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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Sunday, May 09, 2021

Duffy asked a white male friend to sit in on her home appraisal and didn't declare her race in the application or other communications with the appraisal company -- and the appraisal came back at more than double the first two, valuing her home at more than $100,000 higher.

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American culture sucks. I find this incredibly easy to believe.

#1 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-05-09 09:50 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

And yet the people who continually conflate poverty with race can't see how they're contributing to this problem.

#2 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-05-09 10:05 AM | Reply

Something like two-thirds of black people are middle-class.

racism can be weird.

#3 | Posted by Tor at 2021-05-09 12:23 PM | Reply

2/3 seems high.
blackdemographics.com

#4 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-09 03:57 PM | Reply

"Depending on the class model used, the middle class constitutes anywhere from 25% to 66% of households." en.wikipedia.org

#5 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-09 03:58 PM | Reply

The appraisers who looked at her home now look like racists. Appraisers are trusted to evaluate the value of your home, from my experience they are a very unreliable source of information.

#6 | Posted by danni at 2021-05-09 09:34 PM | Reply

This is the very definition of systemic racism with the emphasis on the system being unfairly biased, not just any particular individual. The appraiser who first looked at this house may not have even been aware that their estimate was a lowball, but as noted the only physical difference in the look of the property was the removal of visible evidence that a black person/family lived there. I doubt the lowball appraiser simply acted upon their own personal bias with the first appraisal nor that the second one added some bonus for viewing the property as non-black.

But to my mind, there is no doubt that the appraisal system itself is inhibited with human biases that cost black homeowners billions of dollars as has been shown to be the case for decades in unrealized or stolen wealth from black families. As with anything, this doesn't mean that every real estate transaction should be immediately labeled as suspect, but this discrepancy is far wider than most realize and it does effect household wealth and legacies.

#7 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-09 10:36 PM | Reply

I am not saying it isn't all racial in this case, however home appraisers are all over the place. It's subjective. A white friend had his fully remodeled house appraised at half what the houses in his neighborhood were selling for at the time. This was about 2 years ago now.

#8 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2021-05-10 08:27 AM | Reply

What's "visible evidence that a black person lived there" ? Besides the person obviously.

#9 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-05-10 08:32 AM | Reply

What's "visible evidence that a black person lived there" ?

"I took down every photo of my family from my house. ... I took every piece of ethnic artwork out, so any African artwork -- I took it out. I displayed my degrees, I removed certain books."

Duffy asked a white male friend to sit in on her home appraisal and didn't declare her race in the application or other communications with the appraisal company -- and the appraisal came back at more than double the first two, valuing her home at more than $100,000 higher.

#10 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-10 08:49 AM | Reply

Did she replace the photos with white people or just have a white guy stand around? Doesn't matter. That's nuts.

Here you just check HCAD, Harris County Appraisal District's site for the property tax appraisal, and it will be in line with the homes around it regardless of the race of owner. They don't come in your house and you can't tell whom owns it from the outside. A drastic difference between the tax appraisal and pre-sale appraisal has to be heavily documented on every detail as to why.

#11 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-05-10 08:54 AM | Reply

Black Homeowners Face Discrimination in Appraisals

After the first appraisal came up short on his house in an affluent, racially mixed suburb of Hartford, Conn., Stephen Richmond, an aerospace engineer, took down family photos and posters for Black movies and had a white neighbor stand in for him on a second appraisal. He was hoping to refinance; with the second report, he saw his home's value go up $40,000 from the initial appraisal just a few weeks earlier.

In 2000, the American actor and comedian D.L. Hughley had an appraisal on his home in the Montevista Estates neighborhood of West Hills, a primarily white area in the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles. Despite a steady uptick in the housing market and the addition of a pool and new hardwood floors, the house was appraised for nearly what he had bought it for three years earlier - $500,000.

In Mr. Hughley's case, his bank flagged the report.

"They were like, this has to be some kind of mistake because in order for your house to have come in this low, it would have to be in some level of disrepair," Mr. Hughley said.

The bank ordered a new appraisal, which came back $160,000 higher, and Mr. Hughley went on to sell the home for $770,000.

In 2018, researchers from Gallup and the Brookings Institution published a report on the widespread devaluation of Black-owned property in the United States, which they discussed in a 2019 hearing before the House Financial Services Subcommittee. The report found that a home in a majority Black neighborhood is likely to be valued for 23 percent less than a near-identical home in a majority-white neighborhood; it also determined this devaluation costs Black homeowners $156 billion in cumulative losses.

#12 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-10 09:09 AM | Reply

American culture sucks. I find this incredibly easy to believe.

That's because you are a liberal. You want a world that looks like this..

I see the appraisal company as the problem. Change your world view and you will find things look alot better.

#13 | Posted by boaz at 2021-05-10 09:21 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Two variables that people may be overlooking in this anecdote:

"I took every piece of ethnic artwork out"

Ethnicity is not the same as race. How would ethnic artwork from Eastern Europe, Central Asia or South America compare in affecting a house appraisal?

"Duffy asked a white male friend to sit in on her home appraisal"

Could gender have a been a significant factor here, like when buying/selling used cars?

We need more data than just anecdotes reported in the media.

#14 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-05-10 10:12 AM | Reply

That's because you are a liberal. You want a world that looks like this..
I see the appraisal company as the problem. Change your world view and you will find things look alot better.

#13 | POSTED BY BOAZ

Translation: Make ---- up and ignore things you don't like and you'll feel better!

Still with that stupid ass librul garbage. There's also, of course, a significant issue with somebody with a toxic, ignorant worldview lecturing others on worldviews.

#15 | Posted by jpw at 2021-05-10 10:58 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

This issue here is the appraisal company knowingly devaluing a home below what it's really worth?

IOW, is the appraisal accurate?

There are 2 types of discrimination, legal and illegal.

