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Friday, May 07, 2021

Contemporary worship can mean many things but I have seen how it often debases religion and can often turn church services into little more than pop concerts every Sunday morning. This is the fate of many Evangelical churches.

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We have a large Baptist church in my town I visited once. What was there was indistinguishable from a Vegas lounge act, a poor one. People need fellowship. Entertainment venues are everywhere.

#1 | Posted by Zed at 2021-05-07 05:46 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Perhaps related? The Christianity practiced by the American Right is a cult. Jesus has very little to do with it. I expect someone to declare Trump a god. I expect Trump to accept the title.

#2 | Posted by Zed at 2021-05-07 05:49 PM | Reply

I was just going to make this link a thread, but it fits rather nicely here:

"Christian" has been hijacked - Let's take it back!"

www.youtube.com

Ck out some of his other recent vlogs: Is Trump a Beast? Jesus and the Radical Left.

Rev Ed and Beau of the Fifth Column sub each other's vlogs.

#3 | Posted by Corky at 2021-05-07 06:08 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Probably the best church I've been to is the Alliaance Bible Church in Waco, TX, which I believe is an offshoot of the First Christian Church. They rotate ministers every two years. The services were civil and reverent. The music was just a couple of acoustic guitars and a Hammond organ. No silly mood music during the collection plate passing. The pastor was a truly upright man, but had one foot on the ground and one in the Higher Plain. They spend a large portion of their offerings and tithes on medical missionary projects around the third world.

No pew jumping or tongues or falling out in the Spirit or any kind of boisterousness. If I ever were to go back to a church building, it would probably be that one. But, my high school girlfriend's parents still go there. So, it's Nestle's Greek New Testament with the exact interlinear English translation and the Hebrew Tanakh with interlinear English translation until then.

#4 | Posted by madscientist at 2021-05-07 07:51 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Zed,

"The Christianity practiced by the American Right is a cult. Jesus has very little to do with it. I expect someone to declare Trump a god. I expect Trump to accept the title."

You talk about America Right Christianity being a cult and then say those Christians will declare Trump a god.

Then they wouldn't be Christians, would they?

Certainly there are a lot people who talk about Christianity but are Christian in name only.

There's plenty of liberals and conservatives who believe themselves to be Christian that I am sure some of them aren't.

#5 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-05-07 07:56 PM | Reply

#4 |

So MadS.... if you are interested in translations, this PhD is a hyperpolyglot; reads, writes, speaks at least 2 dozen languages, including ancient Hebrew, Koinonia Greek, Aramaic, and Latin. Also has the largest collection of ancient bibles and related manuscripts extant in private hands.... including a Wycliffe Bible ca 1389 that you can view virtually at the Pastor's Library tab.

www.pastormelissascott.com

#6 | Posted by Corky at 2021-05-07 08:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Dr Scotts late husband was half carnival barker half saint and definitely the inspiration for doctor teeth.

#7 | Posted by Tor at 2021-05-07 08:35 PM | Reply

Then they wouldn't be Christians, would they?

#5 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON AT

If they declared Trump a god? No, they wouldn't.

But many already declare Trump an Anointed One. Not sure they aren't already there.

#8 | Posted by Zed at 2021-05-07 08:40 PM | Reply

New Orleans musician Dr. John was the actual model for Dr Teeth.

This is Doc Scott in the early 80's when I came across him:

www.pastormelissascott.com

#9 | Posted by Corky at 2021-05-07 08:56 PM | Reply

I believe Corky, Zed, and I are singing out of the same hymnal when it comes to American-style Christianity. We've evidently been discouraged by the state of it for some time now.

My father was an itinerant ordained Assembly of God minister and used Bible verses to demean me at every opportunity. So, I had to learn the Bible from front to back by the time I was 16 to defend myself, which when I did, usually resulted in a slap to the face.

Whenever I'd recite an opposing scripture to his onslaught, he wasn't dumbfounded or proud that his son had learned the scripture so well, but took it as effrontery to his patriarchal authority.

It only resulted in me hating to go to church, especially an Assembly of God/Pentecostal church. But, I knew the difference even at that tender young age in the difference between religion and keeping God's, Jesus', and Socrates' commandments.

As Clownshack rightly recognizes, Religion is a Business.

Tax-free I might add.

#10 | Posted by madscientist at 2021-05-07 09:03 PM | Reply

The way they were willing to wage war for trump is how one treats a God or a representative of God.

#11 | Posted by Tor at 2021-05-07 09:03 PM | Reply

#10

That's a tough row to hoe. Good way to learn the differences between religion and discipleship, though.

