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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Wednesday, December 02, 2020

Socialism. The word sends chills down the spines of many Americans. Yet even as large swaths of the country rail against the concept, many can not define it correctly, identify Democratic Socialist countries, or realize that America is already, in many respects, a Democratic Socialist nation.

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1% own everything, perhaps it has something to do with authentically corrupt government, corporations and military?

#1 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-12-02 04:22 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

- I put this article here because more than a few have lectured me on "socialism," after which I correctly informed them that they didn't know the first thing about socialism.

That's hilarious coming from a guy who consistently conflates democratic socialism with Stalin, Lenin, and Mao... and who is also of the Tucker Carlson Hitler Was A Socialist! School of the Absurd.

Glad he is reading people like Bernstein, maybe he'll learn that list in the article that every liberal and progressive who has posted here for the last decade and a half has propagated.

#2 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-02 04:33 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

Democratic Socialism is a terrible name for Welfare State Capitalism.

or maybe not, it sounds nicer.

#3 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2020-12-02 07:34 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

USSR

learn what that's an acronym for and you learn why the very word socialist is a doomed brand.

#4 | Posted by Tor at 2020-12-02 11:51 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

80-130 million dead last century under Marxism.

Every bit of hatred towards various forms of Marxism is deserved.

#5 | Posted by drivelikejehu at 2020-12-02 11:53 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#5

This is why rational people point and laugh at looney toon rwingers.

#6 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-03 12:42 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"This is why rational people point and laugh at looney toon rwingers."

No they don't. Even progressives tend to get timid when the term comes up. And there is good reason for that. Contemporary socialist parties still make up the vast majority of socialists on this planet, and as socialists their goal is to replace capitalism with economies that are centrally planned by the government. When "welfare state capitalists" refer to themselves as socialists, they immediately run the risk of being labelled as actual socialists, which is something very different from what they actually are. You really can't blame the beholder for jumping to that conclusion, when that conclusion has been a constant for centuries.

It's really a matter of branding. I'm not sure why anyone who advocates for a capitalist systems would ever refer to themselves as a socialist.

#7 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-03 01:03 AM | Reply | Funny: 3

It's sad to read the QAnon bullshht being spewed on the DR.

#8 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-03 01:04 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

- as socialists their goal is to replace capitalism with economies that are centrally planned by the government.

You should move to one of those countries... oh, wait, your choices are so limited these days; crony capitalist Russia? Hardly. China, where the leaders of that country now have to argue that they aren't really capitalists because the Party remains in control of the "direction" of the country, if not the industry and economics themselves.

Listen, you trying to teach liberals here what is socialist and what is not is Fractured Fairy Tales funny. I'm not sure why you treat things you are just now discovering that we have known all our lives like it's new information for anyone other than yourself.

Perhaps you have just enough self-awareness to be embarrassed for the dimwitted rwingers that belong to your Party... or maybe not.

#9 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-03 01:24 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Blame the millions who checked Biden but didn't check any other Democrat.

#10 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2020-12-03 04:20 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Oiee vey....I was going to join the conversation,
then I read the top typical knee jerk Republican
responses to Socialism and thought of better uses
of my time.

If you don't know, you just don't know.

Fits for Republicans, Trumptilian Trumptards,
and the Ignorant the world over. But then again
I repeat myself.

#11 | Posted by earthmuse at 2020-12-03 06:41 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Posted by madbomber

Sad, pathetic, stupid, broken record.

keep digging, junior.

#12 | Posted by Angrydad at 2020-12-03 07:19 AM | Reply

"Every bit of hatred towards various forms of Marxism is deserved."

But we aren't discussing Marxism here stupid! We are discussing the Socialism practiced in northern European nations, Canada, the United States, and many other free nations around the world.

#13 | Posted by danni at 2020-12-03 08:16 AM | Reply

-Even progressives tend to get timid when the term comes up.

Let's be honest. That fact is why your posts on this subject generate the hostility from the same posters each time you do it.

the same posters....same hostility.

They're pissed off the term "socialist" is used to smear politicians who try to use the government for the public good.

And I agree it's wrong and it represents an obstacle to getting good things done.

Here's another reality.......This country is more comfortable voting for someone branded a "racist" than someone branded a "socialist".

#14 | Posted by eberly at 2020-12-03 09:41 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"This country is more comfortable voting for someone branded a "racist" than someone branded a "socialist"."

Probably true and it just underscores the racism still lurking beneath the surface of our politics, racists would rather give up the social safety network than see black or brown people benefit from it.

#15 | Posted by danni at 2020-12-03 09:50 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Is racism why Danni keeps supporting warmonger? Not sure it's that cut and dry.

#16 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2020-12-03 10:03 AM | Reply

"Is racism why Danni keeps supporting warmonger? Not sure it's that cut and dry."

iS LIVEORDIE just a troll? Yes.

#17 | Posted by danni at 2020-12-03 10:11 AM | Reply

Me being a troll causes one to consistently over decades vote for warmongering policies? Seems unlikely.

#18 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2020-12-03 10:34 AM | Reply

#18

Your self-awareness matches your knowledge of Ann Arbor.