But buyers aren't guilty of discrimination. If people simply don't value a home owned by a black person as much as a home owned by a white person....then there isn't anything the home owner can do about it.

Banks normally want appraisal companies to keep the lending business moving along. Not put the brakes on business due to lowering appraisals. That just kills deals.

Is it being suggested banks are directing this because they don't want to make those loans in the first place?

#16 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 11:06 AM | Reply

Houses in newer school districts are worth more than their counterparts in older school districts.

There are many location based factors that drive home value.

A home on the beach is worth more than one in Compton.....is that included in the $156 billion in losses?

#17 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 11:15 AM | Reply

"The report found that a home in a majority Black neighborhood is likely to be valued for 23 percent less than a near-identical home in a majority-white neighborhood; it also determined this devaluation costs Black homeowners $156 billion in cumulative losses."

Now multiply that by generations of tax-free passage of wealth.

#18 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-05-10 11:31 AM | Reply

Now multiply that by generations of tax-free passage of wealth.

#18 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2021-05-10 11:31 AM | FLAG:

As somebody from a state with the 5th highest property taxes in the nation, I am now identifying as an African America to get that 23% value reduction. I'll start identifying as as a white man when it comes time to appraise before a sale. All you have to do is change the pictures on the wall? ----------- I'm in.

#19 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-05-10 12:53 PM | Reply

What's "visible evidence that a black person lived there" ? Besides the person obviously.
#9 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

This question is hilarious.

#20 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-10 01:06 PM | Reply

I see the appraisal company as the problem.
#13 | POSTED BY BOAZ

So tell us how black people can fix this problem that is affecting the black community, without any help from Whitey.

#21 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-10 01:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I see the appraisal company as the problem.

Why? What did they do wrong?

#22 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-05-10 01:23 PM | Reply

This question is hilarious.

#20 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2021-05-10 01:06 PM | FLAG:

Walk around my cul-de-sac and without seeing the people inside, tell me the ethnicity of the occupants.

The county doesn't come inside here.

#23 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-05-10 01:25 PM | Reply

Just more proof there is no systemic racism.

#24 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-05-10 01:25 PM | Reply

If people simply don't value a home owned by a black person as much as a home owned by a white person....then there isn't anything the home owner can do about it.

But she did.

By removing her being black as a factor.

The real question is.

Why are people willing to pay more if they believe a white person owned the property?

What stigma is associated with black homeowners?

#25 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-05-10 01:27 PM | Reply

Change your world view and you will find things look alot better.

#13 | Posted by boaz at 2021-05-10 09:21 AM | Reply | Flag:

AKA ignore the problem and it will go away.

#26 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-05-10 01:28 PM | Reply

What stigma is associated with black homeowners?

#25 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-05-10 01:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

That they are black.

#27 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-05-10 01:29 PM | Reply

Also folks...if it more than doubled, and went up over $100,000, that means the opening appraisal was in the neighborhood of $95K, and the second around 196K. That's a world of difference.

#28 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-05-10 01:30 PM | Reply

"Walk around my cul-de-sac and without seeing the people inside, tell me the ethnicity of the occupants."

Sitzkrieg,
The appraiser -- get this -- actually entered the house!

#29 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-10 01:34 PM | Reply

What stigma is associated with black homeowners?

I don't know.

And the appraisal company could be the problem if they are valuing homes incorrectly, especially if they are doing it intentionally.

And then the banks would be responsible as well because that's who would direct them to do that.....because they don't want to make the loans.

I'm not making that accusation. But I imagine real estate appraisal companies have professional liability insurance. Which means this woman could sue for damages if she truly incurred a loss as a result of the appraisal (assuming it's incorrect)

#30 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 01:34 PM | Reply

"And the appraisal company could be the problem if they are valuing homes incorrectly, especially if they are doing it intentionally."

Incorrectly? Sounds to me like the appraisal company is merely pricing in the fact that "people simply don't value a home owned by a black person as much as a home owned by a white person."

#31 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-10 01:37 PM | Reply

I've bought and sold homes many times in my life. I place zero value in those appraisal companies.

Most of the time their job is to just check the boxes and stay out of the way of the transaction.

They have a home being bought....there is a sales contract and it's handed to the appraiser. He can simply take the sales price, and work backwards from there to justify a value that makes the bank, the realtors, and the buyer/seller happy. Then charges a nice fee for it.

But added zero to the equation.

They're actually worth less than insurance agents.......

#32 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 01:37 PM | Reply

Sitzkrieg,
The appraiser -- get this -- actually entered the house!
#29 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2021-05-10 01:34 PM | FLAG:

Ridiculous isn't it? For tax purposes, glancing at the outside is apparently just fine and all interiors are created equal.

I'm about to go out the door and load up on Prairie View A&M yard decorations. 23%!

#33 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-05-10 01:38 PM | Reply

"Ridiculous isn't it? For tax purposes, glancing at the outside is apparently just fine and all interiors are created equal."

For tax purposes, it's a regressive tax.

NYC property taxes favor rich and white homeowners, lawsuit claims
www.nydailynews.com

Property taxes are twice as high in poor neighborhoods
www.washingtonpost.com

#34 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-10 01:45 PM | Reply

Living in the city isn't cheap, that's why you get all those sweet public services.

#35 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-05-10 02:06 PM | Reply

Not put the brakes on business due to lowering appraisals. That just kills deals.

Doesn't the lower appraisal represent less risk for the bank?

Why would they care, then, whether the appraisals are inaccurate in certain cases?

#36 | Posted by jpw at 2021-05-10 02:10 PM | Reply

And yes, I know lower loan values means less interest payments.

#37 | Posted by jpw at 2021-05-10 02:14 PM | Reply

36

the borrower has only so much down payment. If the appraisal is higher...then they start with more equity. If it's lower then less equity...and less equity means more risk for the lender.