My dad was more interested in smoking pot and driving big rigs than either of those things, lol. I was baptized at a too early age really, around 7 years old, after seeing a traveling preacher. He was under 5 ft tall, heavy, unattractive, and blind. But he had such joy and love that I was overcome.

That was at a Baptist church. Years later in high school, girlfriend's dad was an Elder in a Church of Christ. They baptized my ass a couple of more times over the years because argued with them pretty much the way you die... and they were convinced that that first one didn't take!

#12 | Posted by Corky at 2021-05-07 09:15 PM | Reply

because I... you did

i'll stop typing now

#13 | Posted by Corky at 2021-05-07 09:17 PM | Reply

"used Bible verses to demean me at every opportunity."

That's twisted man.

I hope you've gotten some help.

#14 | Posted by Tor at 2021-05-07 09:25 PM | Reply

Thank you, Tor. I have. It took 40 years to get it, but it helped.

#15 | Posted by madscientist at 2021-05-07 09:26 PM | Reply

Corky, you're right. I've always said about my dad that at least he wasn't a drunkard, pill-popper, or pothead. His drug of choice was the power that religion held over people. He wanted that power so bad. He'd watch preachers rouse the congregation into a frenzy and wanted that same power over people. He was half German and half English, so when I saw him preach, he reminded me of the animations of Hitler at the Nuremburg rallies.

#16 | Posted by madscientist at 2021-05-07 09:30 PM | Reply

Corky, I was Baptized at an early age, as well. Twice in fact. Once in a non-denominational church at around 10, then at an Assembly of God church around 12...because the pastor said if you weren't Baptized at his church, you really weren't baptized. Then they tried Baptizing me in the Holy Spirit, but to no avail. I already had it.

My ex-fiancee who had an MS in Psychology told me I had the strongest Superego she'd ever met. Maybe that's what the world calls a conscience.

#17 | Posted by madscientist at 2021-05-07 09:35 PM | Reply

#16

Wow... that's a disturbing picture.

My youngest brother and I were looking for some keys in dad's desk and found his stash. We just looked at each other and knew what we had to do... take some and see if he was smoking the good stuff. He definitely was.

#18 | Posted by Corky at 2021-05-07 09:36 PM | Reply

#17

Maybe it is. My degrees were in psych and counseling. Every semester I went to the library psych section and found all the new books there and read them, because I'd already read all the others.

I "lost my faith" in college, and then found it again years later with Dr. Scott's preaching on the resurrection. One version of that, an early one, is in the link in #9. It was a critical analysis, based on the werk of CS Lewis, Tozier, and others, not an emotional appeal.

Doc always said that actual Christians didn't find it necessary to leave their brain at the church door.

#19 | Posted by Corky at 2021-05-07 09:43 PM | Reply

A. W. Tozer

#20 | Posted by Corky at 2021-05-07 09:46 PM | Reply

en.wikipedia.org

#21 | Posted by Corky at 2021-05-07 09:50 PM | Reply

www.goodreads.com

ok. done now

#22 | Posted by Corky at 2021-05-07 10:01 PM | Reply

Even though it's a common theme that scientists by definition cannot believe in a God, I've found that insufficient. I was caught too early at age 5 in church and cannot not believe in a God.

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

--Proverbs 22:6 (KJV)

When my beloved Siamese cat died, I drove to the liquor store in Waco to assuage my anguish, and with the half-gallon plastic bottle rolling around on the passenger seat, I yelled, "God damn you God. You took one of the last things I loved, you ------------. There is an evil thread within you that you don't comprehend."

Thereby proving that I still believed in God.

When my father and mother died, I accepted it as this is the way things are, but for some reason my cat's death hit me hard and fast. I put her in a plastic grocery bag and dug a hole in the backyard and buried her. Ever since, the grass there has grown greener and fuller than any other place in my backyard.

My dad had a proper casket burial 26 years ago, and my mother wished to be cremated. So, during the burial next to my dad's tomb, my sister and I dropped her remains into the six-foot hole and I filled in the hole to save my sister and brother-in-law the $100 for the hole-filling fee. Her people had been buried in that selfsame cemetery since the 1860s. So, I knew it well.

My sister had learned to play elementary guitar and played and sang "Amazing Grace" and "I'll Fly Away", which was my mother's favorite number to play on the upright piano we used to have.

My brother-in-law was the MC and did a fine job. I was in no shape to participate in any of the proceedings, but just stood there, motionless. Looking into the foot-wide augered hole that was prepared for my mom's remains.

About 50 people showed up. Some I hadn't seen in years. But I was in too much of a daze to converse with them to any great degree. I finally told my sister, "Let's get the hell out of here."

And we did.

