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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Friday, July 16, 2021

Housing has become so expensive in the United States that the typical minimum wage worker cannot afford rent, according to a new report. There is no state, county or city in the country where a full-time, minimum-wage worker working 40 hours a week can afford a two-bedroom rental, a report from the National Low Income Housing Coalition showed.

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You need to make Almost 25.00 an hour to afford a 2 bedroom. Think about how many trades people are barely making enough to survive. The average non-union electrician where I live barely makes enough for an apartment. Something needs to change with wages or housing prices.

#1 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 07:02 AM | Reply

In my part of Texas, a police chief recently went to the City Council to demand more money for his officers. They are leaving the force to work for MacDonalds. Better pay.

#2 | Posted by Zed at 2021-07-16 09:15 AM | Reply

Think about how many trades people are barely making enough to survive.

Not many. I dont know where you live, but everywhere I see, the trades are making a killing. Prices are going up to get electrical work, plumbing or handyman trades.

Go ahead, try and find a handyman.

The average non-union electrician where I live barely makes enough for an apartment.

That's a load of B.S. I just had an electrician, who owns his own business, do some work on a property of mine. His labor was $150 an hour. And he's booked up for the next three months, he just happened to squeeze me in.

Sorry Byrdman, that dog dont hunt.

#3 | Posted by boaz at 2021-07-16 09:52 AM | Reply

"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted".

Ralph Emerson

#4 | Posted by boaz at 2021-07-16 09:57 AM | Reply

#4,

was meant for the nooner..

my apologies..

#5 | Posted by boaz at 2021-07-16 09:57 AM | Reply

Can't wait until the first rightie posts their objection to the idea of any minimum wage at all.

#6 | Posted by danni at 2021-07-16 10:03 AM | Reply

One of these years Bozo will learn the difference between anecdotal evidence and empirical evidence.

Who the hell am I kidding? Stay stupid Boaz, stay in your stupid "individual country."

#7 | Posted by bocaink at 2021-07-16 10:06 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Bocanink,

It's like this all over, I'm sorry if that doesnt help your worldview.

#8 | Posted by boaz at 2021-07-16 10:11 AM | Reply

You act like I don't do this stuff for a living Boaz.

I literally talk to people from "ALL OVER" about the economy and their finances.

Seriously, you couldn't be more ignorant.

#9 | Posted by bocaink at 2021-07-16 10:15 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

And you couldnt be more ignorant either.

#10 | Posted by boaz at 2021-07-16 10:17 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

I literally worked on a major national indicator released 17 minutes ago.

www.sca.isr.umich.edu

What have you done this morning?

#11 | Posted by bocaink at 2021-07-16 10:18 AM | Reply

#12

The Pee Wee Herman defense makes you look really strong and mighty Boaz,

Much more than literally being involved professionally with the topic being discussed on the thread

#12 | Posted by bocaink at 2021-07-16 10:20 AM | Reply

Err...#10 that is.

#13 | Posted by bocaink at 2021-07-16 10:20 AM | Reply

What have you done this morning?

Working on cloud projects for the Department of Defense.

But again, your assertion that trades are only making minimum wage is laughable.

Your "study" has nothing to do with the conversation. It's makes you look stupid to try and link the two.

#14 | Posted by boaz at 2021-07-16 10:32 AM | Reply

Boaz is making the mistake of comparing self employed trades with trades still working for a company.

During the day at my full-time job I only get 20 an hour. Nights and weekends I average 100 an hour including drive time. Thing is it takes years to build up the customer base and the tool stock to go your own way. I'm close and probably could do it but I want a bigger cushion first.

Thing is I've been working towards that goal for almost a decade now if I started today I'm not sure I would be making enough to build the tool stock up the way I could over the past decade and my boss is trying to find someone for 14, at that low unless they are still living at home they will never save up enough to start their own thing.

#15 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2021-07-16 10:32 AM | Reply

"What have you done this morning?

Working on cloud projects for the Department of Defense."

You know nothing about cloud computing, because I said so.

Your little "cloud world" has nothing to do with defense, and you look stupid for trying to compare the two.

- Boaz Logic

#16 | Posted by bocaink at 2021-07-16 10:36 AM | Reply

That's a load of B.S. I just had an electrician, who owns his own business, do some work on a property of mine. His labor was $150 an hour. And he's booked up for the next three months, he just happened to squeeze me in.