#19 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-12-03 10:37 AM | Reply

"You obviously don't know what I've had to overcome to become a bleeding heart Liberal,"

It took work to decide where your political leanings rested?

#24 | Posted by eberly at 2020-12-03 11:18 AM | Reply

"It took work to decide where your political leanings rested?"

Well I grew up in a racist conservative family so I guess I was pushed to see beyond that, but it took life and knowledge to decide where my political leanings rested.

If you call them leanings, honestly I'm a giant pragmatist. I'm just not a giant self-centered pragmatist.

#25 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-12-03 11:36 AM | Reply

I'm a giant pragmatist

Said no pragmatist ever, lol

#26 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2020-12-03 11:43 AM | Reply

We had a poster back in the day with the user name Pragmatist.

Good poster.

Hope he's well.

#27 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-03 11:44 AM | Reply

"I'm a giant pragmatist"

and a bleeding heart liberal.

#28 | Posted by eberly at 2020-12-03 12:08 PM | Reply

"Listen, you trying to teach liberals here what is socialist and what is not is Fractured Fairy Tales funny."

So this is what's going on. It's can't even be argued.

1) There is a relatively modern, left-leaning movement whose members call themselves "socialists," but advocate for and end state realized through capitalism.

@) There is an older movement based on traditional socialist beliefs...they also call themselves "socialists," but the advocate for an end-state where capitalism has been eradicated, replaced instead with a government planned economy.

These are facts. It's not even up for dispute. And you can't be both.

#29 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-03 12:12 PM | Reply

#28

The bleeding heart liberal was tongue in cheek, it's a common slander as if that's a bad thing. Yes, my understanding of what people go through in life affects my judgement of right and wrong, but I'm realistic about it, most of my thoughts when implemented in public policy work well.

It's not even rocket science, but there is such a wall of misinformation and distortion trying to prevent the greater good.... you wonder why that is?

But yes, I am pragmatic in action and liberal in thought. Deal with it.

#30 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-12-03 12:18 PM | Reply

"But we aren't discussing Marxism here stupid! We are discussing the Socialism practiced in northern European nations, Canada, the United States, and many other free nations around the world."

Here's the thing Danni, for the last two centuries Marxism was socialism. It still IS socialism. It's just not the system being employed by western nations that in recent years been coined as socialism.

If you ask any real socialist, they'll tell you that what's occurring in western nations is not an example of socialism, as it relies on capitalism for it's existence.

Poke around this website a bit and tell me these socialists are supportive of capitalist society.

www.wsws.org

#31 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-03 12:19 PM | Reply

Global class struggle:

Throughout the world, workers are engaging in strikes and mass protests over austerity, unprecedented levels of social inequality and the criminal response of capitalist governments to spread of the pandemic. This page will report on the latest developments in the class struggle throughout the world and provide a voice to workers and a means of organizing their struggles. At the same time, it will help workers draw the necessary lessons from the history of the class struggle and socialist movement for their battles today.

To be effective today, even the most basic forms of working-class resistance must be coordinated on an international scale. As the global class struggle escalates, the page will assist workers in building new organizations of struggle, rank-and-file factory and workplace committees independent of the unions, to defend themselves and coordinate their struggles across national borders.

The task of the WSWS is to assist the growing mass movement by providing the Marxist theoretical guidance and political perspective required to transform the spontaneous eruptions of social opposition into a class conscious and internationally coordinated revolutionary struggle for socialism.

www.wsws.org

#32 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-03 12:20 PM | Reply

"They're pissed off the term "socialist" is used to smear politicians who try to use the government for the public good."

That's not true.

It's fair game to smear someone as a socialist when they call themselves a socialist.

#33 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-03 12:22 PM | Reply

Capitalism and inequality:

"All the fundamental problems of the 21st century"inequality, war, global warming, economic crisis, dictatorship and the return of fascism"flow from the subordination of the global economy to the private enrichment of the ruling elites.

In January 2020, the richest 2,153 people on the planet had more wealth than the bottom 4.6 billion people. The COVID-19 pandemic has accelerated trends of economic crisis, financial parasitism, inequality, and inter-imperialist rivalry that threaten humanity's future.

Captitalism has become a barrier to the further development of humanity. As Karl Marx explained 150 years ago, with the growth of poverty and inequality, so too "grows the revolt of the working class, a class always increasing in numbers, and disciplined, united, organized by the very mechanism of the process of capitalist production itself."

The WSWS seeks to unify the international working class to take power. The major international corporations and banks must be taken out of the hands of the ruling class and placed under democratic ownership to serve the interests of the broad mass of the global population."

If this represents your beliefs, you might be a socialist.

www.wsws.org

#34 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-03 12:33 PM | Reply

If you continuously tell the Big Lie that democratic socialism is the same as Marxism, you might be a Fascist.

"Socialism is a scare word they've hurled at every advance the people have made. Socialism is what they called public power, social security, deposit insurance, and independent labor organizations. Socialism is their name for anything that helps all people."

--Harry Truman, 1952

Mythbummer is no Harry Truman.

