"This is why rational people point and laugh at looney toon rwingers."

No they don't. Even progressives tend to get timid when the term comes up. And there is good reason for that. Contemporary socialist parties still make up the vast majority of socialists on this planet, and as socialists their goal is to replace capitalism with economies that are centrally planned by the government. When "welfare state capitalists" refer to themselves as socialists, they immediately run the risk of being labelled as actual socialists, which is something very different from what they actually are. You really can't blame the beholder for jumping to that conclusion, when that conclusion has been a constant for centuries.

It's really a matter of branding. I'm not sure why anyone who advocates for a capitalist systems would ever refer to themselves as a socialist.

"Listen, you trying to teach liberals here what is socialist and what is not is Fractured Fairy Tales funny."

So this is what's going on. It's can't even be argued.

1) There is a relatively modern, left-leaning movement whose members call themselves "socialists," but advocate for and end state realized through capitalism.

@) There is an older movement based on traditional socialist beliefs...they also call themselves "socialists," but the advocate for an end-state where capitalism has been eradicated, replaced instead with a government planned economy.

These are facts. It's not even up for dispute. And you can't be both.

"But we aren't discussing Marxism here stupid! We are discussing the Socialism practiced in northern European nations, Canada, the United States, and many other free nations around the world."

Here's the thing Danni, for the last two centuries Marxism was socialism. It still IS socialism. It's just not the system being employed by western nations that in recent years been coined as socialism.

If you ask any real socialist, they'll tell you that what's occurring in western nations is not an example of socialism, as it relies on capitalism for it's existence.

Poke around this website a bit and tell me these socialists are supportive of capitalist society.

Global class struggle:

Throughout the world, workers are engaging in strikes and mass protests over austerity, unprecedented levels of social inequality and the criminal response of capitalist governments to spread of the pandemic. This page will report on the latest developments in the class struggle throughout the world and provide a voice to workers and a means of organizing their struggles. At the same time, it will help workers draw the necessary lessons from the history of the class struggle and socialist movement for their battles today.

To be effective today, even the most basic forms of working-class resistance must be coordinated on an international scale. As the global class struggle escalates, the page will assist workers in building new organizations of struggle, rank-and-file factory and workplace committees independent of the unions, to defend themselves and coordinate their struggles across national borders.

The task of the WSWS is to assist the growing mass movement by providing the Marxist theoretical guidance and political perspective required to transform the spontaneous eruptions of social opposition into a class conscious and internationally coordinated revolutionary struggle for socialism.

"They're pissed off the term "socialist" is used to smear politicians who try to use the government for the public good."

That's not true.

It's fair game to smear someone as a socialist when they call themselves a socialist.

Capitalism and inequality:

"All the fundamental problems of the 21st century"inequality, war, global warming, economic crisis, dictatorship and the return of fascism"flow from the subordination of the global economy to the private enrichment of the ruling elites.

In January 2020, the richest 2,153 people on the planet had more wealth than the bottom 4.6 billion people. The COVID-19 pandemic has accelerated trends of economic crisis, financial parasitism, inequality, and inter-imperialist rivalry that threaten humanity's future.

Captitalism has become a barrier to the further development of humanity. As Karl Marx explained 150 years ago, with the growth of poverty and inequality, so too "grows the revolt of the working class, a class always increasing in numbers, and disciplined, united, organized by the very mechanism of the process of capitalist production itself."

The WSWS seeks to unify the international working class to take power. The major international corporations and banks must be taken out of the hands of the ruling class and placed under democratic ownership to serve the interests of the broad mass of the global population."

If this represents your beliefs, you might be a socialist.

"If you continuously tell the Big Lie that democratic socialism is the same as Marxism, you might be a Fascist."

Is Democratic Socialism still socialism?

Is what you see listed below an example of Socialism?

"Welcome! The Internationalist Group, section of the League for the Fourth International, fights for international socialist revolution, the conquest of power by the working class, led by its Leninist party, championing the cause of all the oppressed. After a decade and a half in which the ruling class trumpeted the supposed "death of communism," the imperialists are bogged down in losing wars of colonial occupation in the Near East while a global economic crisis shakes the foundations of the capitalist order. With mass unemployment, poverty and hunger ravaging the planet, once again there is talk of socialism and revolution. But as in the past, the key question is that of forging a vanguard to lead the struggle of the workers and the oppressed."

"While Bernie gets mocked and ignored for suggesting our taxes should provide the people of this nation with national healthcare and public education beyond K-12."