Sorry Byrdman, that dog dont hunt.

#3 | Posted by boaz

You're either lying or you REALLY got taken to the cleaners!!

#17 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2021-07-16 10:52 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

That's a load of B.S. I just had an electrician, who owns his own business, do some work on a property of mine. His labor was $150 an hour. And he's booked up for the next three months, he just happened to squeeze me in.
Sorry Byrdman, that dog dont hunt.

#3 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2021-07-16 09:52

You idiot. Do you think his workers get 150 or even close to it?

www.zippia.com

Residential electricians in the United States make an average salary of $53,314 per year or $25.63 per hour. People on the lower end of that spectrum, the bottom 10% to be exact, make roughly $38,000 a year, while the top 10% makes $73,000. As most things go, location can be critical. Alaska, Washington, Minnesota, Oregon, and New York provide the highest residential electrician salaries.

Is Boaz ignorant or a Liar?

#18 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 10:55 AM | Reply

www.ziprecruiter.com
As of Jul 9, 2021, the average annual pay for a Residential Electrician in the United States is $45,981 a year.

Just in case you need a simple salary calculator, that works out to be approximately $22.11 an hour. This is the equivalent of $884/week or $3,832/month.

#19 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 10:57 AM | Reply

Just like I said trades people aren't really getting ahead anymore

www.salary.com
How much does a Plumber make in the United States? The average Plumber salary in the United States is $58,559 as of June 28, 2021, but the range typically falls between $50,929 and $66,995. Salary ranges can vary widely depending on many important factors, including education, certifications, additional skills, the number of years you have spent in your profession. With more online, real-time compensation data than any other website, Salary.com helps you determine your exact pay target.

#20 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 10:59 AM | Reply

Well,

I guess this is just one situation where your data doesnt represent the reality on the ground.

Trades people in NC are making a HELL of alot more than that, especially if they have their own business.

#21 | Posted by boaz at 2021-07-16 11:03 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#16,

I dont know where that came from. You really are in your own world, hearing "boaz" voices.

#22 | Posted by boaz at 2021-07-16 11:05 AM | Reply

Well,
I guess this is just one situation where your data doesnt represent the reality on the ground.
Trades people in NC are making a HELL of alot more than that, especially if they have their own business.

#21 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2021-07-16 11:03 AM |

www.ziprecruiter.com

State Annual Salary Monthly Pay Weekly Pay Hourly Wage

North Carolina $43,503 $3,625 $837 $20.92

www.indeed.com

Average base salary

713 salaries reported, updated at July 6, 2021
$21.98
per hour
The average salary for a electrician is $21.98 per hour in North Carolina and $7,500 overtime per year.

#23 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 11:12 AM | Reply

Where is Boaz getting his info from?

Boaz care to extrapolate where you get your data from?

I am not seeing this information from the usual sources?

Can somebody fill me in where Trade workers are getting rich if they aren't the business owner? I think I know more what people in Trades get since I am in the IBEW.

#24 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 11:14 AM | Reply

BTW Just wanted to add why joining a union is the smart thing to do.

www.indeed.com

$44.31 per hour

All the union haters can suck it.

#25 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 11:17 AM | Reply

12,000 hours to be a Master Electrician. f--- me. It's only 1500 hours for an Airline Transport Pilot Certificate and the lowest Captain salary I could find on a major airline for a first year was $97k, with a high of $325k.

#26 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-07-16 11:24 AM | Reply

#21

The especially if they own their own business part is the issue. Also that 150 an hour? He owns his own business so he has to pay payroll taxes on that. So figure 40 hours at 150 an hour 6k a week, taxes eat probably 30% so 2k, liability insurance another 50 a week, health insurance another 250 a week, gas another 50 incidental parts another 50. So generously he's pulling 90 net an hour.

Then how much does he have tied up in tools and a truck? How many years did he have to work for someone else making 15-20 an hour, how much a year does his electrical license cost and how many hours does he need to dedicate to in-services and keeping up to date for testing?

Yeah by the time he gets there he's making good money but it didn't start out that way and the money you are paying him is before a whole lot of expenses.

#27 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2021-07-16 11:25 AM | Reply

#22

You really can't see my absurd logic in #16 is exactly what you are saying and doing anytime you are faced with hard empirical data. It's not just the wages, it's the prices, which the study I work on CLEARLY shows why the assertion in this article is correct.