#35 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-03 12:42 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"If you continuously tell the Big Lie that democratic socialism is the same as Marxism, you might be a Fascist."

Is Democratic Socialism still socialism?

Is what you see listed below an example of Socialism?

"Welcome! The Internationalist Group, section of the League for the Fourth International, fights for international socialist revolution, the conquest of power by the working class, led by its Leninist party, championing the cause of all the oppressed. After a decade and a half in which the ruling class trumpeted the supposed "death of communism," the imperialists are bogged down in losing wars of colonial occupation in the Near East while a global economic crisis shakes the foundations of the capitalist order. With mass unemployment, poverty and hunger ravaging the planet, once again there is talk of socialism and revolution. But as in the past, the key question is that of forging a vanguard to lead the struggle of the workers and the oppressed."

www.internationalist.org

#36 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-03 12:49 PM | Reply

This country is more comfortable voting for someone branded a "racist" than someone branded a "socialist".

That's why Trump got elected President by calling Mexicans rapists and criminals and Muslims terrorists.

While Bernie gets mocked and ignored for suggesting our taxes should provide the people of this nation with national healthcare and public education beyond K-12.

#37 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-03 12:59 PM | Reply

QAnonBomber is part of the biggest socialist program in America. The military.

Have no doubts, it's completely socialist.

The military is a well funded branch of the government. Paid and maintained by our taxes. Run by the government.

#38 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-03 01:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"While Bernie gets mocked and ignored for suggesting our taxes should provide the people of this nation with national healthcare and public education beyond K-12."

Bernie got mocked because he called himself a "socialist."

Technically, socialism wouldn't require any form of taxation. The government would control the distribution of wealth, which would make taxes an unnecessary activity. Taxes are only necessary in a system where the government doesn't control the distribution of wealth.

#39 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-03 02:39 PM | Reply

"The military is a well funded branch of the government. Paid and maintained by our taxes."

Which is why, 100%, it isn't socialist.

Without capitalism, it wouldn't exist.

Something brought to you by capitalism is inherently anti-socialist.

#40 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-03 02:42 PM | Reply

Are these guys socialist?

The Socialist Equality Party (United States)

"Capitalism has failed in the United States and the entire world. The Socialist Equality Party is organizing the working class in the fight for socialism: the reorganization of all of economic life to serve social needs, not private profit.

Socialism means the abolition of all forms of inequality and exploitation. The fight for socialism is at the same time a fight against war, authoritarianism, environmental degradation and all the consequences of capitalist society.

Socialism must be fought for and won by the working class itself. It will be achieved only through a revolutionary movement that has as its aim the establishment of workers' power.

Socialism, moreover, cannot be realized in one country. All the great problems confronting mankind are global problems that require global solutions.

The fight for socialism, therefore, requires the unity and collaboration of workers in every country on the basis of a common program and perspective. The Socialist Equality Party works in political solidarity with the International Committee of the Fourth International, the World Party of Socialist Revolution founded by Leon Trotsky in 1938."

If you were an average American and you read this commentary, how do you think it would be viewed? Positively or negatively?

Anyone?

www.wsws.org

#41 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-03 02:44 PM | Reply

-Bernie got mocked because he called himself a "socialist."

Many of the folks mocking him voted for Joe Biden and would have never supported Bernie.

Those crying about that??? THEY should be mocked.

#42 | Posted by eberly at 2020-12-03 02:59 PM | Reply

"Many of the folks mocking him voted for Joe Biden and would have never supported Bernie."

That's because when politicians invoke "socialism," they're (maybe unintentionally) invoking a system that has plunged otherwise successful countries into authoritarianism and economic despair.

#43 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-03 03:15 PM | Reply

Here is what traditional "socialists" had to say about the democratic "socialists" Green New Deal:

"The Green New Deal is not a program to address the urgent social needs of working people in the US. It is a hollow slogan and grab-bag of demands meant to divert the growing struggle of the working class into the dead end of the Democratic Party. The solution to climate change, along with social inequality, poverty and the growing threat of dictatorship and war, is the revolutionary overthrow of the capitalist system, both in the US and internationally."

"www.wsws.org"

Are the authors of this article genuine "socialists," or will the democratic socialists bin them aside the National Socialists as fake socialists. I'll let them chime in.

#44 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-03 03:18 PM | Reply

"Many of the folks mocking him voted for Joe Biden and would have never supported Bernie. Those crying about that??? THEY should be mocked."

So it's not a bigger joke that some Biden voters would have preferred Trump to Sanders? Copy that.

#45 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2020-12-03 03:25 PM | Reply

Mythbummer is no Harry Truman... as he continues posting the Big Lie on these pages; that all socialism is the same.

His rwing heritage in Fascism must be really getting to him.

#46 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-03 03:28 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

34, 41, 44 "Anyone?"

No not really, while the tenets of the argument of #34 are undoubtedly true, an overwhelming majority of people who lean "socialist" just want the rich to pay their fair share, and have that money improve healthcare, education, and infrastructure.

You know.... like every other G20 nation practically.