#23 | Posted by madscientist at 2021-05-07 10:03 PM | Reply

- Thereby proving that I still believed in God.

lol!

He's heard worse.

this was first published in 1948... see if the preface doesn't sound like it could have been published today about today's church:

www.gutenberg.org

#24 | Posted by Corky at 2021-05-07 10:25 PM | Reply

In case anyone is unfamiliar with the tune, here's a pretty-good rendition by Johnny Cash:

Jonny Cash--"I'll Fly Away"

The chords are simple: G G Cadd9 G G G Em G D7 G G G Cadd9 G G G7 D7/Em G D7 G G G Cadd9 G G G Em G D7 G G Cadd9 G G Em G D7 G.

#25 | Posted by madscientist at 2021-05-07 10:40 PM | Reply

My sister played it in Bmaj with the capo on the second fret because she couldn't sing the Em bass vocals. But it still werked. I was too distraught to accompany her on my 12 string, but she did it with aplomb.

#26 | Posted by madscientist at 2021-05-07 10:45 PM | Reply

Alison Krauss - I'll fly away

www.youtube.com

#27 | Posted by Corky at 2021-05-07 10:56 PM | Reply

"You talk about America Right Christianity being a cult and then say those Christians will declare Trump a god. Then they wouldn't be Christians, would they?"

You're joking, right? They worship a guy who regularly breaks half of the Ten Commandments. They're already not "Christians".

#28 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-05-07 11:10 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The half-owner of a company I worked for wanted worshipping more than anything. I was young, about 24, but recognized his penchant for being adored. I told my boss that Pete wants worship, and I simply cannot worship a human being.

My boss, who was the VP and PhD who graduated from Tuskegee University of the company agreed with me. But he was about 50 at the time and simply looked at the ground, shoegazing, during our dress-down by this half owner. At the time, I was pissed. I wanted him to stand up to this bully and defend our R&D/QC department. But to no avail. It would be 30 years before I understood why he didn't get up in this -------- face. He had too many responsibilities and obligations to put his hefty salary in jeopardy. He told me afterward, "Don't worry, Richard...these guys always come to a bad end."

And they did. The -------- died of a heart attack at 55 and the other owner murdered his wife in a fit of rage and after being released on $1M bond, went back to his gated house and blew his head off.

#29 | Posted by madscientist at 2021-05-07 11:39 PM | Reply

"Alison Krauss - I'll fly away"

That was the version from "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?" that I thought of too, Corky.

#30 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2021-05-08 12:20 AM | Reply

The rendition of all fly away from O Brother Where Art Thou is truly beautiful I actually put together a music video for it in my head.

The baptism scene in that film though... it should be impossible to make white Anglo-Saxon Protestant engaging worship look cool but my God the Coen brothers did a gorgeous job of it.

#31 | Posted by Tor at 2021-05-08 02:49 AM | Reply

Mad,

Intermixing secular goals with Christian values makes for a lot of conflicting ideas.

Building big churches with big budgets generates mixed messages.

Blending religion and politics to support one or the other distorts what I believe Christ was about.

I don't necessarily believe preachers should take a vow of poverty but living overly well is a contradiction.

That would include people who get overly rich selling gospel music.

Its no wonder people don't understand or have perverted ideas who Christians are.

Then again I'm not so sure myself considering there are so many opinions.

#32 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-05-08 09:28 AM | Reply

Tor,

I've been impressed with some black churches watching their services full of singing and praise.

If anyone had a reason to be discouraged and full of anger toward God it would be them.

Yet they sing.

And dance.

They get it.

They make a joyful noise unto the Lord.

#33 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-05-08 09:41 AM | Reply

Send in the clowns...

and the snake charmers, and the belly dancers and the tambourines.

Religion no longer has any connection with spirituality, so let's dance. Put on your red shoes...

#34 | Posted by kudzu at 2021-05-08 10:00 AM | Reply

The serious moonlight

#35 | Posted by bruceaz at 2021-05-08 10:19 AM | Reply

Ku,

Fame

#36 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-05-08 10:25 AM | Reply

Blending religion and politics to support one or the other distorts what I believe Christ was about.

So Christ was a-political? What about Abraham? Moses? King David?

Ask Zed, Dorky, Tor, and Bill: What is real Christianity? You'll get at least four different answers of varying lucidity. Christianity's greatest advantage over the more traditional religions is its pliability. It can be whatever you want it to be. You can be a Johnny Cash Christian. You can regale yourself with extravagant brims, stage lights and "joyful noise" (rofl), or you can restrict yourself to only those Psalms composed for a lyre. You can embark on your journey at five years old or at 95 and get the same result. Some of its ministers can have multiple wives (and the scripture to back it up). Some of the ministers are sinister virgins. Anything goes. As Tor points out, it is so easy even two Jewish atheists can replicate it for the big screen. No experience necessary.

