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Sunday, February 21, 2021

Two states, two VERY different COVID tactics.... but the same depressing result: California ordered strict lockdowns, while Florida 'trusted common sense' and now both have nearly identical case rates, hospitalizations and deaths

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Two states, two VERY different COVID tactics.... but the same depressing result: California ordered strict lockdowns, while Florida 'trusted common sense' and now both have nearly identical case rates, hospitalizations and deaths

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Absurd comparison.

But, yeah, whatever...

#1 | Posted by Angrydad at 2021-02-21 10:46 AM | Reply

"Absurd comparison."

How is it absurd?

Demographically, Florida should have posted higher numbers due to the larger number of older folks that live there. It didn't.

I think that lockdowns were really an only option heading into the Pandemic-it's not something that western governments had much experience with. Now that we are able to observe the results of different polices in different states, that's what should be used to formulate future policy.

To me, it would seem difficult to mandate a mask policy when it doesn't appear that it necessarily produces a different outcome.

#2 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-02-21 11:36 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

CA: Age and Sex
Persons under 5 years, 6.0%
Persons under 18 years, 22.5%
Persons 65 years and over, 14.8%
www.census.gov

FL: Age and Sex
Persons under 5 years, 5.3%
Persons under 18 years, 19.7%
Persons 65 years and over, 20.9%
www.census.gov

To me, it would seem difficult to mandate a mask policy when it doesn't appear that it necessarily produces a different outcome.

That premise is incorrect. Florida locked down tight in all the major population counties at the start. You can't apply DeSantis' 'rule' in Florida to all the Counties (where the cast majority of the population live). Right now we're back in a mask mandated period where I live and every single business, every employee has been wearing masks for weeks. I never quit wearing a mask. Plexiglass dividers are still everywhere. Masks are being worn by a good 90% of the people I see.

We had a period where things got lax, but the numbers took off again and (most) people acted responsibly again with our County Manager mandating mask wearing again. It's true DeSantis has cut the 'teeth' out of enforcing the mandate (can't shut down businesses that don't comply now), but businesses are responding to being publicly called out. It's also true that "red" counties have followed DeSantis' garbage rules and screwed up stats for the State. Summer was a -------- because of DeSantis and people listening to him. Just like Spring Break was.

Also major corporations here shut down all operations at their facilities. There is no going into the plant to work. You can't to it at my company without a waiver from the plant manager, and an OK from your boss and your bosses boss. We're all working from home - unless you're in tourism (where Disney/Universal/Sea World, etc. have implemented masking requirements for everyone, put sanitizer stations everywhere, and more, or grocery/restaurants/small businesses. All despite DeSantis. Thank goodness most responsible Corporations are saying "thanks, but no thanks!" to DeSantis 'rules'.

Also, the author of the article has it wrong with schools in Florida. Yes, classrooms are open with strict requirements, masking, physical distancing, directional paths, etc. however virtual (remote) and hybrid are all fully active and funded through 2021. This article grossly oversimplifies everything trying to make some point that just isn't there.
www.mynews13.com
Even with that we're having quarantines going on and off over and over here for students, teachers, vendors, support staff. People are getting sick.

I'm also going to point out this obvious admission in the article:
The number of cases (per capita) reported are still much higher in Florida and the hospitalizations are twice as high in Florida. Florida also got hit later in the cycle - so the numbers are skewed a bit.

Compare the two graphs:
www.google.com
www.google.com
You can see CA had it under control until recently, and there are reasons for the spike for CA. Florida never fully got it together as a State, and the only good numbers are due to major counties giving DeSantis the finger.

#3 | Posted by YAV at 2021-02-21 12:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Oh - and if the issue is "mask wearing" there are better states to compare for analysis.

Next time you have surgery, be sure to tell the nurses, assistants, the surgeon, the anesthesiologist not to bother with wearing masks since it doesn't matter.

You really aren't aware of how genuinely stupid you sound, are you?

#4 | Posted by YAV at 2021-02-21 12:51 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

He's smarter than us, in his mind.
He can see through the mask!

#5 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-02-21 12:53 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

-Next time you have surgery, be sure to tell the nurses, assistants, the surgeon, the anesthesiologist not to bother with wearing masks since it doesn't matter.

How is that relevant?