The rest is more of that Qanon crap you sell to nobody but yourself really.

#47 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-12-03 03:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Taxes are only necessary in a system where the government doesn't control the distribution of wealth.

Which is why the military is socialist. Because the government controls the distribution of wealthy.

Also. Minimum wage laws are set by the government.

Which is why capitalism loves slave labor (aka prison labor) and undocumented immigrants.

A healthy society is a mix of capitalism and socialism.

An unhealthy society is a mix of capitalism and libertarianism.

#48 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-03 04:09 PM | Reply

Many of the folks mocking him voted for Joe Biden and would have never supported Bernie.

People are too stupid to vote for their own best interests.

I get it.

#49 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-03 04:12 PM | Reply

All the fundamental problems of the 21st century - inequality, war, global warming, economic crisis, dictatorship and the return of fascism - flow from the subordination of the global economy to the private enrichment of the ruling elites.

In January 2020, the richest 2,153 people on the planet had more wealth than the bottom 4.6 billion people. The COVID-19 pandemic has accelerated trends of economic crisis, financial parasitism, inequality, and inter-imperialist rivalry that threaten humanity's future.

This is an accurate assessment of the situation.

#50 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-03 04:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

The anti-Bernie Democrats were prepared to vote for Bloomberg, that's how stupid they were.

#51 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2020-12-03 04:58 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#7 | Posted by madbomber

I can't believe how many people like you didn't get a good civics education. All I hear right wingers doing is confusing Communism with social programs. Nobody is talking about abdicating capitalism except for a handful of true extremists (and that doesn't include the likes of AOC even). Read the article at the link and quit driving on the roads, using water and sewer systems, Police? Who needs the Police or Fire fighters for that matter... I agree do away with that huge socialist program called the military. (No I don't, I'm not an idiot but I am trying to make a point...)

For that matter - give me all the money I paid into Social Security so I can retire already. You know the program people like you call an "entitlement" - damn straight it is an entitlement as people have paid into it their whole working lives and they are entitled to collect from it. It's not a freebee and don't confuse the two terms. Also don't confuse Republican mismanagement of the program for meaning it should go away and leave everyone high and dry.

#52 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2020-12-03 05:11 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"I can't believe how many people like you didn't get a good civics education"

You can lead a horse to water...
We do it daily around here!

#53 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-12-03 05:15 PM | Reply

#51 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

Not sure I agree with that but Republicans who voted against Trump would have never voted for Bernie.

#54 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2020-12-03 05:19 PM | Reply

I would have voted for COVID 19 if it ran as a Democrat against Trump. It's ridiculous to say I wouldn't have voted for Bernie. The problem is the swing states probably would have voted for Trump because by definition, swing states are half stupid.

#55 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-12-03 05:25 PM | Reply

well. my problem is Government control, simple. not a lot different from an employer paying you a salary, provide Health Insurance, etc... the employer gets to make the rules or you get fired. THE BIG difference between an Employer and the Government is YOU CAN QUIT YOUR JOB!.........you can't quit your Government

once the Government has control it will never let go without War

#57 | Posted by Maverick at 2020-12-03 06:49 PM | Reply

(I'm gonna have to take my tongue out of my cheek, I forgot Conservative humor only hits when you belittle someone for the way they were born)

#61 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-12-03 10:52 PM | Reply

by definition, swing states are half stupid.
#55 | POSTED BY BOCAINK

That is absolutely brilliant.

#63 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-12-03 10:53 PM | Reply

Dick jokes are really the best you got?

Talk about bringing a gun to a cockfight.

#66 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-12-03 11:05 PM | Reply

Sleep it off bro

#70 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-12-03 11:38 PM | Reply

Eberly doing drive by cheerleading?

Just like the good ol' days!

Making the DR great again!

#71 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-03 11:47 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Not to mention, without coordination, -------- was the dominant topic on both of their minds... dare I say it....

like a cheerleader.

#72 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-12-04 12:29 AM | Reply

"No not really, while the tenets of the argument of #34 are undoubtedly true, an overwhelming majority of people who lean "socialist" just want the rich to pay their fair share, and have that money improve healthcare, education, and infrastructure.

You know.... like every other G20 nation practically."

Which all occurs within the construct of a market economy. Any socialist would tell you that's not socialism.

#75 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-04 12:51 AM | Reply

"Which is why capitalism loves slave labor (aka prison labor) and undocumented immigrants."

Wanna hear something interesting?

Even the actual socialist countries that previously existed operated in a capitalist economy. The Deutsche Demokratische Republik had a relatively advanced electronics sector, it's just that none of it was intended for a domestic market. They were all exports, needed to generate cash by sales to the west, which would then be used to support the socialist economy. Which itself was incapable of providing for the needs of society, much less the wants.

So technically, the west was taking advantage of what was pretty close to slave labor, provided to them by socialism.

#76 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-04 12:55 AM | Reply

"Nobody is talking about abdicating capitalism except for a handful of true extremists (and that doesn't include the likes of AOC even)."