You just don't have the critical thinking ability to understand empirical data. You've proven it over and over again. You consider science to be a "worldview" and it leads me to highly doubt the veracity of your so-called profession.

More or less, I think you are full of crap.

#28 | Posted by bocaink at 2021-07-16 11:33 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I see a lot of commentary around the internet blaming the landlords for the high cost of housing. It's sad that we seem to have an entire generation or two who don't understand that it's wages that have been stagnant for decades. The price of housing is going to increase just like any other product.

#29 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2021-07-16 11:40 AM | Reply

Well, Bocaink,

You really mean nothing in the scheme of things anyway, especially to me.

Most of the trades around here, you can make $100K if you apply yourself. We are pushing kids who dont want to go to college into the trades, telling them they can make more than a college graduate in most cases, and it's true.

If an entry level tradesman does a good job and is reliable, even if they are starting out, there's no reason they cant make 70K to 100K a year.

#30 | Posted by boaz at 2021-07-16 11:41 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

#27 | POSTED BY TAOWARRIOR AT 2021-07-16 11:25 AM

I don't think he even wants to see the truth behind numbers. A lot of what were considered "good" blue collar jobs just don't pay enough to get ahead anymore. Even being in the Union the wages are better but we aren't rich by any means.

#31 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 11:48 AM | Reply

If an entry level tradesman does a good job and is reliable, even if they are starting out, there's no reason they cant make 70K to 100K a year.

#30 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2021-07-16 11:41 AM

WTF??? He must be an idiot or is delusional.

#32 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 11:49 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

www.indeed.com

The average salary for a apprentice plumber is $13.57 per hour in North Carolina and $5,429 overtime per year.

#33 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 11:50 AM | Reply

#30

Boaz there is no way in heck an entry level tradesman makes 70k a year in NC. Not sure how many you know but I know a ton and I make more than all but a few. I make about 80k a year after over a decade working an average of 55 hours a week. The few I know making more than me are pushing 20 years in the trades.

#34 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2021-07-16 11:50 AM | Reply

Minimum wage earners are never going to catch up to the point where they can afford rent to live alone or support a family.

It's not going to ever happen

#35 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-16 11:52 AM | Reply

I had electrical runs recently added to my house. The Master electrician spec'd out the job. The Journeymen added the circuits, ran wiring, etc, and in general made it all work. The Apprentices were highschoolers. They got to dig the trench, then fill it back in. Nobody is making 80k for that, I don't care how reliable you are lol.

#36 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-07-16 11:59 AM | Reply

My son is in his 2nd step of 6 as an apprentice pipefitter for a fire protection company. He makes $17.11. A few hours of overtime a week. Moves up a step about every six months, each step has a raise proportionate to the remaining steps toward full journeyman scale. Full journeyman scale is $26-something. With some OT maybe $60K. He's doing OK for a 21 year old with no significant debt or dependents. He just moved into a 1br apartment on his own. I wanted him to stay with me another year and save up for a down payment to buy a starter home, but he was eager to get out on his own. I'm proud of his desire to be independent.

I manage a distribution fleet. Class A CDL drivers are making $27.32 for an average 44 hour workweek. We also pay a quarterly $1500 retention bonus. Average total wages about 70K annually. Plus a benefits package worth about another 20K. Class A CDL drivers are in extremely high demand in my area.

#37 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-07-16 12:22 PM | Reply

As Tao pointed out being charged $150/hr. isn't the same as making $150/hr.

I'm in SC about an hour from Charlotte NC so I constantly get job postings for positions like mine (lab technician) and most of them are offering less than I make way out here in nowheresville ($16/hr). No way could I live the same lifestyle in Charlotte on less money!

#38 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-07-16 12:29 PM | Reply

Minimum wage earners are never going to catch up to the point where they can afford rent to live alone or support a family.

It was a reality for about three decades.

1950s -1970s

Minimum wage allowed a man to support his entire family.

It's not going to ever happen
#35 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Not with people, like you, saying it's impossible and voting for Republicans who ensure it is.

#39 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-07-16 01:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It isn't even minimum wage workers anymore. It is people with 10 years experience in trades that are struggling.