Bernie got mocked because he called himself a "socialist."

Technically, socialism wouldn't require any form of taxation. The government would control the distribution of wealth, which would make taxes an unnecessary activity. Taxes are only necessary in a system where the government doesn't control the distribution of wealth.

"The military is a well funded branch of the government. Paid and maintained by our taxes."

Which is why, 100%, it isn't socialist.

Without capitalism, it wouldn't exist.

Something brought to you by capitalism is inherently anti-socialist.

Are these guys socialist?

The Socialist Equality Party (United States)

"Capitalism has failed in the United States and the entire world. The Socialist Equality Party is organizing the working class in the fight for socialism: the reorganization of all of economic life to serve social needs, not private profit.

Socialism means the abolition of all forms of inequality and exploitation. The fight for socialism is at the same time a fight against war, authoritarianism, environmental degradation and all the consequences of capitalist society.

Socialism must be fought for and won by the working class itself. It will be achieved only through a revolutionary movement that has as its aim the establishment of workers' power.

Socialism, moreover, cannot be realized in one country. All the great problems confronting mankind are global problems that require global solutions.

The fight for socialism, therefore, requires the unity and collaboration of workers in every country on the basis of a common program and perspective. The Socialist Equality Party works in political solidarity with the International Committee of the Fourth International, the World Party of Socialist Revolution founded by Leon Trotsky in 1938."

If you were an average American and you read this commentary, how do you think it would be viewed? Positively or negatively?

Anyone?

"Many of the folks mocking him voted for Joe Biden and would have never supported Bernie."

That's because when politicians invoke "socialism," they're (maybe unintentionally) invoking a system that has plunged otherwise successful countries into authoritarianism and economic despair.

Here is what traditional "socialists" had to say about the democratic "socialists" Green New Deal:

"The Green New Deal is not a program to address the urgent social needs of working people in the US. It is a hollow slogan and grab-bag of demands meant to divert the growing struggle of the working class into the dead end of the Democratic Party. The solution to climate change, along with social inequality, poverty and the growing threat of dictatorship and war, is the revolutionary overthrow of the capitalist system, both in the US and internationally."

"No not really, while the tenets of the argument of #34 are undoubtedly true, an overwhelming majority of people who lean "socialist" just want the rich to pay their fair share, and have that money improve healthcare, education, and infrastructure.

You know.... like every other G20 nation practically."

Which all occurs within the construct of a market economy. Any socialist would tell you that's not socialism.

"Which is why capitalism loves slave labor (aka prison labor) and undocumented immigrants."

Wanna hear something interesting?

Even the actual socialist countries that previously existed operated in a capitalist economy. The Deutsche Demokratische Republik had a relatively advanced electronics sector, it's just that none of it was intended for a domestic market. They were all exports, needed to generate cash by sales to the west, which would then be used to support the socialist economy. Which itself was incapable of providing for the needs of society, much less the wants.

So technically, the west was taking advantage of what was pretty close to slave labor, provided to them by socialism.

"Nobody is talking about abdicating capitalism except for a handful of true extremists (and that doesn't include the likes of AOC even)."

Dude, I am in violent agreement. But here's the thing, it's AOC who is calling herself a "socialist." It's not coming from me. An 100%, socialism is a movement that seeks to replace capitalism. It's been that way for centuries.

Bernie and AOC are NOT socialists. It's strange that they keep referring to themselves as such.

"All I hear right wingers doing is confusing Communism with social programs."

Here have you heard communism come up once?

Here is a link to the World Socialist's Website.

"She calls herself a Democratic socialist."

So...like a National Socialist, she's not a real "socialist?"

"It's really simple, you live a Karl Marx delusion in a Thomas Piketty world."

What does that mean exactly?

Are you saying I live in a world where socialism is now capitalist?

Piketty's theories are of a different stripe than Marx's. Marxian economic theory is easily disregarded because it's failures were apparent. Piketty presents alternatives that in many ways mirror that of contemporary socialists, but don't pull the thread on the actual cost of what those alternatives would be. My belief is that the end result would be much like socialism, with everyone getting poorer, but the rich getting poorer at a much higher marginal rate.

"You seem to be the only one straining to paint them as socialists."

I don't need to paint them as socialists.

They do that for themselves.

"America's problem with socialism is that 99.9% of people in America cannot even agree what socialism is. Or is not."

Not really.

The definitions have been around for centuries.

The problem is that non-socialists, for some reason, are intent on referring to themselves as socialists, and then get butthurt when people call them out for aligning with the socioeconomic version of the black plague.