Which is why PMI is usually required and even why many loans are not approved because the home ends up appraising for less than the purchase price. Essentially a negative equity situation for the borrower unless they come up with more cash.

#38 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 02:31 PM | Reply

"As somebody from a state with the 5th highest property taxes in the nation, I am now identifying as an African America to get that 23% value reduction. "

And according to Republican Math, you'll come out ahead! Just like the locally-funded schools struggling with accreditation!!!

#39 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-05-10 04:43 PM | Reply

"Property taxes are twice as high in poor neighborhoods"

I see it all the time: homes that sell for half the amount a home in a "nicer" county would sell for, pay the same property taxes.

#40 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-05-10 04:46 PM | Reply

"What stigma is associated with black homeowners?"

Oh please.

They live in black neighborhoods.

Well that, and the entire history of redlining, and how the exacerbation compounds over generations.

#41 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-05-10 04:49 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Living in the city isn't cheap, that's why you get all those sweet public services.

#35 | Posted by sitzkrieg

What public services do city dwellers need that you dirtkickers don't?

Parking meter maids?

Science teachers?

#42 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-05-10 05:43 PM | Reply

Not sure I understand some arguments here.

Complaining that black people don't pay more for a house in a black neighborhood?

Is that what you want? For blacks to pay MORE for the same house they can get for 23% less?

#43 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 05:55 PM | Reply

-that's why you get all those sweet public services.

Yeah...like the sound of sirens, gunshots, kids driving by with their stereos, etc. crammed all together like pigs.

Nice......

And I'm still waiting for ------------------- to man up and accept my challenge.

#44 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 05:58 PM | Reply

"In 2018, researchers from Gallup and the Brookings Institution published a report on the widespread devaluation of Black-owned property in the United States"

This one?
www.brookings.edu

In our preferred estimate, it is calculated by observing the relationship between median neighborhood home prices per square foot (from Zillow) and Black population shares across the full range of neighborhoods within individual metropolitan areas that have at least one majority Black neighborhood and at least one neighborhood with less than 1% Black population shares. In most, though not all, metropolitan areas with at least one neighborhood of each type, the percent difference is negative. Structural characteristics of homes and neighborhood amenities do not fully explain the absolute difference in home value.

Zillow estimates are based mainly on tax assessment values, aren't they?

Also, the last sentence acknowledges that other factors such as neighborhood environment do play a role in the difference in home values, but it's vague on how much short of 'fully' explaining it came up short.

#45 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-05-10 06:29 PM | Reply

-that's why you get all those sweet public services.

Yeah...like the sound of sirens, gunshots, kids driving by with their stereos, etc. crammed all together like pigs.

Nice......

And I'm still waiting for ------------------- to man up and accept my challenge.

#44 | Posted by eberly

No surprise that you don't know what a public service is moron.

Calling it "a challenge" makes you sound tough. Calling it "a pathetic obsession" is more accurate.

#46 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-05-10 06:33 PM | Reply

Complaining that black people don't pay more for a house in a black neighborhood?

Is that what you want? For blacks to pay MORE for the same house they can get for 23% less?

Ebs, I think that you're subconsciously placing metrics upon this subject that don't exist. I live in Indianapolis, I think that you know this. Within a radius of about 5 miles, I'm pretty sure that I know where this lady's house is. You seem to be of the mindset that the "black neighborhoods" in question are somehow inferior to comparable white neighborhoods and that is not the case. If it were so, the homes would not be comparable. No one is talking about similar physical homes that exist in two completely different environments - the point is that the only intangible difference in comparable homes is the dominant racial make up of the neighborhood, not it's quality of life.

Indianapolis had an early, almost all black suburb that was built in the late 50s and early 60s where many professionals and well paid blue collar families moved in. The schools and the neighborhood were more than comparable with nearby white suburban neighborhoods and it fed into one of the top academic high schools in the city. Though there was no formal discriminatory policy, there was still redlining and it was harder for blacks to secure mortgages than it was for whites with similar finances. My father was a residential home builder, so these observations are what he told me directly. He himself often had to co-sign on notes for black people that he was building homes for, and my father only built brick/stone homes, never clapboard or siding. His homes still look fantastic today some 60-70 years later. The home I grew up in had a marvelous slate-tile roof. He was a true artisan, but he ended up going back to college in 1964 and getting his masters degree in industrial education and finished his working career as a high school teacher of building trades. At some schools the students actually built entire single family homes which were sold for profit when they were finished.

My point is that these comparisons are not based on non-comparable neighborhoods. The lady in the story I believe lives in a "predominately" black neighborhood that is rapidly gentrifying as both new homes and remodels of the huge 30s-40s style homes that remain are prevalent. More and more white and black professionals are moving into these neighborhoods and more and more shops and restaurants continue to open almost on a weekly basis. There is simply an unconscious bias where "black-owned" homes aren't valued as highly as those that aren't. Though the pricing might be lower, the second these properties are purchased by a non-black person their values increase - as these reappraisals show - and this wealth is taken from black families and realized by those who aren't black. This is the problem and it isn't new, it's older than you and I combined.

Your argument is literally - "Hey what's wrong if I can buy stock for 23% less?" Well, the answer is that on the flipside when you want to sell your stock it too will bring substantially less simply because you're the owner and the system is biased against you. And once you sell that stock, the new owner immediately realizes at least a 23% bonus that should have been yours. Now can you see what's wrong in these equations?

#47 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-10 06:34 PM | Reply

"Calling it "a pathetic obsession" is more accurate."

You mean like this....

"Your cult"
"Your cult"
"Your cult"
"Your cult"

from thread to thread to thread...no matter the subject being discussed

Now THAT is a pathetic obsession.

#48 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 06:36 PM | Reply

-Your argument is literally - "Hey what's wrong if I can buy stock for 23% less?"