#40 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 01:28 PM | Reply

The biggest issue with telling a kid to skip college and go in the trades and make 70-100k a year is they do then spend the first couple years digging ditches or doing the grunt work for 12-15 an hour and say screw this and quit.

We see it ALL the time a 20 something starts is worked half to death for the same or less than they can get working in the AC at Target and leave. Then they end up stuck as a Target employee for life. Don't set unrealistic expectations. We have one kid here who almost did that. I had a talk with him though because he's smart as heck and I didn't want to lose him, also he's a nice kid and a good worker. I told him take the pay hit for a couple years and I'll make sure you get training and in 5 years you'll be making twice what you would be. He listened and is getting trained as I type, unfortunately the stone department stole him.

#41 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2021-07-16 01:30 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

That's a good point Tao unfortunately most don't have the same opportunity as the young man in your example. Companies constantly whine they can't find qualified candidates yet they refuse to train, mentor, and offer opportunities to advance to their current employees.
I think a lot of that is because there isn't that many good paying jobs so they often end up being given out as gifts and favors to friends and family.
The current median income is 35k...I can't stand that bs household median income figure that's always used to show wage growth.

#42 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-07-16 03:13 PM | Reply

Scotte, most of the guys I know in the trades are always looking for a good hire. We are all perpetually overloaded so pretty much any employee who shows promise we will do our best to get on a fast training track. Unfortunately management can be our worst enemy in that regards.

#43 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2021-07-16 03:48 PM | Reply

"It was a reality for about three decades.
1950s -1970s"

Then along came the former President of the Screen Actors Guild to bust the unions that created our middle class.

#44 | Posted by danni at 2021-07-16 04:49 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

#44,

No, those "unions" started demanding over inflated wages too much.

Employers got tired of it and stopped using unions and the thugs that ran them.

#45 | Posted by boaz at 2021-07-16 04:58 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#45 | POSTED BY BOAZ

www.investors.com

#46 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-07-16 05:08 PM | Reply

-Not with people, like you, saying it's impossible and voting for Republicans who ensure it is.

Even without people like me.

I'm not the reason for your lot in life, folks.

Blame me if you want. I'll just laugh back

#47 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-16 05:10 PM | Reply

"Then along came a global workforce competing for work"

FT

LOL. Blaming Reagan for this is funny indeed

#48 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-16 05:12 PM | Reply

Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households.

Who deserves the blame for that, Eberly?

#49 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 06:01 PM | Reply

Me, and the people you think I vote for, of course.

Why be coy? Admit it.

#50 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-16 06:13 PM | Reply

No, those "unions" started demanding over inflated wages too much.
Employers got tired of it and stopped using unions and the thugs that ran them.

#45 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2021-07-16 04:58 PM

You mean reasonably ask for living wages not 14.00 bucks an hour to bust ass and not make enough to survive.

#51 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 06:43 PM | Reply

Eberly, you can just say that you don't know.

It's okay to not know things. It's even a sign of intelligence.

#52 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 07:00 PM | Reply

This is BS. Many skilled trade jobs are available and so are positions in training.

www.axios.com

Go cry somewhere else. My employer has been begging people to come back to work for nearly a year. And entry level starts around $35k.

#53 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 07:03 PM | Reply

Do you or Danni know?

You both think you do.

It doesn't matter.

Minimum wage is never going to be enough to live on.

No matter how many Republicans die of COVID or old age ... ... nothing will change.

Not even you clown and danni whining about it and blaming me.

#54 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-16 07:04 PM | Reply

-Go cry somewhere else.

The real world has kicked these imbeciles to the curb so this is the only place for them to cry.

#55 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-16 07:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Do you or Danni know?"

Corporations choose how much to pay.

Corporations also choose to close factories here and move them to where labor is cheaper.

You really think there's someone else to blame? Someone or something that forced Neutron Jack to become Neutron Jack? Do tell!

#56 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 07:08 PM | Reply

"Corporations choose how much to pay"

No they dont. THey pay what the labor market allows them to pay. Companies want to get away paying as little as possible, employees want to make as much as possible. They meet somewhere in the middle unless a person hires in from the neck down. If a person doesn't have a skill or trade, then they're at the mercy of the lower end of the pay scale. Why? because they're not valuable. It's that simple.

#57 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 07:14 PM | Reply

you clown and danni whining about it and blaming me.
#54 | POSTED BY EBERLY

You poor thing.