IMNHO the only way to be a "not real christian" is to act like the pastor in this article and make the absurd claim that "real" christianity lies in some strict formula of worship and dogma.

#37 | Posted by BluSky at 2021-05-08 11:46 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#37 | POSTED BY BLUSKY

It's the human mind that's pliable, not Christ.

Anyone who sincerely believes that Christ is God and rose from the dead is a Christian.

This doesn't mean you can no longer do evil and bring these simple ideas into disrepute. Jesus had much to say on this topic.

#38 | Posted by Zed at 2021-05-08 12:52 PM | Reply

Blu,

"real Christianity"

Reread what I wrote.

I didn't say that. In fact what I said is considering there is so many opinions sometimes I'm not exactly sure.

Interestingly...if you would take the time to read what people say, it's the liberals on this site who talk the most about how "real Christians" should behave and what "real Christians" should do.

It's the liberal atheists on this site who apparently understand Christianity the best.

#39 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-05-08 02:19 PM | Reply

It's the liberal atheists on this site who apparently understand Christianity the best.
#39 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

It's hard to tell you're trapped in an abusive situation, until you escape from it.

#40 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-08 02:23 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"...so many opinions"

And what do they all agree on?

1. Love/Worship God
2. Treat others as yourself

The problems come from 1) someone wanting you to worship their God, not yours, and 2) a whole lot of Golden Rule violations.

That said, any "Christian" promoting someone who regularly lies, steals, cheats, and covets...well, that's not a Christian, that's a cultist.

#41 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-05-08 02:55 PM | Reply

"someone who regularly lies, steals, cheats, and covets..."

And treats folks in a way he most decidedly does NOT like to be treated. I forgot to add that little tidbit. My bad.

#42 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-05-08 03:00 PM | Reply

I simply cannot comprehend how anyone who claims to be a Christian can also support Trump.

Maybe a Christina Trump supporter could explain it to me?

#43 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-08 03:13 PM | Reply

Dan,

What you listed is a paraphrase of what Jesus said is the 2 greatest commandments.

I am quite sure Jesus didn't mean just any ole God.

Yahweh would be specifically who Jesus is referring.

#44 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-05-08 04:15 PM | Reply

"I am quite sure Jesus didn't mean just any ole God."

Yeah, that was #1 of the problems: Forcing you to worship MY God, not YOURS, to the point of war.

Kind of violates Rule #2, doesn't it?

#45 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-05-08 04:29 PM | Reply

Interestingly...if you would take the time to read what people say, it's the liberals on this site who talk the most about how "real Christians" should behave and what "real Christians" should do.
It's the liberal atheists on this site who apparently understand Christianity the best.
POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON AT 2021-05-08 02:19 PM | REPLY

You've become a JeffJ clone. PERIOD.

#46 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2021-05-08 04:34 PM | Reply

Yahweh would be specifically who Jesus is referring.
#44 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

And to that specific point,
I've yet to meet a Republican Christian who can acknowledge this is the same G-d of Islam.

#47 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-08 04:42 PM | Reply

Dan,

Matthew 10:34

"Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

#48 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-05-08 05:00 PM | Reply

Snoofy,

"I've yet to meet a Republican Christian who can acknowledge this is the same G-d of Islam."

Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me"

If you go by what Jesus said in the Bible, how can Christians and Muslims be worshipping the same God?

#49 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-05-08 05:09 PM | Reply

"Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me""

So are all the BC souls in hell?

#50 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-05-08 05:10 PM | Reply

If you go by what Jesus said in the Bible, how can Christians and Muslims be worshipping the same God?

POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON AT 2021-05-08 05:09 PM | REPLY

Because all 3 major religions are Abrahamic religions. They all share the patriarchy of Abraham.

#51 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2021-05-08 05:25 PM | Reply

- but a sword.

The sword Jesus brings is not here military conflict, but, as vv. 35"36 show, a sharp social division which even severs the closest family ties. ... Jesus speaks here, as in the preceding and following verses, more of a division in men's personal response to him.

en.wikipedia.org

#52 | Posted by Corky at 2021-05-08 05:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

- They all share the patriarchy of Abraham.

This is true... but some evangels argue that since they reject Christ, they do worship the same God. Which seems like semantics to me.

#53 | Posted by Corky at 2021-05-08 05:28 PM | Reply

do not worship

#54 | Posted by Corky at 2021-05-08 05:29 PM | Reply

If you go by what Jesus said in the Bible, how can Christians and Muslims be worshipping the same God?
#49 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

Try going off what Jesus said in the Koran.