Dude, I am in violent agreement. But here's the thing, it's AOC who is calling herself a "socialist." It's not coming from me. An 100%, socialism is a movement that seeks to replace capitalism. It's been that way for centuries.

Bernie and AOC are NOT socialists. It's strange that they keep referring to themselves as such.

#77 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-04 12:57 AM | Reply

"All I hear right wingers doing is confusing Communism with social programs."

Here have you heard communism come up once?

Here is a link to the World Socialist's Website.

www.wsws.org

Look around. You'll find no mention of communism.

Even for socialist's, that term seems to be too extreme.

#78 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-04 12:59 AM | Reply

Or you are just wrong about what people mean when they say "Democratic Socialism."

It's really simple, you live a Karl Marx delusion in a Thomas Piketty world.

#79 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-12-04 01:02 AM | Reply

it's AOC who is calling herself a "socialist."

She calls herself a Democratic socialist.

#80 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-04 01:53 AM | Reply

You'll find no mention of communism.

It doesn't exist outside of theory, mostly discussed by groups of idealistic college students and old philosophy professors.

#81 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-04 01:55 AM | Reply

Bernie and AOC are NOT socialists. It's strange that they keep referring to themselves as such.

You seem to be the only one straining to paint them as socialists.

Well you, Trump, and the rest of the fascist Republican Party.

#82 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-04 01:57 AM | Reply

The problem with arguing with an idiot is you never win.

Your general premise is asinine.

#83 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-12-04 02:01 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

So all this discussion about labels, is great. Labels and easy slogans are how America runs..........MAGA anyone??

But the bottom line is, how do you reach the American voters that are easily led and easily swayed by lies and misinformation? This country needs to remove the caps to what is taxable for social security purposes and cap the annual withdrawal amounts, and remove the caps for Medicare. When medical problems are the number one cause of bankruptcy, that is unacceptable.

#84 | Posted by ABH at 2020-12-04 06:54 AM | Reply

-This country needs to remove the caps to what is taxable for social security purposes

never going to happen.

-and cap the annual withdrawal amounts

we already do.

-and remove the caps for Medicare.

we already do

#85 | Posted by eberly at 2020-12-04 09:52 AM | Reply

When semantics is all you've got, you might be Mythbomber.

#86 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-04 11:38 AM | Reply

The anti-Bernie Democrats were prepared to vote for Bloomberg, that's how stupid they were.

#51 | POSTED BY LIVE_OR_DIE

He found out he couldn't buy those votes. But he did get a few good zingers in. And them American Samoans really like him! But not the regular Samoa's. And if his intentions were to stop Trumpy then he got his money's worth.

And Democrats don't have to speculate about who Republicans were prepare to vote for.

We can all see for our own eyes the disastrously incompetent and criminally negligent moron they were prepared for and did vote for.

#87 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-12-04 12:00 PM | Reply

"Here have you heard communism come up once?"
#78 | Posted by madbomber

It has not been said in as many words but I grew up in a time when I understood what real world communism was (and understand it even better today) and what socialism in the real world amounted to. Not the deluded BS I hear today every batty right winger I hear talking about socialism who has no clue. Venezuela is NOT Socialism. Chavez was ALWAYS a communist and so is his successor. They were communist rebels for decades who repackaged their beliefs into malarkey they sold the population on. You have a slew of posts from a FAR Left wing group (I never heard of) that defines Socialist Utopia. As an intelligent human being, I as most other Human beings understand - this is not practical nor would it work in the real world and it is absolutely not what 99% of Democrats want. Utopias are impossible dreams beyond possibly a place the size of a small city. Democrats do want things like more social equity and for corporations and the wealthy to pay their fair share.

Socialism has never been implemented period. And Communism has never been implemented as a communism is defined. That said - I don't support either policies as a whole because they don't work and I don't want to live in that kind of place. I prefer a version of restrained stakeholder capitalism and not free reign shareholder capitalism. I support social programs. I also support equality which this country has never seen regardless of if it is Race, Religion or economic. I support restrictions on capitalism - those things that get labeled "regulations". Yes they can be a pain. BUT they exist for one reason - Business ABUSING something. Environmental regulations came into being and have become stricter and stricter because businesses don't do the "right" thing - they do what they are designed to do and that is maximize profit. Same goes for any regulations like Banking. A big problem in this country is our Supreme Court said "money = speech" and that a corporation is a person - that is absurd. Companies have bought politicians on all sides because of it - note you also need to understand Unions and non-profits are also COMPANIES. I look at Europe where time and again they make laws and decisions based on what is best for the people of the country vs the companies. It is the one reason I support someone like Bernie. Trump on the other hand is 100% in it for Trump and if the decision doesn't benefit him it benefits someone he idolizes or owes something to = capitalism at its worst.

I have said it several times now - socialism as applied in Europe is a much better system than what we have. They are still VERY capitalist countries but have carried the description of "socialist" for decades. They are by no means perfect but they are far more equal than the US is. Your idea that once a government has power over something it will take a war to get it back is downright idiotic. Just look at all what I see as damage that was done under Trump. And what didn't happen isn't because Trump didn't want it to happen it is because the money behind the elections and owners of actual vast wealth on the right in this country didn't want it changed. The old money. Not the new money who actually made their own money but the old blue bloods - Mercers, Kochs, etc.