You're such a victim!

By the way. Calling you out for saying something is impossible, when you're complicit, isn't whining.

But. Carry on.

#58 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-07-16 07:23 PM | Reply

Clown, if I'm complicit then tell me who I've helped elect that touched you in your naughty place?

Name names please.

#59 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-16 07:25 PM | Reply

-Corporations choose how much to pay.

Employers choose, yes. Most of whom are small business.

And if it's all their choice then why does anybody make more than minimum wage.

Why would an employer "choose" to pay me someone any more?

#60 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-16 07:27 PM | Reply

"Corporations choose how much to pay"

"No they dont. THey pay what the labor market allows them to pay."

^
That's absolute nonsense.

Corporations, like individuals, control their own fate, and make their own decisions.

The labor market is a lot cheaper in China. So corporations choose to buy labor there. Our government, being Capitalist, doesn't care that it harms America.

#61 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 07:29 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

"Why would an employer "choose" to pay me someone any more?"

Becauae The Good Old Boys take care of The Good Old Boys.

#62 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 07:30 PM | Reply

62

Economic wizard right there.

#63 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-16 07:34 PM | Reply

Why do you make more than minimum wage, Eberly?

#64 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 07:36 PM | Reply

The labor market is a lot cheaper in China. So corporations choose to buy labor there. Our government, being Capitalist, doesn't care that it harms America.

#61 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2021-07-16 07:29 PM | REPLY

We're not in China. We don't directly compete with Chinese manufacturing, we lost that a long time ago to Republicans and Democrats in lockstep with lobbyists. Same with NAFTA and CAFTA. What we're dealing with here is service industry and assembly jobs left here in the US. Stop trying to muddy the water.

#65 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 07:50 PM | Reply

Why do you make more than minimum wage, Eberly?

#64 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2021-07-16 07:36 PM | REPLY

I'll go out on a limb and guess. Because he's more valuable? Because he owns his own company and took risks to invest in startup?

#66 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 07:56 PM | Reply

I make minimum wage. My employer chooses to pay me that

It's all their choice, according to snoofy.

I have no say. It has nothing to do with the competitive marketplace of labor.

It's just the employers choice.

#67 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-16 07:56 PM | Reply

BTW, I'm not a "good ole boy"

#68 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-16 07:57 PM | Reply

If I invest 2 million dollars of my money in a startup marketing company, why the hell should I pay an intern more than I pay myself as a salary. It would be much smarter to layout goals for said intern to earn performance bonuses rather than give them everything without proving themselves.. In fact, I'm not above taking a position without a salary that provides private equity to me when I make the company bank. That's just good business and it benefits both the company and the employee.

#69 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 08:00 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

"It's just the employers choice."

It is the employer's choice to offer what they do. It's the employee's choice to take it or leave it.

And if you want to get more money than what is being offered, you need a pretty convincing reason of why you deserve it.

For most people, they're not in much of a position to argue. Most basketball players aren't getting paid like LeBron, because they can't do what LeBron does.

#70 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 08:04 PM | Reply

"If I invest 2 million dollars of my money in a startup marketing company, why the hell should I pay an intern more than I pay myself as a salary."

If all your employees are interns, that's pretty messed up. Where are the mentors for these interns? Sounds like a scam to me.

Why would an investor get a salary from a company? That's not how investing works.

#71 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 08:06 PM | Reply

"It has nothing to do with the competitive marketplace of labor."

At minimum wage, there is not much in the way of a competitive market. Because these are jobs that typically don't require much in the way of skills. You and I and most any high school graduate could go do them right now.

#72 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 08:10 PM | Reply

If all your employees are interns, that's pretty messed up. Where are the mentors for these interns? Sounds like a scam to me.
Why would an investor get a salary from a company? That's not how investing works.

#71 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2021-07-16 08:06 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

You're grasping for straws at this point. I'd only have a couple of interns. Point is it gives them a chance to prove themselves and still make good money if they're worth their salt. Dont just throw the checkbook at them. Let them earn it through bringing business onboard. Quit making excuses and muddying the water.

#73 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 08:12 PM | Reply

#69 | Posted by BellRinger

You again.

I guess it's good for anyone who might care about you that you didn't choke on your own saliva while tying your shoes.

If there actually is anyone...

It's only a matter of time though.