#6 | Posted by eberly at 2021-02-21 12:58 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

-To me, it would seem difficult to mandate a mask policy when it doesn't appear that it necessarily produces a different outcome.

It's more than mask mandates. Florida was also more lax on other policies. Stadiums, beaches, other commerce, etc.

The results aren't far off which is the point. As Yav points out, counties made their own decisions when the governor wasn't being tough enough.

#7 | Posted by eberly at 2021-02-21 01:01 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

That premise is incorrect.

You have to realize MadBomber doesn't live in America and there's been more than a few things he's posted which lead me to believe he isn't actually an American.

He seems to get all his "news" from Rightwing, conservative, QAnon based sources.

So why does he post here?

To stir the pot.

Add misinformation and disinformation.

He clearly hates Americans because, "we're all ungrateful for living in the global 1%."

#8 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-02-21 01:02 PM | Reply

OK, you got it, Eberly - but I had this typed already so I'm leaving it in, dammit! :)

To me, it would seem difficult to mandate a mask policy when it doesn't appear that it necessarily produces a different outcome.

Why should the hospital mandate mask wearing during surgeries, Eberly?
Wearing a mask doesn't produce a different outcome.
Make it all voluntary.
Let's see what happens.

As if we don't know.

For example - Kansas did this and counties that had a mask mandate for COVID saw half the infections per capita compared against those counties in KS that had no mandate.

A University of Kansas study released this week backs up what health officials have been telling us for months: Masks do work by significantly slowing the spread of COVID-19.

"We found a 50% reduction in the spread of COVID-19 in counties that had a mask mandate compared to those without," Donna K. Ginther, director of the Institute for Policy and Social Research at KU, said in video presenting the study's findings.

"Masks, it is important to note, do not eliminate COVID, but they significantly slow the spread of the disease " at least here in Kansas," she said.

www.kansascity.com

#9 | Posted by YAV at 2021-02-21 01:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

9

Sure. The higher populated counties in Kansas drove our rates and we're compelled to implement mandates.

County mandates and the enforcement of them is where the infection rates were impacted.

What was done at the state level has been less significant

At least that is my take.

And I'm a proponent of masks. Don't misunderstand. Hospital staff understand how they work and why they work.

Average joe rednecks still don't

#10 | Posted by eberly at 2021-02-21 01:18 PM | Reply

It's true, Average Joe Rednecks aren't exactly sought out for their understanding.

#11 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-02-21 01:55 PM | Reply

Whoo boy. Cailfornia nipped it in the bud early, OUR GLORIOUS LEADER declared it a Sino-Crat hoax, and all the Proud Boys and Girls in Huntington Beach spread their Covid on the 4th. As OUR GLORIOUS LEADER continued to GOLF as thousands of Americans died alone and intubated, what should have been over in 6 months spread into November and December. Ridiculous comparisons.

#12 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2021-02-21 02:10 PM | Reply

This is definitely something worth exploring on the municipal level and the corresponding demographics in those local areas - I'm sure there will be people doing this type of research in the years ahead. The raw data isn't easily available yet to load it into Strata or R and do cross sectional comparisons over time periods where local public policy impacted communities.
FL definitely delegated to local communities more than CA's state government.

#13 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2021-02-21 02:33 PM | Reply

It'll be interesting to overlay [state vs local policies, results and outcomes + internal emails FOIA'd] in FL vs CA, as well.

What was discussed, proposed, left on the chopping block vs implemented. Looking forward to the after action reports once we're through the pandemic.

#14 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2021-02-21 02:38 PM | Reply

"This is definitely something worth exploring on the municipal level and the corresponding demographics in those local areas - I'm sure there will be people doing this type of research in the years ahead. "

Spoiler alert:
The results will be in line with the finding that states with stricter gun control have less gun crime.

#15 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-02-21 05:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

CA's gov did what he could and worthless cops refused to do their ------ jobs while businesses openly continues to function and health inspectors were driven from communities.

The only places in California that took shutting down seriously where government buildings and bars.

#16 | Posted by Tor at 2021-02-21 06:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Tor,
He's calling DeSantis not doing anything "delegating."
Typical Trumper fake news, specifically in the form of "revisionist history."

