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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Thursday, December 24, 2020

The pastor of 2nd Mile Church in north Fort Worth, where his parents were members, said he was surprised by the sudden surge in COVID cases in recent weeks in Tarrant County.

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Matthew 4

The devil said to Jesus, "If you are the Son of God, jump off for the scriptures say, 'He will order his angels to protect you"
Jesus responded, "The scriptures also say, 'You must not test the Lord your God'

#1 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-24 07:46 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 2

My observations about being a Christian and talking to other Christians is that it's not very difficult to pluck verses out of context to achieve a particular message. There's hundreds of books written to do just that.

The Old and New Testaments have different perspectives and it is important to know where verses come from to see how they apply.

My previous post is from the New Testament and a red letter quote of Jesus.

Over the centuries many Christians have viewed God as cruel and issuing punishment for your wrongdoings.

I don't really think punishment is always what might be occurring when bad things happen so much as perhaps God just allows the natural consequences of our actions to play out. This story about the Pastor and his parents dying. No...God didn't punish the Pastor by killing his parents. His parents died due to be exposed to the virus. It was their own choices.

I believe God is gracious and forgiving and that He desires our happiness and to enjoy life and be free.

However, there is one caveat.

We must ask for His grace and forgiveness in the name of Jesus Christ and humbly stand before God (or in your living room with a contrite heart) admitting you are a sinner and believe what is taught that no one can stand before God without Jesus and that with Jesus, your soul will be clean as snow on judgment day.

Or something like that...that's how I see it.

#2 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-24 08:08 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Just before Thanksgiving, he posted a message on Facebook dismissing precautionary measures advised by the [CDC] [...] A few weeks later, both of Dunn's parents were dead after entering the hospital with COVID-19 symptoms.

God works in mysterious ways. The fine pastor should probably go lick the floors of public restrooms while he ponders the theological meaning of these deaths.

#3 | Posted by censored at 2020-12-24 09:24 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Pastor Dunn believed in magic, not God or Christ.

#4 | Posted by Zed at 2020-12-24 10:29 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 6

Pastor Dunn believed in magic, not God or Christ.
#4 | POSTED BY ZED

Yeah. Whenever I read one of these stories I can't help but think of the joke about the guy in the flood waiting for God to save him.

#5 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-24 10:33 AM | Reply

Zed,

"Pastor Dunn believed in magic, not God or Christ."

oh...I hate to say it but I suspect what Pastor Dunn believed was the collection went down when people weren't there.

#6 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-24 10:48 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

That being said...I do strongly believe in the power of prayer and I know there are miracles.

I've seen them in my life but oddly they occur and oftentimes I don't notice them until long after.

Covid...?

I mean...Daniel walked around in a fire and wasn't consumed.

But I'm not about to jump into any furnaces myself.

I am careful what sort of risks I take.

#7 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-24 10:54 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"That being said...I do strongly believe in the power of prayer and I know there are miracles."

I wonder if what you call the power of prayer is the same thing that academics call the placebo effect.

#8 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-12-24 10:58 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

I mean...Daniel walked around in a fire and wasn't consumed.

No, he didn't.

And prayer doesn't work.

It's all a "master plan," remember?

#9 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-24 11:18 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The Westboro Baptist chuds need to start showing up at these funerals carrying 'God Hates Morons' signs.

#10 | Posted by reinheitsgebot at 2020-12-24 12:03 PM | Reply

Jpw,

"No, he didn't."

You don't know...how can you?

You are a miniscule speck on the parchment of time.

An atom...or not even that.

And you think yourself able to speak with authority what unseen things exist in time and space?

Big world...big universe...here long before me....will continue long after I'm gone.

As time as advanced...we learn more about "reality".

Things we take as common knowledge today would be unbelievable centuries ago.

God?...why not?

We've yet to even imagine what is to come or what certainties are not so certain.

#11 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-24 12:03 PM | Reply

LOL like a child who thinks the magician actually has his nose.

You don't have to know everything to know a bunch of bronze age goat herder myths are just that-bronze age goat herder myths.

#12 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-24 12:09 PM | Reply

"Things we take as common knowledge today would be unbelievable centuries ago.

God?...why not?"

Mostly because you've removed faith from the equation.

But also because you are making a "G-d of the gaps" argument.

As well as some kind of ad populem appeal with that "common knowledge" part.