:)

#74 | Posted by billy_boy at 2021-07-16 08:15 PM | Reply

"We're not in China. We don't directly compete with Chinese manufacturing, we lost that a long time ago to Republicans and Democrats in lockstep with lobbyists."

Capital doesn't care what country it gets spent in.

And far too many Capitalists don't care how they get richer.

Far too many people think lower wages is a good trade for lower prices. The reality is that higher prices is a good trade for higher wages.

Increased consumer spending drives and grows the economy. Not increased consumer acquisition of goods and services.

#75 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 08:18 PM | Reply

if I'm complicit

What do you mean "if"?

Look. I understand you're stuck in an area with only Republicans to vote for.

But those Republicans are the people making sure the rich are getting theirs while the rest of us fight for what's we can get.

You're opening sentence was, "never gonna happen."

It's not that it can't. It's that Republican politicians - mainly the rich people who own them - have convinced people they don't deserve a living wage.

You have posters here who are convinced minimum wage isn't supposed to be a living wage. Because those jobs don't meet some imagined level of "skill."

Yet. Those people have enough of a skill to get a job, and those jobs need those employees, those "essential workers."

Face it. Republicans are fine with people working 40 hours a week and not earning enough to afford to live.

#76 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-07-16 08:20 PM | Reply

-It's not that it can't.

But it is that it can't.

Throughout the sewage posted by snoofy he actually gives good reasons, by accident, that make the case why it will never happen.

#77 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-16 08:25 PM | Reply

You again.
I guess it's good for anyone who might care about you that you didn't choke on your own saliva while tying your shoes.
If there actually is anyone...
It's only a matter of time though.
:)

#74 | POSTED BY BILLY_BOY AT 2021-07-16 08:15 PM

Good luck with that

#78 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 08:29 PM | Reply

Capital doesn't care what country it gets spent in.
And far too many Capitalists don't care how they get richer.
Far too many people think lower wages is a good trade for lower prices. The reality is that higher prices is a good trade for higher wages.
Increased consumer spending drives and grows the economy. Not increased consumer acquisition of goods and services.

#75 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2021-07-16 08:18 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Correct but we can't bring back the type of jobs you're commenting about overnight. Point is, we deal with what's available. not what's lost.

#79 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 08:31 PM | Reply

Face it. Republicans are fine with people working 40 hours a week and not earning enough to afford to live.
#76 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

Yep. I'd say that's at the heart of the issue.
In their minds, minimum wage is hurting the people who need to be hurt.
They'd eliminate minimum wage to hurt them more, if they could.

Conservatives think hurting poor people helps them escape poverty.

#80 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 08:33 PM | Reply

Correct but we can't bring back the type of jobs you're commenting about overnight.

We could start.
But we won't.
Because too many people like you think greed is good... except when poor people want $15/hr, then it's deeply insulting to your morals.

#81 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 08:34 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Go cry somewhere else. My employer has been begging people to come back to work for nearly a year. And entry level starts around $35k.

#53 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER AT 2021-07-16 07:03 PM | REPLY

I'd be interested to know what kind of work and where it's located?

That seems like a good starting salary and can't see why the positions couldn't easily be filled.

#82 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-07-16 08:49 PM | Reply

"That seems like a good starting salary"

Really depends on your location. That's $3/hr more than California minimum wage. Which isn't much of a salary. And if your employer isn't paying for health care, you might be taking home a lot less than you think.

#83 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 08:55 PM | Reply

In their minds, minimum wage is hurting the people who need to be hurt.

They definitely agree that people working 40 hours a week making minimum wage don't deserve to afford to live a comfortable life.

Mostly because it makes them value their own lives less.

#84 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-07-16 08:58 PM | Reply

"My employer has been begging people to come back to work for nearly a year. And entry level starts around $35k."

It sure sounds like your employer isn't actually begging all that hard.

Make that $50k and the begging would have ended a year ago, don't you think?

#85 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 09:01 PM | Reply

Snoofy,
I don't know what or where the job is...or if it even exists, that's why I was asking.

#86 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-07-16 09:16 PM | Reply

We could start.
But we won't.
Because too many people like you think greed is good... except when poor people want $15/hr, then it's deeply insulting to your morals.