"(CNN)Warning signs about a Covid-19 spike have been flashing red in Florida this fall: Coronavirus hospitalizations have been rising since November, the test positivity rate is double what it was in early October, and the tally of new daily cases is nearing the state's July peak.
But Floridians who rely on Gov. Ron DeSantis and his administration might hardly know the pandemic is still a serious danger.
The Florida health department's social media feeds have barely mentioned Covid-19 in months, breaking the silence only this week to celebrate the arrival of the first vaccines."
www.cnn.com

^
To a Republican, that's called "delegating."

These cancers need to be removed before they kill us all.

#17 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-02-21 07:00 PM | Reply

Snoofy what he's doing is worse.

He's claiming that the lockdowns had no effect so we might as well reopen everything.

#18 | Posted by Tor at 2021-02-21 07:03 PM | Reply

MadBomber would claim the lockdowns are bad, even if they proved to be effective.

GoNoles on the other hand is just an opportunist. He bandwagons on whatever might most benefit a man of his morals. Then, he "regrets" his reprehensible choices later -- but doesn't actually change any of his behavior and thinking as a person. He just learns to live with the faux outrage of his own regret. In fact, that's probably the one skill he's really honed, is saying it's okay afterwards.

You know that saying, applied to politics and work situations, that it's easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission? That's how he manages his own conscience. Lots of people are like that. Some of them aren't even Republicans!

#19 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-02-21 07:14 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

You quarantine the sick, not the healthy.

#20 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2021-02-21 11:44 PM | Reply

You lie.

There's no way to tell who's sick and who's healthy.

Time answers that question.

That's how quarantine works.

#21 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-02-22 12:36 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"You quarantine the sick, not the healthy."

How can anyone get this far into a pandemic and not understand ASYMPTOMATIC CONTAGION?
bgr.com

#22 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-02-22 01:15 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Look at the two over time:

www.worldometers.info

www.worldometers.info

CA was a slow burn. FL was large bursts.

Guess what lock downs are supposed to do...

Also, just because they were put in place doesn't mean they were followed. There are historic examples where lockdowns were enforced and worked quite well. People now are too entitle, stupid and ignorant.

#23 | Posted by jpw at 2021-02-22 11:11 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Sweden got it right.

#24 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2021-02-22 12:11 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Sweden got it right.

#24 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT

You're about six months behind the times.

Even Sweden admitted they got it wrong and their approach didn't help their populace or economy, it just resulted in higher death rates.

#25 | Posted by jpw at 2021-02-22 12:46 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"MadBomber would claim the lockdowns are bad, even if they proved to be effective."

Whoa, easy Champ. I didn't invent this stuff. I saw it for the first time on Smerconish's CNN show. And I pretty much trust Smerconish as an objective dude. I think most people do.

"Also, just because they were put in place doesn't mean they were followed."

If the restrictions intended to help people don't actually help them...what's the purpose in the first place?

I've heard tales of many a sheriff who was refusing to enforce state-ordered lock-down restrictions. Is that cop on the side of the state or the side of the people? Whose side should they be on?

#26 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-02-22 02:02 PM | Reply

"Even Sweden admitted they got it wrong and their approach didn't help their populace or economy, it just resulted in higher death rates."

That's not really a fair thing to say because the pandemic is ongoing. You can say between time "A" and time "B" there was a deathrate delta of x, but we have yet to reach a final time "B"

And between two countries who experience "y" lockdowns during the pandemic over a shorter period of time with less restrictions, that's a success story when compared to the state that spent more time in lock-down, but wound up with the same number of courses.

I just popped an ambien...I will be leaving soon

#27 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-02-22 02:06 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Adjusting for population, Florida has 5,043 COVID-19 cases and 91 deaths per 100,000 residents while California has about 4,595 cases and 51 deaths per 100,000, showing a similar curve

Not too sure how nearly double the death rate is "similar".

#28 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar at 2021-02-22 02:08 PM | Reply

"If the restrictions intended to help people don't actually help them...what's the purpose in the first place?"

It's like asking "Why even have mail-in voting, if the Postmaster General can always just sabotage the mail sorting machines?"

#29 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-02-22 02:09 PM | Reply

#23 | Posted by jpw

China 2020 would be one. Not that I am a fan of or endorse the Chinese and their tactics for lock down enforcement nor do I necessarily believe their numbers overall. But I believe they did much better than most anyone else of any size.