If Bernie and AOC were to announce that they were supporters of capitalism, much of the vitriol directed against them would evaporate immediately. Especially with those groups (Cubans, Venezuelans) who actually saw their families killed or persecuted by socialist regimes.

"When semantics is all you've got, you might be Mythbomber."

When words have meaning, semantics matter.

"I have said it several times now - socialism as applied in Europe is a much better system than what we have."

Like Belarus?

"The weird thing is I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of your views on policy and partisanship, but you are bass ackwards when it comes to economics."

Dude, I'm kind of an econ geek.

We can turn this into a discussion on economics if you want to...in fact I would love it.

Like I said, Piketty can produce a problem statement, he can propose action aligned against that problem statement, but few if any on the left ever wargame the possible outcomes of those actions.

As an example, in 2016 Bernie's tax plan assumed that income earners would not alter their behavior in response to increased tax rates. That's really the equivalent of saying that workers wouldn't alter their behavior as a result of cuts in pay.

Maybe, but if you were an employer and planned on cutting your employees income, you may want to consider if they would continue to work for you, or utilize their labor in some way that was more beneficial to them.

Bottom line, if you think I'm ass backwards when it comes to economics, odds are you don't know much about economics.

#102

It would be kind of funny if Biden's camp produced a bunch of blue "Make America Great Again" hats.

I think it would be, anyway.

"Agreed. I think the worry that especially Cold-War-era citizens have is that the adoption of term "Socialism" for what are actually just left-wing policies, will allow actual radical socialists and tankies to hide within the ranks. I followed those radical people on twitter out of curiosity, and they say some nutball things, and they actually say they want to seize all means of production."

Those people you were following-those were actual "socialists." And seizing the means of production has always been a key component of socialism.

That's why it's strange to me that anyone who supported capitalism would align themselves, even semantically, with socialism.

"Maybe MB used to describe anything left-wing as "sOCiALiSt"

I absolutely do not do that. Obama wasn't a socialist. Hillary wasn't a socialist. AOC is not a socialist. Bernie may be a socialist...in the past he has shown his support for socialist regimes, including the Soviet Union...but that's it.

"Socialist" is a term that the left throws around to smear adversaries in the same way that the left throws around the term "racist" or "fascist." Which itself is very reminiscent of the days when all adversaries of the COMINTERN were labelled as fascists, even when they were devout socialists. Leon Trotsky was killed by Stalin because he was a "fascist."

"You must have missed the recent thread with that idiot swearing Hitler and the Nazis were a bunch of socialists."

No, I was saying Hitler was a socialist.

Actually, it wasn't me saying it. It was historian Thomas Weber, whose research showed that Hitler served as an officer in the Bavarian Soviet Republic. And you don't get much more socialist than a Soviet.

"One of their goals: promoting the virtues of capitalism and free enterprise in America while simultaneously demonizing the alternative " socialism " which was often conflated with communism."

That's a bit simplistic. The Soviets viewed socialism as a post-capitalist stage in the evolution of a communist state. In Marxian theory, the difference between socialism and communism is the existence of the state. Marx believed that under communism, the state would not be needed and wither away, as happy workers would willing provide according to their abilities, and consume according to their need.

In the end, most western support for socialism disappeared simply due to the vast difference in standard of living between those living in communist countries and those living in countries with market economies.

*Yawn*

So...I suppose it's possible he wasn't a socialist.

It's possible that no Soviets were socialists.

It's possible that there has never been a socialist.

But in general, I think it's safe to assume that members of a socialist organization shared that organization's beliefs.

"That would certainly be news to the socialists Hitler had either jailed or executed."

That was true...after he joined the National Socialist Party. Before that, he was a member of the Bavarian Soviet Republic.

"He might've been part of a group which claimed to be socialist early on, but once in power Hitler never governed as a socialist for a Berlin Minute."

Yup.

No different than Mussolini, who was a prominent member of the Italian Socialist party for decades, before he split off and created his fascist party.

Language changes over time and by region (think of places like Boston, Alabama, the Bayous of Louisiana or some of the regions in the UK...) Not to mention words come and go. Irregardles is now considered a word just as "twerking" is. Thought you might see some humor in that...

But when it comes to "Socialism," it hasn't changed. Socialists still advocate for eliminating the capitalist economy.

So what the left is stuck with is two conflicting ideologies, both who want to label themselves as "socialist," but have very different proscribed methods of achieving their goals.