#13 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-12-24 12:13 PM | Reply

Ugh! I want to enjoy this thread but I can't because Bill is shtting on it.

Dude, seriously go away. You are the worst Luddite in the history of blogging.

You have no credibility about anything on this planet.

Thanks for ruining this experience for everyone.

#14 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-12-24 12:17 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 3

Snoofy,

I'm not sure how faith plays into this.

Does faith alter reality?

Does my faith alter my reality?

One of my observations about prayer is that praying for others seems to be more effective than praying for yourself.

Jesus said to pray for your enemies.

That's a tough one...isn't it?

#15 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-24 12:25 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Boc,

What about a Pastor losing his parents would you prefer to talk about?

#16 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-24 12:30 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Does my faith alter my reality?"

If it doesn't... then what does it do?

#17 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-12-24 12:34 PM | Reply

I tried a YouTube search for "pastor todd dunn covid" and couldn't find him anyplace. However, there are a LOT of pastors being hospitalized who apparently didn't observe PPE guidelines..

Keep going 'rona - only a few billion more to go.

#18 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-12-24 12:34 PM | Reply

Snoofy,

"If it doesn't... then what does it do?"

You're asking me?

Like I know?

I ask questions...I don't have answers.

#19 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-24 12:42 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Faith over fear is a good general attitude.

Faith over foolishness is more apropos to playing in traffic, jumping offa cliffs, or sneering at a pandemic.

#20 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-24 12:59 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Pastor Dunn believed in magic, not God or Christ"

They are the same thing? At least as far as I can tell.

#21 | Posted by dibblda at 2020-12-24 02:08 PM | Reply

I dunno. When I see a magic trick, I know I'm getting fooled.

That's what makes it entertaining!

#22 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-12-24 02:27 PM | Reply

One of my observations about prayer is that praying for others seems to be more effective than praying for yourself.

That's called an anecdote and is meaningless.

Also, you have zero ability to say the outcome would have been different without prayer.

#23 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-24 02:35 PM | Reply

This poor unchristian simpleton is going to have to live with the shame of having killed his parents for the rest of his life.

If he didn't do it directly his words did it.

#24 | Posted by Tor at 2020-12-24 02:48 PM | Reply

He killed his parents.

They were stupid enough to not take simple measures to prevent catching COVID, so it's on them too.

"I'm not wearing a mask when around my family like the CDC requests and we are traveling so we'll take our chances," Dunn's Facebook post read. "And to top it off we are huggers so there you go! There will be no social distancing CDC. Faith over fear!!"

#25 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2020-12-24 03:27 PM | Reply

My observations about being a Christian and talking to other Christians is that it's not very difficult to pluck verses out of context to achieve a particular message.

Holy Shht man!

What do you think they've been doing with homosexuality for centuries?

Did you recently have an epiphany?

#26 | Posted by ClownShack at 2020-12-24 03:31 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"...I don't have answers."

LOL!!!

A moment of clarity for ol' Billy J!

#27 | Posted by Angrydad at 2020-12-24 03:49 PM | Reply

As long as rubes continue to tithe... all is well.

#28 | Posted by snuffy at 2020-12-24 06:52 PM | Reply

Jpw,

"Also, you have zero ability to say the outcome would have been different without prayer."

And you have zero ability to say the outcome isn't any different.

Unless you have the ability to travel back in time and relive time lines, you can't be positive any more than me.

You see nothing and say you saw nothing...and you are right.

However, I see miracles and you tell me I didn't?

How do you know what I have experienced or have seen with my eyes?

#29 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-24 10:02 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

How's that Compassionate Caring Creator doing
for yah? And what, at Christmas no less?

Sending Thoughts & Prayers,

The Rational Atheist...

#30 | Posted by earthmuse at 2020-12-24 10:15 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Jpw,

In the Bible when you read it as a whole, you come away with the impression faith is required for miracles to manifest.

Perhaps it's as simple as that.

I believe in miracles and you don't.

#31 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-24 10:17 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Earth,

Miracles are not God's way of solving your problems.

#32 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-24 10:26 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Earth,

God wants us free and to choose to use our freedom to worship Him.

I've seen what I believe is God providing opportunities or assistance.

But I had to do the work.

#33 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-24 10:31 PM | Reply

What if we want to hate him? What if we believe but loathe the sumbitch? How does "God" deal with being hated?

