valid as the intelligence report that led Bush to include those Sixteen Words in his State Of The Union address.

The British press already shredded this thing a week or two ago.

But it doesn't matter, because Trumpers are so stupid, they'll believe anything Trump wants them to.

#64 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-10-14 10:09 PM | Reply

The Lancet @TheLancet

NEW Correspondence"80+ researchers warn that a so-called #herdimmunity approach to managing #COVID19 is "a dangerous fallacy unsupported by the scientific evidence"
twitter.com

Infectious Diseases Society of America: "Promoting the concept of 'herd immunity'... as an answer to the COVID-19 pandemic is inappropriate, irresponsible and ill-informed."
twitter.com

#65 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2020-10-14 11:16 PM | Reply

Herd immunity works"-if you don't care how many people die

Modeling of SARS-CoV-2 indicates that an infection rate of 65% to 70% is needed to protect the rest of our freewheeling human herd. Thus, two-thirds of the U.S. population must become resistant to the virus before our epidemic shifts from collective catastrophe to isolated incidents. But allowing infection of about 200 million Americans translates to more than 1 million deaths, a morally reprehensible toll.

fortune.com

#66 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2020-10-14 11:29 PM | Reply

Experts? Pffft! Trump knows more than all the experts, dontcha know?:

Experts Slam The White House's Herd Immunity' Plan

www.forbes.com

PS to seniors:

"But allowing infection of about 200 million Americans translates to more than 1 million deaths, a morally reprehensible toll."

So, ask yourselves, am I feeling lucky? Well, are you, Mr. and Mrs. Nobody?

#67 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2020-10-14 11:39 PM | Reply

hat is the answer? Shut it all down? Make mask wearing mandatory?
Who will enforce it and what happens to the arrestees that fight the arresters?
Anyone really think that cho bitem will make it happen?

#18 | Posted by phesterOBoyle

ANYONE will do better than trump, who is getting people killed because of his own childhood psychological damage.

Just to be clear, HERD IMMUNITY will mean 2-6 million dead americans. Even if you don't care about lives and only care about money like a conservative sociopath, do you know the economic damage of that many people suddenly dying?

#68 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2020-10-15 02:02 AM | Reply

Clip and save the comments posted in #56 from the NIH director. They should be used in political advertising. They should be printed out and posted on the door of every business, school, government building and telephone pole in America.

The herd immunity approach is being pushed because "it fits into the political views of certain parts of our confused political establishment."

In other words, you can't just believe what you choose to believe. You can't simply decide you prefer "alternative facts" because they align with your political ideology, despite what this White House tells you.

This is the biggest scandal in the history of America. The loons on the right would rather kill you than acknowledge they have no idea what they're doing.

#69 | Posted by cbob at 2020-10-15 06:08 AM | Reply

yeahhhhhhhh herd immunity works really well... just look at malaria... oh wait... bad comparison...still the number one killer of babies worldwide...
how about herpes... or measles... smallpox...? oh wait... it took vaccines for those to be brought under control...
------ you people and your illusions about herd immunity... it takes lifetimes.... centuries... if ever.

Until vaccines and antibiotics... all we had was herd immunity... and it wasn't that great. Stop deluding yourselves.

#70 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2020-10-15 11:16 AM | Reply

Herd immunity are words used to describe the affects of vaccination a high percentage of the population, it was never used to describe the affects of intentionally allowing large percentages of the population to actually contract a deadly disease. Very few, if any, die from vaccinations, completely not true when you are going to allow millions to actually contract COVID19. The concept would be laughable if our own President wasn't trying to sell it, it would be murder. Belief in herd immunity is a real sign of insanity.

#71 | Posted by danni at 2020-10-15 11:47 AM | Reply

They want people to die. It's a feature not a bug. As long as it's not them or theirs they actually want a high death toll.

Why? Good question? One thing is clear they don't give a flying ---- about people they don't know or have to do with.

Trump is a sadistic monster, McConnell too.

The money is an excuse,a way to keep score only. The real driver behind this is

THANATOS.

#72 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-10-15 12:38 PM | Reply

Many of us predicted this a month or so ago.

Or it seems like a month ago now. Don't say we didn't tell you.

You were warned. Trump is a clear and present danger.

#73 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-10-15 12:44 PM | Reply

I think Trumptydumpster doesn't realize how much killing that many people to meet his objectives will financially cost the nation.

It makes the drug companies complicit in killing their largest customer base. There is a lot of money in keeping old people and sort of sick people alive.

This is the same "right to life" party that was nutting over the death of Terri Shaivo right?

#74 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2020-10-16 08:10 AM | Reply

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