You need to understand that the US of A has MANY socialist policies already in place as I already outlined a few you don't think about. Lets add a few more - don't you dare go to a public park, beach or museum. Forget about going to any sporting events as well.

#88 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2020-12-04 12:11 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#87 - Bloomberg failed miserably and he also got a bunch of down ballot Dems to lose. Of course, to you, that's the picture of success because reasons.

#89 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2020-12-04 01:09 PM | Reply

Socialism without capitalism is communism and capitalism without socialism is fascism.

#91 | Posted by tknees at 2020-12-04 02:32 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

America's problem with socialism is that 99.9% of people in America cannot even agree what socialism is. Or is not.

#92 | Posted by moder8 at 2020-12-04 02:44 PM | Reply

#91

Not sure I agree with that 100 percent, but it makes a lot more sense than what is being posted by you know who.

The truth is that every country from Somalia to Denmark is some form of public-private partnership.

It is a matter of to what degree.

Madbum is talking out his you know what again.

The weird thing is I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of your views on policy and partisanship, but you are bass ackwards when it comes to economics. You almost literally couldn't be more wrong.

Yet it seems to be the topic you want to discuss the most, which baffles me.

I'm a broken record when it comes to economics, it bores me to death but it's what I know most about.

#93 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-12-04 03:21 PM | Reply

"She calls herself a Democratic socialist."

So...like a National Socialist, she's not a real "socialist?"

#94 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-04 03:31 PM | Reply

"It's really simple, you live a Karl Marx delusion in a Thomas Piketty world."

What does that mean exactly?

Are you saying I live in a world where socialism is now capitalist?

Piketty's theories are of a different stripe than Marx's. Marxian economic theory is easily disregarded because it's failures were apparent. Piketty presents alternatives that in many ways mirror that of contemporary socialists, but don't pull the thread on the actual cost of what those alternatives would be. My belief is that the end result would be much like socialism, with everyone getting poorer, but the rich getting poorer at a much higher marginal rate.

#95 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-04 03:38 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"You seem to be the only one straining to paint them as socialists."

I don't need to paint them as socialists.

They do that for themselves.

#96 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-04 03:39 PM | Reply

When semantics is all you've got, you might be Mythbomber.

#97 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-04 03:41 PM | Reply

"America's problem with socialism is that 99.9% of people in America cannot even agree what socialism is. Or is not."

Not really.

The definitions have been around for centuries.

The problem is that non-socialists, for some reason, are intent on referring to themselves as socialists, and then get butthurt when people call them out for aligning with the socioeconomic version of the black plague.

If Bernie and AOC were to announce that they were supporters of capitalism, much of the vitriol directed against them would evaporate immediately. Especially with those groups (Cubans, Venezuelans) who actually saw their families killed or persecuted by socialist regimes.

#98 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-04 03:47 PM | Reply

"When semantics is all you've got, you might be Mythbomber."

When words have meaning, semantics matter.

#99 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-04 03:47 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I have said it several times now - socialism as applied in Europe is a much better system than what we have."

Like Belarus?

#100 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-04 03:48 PM | Reply

Bloomberg failed miserably and he also got a bunch of down ballot Dems to lose. Of course, to you, that's the picture of success because reasons.

#89 | POSTED BY LIVE_OR_DIE

Bloomberg was successful in helping unseat Trumpy. Yes. We could have done better with the down ballots. Thanks for rubbing that in. But the fact that Trumpy was defeated is a victory for all Americans. Including Bloomberg. Whether you believe it or not. So yes. I considered that a success. Combined with some bad news too. But it ain't over till it's over. Glad you got that all figured out. But did you hear the news! We made America

You know who failed miserably? Donald J Trump and the supporters of Donald J Trump. And I hope it hurts.

Care to try and guess who's fault that was?

#101 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-12-04 03:49 PM | Reply

Re 101.

And did you hear the news?

We made America great again!

#102 | Posted by donnerboy at 2020-12-04 03:50 PM | Reply

"The weird thing is I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of your views on policy and partisanship, but you are bass ackwards when it comes to economics."

Dude, I'm kind of an econ geek.

We can turn this into a discussion on economics if you want to...in fact I would love it.

Like I said, Piketty can produce a problem statement, he can propose action aligned against that problem statement, but few if any on the left ever wargame the possible outcomes of those actions.

As an example, in 2016 Bernie's tax plan assumed that income earners would not alter their behavior in response to increased tax rates. That's really the equivalent of saying that workers wouldn't alter their behavior as a result of cuts in pay.

Maybe, but if you were an employer and planned on cutting your employees income, you may want to consider if they would continue to work for you, or utilize their labor in some way that was more beneficial to them.

Bottom line, if you think I'm ass backwards when it comes to economics, odds are you don't know much about economics.

#103 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-04 03:55 PM | Reply

#102

It would be kind of funny if Biden's camp produced a bunch of blue "Make America Great Again" hats.

I think it would be, anyway.