#34 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-12-24 10:44 PM | Reply

How does "God" deal with being hated?

He pardons a bunch of --------.

#35 | Posted by REDIAL at 2020-12-24 11:10 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Eff,

"How does "God" deal with being hated?"

Certainly that's nothing new and you wouldn't be unique.

Humans are emotional.

We also have a free will to ask God to forgive us.

I think he will if you can ask.

If you are angry with God...well...try to get over it.

If you want to curse God...I am afraid for you.

#36 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-24 11:18 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

However, I see miracles and you tell me I didn't?
How do you know what I have experienced or have seen with my eyes?
#29 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

Sheesh, you seem to be reaching out here. So I'll bite:

Odds are, what you THINK you saw as miracles have perfectly discernable, scientific, and practical explanations that you would prefer to ignore to maintain the narrative that God has some tangible affect on the things that happen around you and those you know.

It's called god of the gaps theory and perfectly explains why JPW refuses to acknowledge these variables as miracles while you do. JPW is a man of science, hence, his view point would FIRST assume there is a scientific explanation for the phenomenon you chalk up to as God's plan through acts of miracles, while you maintain (without scientific backing) that the variables and outcomes being discussed some how are being orchestrated by something that can be neither seen nor touched, something that can ONLY be recognized through faith. You're literally tapping into the fundamental differences of thought between you two and all you can do is say "How do you know what I have experienced or seen with my eyes?"?

Jesus ------- Christ. That's all I have to say, is JESUS ------- CHRIST.

#37 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2020-12-24 11:39 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

However, I see miracles and you tell me I didn't?

How do you know what I have experienced or have seen with my eyes?

#29 | Posted by BillJohnson

You've seen what you want to see.

And probably haven't sought out explanations beyond the "miracle" label because you saw what you wanted to see.

Without serious effort that is the default mode of human nature.

#38 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-24 11:55 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

If you want to curse God...I am afraid for you.

#36 | Posted by BillJohnson

Why? Hating God is as big a waste of time as praying.

Because. God. Doesn't. Exist.

#39 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-24 11:57 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Eff,

Actually... I have a question for you.

How does someone believe in God and not get angry at times?

People who believe nothing about God don't care anyway.

But people who believe in the power of God and yet life is discouraging and hope can be hard to find, how do you not get angry?

#40 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-25 12:14 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Watching a loved one lose their reason and their life,was hard.

Watching her own children turn away and treat her like a thing was worse.

If man was created in Gods Image?

God must be a truly loathesone being indeed.

This is what my life has shown me.

That,or JPW,is right and "God" is a fiction.

Frankly,God as a fiction,is far less painful to live with.

#41 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-12-25 12:37 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

So tragic.

I know loads of Christians, the one's in my church and my friends' churches best (obviously). We are ALL being very cautious, those of us who are meeting wear masks, distance AT LEAST six feet, and follow all the rules in our state (one of the most restrictive in the nation).

My "snapshot" is that Christians *I know personally* take this very seriously. I have distant family and acquaintances who don't, but please don't put all of us in the same boat.

Let's be careful and responsible, not just out there but with our in person and online words.

#42 | Posted by drivelikejehu at 2020-12-25 12:37 AM | Reply

I wonder if what you call the power of prayer is the same thing that academics call the placebo effect.

#8 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2020-12-24 10:58 AM | REPLY |

I wonder if you even conceive of what COULD BE true.

I'm decades past when I should've had knee surgery but got physically healed from prayers in Jesus' name.

And I was a skeptic about physical healing.

#43 | Posted by drivelikejehu at 2020-12-25 12:41 AM | Reply

With absolutely zero pain or symptoms. 28 years later

#44 | Posted by drivelikejehu at 2020-12-25 12:42 AM | Reply

I put humanity at large in the same boat,dude.

We are all fallen. I don't believe in God.

I do believe humanity is fatally flawed and will suicide as a species.

No one person is to blame. Many are apparently blameless.

The flaw is in our group development. Not individuals.

War,class exclusion,slavery,and economic strangleholds.

Man can't co-exist with anything, different or threatening for long.

We kill everything we love.

Our fate is total oblivion.

The world will thank us.

#45 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-12-25 12:47 AM | Reply

Soooooooo were his prayers answered or what?