#30 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2021-02-22 05:29 PM | Reply

#27 | Posted by madbomber

SWEDEN SAID IT. We are a year into this and time has told the tale. They acknowledged they are doing worse than most countries with their tactic.

#31 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2021-02-22 05:31 PM | Reply

#28 | Posted by Derek_Wildstar

Don't forget those are based on "DeSantis Figures" so it is likely much worse overall.

#32 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2021-02-22 05:32 PM | Reply

If the restrictions intended to help people don't actually help them...what's the purpose in the first place?
I've heard tales of many a sheriff who was refusing to enforce state-ordered lock-down restrictions. Is that cop on the side of the state or the side of the people? Whose side should they be on?

#26 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

You're treating it as zero sum when that's not the case.

Incomplete compliance led to decreased efficacy.

But even incomplete compliance was better than none at all, especially in a state with the population density of CA that would have rapidly overwhelmed hospitals if FL type bursts had happened.

As for sheriffs refusing to enforce them they should be stripped of their positions. They're not there to judge what laws are valid or not.

#33 | Posted by jpw at 2021-02-22 10:00 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Yes Absolutely they were. Anyone with half a brain knows this.

#34 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2021-02-22 11:30 PM | Reply

For me, it would seem difficult to mandate a mask policy when it doesn't appear that it necessarily.

#35 | Posted by jacksmartin at 2021-02-23 02:01 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"For me, it would seem difficult to mandate a mask policy when it doesn't appear that it necessarily."

500,000 dead Americans.

#36 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-02-23 02:43 AM | Reply

"SWEDEN SAID IT. We are a year into this and time has told the tale. They acknowledged they are doing worse than most countries with their tactic."

Is the pandemic over in Sweden?

Until it's over within a given country, you can't really make any meaningful comparisons. And what exactly do you mean by "worse?" Economically, Sweden seems to be doing better than most.

#37 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-02-23 11:24 AM | Reply

"As for sheriffs refusing to enforce them they should be stripped of their positions. They're not there to judge what laws are valid or not."

That's absolutely fair.

But what about the people? Do they get to judge if the laws are valid or not? If the voters of Mojave county decided to vote against a state or federally mandated lockdown...would that matter to you? And if the voters of Mojave county did vote that way, would the county sheriff be obligated to support those who voted for him or her?

#38 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-02-23 11:27 AM | Reply

If the voters of Mojave county decided to vote against a state or federally mandated lockdown...would that matter to you?

You don't understand how our system of government works, do you?

#39 | Posted by jpw at 2021-02-23 12:12 PM | Reply

"But what about the people? Do they get to judge if the laws are valid or not?"

Question makes no sense.

How can you view any law be valid, when the enforcement mechanism is the coercive power of the state, ultimately backstopped with a gun to your head?

#40 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-02-23 01:52 PM | Reply

"You don't understand how our system of government works, do you?"

I don't know.

Who does a County Sherriff answer to?

#41 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-02-23 02:27 PM | Reply

"How can you view any law be valid, when the enforcement mechanism is the coercive power of the state, ultimately backstopped with a gun to your head?"

Marijuana is illegal at the Federal level, yet many states have legalized it.

Your argument appears to be that local law enforcement officers in these states should be obligated to uphold the highest law in the land, even if it is conflict with lower echelon laws that are more reflective of the will of the people.

#42 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-02-23 02:30 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

I don't know.
Who does a County Sherriff answer to?

#41 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

The people technically.

Which makes them on par with other government officials.

Difference being officials make laws and sheriffs enforce them.

But my comment was broader than that. A locality can't make laws that supersede federal law. They can only make laws to refine federal law or fill in gaps that federal law doesn't cover.

#43 | Posted by jpw at 2021-02-23 02:44 PM | Reply

MadBomber, what's your answer?

"How can you view any law be valid, when the enforcement mechanism is the coercive power of the state, ultimately backstopped with a gun to your head?"

What's your answer?

#44 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-02-23 03:08 PM | Reply

"But my comment was broader than that. A locality can't make laws that supersede federal law."

So...Marijuana? Is that pretty much what the states did with marijuana laws? Supersede them? or at least compel/demand local LE not to enforce those laws?

#45 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-02-23 03:28 PM | Reply

#45 as is the case with most things, it depends.
www.quora.com

#46 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-02-23 03:31 PM | Reply

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