#104 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-04 03:57 PM | Reply

Re: #99

"semantics matter"

Agreed. I think the worry that especially Cold-War-era citizens have is that the adoption of term "Socialism" for what are actually just left-wing policies, will allow actual radical socialists and tankies to hide within the ranks. I followed those radical people on twitter out of curiosity, and they say some nutball things, and they actually say they want to seize all means of production.

Sure, language is not static, but we need to have some semblance of control. Otherwise, we end up having to accept "irregardless" as a word, and the use of the word "literally" becomes synonymous with "figuratively" in addition to being its antonym.

#105 | Posted by hamburglar at 2020-12-04 04:08 PM | Reply

The problem with the word "Socialism" is people like QAnonBomber use it to describe anyone left of Hitler, including Hitler.

Then they can't understand why no one takes them seriously and mocks them.

Good job QAnon dummy.

With each post you manage to skeet more shht onto your pig face.

#106 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-04 04:13 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

- When words have meaning

Words and phrases like social democratic and democratic socialism have not only their own specific meanings, but also have different meanings than words like socialism.

Your Trumpian effort to make all words or phrases that include some variation of the word socialism mean the same is laughable, and has been for some time now.

#107 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-04 04:21 PM | Reply

Re: #106

Maybe MB used to describe anything left-wing as "sOCiALiSt", but as far as I can see he doesn't do that so much anymore, he just likes to question the embrace of the word by the young ones on the left.

I don't agree that Hitler was a real left-winger, but we need to be wary of wannabe authoritarians on the left as well as on the right. They will seize on whatever is popular and try to ride the wave to the top.

#108 | Posted by hamburglar at 2020-12-04 04:27 PM | Reply

#108

You must have missed the recent thread with that idiot swearing Hitler and the Nazis were a bunch of socialists.

#109 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-04 04:35 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

While I don't really have a firm stance on what socialism is or what political ideology notorious historical figures subscribed to.....I still enjoy witnessing the debate.

Reminds me of the Zed vs Nulli on drug use exchanges...those were awesome.

both sides make great arguments, IMO.

There is some anklebiting from the usual types but it's not prevented a good exchange.

#110 | Posted by eberly at 2020-12-04 05:06 PM | Reply

both sides make great arguments, IMO.
#110 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Both sides Eberly thinks both sides are great!

"There are very fine people, on both sides."
-Eberly Trump.

#111 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-04 05:13 PM | Reply

" Your Trumpian effort to make all words or phrases that include some variation of the word socialism mean the same is laughable, and has been for some time now."

It's stopped being laughable and become tediously tiresome for a long time now.

#112 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2020-12-04 05:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Here's a slightly different take on why American's struggle with the term socialism.

theconversation.com

Extracts:

"At the end of World War II, the government worried about the spread of communism at home. Business interests worried about government regulations and about the rising popularity of unions. The Cold War provided both parties with a shared enemy."

"One of their goals: promoting the virtues of capitalism and free enterprise in America while simultaneously demonizing the alternative " socialism " which was often conflated with communism."

#113 | Posted by Foreigner at 2020-12-04 05:33 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#113

While that's probably true. (And I admit I'm only responding to the text you provided.)

FDR was slammed as a socialist and the New Deal was attacked as socialism. This was before WW2 ended.

#114 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-04 07:56 PM | Reply

"Agreed. I think the worry that especially Cold-War-era citizens have is that the adoption of term "Socialism" for what are actually just left-wing policies, will allow actual radical socialists and tankies to hide within the ranks. I followed those radical people on twitter out of curiosity, and they say some nutball things, and they actually say they want to seize all means of production."

Those people you were following-those were actual "socialists." And seizing the means of production has always been a key component of socialism.

That's why it's strange to me that anyone who supported capitalism would align themselves, even semantically, with socialism.

#115 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-05 01:23 AM | Reply

"Maybe MB used to describe anything left-wing as "sOCiALiSt"

I absolutely do not do that. Obama wasn't a socialist. Hillary wasn't a socialist. AOC is not a socialist. Bernie may be a socialist...in the past he has shown his support for socialist regimes, including the Soviet Union...but that's it.

"Socialist" is a term that the left throws around to smear adversaries in the same way that the left throws around the term "racist" or "fascist." Which itself is very reminiscent of the days when all adversaries of the COMINTERN were labelled as fascists, even when they were devout socialists. Leon Trotsky was killed by Stalin because he was a "fascist."

#116 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-05 01:27 AM | Reply

"You must have missed the recent thread with that idiot swearing Hitler and the Nazis were a bunch of socialists."

No, I was saying Hitler was a socialist.

Actually, it wasn't me saying it. It was historian Thomas Weber, whose research showed that Hitler served as an officer in the Bavarian Soviet Republic. And you don't get much more socialist than a Soviet.

#117 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-05 01:32 AM | Reply

I was saying Hitler was a socialist.

*Yawn*

#118 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-05 01:39 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"One of their goals: promoting the virtues of capitalism and free enterprise in America while simultaneously demonizing the alternative " socialism " which was often conflated with communism."