It's not my argument. It was simply a question to those who, IMO, don't understand the complexity of the problem when you explain well in #47.

I don't disagree with you. I'm not arguing anything.

But as you said, the problem isn't new....and it's not changing.

#49 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 06:40 PM | Reply

This one?

Yeah, the same one which you intentionally left off the VERY FIRST SENTENCE:

Devaluation is defined as the percent discount in median home values between neighborhoods with 50% Black population and neighborhoods with no Black residents, after accounting for structural characteristics of homes and neighborhood amenities.

This report seeks to understand how much money majority-Black communities are losing in the housing market stemming from racial bias, finding that owner-occupied homes in Black neighborhoods are undervalued by $48,000 per home on average, amounting to $156 billion in cumulative losses.

#50 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-10 06:41 PM | Reply

"don't know what a public service is"

I know you certainly know what they are......as you've likely spent your entire life on the receiving end of them in order to survive.

And then show up here bragging about your superiority.

What's your net worth?

Value of your home?

How great are your kids doing?

any bankruptcies, credit problems, divorce, etc??

#51 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 06:43 PM | Reply

#50, but it was based on Zillow?

#52 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-05-10 06:46 PM | Reply

But as you said, the problem isn't new....and it's not changing.

Oh but I disagree. I know that things are changing and light is the strongest disinfectant. Looks like a perfect entrepreneurial opportunity to me:

Yo' bro, time to go? Are you selling your black-owned home? Hit me up and let me WHITIFY your house before you get your appraisal! "WHITE LIKE ME" will truly set you free!
;^)

#53 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-10 06:47 PM | Reply

"owner-occupied homes in Black neighborhoods are undervalued by $48,000 per home on average"

meaning that if I(white guy) goes into that neighborhood, buy the house at the discount, I (white guy) can turn around and sell it to someone for $48K more?

#54 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 06:48 PM | Reply

#54

You can if you get an appraisal supporting the price. Practically Ebs, what it means is that if other whites continue to move in and the area becomes more multi-racial, it's almost certain that you'll realize a rapid appreciation of your property likely higher as a percentage than in other neighborhoods, or at minimum commiserate to other non majority black neighborhoods.

#55 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-10 06:55 PM | Reply

Isn't it common practice for sellers to be told to remove all family photos, religious and cultural symbolism from their homes before appraising or showing the home? I was just looking on an appraisals forum, and some were saying they're not supposed to have people or pictures of people in the photos they take of the house, although some are more lax about that requirement than others.

#56 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-05-10 06:59 PM | Reply

"Calling it "a pathetic obsession" is more accurate."

You mean like this....

"Your cult"
"Your cult"
"Your cult"
"Your cult"

from thread to thread to thread...no matter the subject being discussed

Now THAT is a pathetic obsession.

#48 | Posted by eberly

Both are true.

You have a pathetic obsession with uncovering my personal life
AND
Trump's supporters are in a cult

Both are also entirely unrelated to the topic of this thread. Goatman got banned because he derailed every thread into a debate about him. How long do you think you can last without a ban if you derail every thread with demands that I reveal my personal identity to you?

#57 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-05-10 07:01 PM | Reply

I know you certainly know what they are......as you've likely spent your entire life on the receiving end of them in order to survive.

#51 | Posted by eberly

Totally. Just like you've likely spent your entire life in the basement hiding your kiddie porn on thumb drives.

Isn't this fun?

#58 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-05-10 07:04 PM | Reply

You're stupid enough to bring up goatman? You and Snoopy are the evil red headed step sisters of goatman.

You're a filthy ---- who thinks he's better than everybody else here.

And I'm willing to bet that as long as you can troll people from thread to thread in the manner in which I've called you out for, I'm going to be able to get away with demanding personal information from you.

So my guess is that if I get tossed, you'll get tossed with me.

Shall we continue?

How successful were your parents? What level of education did they have? Did you even know them?

Ivy League?

#59 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 07:07 PM | Reply

I was just looking on an appraisals forum, and some were saying they're not supposed to have people or pictures of people in the photos they take of the house, although some are more lax about that requirement than others.

There should be nothing that can be used to identify individuals in photos that would violate privacy laws used to sell/display the house, but I've never heard of scrubbing personal items for the sake of an appraisal. I could see doing so if the home were being sold as furnished, but that is a small percentage I would think.

#60 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-10 07:07 PM | Reply

-Isn't it common practice for sellers to be told to remove all family photos, religious and cultural symbolism from their homes before appraising or showing the home?

I imagine Muslims, Jews, etc. might be told to do that but I've never been advised as such

#61 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 07:11 PM | Reply

Keep in mind everybody that appraisals don't sell homes. Most appraisals don't occur until after the sales already been agreed-upon.

The real problem is that people cannot sell their houses for the price they should be able to because the buyers won't pay it, not because of the appraiser

#62 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 07:12 PM | Reply

-Isn't this fun?

Oh, it is for me.

And I'm not going to stop.

#63 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 07:13 PM | Reply

You're stupid enough to bring up goatman? You and Snoopy are the evil red headed step sisters of goatman.

You're a filthy ---- who thinks he's better than everybody else here.

And I'm willing to bet that as long as you can troll people from thread to thread in the manner in which I've called you out for, I'm going to be able to get away with demanding personal information from you.

So my guess is that if I get tossed, you'll get tossed with me.

Shall we continue?

How successful were your parents? What level of education did they have? Did you even know them?

Ivy League?

#59 | Posted by eberly

We'll see. You're the one derailing the thread and making a spectacle of yourself, not me. So I guess I am better than you. Thing is I don't care. I get much more enjoyment imagining your notepad of clues and printed out comments that you memorize to try and figure out who I am than I ever would from actually answering your questions so you can just say I'm lying.