#81 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2021-07-16 08:34 PM | FLAG:
(CHOOSE)

People like me? I don't think greed is good. I'm simply telling you how the market works. Don't like it, Tell Democrats to quit voting for it. I used to be a democrat until I figured out they were an equal part of the problem. Clinton didn't have to sign NAFA. And I supported him until he did. Do some homework and quit blaming me.

The biggest problem with this subject is that you people want to blame the other side when your own side made it possible. Get over yourself.

#87 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 09:17 PM | Reply

I'd be interested to know what kind of work and where it's located?
That seems like a good starting salary and can't see why the positions couldn't easily be filled.

#82 | POSTED BY SCOTTE AT 2021-07-16 08:49 PM

Look up any Non Destructive Testing company and apply. Acuren, TEAM, Versa etc... They're out there.

#88 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 09:18 PM | Reply

35K for people with an engineering degree? 17 bucks an hour? No wonder you have to beg.

#89 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 09:26 PM | Reply

35K for people with an engineering degree? 17 bucks an hour? No wonder you have to beg.

#89 | POSTED BY BYRDMAN AT 2021-07-16 09:26 PM |

Who said anything about a degree, --------?

#90 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 09:28 PM | Reply

Also it depends the location of this job. 17 bucks in an rural area might be ok. In Chicago not so much.

#91 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 09:30 PM | Reply

www.acuren.com
Acuren's world-class team of engineers has extensive experience both in the field and in our laboratories to provide a higher level of reliability.

#92 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 09:31 PM | Reply

Also it depends the location of this job. 17 bucks in an rural area might be ok. In Chicago not so much.

#91 | POSTED BY BYRDMAN AT 2021-07-16 09:30 PM | REPLY |

Sure does. But that's a lot more than minimum wage in the real world.

#93 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 09:34 PM | Reply

"Why would anyone watch a 20 minute video about something that is, even according to you, just rebranding capitalization on the so-called SJW and "woke" movements?"

Now you've gone from being a partisan hack to a full-blown troll to behaving like a mindless bot regurgitating demonstrably false garbage. So either you're a bot or you're utterly shameless, "Chuffy".

Well, now the thread is done, and you can't respond with your lies anymore. Nobody won this thread, but the Retort clearly lost.

/thread

#94 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-07-16 09:36 PM | Reply

Acuren's world-class team of engineers has extensive experience both in the field and in our laboratories to provide a higher level of reliability.

#92 | POSTED BY BYRDMAN AT 2021-07-16 09:31 PM | REPLY

You're looking at engineering, not Non Destructive Testing. Big difference, but I'm sure you already know that. So STFU.

#95 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 09:36 PM | Reply

#92 - Byrdman - did you review the "hot jobs" link at their site? There's only one in the US and two in Canada. From the site they sound like a decent company. Team was a different experience when I went to their website.

#96 | Posted by YAV at 2021-07-16 09:37 PM | Reply

Oops, wrong thread.

#97 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-07-16 09:37 PM | Reply

"Clinton didn't have to sign NAFA."

But someone was bound to.

Clinton and Dole, Democrats and Republicans, both supported NAFTA, GATT, and WIPO.

Which is something Pat Buchanan pointed out.

It was at that time I realized if Pat freaking Buchanan is right about something, then American politics are in a very dark place indeed.

Trump had a chance to correct some of these imbalances, but since Trump only cares about Trump, Trump didn't really have a chance to do anything other than Trump.

#98 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 09:37 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Bellringer, he's looking at the jobs link if he's looking at what I'm looking at.

If you want people to buy what you're trying to sell them, provide a decent link.

#99 | Posted by YAV at 2021-07-16 09:38 PM | Reply

recruiting.ultipro.com

Here is all the Job openings for Acuren. None for entry level people off the street. Same old story. They want experienced people.

#100 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 09:38 PM | Reply

"But someone was bound to"
~snoofy

So it's ok that Bill Clinton did it instead of a republican? Get on the record.

#101 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 09:38 PM | Reply

"The biggest problem with this subject is that you people want to blame the other side when your own side made it possible. Get over yourself."

I've been pretty clear about blaming Capitalism.

Capitalism as currently practiced has become a cancer. We shouldn't allow money in politics, for example.

The problem isn't so much Capitalism, it's the application of Capitalism to solve problems it cannot address, such as health care.

#102 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 09:40 PM | Reply

Here is all the Job openings for Acuren. None for entry level people off the street. Same old story. They want experienced people.