That's a bit simplistic. The Soviets viewed socialism as a post-capitalist stage in the evolution of a communist state. In Marxian theory, the difference between socialism and communism is the existence of the state. Marx believed that under communism, the state would not be needed and wither away, as happy workers would willing provide according to their abilities, and consume according to their need.

In the end, most western support for socialism disappeared simply due to the vast difference in standard of living between those living in communist countries and those living in countries with market economies.

#119 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-05 01:43 AM | Reply

*Yawn*

So...I suppose it's possible he wasn't a socialist.

It's possible that no Soviets were socialists.

It's possible that there has never been a socialist.

But in general, I think it's safe to assume that members of a socialist organization shared that organization's beliefs.

#120 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-05 01:44 AM | Reply

" Your Trumpian effort to make all words or phrases that include some variation of the word socialism mean the same is laughable, and has been for some time now."

It's stopped being laughable and become tediously tiresome for a long time now.

#112 | POSTED BY HAGBARD_CELINE AT 2020-12-04 05:27 PM | FLAG:
(CHOOSE)
| NEWSWORTHY 1

Tedious, tiresome... idiotic, naive, boring... boring may be the worst.

#121 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-05 02:11 AM | Reply

" I was saying Hitler was a socialist."

That would certainly be news to the socialists Hitler had either jailed or executed.

He might've been part of a group which claimed to be socialist early on, but once in power Hitler never governed as a socialist for a Berlin Minute.

#122 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-12-05 07:03 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

"This was before WW2 ended.

#114 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2020-12-04 07:56 PM | REPLY | FLAG"

This timing wouldn't surprise me. The anti-socialist/communist/organised labour agenda would have existed before it became "official" through the concerted efforts described in the article I linked.

"That's a bit simplistic.

#119 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER AT 2020-12-05 01:43 AM | REPLY | FLAG"

Not sure your comment is appropriate.

My quote refers to an objective of the US Ad Council, to deliberately conflate socialism with communism and therefore play on cold war tensions, as part of a policy to weaken support for unions and social welfare programs in the US.

Your comment sets out the Soviet view of socialism and the Marxist distinction between socialism and communism. All well and good but nothing really to do with the objective of the Ad Council.

#123 | Posted by Foreigner at 2020-12-05 09:15 AM | Reply

#105 | Posted by hamburglar

Language changes over time and by region (think of places like Boston, Alabama, the Bayous of Louisiana or some of the regions in the UK...) Not to mention words come and go. Irregardles is now considered a word just as "twerking" is. Thought you might see some humor in that...

#124 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2020-12-05 12:08 PM | Reply

"That would certainly be news to the socialists Hitler had either jailed or executed."

That was true...after he joined the National Socialist Party. Before that, he was a member of the Bavarian Soviet Republic.

"He might've been part of a group which claimed to be socialist early on, but once in power Hitler never governed as a socialist for a Berlin Minute."

Yup.

No different than Mussolini, who was a prominent member of the Italian Socialist party for decades, before he split off and created his fascist party.

#125 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-05 01:36 PM | Reply

Language changes over time and by region (think of places like Boston, Alabama, the Bayous of Louisiana or some of the regions in the UK...) Not to mention words come and go. Irregardles is now considered a word just as "twerking" is. Thought you might see some humor in that...

But when it comes to "Socialism," it hasn't changed. Socialists still advocate for eliminating the capitalist economy.

So what the left is stuck with is two conflicting ideologies, both who want to label themselves as "socialist," but have very different proscribed methods of achieving their goals.

#126 | Posted by madbomber at 2020-12-05 01:39 PM | Reply

Social democracies are not old fashioned socialism, no matter how often you proffer that myth.

Perhaps you are thinking about your own rwing politics and how closely current Trumpublicism with it's white supremicists, athoritarian nationalists, immigrant bashers, and apperrent belief that the wealthy elite are genitically superior... reflects Hitler, Nazis, and Fascism in general.

#127 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-05 10:00 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Basically every response to this thread from now on should be the same:

"No Madbum, you are 100 percent wrong on your basic understanding of terms"

#128 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-12-05 10:14 PM | Reply

"Socialists still advocate for eliminating the capitalist economy."

Nonsense. There's not a single self-proclaimed "socialist" who believes their country shouldn't, say, sell a barrel of oil if they have it.

"Madbum, you are 100 percent wrong on your basic understanding of terms"

He's Humpty Dumpty from Alice in Wonderland.

#129 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-12-05 11:21 PM | Reply

"That was true...after he joined the National Socialist Party. "

Using that logic, The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is Democratic, and Saddam's Republican Guard was staffed exclusively by Republicans.

Pro Tip: Spanish Moss isn't Spanish, and it isn't moss. Sweetbreads aren't sweet, and they aren't breads. And Hitler's Socialist Party wasn't Socialist at all: in fact Hitler jailed and executed Socialists, and NEVER governed as a Socialist. Never.

It doesn't matter what's in the name; it matters what's contained in the actions. For further reference, see so-called "Christians" who never follow the teachings of Christ.

#130 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-12-05 11:31 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

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