#64 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-05-10 07:15 PM | Reply

-Thing is I don't care.

You really are a lying POS.

You care greatly. You take yourself way too seriously.

Absolutely never engage in meaningful debate. Instead, you just chase people around and vomit "your cult". Over and over.

Thread to thread.

And if that behavior is tolerated here, how can mine not be tolerated?

Now,do you surf? Golf? What's your handicap? What course do you belong to?

#65 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 07:21 PM | Reply

Here's the thread I was looking at:

appraisersforum.com

It's from about ten years ago, and was started by an appraisal review that was rejected because there were family photos and crosses hanging on the wall.

#66 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-05-10 07:22 PM | Reply

You keep harassing posters way you have been I'm gonna keep kicking sand in your face like a skinny little runt you are.

So, your girlfriend, is she "talented"?

#67 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 07:23 PM | Reply

Our home has gone up $100,000 in just a few months. Why? Because people are moving here in droves.

#68 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2021-05-10 07:47 PM | Reply

Now,do you surf? Golf? What's your handicap? What course do you belong to?

#65 | Posted by eberly

Actually my favorite hobby is publicly dissecting the arguments of morons who say both parties are the problem til they get so desperate that their only hope is to switch the topic to my personal life.

#69 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-05-10 07:59 PM | Reply

-my personal life.

It gets me off.

#70 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-10 08:45 PM | Reply

Sounds like an alibi.

#71 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-05-10 09:24 PM | Reply

"Isn't it common practice for sellers to be told to remove all family photos, religious and cultural symbolism from their homes before appraising or showing the home?"

When they are black, apparently so!

"Duffy learned of a recentNew York Timesarticleon racist discrimination in the appraisal process, and she decided to apply some of the lessons she read about."

"I decided to do exactly what was done in the article," Duffy said. "I took down every photo of my family from my house. ... I took every piece of ethnic artwork out, so any African artwork -- I took it out. I displayed my degrees, I removed certain books."

#72 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-11 02:02 AM | Reply

So tell us how black people can fix this problem that is affecting the black community, without any help from Whitey.

#21 | Posted by snoofy

You are a white man, so why do you need to know?

#73 | Posted by boaz at 2021-05-11 06:43 AM | Reply

You seem to be of the mindset that the "black neighborhoods" in question are somehow inferior to comparable white neighborhoods and that is not the case.

In alot of the cases, there is..

On mother's day, I took the family to see Mrs. Boaz's mother. Several others in Mrs. Boaz's family came out. Her mother and father live in what can only be described as the ghetto of High Point NC. Although her mother and father have owned their home for 40 years, the houses next door have always been rented. In this one particular house next door, it has always been rented. And there has always been problems there. I almost bought the house next door once when it went on sale for $5000 just to keep people away from her parents next door.

So yesterday, several extended family members were outside taking pictures in Mrs. Boaz's parents front yard. Kids, women, babies sitting in the grass. Well, the "neighbors" next door get in their car, park it right next to the house, start blasting mumble rap music from an old car with oversized chrome rims and smoking weed. The smell of stagnant weed smoke filled the air, the music was loud and we had to go inside, after having to walk past the barking pit bulls on chains in the driveway in between the two houses.

I live in a white neighborhood with houses sub 750K +. I have never encountered anything like this.

The "white man" cant help us(blacks) with this. It's a cultural issue. This is why majority black owned neighborhoods have less prices than other comparable neighborhoods. How people view the race means something. None of you will rate this post as significant. You cant. You are a white liberal and it goes against your goals for the black race. Fix this perception and the very real evidence, and you fix the perception of blacks and racism. Again, whitety cant fix this, only blacks can.

#74 | Posted by boaz at 2021-05-11 06:52 AM | Reply

Jeez speaks, public services rural doesn't have but city does? International airports, public transit, buried utilities, public pools, etc, etc.

City living will never be cheaper. Want low property taxes go live in the sticks and burn your trash and get well water.

#75 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-05-11 07:51 AM | Reply

In alot of the cases, there is..

They shouldn't be or then they wouldn't be "comparable" would they?

Believe it or not Boaz, what you describe can be found in "some" white neighborhoods where rental properties are mixed in with occupier-owned homes. The stereotype of cars jacked up on blocks is a vestige of poor white Americana, usually in the South. Poorer people don't live like the more affluent regardless of race. You describe a ghetto and then declare that you don't see the same things in your upscale neighborhood. Of course you don't, that's the point - the neighborhoods aren't comparable. And this research isn't comparing apples to kumquats either.

But be forewarned. If/when you and Mrs. Boaz decide to sell your home and move on to perhaps your retirement dreams, remember this story and make sure that your home is fairly valued in comparison to your neighbors. D.L. Hughley's bank had to step-in on his behalf because an appraiser undervalued his home in a lilly white wealthy neighborhood by 65%. It can happen to you too.

#76 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-11 08:08 AM | Reply

I place zero value in those appraisal companies.

If you are a seller in a hot market, the appraisal company can be your best friend or your worst enemy. If the buyer has to secure a mortgage to purchase the property, the mortgage company wants to know that the property will appraise at that value. If it doesn't, the mortgage will not be granted.

In certain NJ markets, buyers making offers well above the asking price. Sellers are word smiting contracts to stipulate that if the property appraises at a value that is lower than the sell price, the contract is still binding.

#77 | Posted by FedUpWithPols at 2021-05-11 08:12 AM | Reply

Believe it or not Boaz, what you describe can be found in "some" white neighborhoods where rental properties are mixed in with occupier-owned homes.

Which is why there are Homeowners associations banning renting. You cant rent in my neighborhood. My sister just bought a house in Charlotte, one of the hottest markets in the nation. The association tried to come in after the fact and tell my sister she couldnt rent the house out, but since it isnt in the association, it's not binding. It's now in contracts moving forward.