#46 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2020-12-25 01:06 AM | Reply

- Because. God. Doesn't. Exist.

Something no real scientist would ever claim as fact.

#47 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-25 01:12 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Nope.

#48 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-12-25 01:13 AM | Reply

Can Science Rule Out God?

blogs.scientificamerican.com

Can Science Disprove the Existence of God?

"I recognize that in denying the existence of God, I am no less a metaphysician
than is the believer who affirms the existence of God." - Sartre

digitalcommons.brockport.edu

www.researchgate.net

digitalcommons.brockport.edu

or if you like, some say

mindmatters.ai

#49 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-25 01:27 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

LOL!

Why doesn't God heal amputees?

#50 | Posted by LiquidCake at 2020-12-25 01:51 AM | Reply

Something no real scientist would ever claim as fact.

#47 | POSTED BY CORKY

Nonsense.

There's no evidence.

Science functions on evidence.

Religion functions on faith.

If you claim sufficient evidence exists to support a declaration of God's existence then it's no longer faith and you're wandered well outside your realm.

#51 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-25 02:12 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

And here comes corknpaste to overwhelm others with links while smugly acting as if that's a point.

Still can't show you grasp the point of all your c&ps eh? Still letting others do your thinking for you?

#52 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-25 02:16 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Can Science Rule Out God?
blogs.scientificamerican.com

An entire column of God of the Gaps shored up by argument from authority.

Worthless.

#53 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-25 02:21 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that something so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing.' 'But, says Man, the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.' 'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and vanishes in a puff of logic. 'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing."
"Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid from making a small fortune when he used it as the theme of his best-selling book, Well That About Wraps It Up For God."
"Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation."

#54 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2020-12-25 06:16 AM | Reply

You don't see miracles Billy Boy, you are a delusional gullible ----.

#55 | Posted by a_monson at 2020-12-25 06:36 AM | Reply

However, I see miracles and you tell me I didn't?
How do you know what I have experienced or have seen with my eyes?
#29 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

BillJohnson, hear me out.

Let's define a miracle.

Let's say it is, statistically speaking, an event with a one in a million chance of happening.

Now let's say you observe one event every second you are awake.

Statistically speaking, by making that many observations, you will naturally observe a one-in-a-million event every six weeks or so.

Merry Christmas.

#56 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-12-25 11:02 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Boc,
What about a Pastor losing his parents would you prefer to talk about?

#16 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON"

Nothing. I left the Fking thread because you ruined.

It sucks, it's what Alanis Morrissette would call ironic, but in reality it's just more evidence of people's insane reaction to a global pandemic.

And your reaction is proof stupidity is a virus and it is very contagious.

#57 | Posted by bocaink at 2020-12-25 11:45 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

-Nonsense.
There's no evidence.

Nonsense... and obfuscation. We are talking about your claim, without evidence, that God does not exist.

No one here claimed that science says he does.

"I recognize that in denying the existence of God, I am no less a metaphysician
than is the believer who affirms the existence of God." - Sartre

#58 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-25 12:59 PM | Reply

We are talking about your claim, without evidence, that God does not exist.

You can't provide evidence of a negative. Try again.

"I recognize that in denying the existence of God, I am no less a metaphysician
than is the believer who affirms the existence of God." - Sartre

Yawn.

#59 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-25 01:32 PM | Reply

- You can't provide evidence of a negative

Ah so, then you agree that your claim is merely an opinion without evidence.

Good for you. Merry Christmas.

#60 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-25 01:35 PM | Reply

My opinion is based on the fact that there is no evidence for God's existence.

We've already gone over this.

Happy Yule.

#61 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-25 01:50 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Don't bother trying to debate FACTS with someone who believes human beings and dinosaurs lived together, on a BOAT... less than 10,000 years ago.

#62 | Posted by earthworm at 2020-12-25 02:57 PM | Reply

Jpw,
In the Bible when you read it as a whole, you come away with the impression faith is required for miracles to manifest.
Perhaps it's as simple as that.
I believe in miracles and you don't.
#31 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON AT 2020-12-24 10:17 PM | FLAG: (CHOOSE) | FUNNY: 1

Personally, I find the notion of faith manifests as a rude, disincentivizing behavior to ignore the gift of mind - and thereby insult God.

Skeptics are far more likely to experience spiritual growth than any true believer, imo.