#55 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-08 05:54 PM | Reply

"For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

Is that what Jesus brings to your life? Turning you against your family? Is that why you believe?

#56 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-08 05:57 PM | Reply

Laura,

Maybe the whole point is to confuse the issue.

Politicians play that all the time.

Rather than prove someone wrong or attack what someone believes, just confuse the issue. I don't need you to agree with me. Just doubt yourself.

Sometimes even agree with them to look like you're on their side but qualify it with conditions.

Just look what Republicans have done with Global Warming.

Yes...but..

#57 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-05-08 06:03 PM | Reply

Snoofy,

"Is that what Jesus brings to your life? Turning you against your family? Is that why you believe?"

It's not what Jesus set out to do.

It is, however, the inevitable outcome of sharing your faith with some people.

Matthew 5:14-16
Jesus said, "You are the light of the world" to His followers.

Light of the world....think about that. not "a light"...."the light".

If Jesus was quoted and translated correctly.

Is it any wonder brother will turn against brother?

"brother...you are living in darkness"

#58 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-05-08 06:12 PM | Reply

"Is it any wonder brother will turn against brother?"

The way you've turned against Muslims who believe in your G-d?

Knowing you, I'd expect no less.

#59 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-08 06:15 PM | Reply

Snoofy,

What do Muslims believe about Jesus?

Islam and Christianity are mutually exclusive.

They can not exist in the same world.

Why do you think they hate America?

#60 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-05-08 06:21 PM | Reply

Hey BillJohnson,
Are you trolling on your own time, or are you trolling In Jesus' Name right now?

#61 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-08 06:28 PM | Reply

Snoofy,

Don't get me wrong.

Christians and Muslims can most certainly agree to disagree.

That is the only way they can coexist.

However, Christianity and Islam are in conflict.

Never doubt that.

#62 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-05-08 06:28 PM | Reply

Snoofy,

I'm just answering your questions or responding to your comments.

You and Laura make comments and I've been working in the yard today and now I'm chilling.

#63 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-05-08 06:31 PM | Reply

"Christians and Muslims can most certainly agree to disagree."

Not about whose G-d you worship.

#64 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-08 06:36 PM | Reply

Snoofy,

And then there's the atheists.

Probably the fastest growing religion in America.

#65 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-05-08 06:36 PM | Reply

"Probably the fastest growing religion in America."

With you as a brand ambassador for Christianity, that shouldn't come as any surprise.

All you preach is hate.

#66 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-08 06:37 PM | Reply

Snoofy,

time to ignore you.

#67 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-05-08 06:42 PM | Reply

There's that hatred!

#68 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-08 06:48 PM | Reply

"If you go by what Jesus said in the Bible, how can Christians and Muslims be worshipping the same God?"
What specific things that Jesus said did you have in mind?

Christians and Muslims: Do They Worship the Same God?
www.elca.org

#69 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-08 07:00 PM | Reply

Threads like these make me miss J_TosseRigel.

#70 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-05-08 07:09 PM | Reply

Threads like these make me miss J_TosseRigel.

Threads like this make me glad I don't give a ---- about any of it.

#71 | Posted by REDIAL at 2021-05-08 07:17 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The God of Abraham

#72 | Posted by bruceaz at 2021-05-08 07:27 PM | Reply

Don't get me wrong.
Christians and Muslims can most certainly agree to disagree.
That is the only way they can coexist.
However, Christianity and Islam are in conflict.
Never doubt that.

POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON AT 2021-05-08 06:28 PM | REPLY

Your ignorance and arrogance is duly noted.

#73 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2021-05-08 08:54 PM | Reply

#71

Oh. I don't either.

But he'd be all over this thread

#74 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-05-08 09:56 PM | Reply

The putz from Pakistan would be ------- this topic relentlessly.

Come to think of it I'm going to have to post an article or two about Pakistan just to see if he shows up.

#75 | Posted by Tor at 2021-05-08 10:39 PM | Reply

Don't confuse traditional African-American churches style of worship with pop Christianity.

#76 | Posted by Tor at 2021-05-09 08:19 PM | Reply

Atheism isn't a religion, for Pf's sake.

#77 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2021-05-09 08:31 PM | Reply

"Christianity and Islam are in conflict. Never doubt that."

Which one allows you to kill the other if they don't worship the way YOU do?

#78 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-05-09 11:07 PM | Reply

Trick question: They BOTH do!

#79 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-05-10 12:41 PM | Reply

Comments are closed for this entry.

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