You describe a ghetto and then declare that you don't see the same things in your upscale neighborhood.

So basically what you are saying is, I shouldnt expect lower income blacks to act like they have good sense and civility?

And yes, that is what you just said.

#78 | Posted by boaz at 2021-05-11 08:57 AM | Reply

#76,

You just described and made my point for me.

People dont want to live in the "ghetto" because of the stereotypes, and the evidence of the stereotype.

If people acted different, it wouldnt be that way. It's cultural.

And you said I should expect it around lower class blacks...

I say we as blacks can change that by acting differently.

#79 | Posted by boaz at 2021-05-11 08:59 AM | Reply

BOAZ

Unless you're being a Big Brother to some of the kids in the ghetto, you're just flapping your lips.

#80 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2021-05-11 09:07 AM | Reply

So basically what you are saying is, I shouldnt expect lower income blacks to act like they have good sense and civility?

And yes, that is what you just said.

I said nothing of the sort. My comments have been solely focused upon comparable housing values, not the lifestyles of those living in such houses.

The topic isn't "ghetto" homes being compared to upscale white neighborhoods. It's comparable homes - meaning that the homes are equal but for the racial composition of the neighborhood and/or owners. The metrics of these comparisons "accounting for structural characteristics of homes and neighborhood amenities."

The research is not comparing homes in downtrodden black neighborhoods to homes in upscale white neighborhoods. The homes are comparable for their physical characteristics as well as neighborhood amenities - meaning again apples to apples analysis but for race.

#81 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-11 09:15 AM | Reply

Unless you're being a Big Brother to some of the kids in the ghetto, you're just flapping your lips.

Nope, you dont get to make that. And you dont know what I'm doing. I can say my opinion, which in this case, is fact. Sorry dude, you cant shut me up from the truth, which I notice, you dont touch.

And if you arent black AU, you are just flapping your lips as well.

#82 | Posted by boaz at 2021-05-11 09:19 AM | Reply

#81,

Tony, I'm of the opinion that this is a problem with that particular rating agency, not the state of racism.

#83 | Posted by boaz at 2021-05-11 09:20 AM | Reply

And Tony,

I can see how my comment had no connection to the thread. I just want to make sure inferences to racism as large are not made.

#84 | Posted by boaz at 2021-05-11 09:28 AM | Reply

Tony, I'm of the opinion that this is a problem with that particular rating agency, not the state of racism.

Err, no. But first, let me preface that there are two separate-but-related issues at play here - 1) Overall devaluation of black owned homes; and 2) Systemic bias in home appraisals that lowball houses visually identified as black-owned, often regardless of the neighborhood's racial composition.

Majority-Black neighborhoods hold $609 billion in owner-occupied housing assets and are home to approximately 10,000 public schools and over 3 million businesses. We find that in the average U.S. metropolitan area, homes in neighborhoods where the share of the population is 50 percent Black are valued at roughly half the price as homes in neighborhoods with no Black residents.

According to our analysis, differences in home and neighborhood quality do not fully explain the devaluation of homes in Black neighborhoods. Homes of similar quality in neighborhoods with similar amenities are worth 23 percent less ($48,000 per home on average, amounting to $156 billion in cumulative losses) in majority Black neighborhoods, compared to those with very few or no Black residents.

www.brookings.edu

#85 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-11 09:32 AM | Reply

-The research is not comparing homes in downtrodden black neighborhoods to homes in upscale white neighborhoods.

Which is what makes this an interesting issue. That buyers are turned off by a black owned home even if it's in a nice neighborhood. No other factors other than the home is owned by a black person.

Which suggests (proves) a prejudice still exists.....

#86 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-11 09:34 AM | Reply

I can see how my comment had no connection to the thread.

No problem Boaz. But in turn I hope that you can see that systemic racism isn't just based on a few individual's personal biases. That's prejudice. Using your words about "a particular rating agency", it isn't just one agency, it's many agencies all over the nation - as the report shows. It's not happenstance that the same metrics of undervaluing black homes is just a disconnected anomaly, it's a subjective bias that evidently is built into the process regardless of what urban areas we're talking about.

I believe it's an example of life experience manifesting itself in hard dollars and presumed common sense. Believe me, I understand where you're coming from when you describe visible differences in neighborhoods based on how those living there either respect or disrespect their property and neighbors. I think that these same stereotypes have become unconsciously baked into what are supposed to be quasi-objective appraisals. I think that in cases of wildly disparate appraisals of the same properties that the lowball appraiser actually thinks that because a black family occupies a home it's value is less because blacks are supposed to be less diligent in property upkeep even if they can't quantify examples during a brief overview.

But by definition, this is systemic racism because the only variable of difference is the race of the owners themselves as this research and anecdotal stories show. The appraisers may not even be aware of their own bias and likely can cite tangible reasons for their lowball valuations, but when this is multiplied across the country and denies black families of billions of dollars in wealth, it has to be addressed as what it is - abominable.

#87 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-11 09:45 AM | Reply

The appraisers may not even be aware of their own bias and likely can cite tangible reasons for their lowball valuations, but when this is multiplied across the country and denies black families of billions of dollars in wealth, it has to be addressed as what it is - abominable.

I dont know Tony. I cant explain how I'm feeling now or what I need to say.

I can only say that it's just the performance of blacks and how we are viewed in the public eye. I cant expect for someone else to see blacks behaving badly or fulfilling a stereotype to just ignore what is happening in front of their eyes.

I also cant excuse somethings because other races arent doing those things and blacks are doing them. Blacks can stop doing those things. But often times we get accused of "acting white" or get called Uncle Tom or whatever.

The only thing that's going to change "racism", is other races viewing blacks differently and blacks changing their attitudes and behaviors. Period.

I dont know what else to tell you, Tony.