#63 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2020-12-25 04:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I recognize that in denying the existence of God, I am no less a metaphysician
than is the believer who affirms the existence of God." - Sartre

You can skip all that simply by asking someone to define G-d.

I've yet to meet the person who can give that definition.

#64 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-12-25 05:08 PM | Reply

Keep on doubting. Doubt always leads to learning and new developments in all fields of endeavour.

Certainty is the real enemy. And faith is fact free certainty. Extra dumb, extra retrograde.

Admitting one doesn't know is far more likely to lead to new knowledge than certainty about false beliefs.

The Inquisition,"knew", the sun rotated around the earth when they tortured Galileo.

Oops.

#65 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2020-12-25 05:17 PM | Reply

Stupid "trumps" all in America.

#66 | Posted by Jaspar at 2020-12-25 11:31 PM | Reply

Eff,

"Watching a loved one lose their reason and their life, was hard."

Love is painful.

Either you love someone who doesn't love you or someone you love slowly leaves you and dies.

Love hurts.

But we do it anyway.

#67 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-26 09:38 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Eff,

Someone flagged my response to you as funny.

There's nothing funny about what you went through.

#68 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-26 11:22 AM | Reply

Red,

I don't take jpw's posts personally.

He doesn't accept miracles but I don't think that's rude. I think there's a certain vanity required to take it personally.

It's doesn't bother me on a personal level.

#69 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-26 11:51 AM | Reply

JPW can believe whatever he chooses. I don't necessarily believe in miracles except sometimes I get that little tap on my shoulder when I'm about to walk into a bad situation.

It's like when the hair on the back of your neck stands up for no apparent reason.

Some people call it guardian angels. I've learned to listen.

#70 | Posted by Twinpac at 2020-12-26 12:03 PM | Reply

Eff,

Faith is the act of choosing to be certain based on lack of evidence.

However to attempt to deny people the right to believe what as they will is being manipulative.

Is that what you consider mentally healthy behavior or the way society should conduct itself if my beliefs have no impact on you?

Believing in miracles is fine and science has proven such a positive attitude is actually beneficial.

Now...not taking a sick child to a doctor claiming to pray instead is foolish and possibly criminal.

Merry Christmas. Show love to the people you love and love you.

#71 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-26 12:06 PM | Reply

"Faith is the act of choosing to be certain based on lack of evidence."

Sounds about right.

Just stop arguing there's evidence for the supernatural.

Because if there's evidence, then it's no longer supernatural.

#72 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-12-26 12:28 PM | Reply

- the fact that there is no evidence for God's existence.

Mebbe, mebbe not.

mindmatters.ai

#73 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-26 01:15 PM | Reply

Are you really arguing G-d is not a supernatural being, Corky?

"3) That Prime Mover is what all men call God (conclusion)"

This is your answer to #64?

You worship the Prime Mover... and His Son?

Give me a break.

#74 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-12-26 01:41 PM | Reply

As usual cork&paste can't lay out his own argument.

I'll give it a read but I'm guessing it's as *ahem* rigorous as the stuff you usually post.

#75 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-26 01:57 PM | Reply

I've never understood some people's need to insist their faith has evidence.

Sort of indicates the faith isn't very strong...

#76 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-26 01:58 PM | Reply

"Faith is the act of choosing to be certain based on lack of evidence."

That perfectly describes your claims of voter fraud: belief, without a shred of proof.

#77 | Posted by Danforth at 2020-12-26 02:01 PM | Reply

From Corky's link:

There's a name for this demonstration"natural theology, which is the science of demonstrating God's existence using evidence and logic. Natural theology may be contrasted with revealed theology, which is the study of God via revelation in Scripture.

LOL these idiots are trying waaaaaay too hard.

In the end they're still trying to prove a conclusion they've already reached. You can't claim that that is "science."

#78 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-26 02:21 PM | Reply

1) Change exists in nature (evidence)
2) Change is the actuation of potentiality and an essential chain of actuations cannot go to infinite regress. A fully actual Prime Mover is necessary (logic)
3) That Prime Mover is what all men call God (conclusion)

LOL wow. That's beyond bad.

#79 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-26 02:26 PM | Reply

We are more scientifically certain of God's existence than we are of quantum mechanics or Newtonian or relativistic gravitation. The logic is rigorous.

Sounds like somebody who is pot committed and trying to rationalize their years long belief in bronze age goat herder myths.