#88 | Posted by boaz at 2021-05-11 09:58 AM | Reply

#88

I don't find much to disagree with there Boaz.

But the reason you're having trouble finding words is that what we're talking about here is the disparate valuation of PROPERTY, not how any race acts or presents themselves. The only variable here is the race of the owners - with the property being as equal as possible.

This is systemic racism, where bias is built into the system, and it has nothing to do with judging the individuals being affected by it.

No one is being told to go out and cheat black families, yet that is what's happening based on research and statistics, and there is nothing - but for identifying and fighting unjust valuations - blacks can do to change how others appraise their properties.

Personally, I just want you to understand that when I speak of systemic racism it isn't usually directed toward the prejudice of individuals as much as I use the term to define biases built into our systems and structures that advantage some and disadvantage others as matters of their usual practices.

To me, the only answer is to identify and illuminate examples such as these and then work together in making sure these biases are removed moving forward so that everyone's property is judged fairly and equally, especially because so much wealth is at stake.

#89 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-11 10:13 AM | Reply

"work together in making sure these biases are removed moving forward"

by hiding pictures and any other evidence pointing to the race/ethnicity of the owner?

Other than that, what do you suggest?

#90 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-11 10:23 AM | Reply

Any argument that this isn't discrimination and racism is specious and stupid. It says right in the article they didn't use comps from the area disputing the home, but from home more than a mile away. That's no accident.

#91 | Posted by ABH at 2021-05-11 10:26 AM | Reply

Other than that, what do you suggest?

This. Bringing the issue out into the open and identifying it on a conscious level. Lenders are being hurt by this too and in many ways this may have another long term downside - undervaluation might keep homeowners from upgrades and upkeep that otherwise would happen.

If all those in the mortgage lending chain are aware of this problem then we're partways to a solution.

But your option may be the most viable in the short term until the industry creates better standards - de-ethnicizing one's home and asking a white friend to stand in when the appraiser shows up.

I'm telling you "Rent-a-Whitee" is a business poised to take off.

#92 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-11 10:30 AM | Reply

This is systemic racism, where bias is built into the system, and it has nothing to do with judging the individuals being affected by it.

Isnt it also racism, to judge a house owned by a white person as better? Do you want to get rid of that as well?

And now that I do think about it, it sucks to lower a housing value just because a black person is living there. That shouldnt be with an appraiser.

Choosing what neighborhood to live it is a different topic.

#93 | Posted by boaz at 2021-05-11 10:32 AM | Reply

For some reason, Tony, I dont think it's "baked in". I think it's this one appraiser. Not saying there arent others, but I dont think this is widespread. I would caution on a generalization in this case.

But that's just me..

#94 | Posted by boaz at 2021-05-11 10:33 AM | Reply

-I'm telling you "Rent-a-Whitee" is a business poised to take off.

I agree.

#95 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-11 10:36 AM | Reply

One is s a lone Wolf racist jerk appraiser. Two is signs of a systemic racist problem. There are not one but TWO racistly low appraisals before the right one came back.

#96 | Posted by ABH at 2021-05-11 10:39 AM | Reply

One is s a lone Wolf racist jerk appraiser. Two is signs of a systemic racist problem.

I dont agree. You are trying to insinuate that "everybody's" doing it.

I dont believe that and it's not true.

#97 | Posted by boaz at 2021-05-11 10:45 AM | Reply

This is another disgraceful situation that, by being white, I'd've never thought of happening to a black family.

I'm sick of this ---- happening to black people.

#98 | Posted by madscientist at 2021-05-11 10:45 AM | Reply

Isnt it also racism, to judge a house owned by a white person as better? Do you want to get rid of that as well?

To me Boaz, the appraisal given to a white homeowner is simply "just" or what it should be, where the black owner receives a lowball or "unjust" valuation simply due to a perception of bias - conscious or unconscious - on behalf of the appraiser.

In my words, the first appraisal is an example of "advantage" - the white owner doesn't even have to think twice about receiving fair value for his property. But the black homeowner is at a proven "disadvantage" - having to be stage their home race-neutrally and having a white person greet the appraiser. These things took time and effort that white homeowners do not have to undertake.

I use the word "racism" to describe individually undeserved disadvantages, not advantages.

#99 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-11 10:51 AM | Reply

I'm an insulated whitey so this is just me thinking out loud....but is this all due to the notion that when a white couple, who've almost exclusively lived around other white people, are being shown the home and they notice it's owned by a black family, they tend to assume there must be other black people in the neighborhood and they're suddenly uncomfortable with this home due to the location?

They're moving into a city so they're more sensitive to what they don't know and they're looking at 7 other homes....so this particular home gets scratched off the list.

I remember moving my family once 800 miles away from home to a city I'd never been to. When my wife and I flew in to look at houses....we saw 12 houses in 2-3 days..and made an offer on 1 at the end of the trip. In that process, if anything had caused me to pause and be concerned about the neighborhood....that home was scratched off the list pretty fast. We had a lot of homes to consider and a lot to process in a short amount of time. We spent half our time touring schools and decided on that FIRST before we started narrowing down houses.

And how do you address the issue when looking at the home? It's taboo to just blurt it out..."so, Mr. Realtor...I notice a black family owns this house.....how many more of them are in this neighborhood?"

People who might be racist but don't believe they are.....they aren't going to ask that question. They'll just move on......

#100 | Posted by eberly at 2021-05-11 10:54 AM | Reply

In my words, the first appraisal is an example of "advantage" - the white owner doesn't even have to think twice about receiving fair value for his property. But the black homeowner is at a proven "disadvantage"

And WHY does the white guy enjoy that advantage?

#101 | Posted by boaz at 2021-05-11 11:00 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#100

Very good observations Ebs. Conversely though, in today's shrinking world there are many white (and non-white) families seeking to find homes in quality diverse neighborhoods as well, seeking the opposite of Stepford neighborhoods.