It's all just a giant God of the Gaps type explanation with fancy words thrown in and arguments from authority to shore it up (not that I count Aquinas an authority on anything).

Sorry, cork, but that was a giant swing and a miss.

#80 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-26 02:40 PM | Reply

Jesus responded, "The scriptures also say, 'You must not test the Lord your God'

#1 | Posted by BillJohnson

Yet you'll keep voting for the party that is perfectly willing to see how much damage they can do to the planet god created for us to live on.

#81 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2020-12-26 02:55 PM | Reply

However to attempt to deny people the right to believe what as they will is being manipulative.

#71 | Posted by BillJohnson

You're free to BELIEVE whatever nonsense you want. But when your beliefs start affecting others' lives, then others have the right to limit your impact.

You can BELIEVE that we don't need to protect the climate because jesus is coming back to destroy the planet in 10 years, but if you start basing legislation and policy on your insane beliefs, then you are now a danger to humanity.

#82 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2020-12-26 02:58 PM | Reply

Merry Christmas. Show love to the people you love and love you.

#71 | Posted by BillJohnson

But not to "thy enemy?"

Are we only loving people in our own tribes now? I must have missed that page of the bible.

#83 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2020-12-26 03:17 PM | Reply

Jesus responded, "The scriptures also say, 'You must not test the Lord your God'
#1 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

^
BillJohnson voted for the adulterer.
The false idolater.
The coveter.

#84 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-12-26 03:38 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Mebbe, mebbe not.
mindmatters.ai
#73 | POSTED BYCORKY

Corky,
Inference is not evidence.

#85 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-12-26 03:46 PM | Reply

#85

The premise of the link article is that the same logical inferences used in physics theory is applicable elsewhere.
Which premise has not been disproven here.

= Sorry, cork,

Sorry, JPW'd, characterization is not argument. Never has been... well, except when Laura does it.

#86 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-26 05:14 PM | Reply

Last year's Nobel Prize for Physics winner, Sir Roger Penrose.

www.allaboutphilosophy.org

Penrose, btw, is a long-time member of the British Humanist Society, so not a, "Christer".

related

mathscholar.org

The idea that some people want me to dumb these arguments down into a post for them is pretty funny, really.

#87 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-26 05:29 PM | Reply

"Penrose, btw, is a long-time member of the British Humanist Society, so not a, "Christer".

Exactly.

Science and religion are orthogonal belief systems.

They operate independently of one another.

And that's the way it should be.

#88 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-12-26 05:41 PM | Reply

#87 just admit you don't understand them and can't relay the arguments.

The faux condescension thing doesn't work.

#89 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-26 05:52 PM | Reply

- Science and religion are orthogonal belief systems.

There is much history and interaction between them.

plato.stanford.edu

They do not depend on one another, but neither are they mutually exclusive. I happen to appreciate both, although I don't need one to justify the other.

#89

Did you fart again, Laura?

#90 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-26 06:02 PM | Reply

www.nationalacademies.org

#91 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-26 06:03 PM | Reply

I wish we'd move on past the anti-religion thing. I grew up Catholic and attended 12 years of Catholic school. I never had a bad experience, other than retching over the God-awful incense (sandalwood?) they used ad nauseam (literally) during Mass. I eventually came to the conclusion that nobody has all the answers and became an agnostic/leaning atheist. But I still try to respect the fact that others have a belief system that includes a deity. It doesn't have to mean there is some bearded dude who sits on a cloud. What some people call God might be simply the source of life that started a long-ass time ago that none of us truly understands. I don't know, and you don't know. It's okay. Let it go.

Some of the most beautiful, most open-minded people I know are devoutly religious. I don't get it. Honestly, I think they're wasting their time with all that prayer and incense. But at the same time they are humanists who believe in justice and science and charity and good works. Even good government. I respect them and consider them fellow travelers. Corky seems to be one of these.

All that said, there are far too many believers who leave common sense behind. If you think God will protect you from Covid because you believe and you pray a lot, but you disregard basic safety measures, you're an idiot. Most people are not that stupid.

#92 | Posted by cbob at 2020-12-26 06:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Good post, CB.

#93 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-26 06:46 PM | Reply

"They do not depend on one another, but neither are they mutually exclusive."

Oh yes they are.

The supernatural is, by definition, apart from the natural.

Quit trying to sneak the camel's nose under the science tent.

I don't go around trying to teach evolution in Sunday School.

#94 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-12-26 06:59 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"In practical terms, in probability theory, odds of less than 1 in 1050 equals "zero probability". Penrose's number is more than trillion trillion trillion times less than that. In short, Penrose's number tells us that the "accidental" or "coincidental" creation of our universe is an impossibility.

Concerning this mind-boggling number Roger Penrose comments:

"This now tells how precise the Creator's aim must have been, namely to an accuracy of one part in 10 to the 10123rd power. This is an extraordinary figure. One could not possibly even write the number down in full in the ordinary denary notation: it would be 1 followed by 10123 successive 0's." Even if we were to write a 0 on each separate proton and on each separate neutron in the entire universe- and we could throw in all the other particles for good measure- we would fall far short of writing down the figure needed.1

It takes far more "faith" to believe that this happened by chance than to believe that it was instigated by an incredibly powerful mind. The latter inference does not require blind faith!"

from the first link in 87

Which is why we now have some very creative physics, as in the second link in 87, such as multiverses, to 'splain how those odds might be met.

Another creative theory is simulation theory, which we've talked about here before, it's at simulation-argument.com, I think.

So, what would Occam's Razor say about these alternative solutions? Which requires less assumptions? That there are an infinite number of universes? That some futuristic lab rat simulated reality? That there is some other convoluted process? Or that there was a Creator?

Just asking. I, of course, don't "know" the answer, like some religionists and some science-only people seem to, but the answers are worth pondering, not dismissing out of hand as myths or maths.

I do, however, also like Douglas Adams' "42". It about says it all, and humorously to boot.

#95 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-26 06:59 PM | Reply

#94

Now you are just making declarative statements, like JPW, er, I mean Laura.

I posted some scholarly articles on the question in both 89 and 91.... none of them say, "nu-uh!".

#96 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-26 07:02 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"This now tells how precise the Creator's aim must have been, namely to an accuracy of one part in 10 to the 10123rd power."

^
This isn't even an argument.
It's merely an observation.

"In practical terms, in probability theory, odds of less than 1 in 1050 equals "zero probability".

The WTC stood for something like 10,000 days without having any planes fly into it.

I guess 9/11 can only mean G-d exists.

Go soak your head.

#97 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-12-26 07:09 PM | Reply

lmao.... sciencey types who hate the maths.

What WILL they think of next??

#98 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-26 07:17 PM | Reply

Did you fart again, Laura?

#90 | Posted by Corky

Sidestepping making any sort of actual argument. Again.

#99 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-26 07:20 PM | Reply

This isn't even an argument.
It's merely an observation.

It's not even an observation.

It's a statement without evidence.

And even though he keeps dropping Penrose's name, he's not actually making an argument to support his assertions.

Expect snide, meaningless comments and more C&Ps as he congratulates himself on "rebutting" me.

#100 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-26 07:24 PM | Reply

I don't feel sorry for him.

#101 | Posted by byrdman at 2020-12-26 07:30 PM | Reply

#99 |

That's several posts in a row from you sans any argument.

#100

There's another... you do know that you making a declarative statement isn't an argument, right?

What I keep dropping is Penrose's math.... around which many models of the physics of our universe revolve.

#102 | Posted by Corky at 2020-12-26 07:33 PM | Reply

Bob,

"Some of the most beautiful, most open-minded people I know are devoutly religious."

And intelligent. Some people believe intelligence would naturally lead a person to demand scientific proof for everything.

Depending on your temperament that would happen for some.

Intelligence can also free your mind so you realise this universe is vast and not everything fits together.

The more we know...the less we know.

#103 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2020-12-26 08:25 PM | Reply

"What I keep dropping is Penrose's math.... around which many models of the physics of our universe revolve."

Ain't nothing supernatural about that!

Hence, you're not really talking about G-d.

(You're talking about Roger Penrose.)

#104 | Posted by snoofy at 2020-12-26 08:31 PM | Reply

What I keep dropping is Penrose's math.... around which many models of the physics of our universe revolve.

#102 | Posted by Corky

What you keep dropping is his name hoping to make an argument from authority.

Mentioning a big number he supposedly calculated somehow isn't an argument either.

#105 | Posted by jpw at 2020-12-26 09:09 PM | Reply

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