But historically, your point is dead on.

#102 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-11 11:02 AM | Reply

It's taboo to just blurt it out..."so, Mr. Realtor...I notice a black family owns this house.....how many more of them are in this neighborhood?"

I dont think that's an issue anymore. I dont think people have a problem living next to blacks anymore, unless they are just hardcore racists, of which I'll say are few and far between anymore. I think people of all races have a problem with living next to ghetto blacks..

#103 | Posted by boaz at 2021-05-11 11:02 AM | Reply

#97. So to what do you attribute the first two pulling comps from so far away and the accurate appraisal doing it from homes in her actual neighborhood? "Oopsie?"

#104 | Posted by ABH at 2021-05-11 11:10 AM | Reply

And WHY does the white guy enjoy that advantage?

The system (set up by white people) gives it to him as a matter of being white. But don't misunderstand, his advantage exists only as it pertains to the black person's disadvantage. Between whites themselves, it's simply normal.

Boaz, I've agreed with you that the real world differences in perceptions/realities of lifestyle between races can and does lead to certain biases. That still doesn't make it right unless each individual is judged fairly on their own divorced from the failings of others that they do not share themselves.

Ebs makes very good points above. It's also historically known that realtors for decades have steered customers towards different neighborhoods based on race when actually financial abilities were the same. And since the appreciation of property has been the largest repository of household wealth which is passed on generationally, an outsized portion of this disparity between black and white household wealth is quite obviously tied up in these dynamics.

#105 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-11 11:11 AM | Reply

#105,

The system (set up by white people) gives it to him as a matter of being white.

That may have used to be the case, not so sure today. Alot of the problems of the black race are self inflicted.

It's also historically known that realtors for decades have steered customers towards different neighborhoods based on race when actually financial abilities were the same.

Agreed. But I think that's less and less in today's society.

And since the appreciation of property has been the largest repository of household wealth which is passed on generationally, an outsized portion of this disparity between black and white household wealth is quite obviously tied up in these dynamics.

Agreed.

#106 | Posted by boaz at 2021-05-11 11:16 AM | Reply

That may have used to be the case, not so sure today. Alot of the problems of the black race are self inflicted.

I'm truly enjoying our conversation today, but don't forget that this systemic racism is about neutral property, it has zero to do with "self-inflicting" anything. Base upon documented property evaluations, the system does not treat blacks and whites equally in an area where it should.

We're speaking about equal properties whose only difference is that one is owned by a white person and the other is owned by a black person. The neighborhoods are equivalent and the amenities are equivalent.

Again, the key here is that for whites, they have no reason to recognize any problems because they don't encounter any in this status quo. They expect to be treated fairly as a matter of business and they are. Blacks expect equally fair treatment and find undervaluations of more than $156 billion compared to whites.

$156 billion is not just a couple bad appraisers, it's a system built to keep black homeowners from realizing their due appreciations, thereby denying them and their families of potentially life-altering wealth.

#107 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-05-11 11:32 AM | Reply

"$156 billion is not just a couple bad appraisers, it's a system built to keep black homeowners from realizing their due appreciations, thereby denying them and their families of potentially life-altering wealth."

There you go again, Tony...baffling Republicans with your indiscriminate use of Actual Math. At long last, have you no Republicanism???

#108 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-05-11 11:36 AM | Reply

you're just flapping your lips.

#80 | POSTED BY AMERICANUNITY

He does that a lot around here.

But it's actually his fingers. Apparently he has very flappy fingers.

Apparently.

#109 | Posted by donnerboy at 2021-05-11 12:31 PM | Reply

"you're just flapping your lips."

Totally not racist.

"But it's actually his fingers. Apparently he has very flappy fingers."

That's why the ladies are always happy.

#110 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-05-11 02:42 PM | Reply

Unless BOAZ is doing something about it - like mentoring black ghetto kids - he's just flapping his lips.

He's hung up on accumulating things and money, so I suspect the latter is true.

His taxpayer dollars go towards funding education and all manner of programs to help lift people out of poverty. Like the government paid for his college education, enabling him to rise into the officer ranks.

But he's always whining about taxes, even though we taxpayers are paying him a healthy 5 figures a year in pension after only 20 years, something very few others benefit from.

#111 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2021-05-11 05:40 PM | Reply

"last year as she refinanced her home,"

"Duffy learned of a recent New York Times article"

almost everyone's homes have gone up at least $100,000 in the past year thanks to outrages lumber prices

just another article to push Racism by the Left

#112 | Posted by Maverick at 2021-05-11 05:47 PM | Reply

"The "white man" cant help us(blacks) with this."

Did the "white man" help you (blacks) not be slaves anymore, or did you do that all by your lonesome black selves?

Ever been to Gettysburg, punk?

#113 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-05-11 06:03 PM | Reply

My first boss out of college was a 50-year-old black man who had a PhD in Chemistry from Tuskegee University. When he'd invite me over, you'd never know it was a "black person's home." Except for the pictures of his children on the wall and a portrait that was painted for him by an Industry Ink magazine for scientist of the year. His house was immaculately tidy to the extent he'd keep the stovetop raised after he cleaned under it. Never seen that before, and I've copied him to this day. And he always had an ice-cold can of Budweiser for me as he opened the door.

He is without a doubt the best boss I've ever had. After my father died soon after I was hired, he sort of took on the role of a father figure as well as mentor. It was a pleasure to be his amanuensis and protege. I think I learned more from him in six years than in all the 23 years before.

#114 | Posted by madscientist at 2021-05-11 06:45 PM | Reply

"And WHY does the white guy enjoy that advantage?"

Redlining.

Inheritance laws allow fortunes to be passed tax-free.

Tax code funnels money upward.

Justice system is unequal.

Need more?

#115 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-05-11 08:09 PM | Reply

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