#100 | POSTED BY BYRDMAN AT 2021-07-16 09:38 PM | REPLY

All the NDE entry level jobs aren't posted. That doesn't mean they aren't hiring. Most come from notifications that go out to the schools that get them their classroom hours. These companies market those jobs through the schools too.
Sometimes they post outside too. Or through the different outlets like ziprecruiter etc...

#103 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 09:43 PM | Reply

Oops - misspoke about the hot jobs, there's a few more than I said. Stepping outta this convo.

#104 | Posted by YAV at 2021-07-16 09:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

NDT.com is also a huge recruiter base too.

#105 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 09:43 PM | Reply

For example, what's Capitalism's solution to minimum wage not being enough to afford an apartment?

The solution is for wealthy people to buy even more rental properties as income generators. Which is simply wealth redistribution, upwards. Which is the reason minimum wage isn't enough to afford an apartment in the first place.

#106 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 09:49 PM | Reply

Snoofy the problem is that even double minimum wage isn't enough to afford an apartment. The rich expect people to live 5 to a 2 bedroom apartment. The system is broken. I consider myself lucky to have purchased a home before prices went nuts.

#107 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-16 09:56 PM | Reply

Bill Clinton Signed NAFTA.

Are you good with that?

#108 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 10:34 PM | Reply

"The system is broken. I consider myself lucky to have purchased a home before prices went nuts."

Yep.

I worry if I buy a house now, the bottom will fall out. But, not really that worried. A house is more of a place to live to me, than an investment. Will probably buy something in someplace cheap within the next year.

#109 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 10:37 PM | Reply

This is why you have roommates.

#110 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-07-16 10:37 PM | Reply

Bill Clinton Signed NAFTA.
Are you good with that?

, Snoofy?

#111 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 10:38 PM | Reply

Always surprised to see real world salaries offering less than a mil E4 could possibly make with a HS diploma, clean background, ability to stay out of trouble and pass drug tests.

#112 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2021-07-16 10:40 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Bill Clinton Signed NAFTA.
Are you good with that?
#108 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

Meh. Generally I favor free trade over protectionism. Generally.

Obviously Trump was generally okay with it too, as "The USMCA took effect on July 1, 2020, replacing NAFTA. The new law involved only small changes."

#113 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 10:42 PM | Reply

You favor free trade?

#114 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 10:43 PM | Reply

so you favored sending our manufacturing overseas? Oh wow.

#115 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 10:44 PM | Reply

So you sided with Trump!

#116 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 10:46 PM | Reply

What a loser!

#117 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-07-16 10:46 PM | Reply

"so you favored sending our manufacturing overseas?"

Overseas?
You mean, across the Rio Grande?

While I'd prefer low skilled jobs stay here, I'd rather send those jobs to Mexico than China. They do more for us in Mexico than China.

#118 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 10:50 PM | Reply

"You favor free trade?"

"so you favored sending our manufacturing overseas?"

These are two different things.

#119 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 10:59 PM | Reply

Boaz is like many on the right that I come across that see 1 or 2 instances of someone making lots of money at a blue collar job (all likely the owners of that particular company, or the head foreman) and then assume that All people in that trade or profession make that much money. They think this way because it fits with their world view. See, if they take the view that these people are all well off, or not in that bad of shape fiscally, then they can rest their little minds that all is still well in America, and they don't have to concern themselves with their fellow man. It makes life much easier and less stressful to wander through if they can continue to believe in the fantasy that 'America is still great'...

#120 | Posted by earthmuse at 2021-07-16 11:55 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

The beautiful thing about the Marketplace is that the laws of supply and demand apply to everything, including wages. Right now wages are increasing for everywhere job throughout the nation. Employers are finding it almost impossible to fill all the open positions. So they are facing a decision they hate, - either increase wages or leave positions unfilled. I am currently driving across the USA. I have been blown away by the number of "help wanted" signs on businesses in every place I have driven through. Employers are desperate for workers. Wages are going up and will continue going up. God bless the law of supply and demand. And for what it is worth, it seems pretty obvious that this situation is a direct result of the national economic recovery following the Covid pandemic.

#121 | Posted by moder8 at 2021-07-17 12:01 AM | Reply

"The beautiful thing about the Marketplace is that the laws of supply and demand apply to everything, including wages. Right now wages are increasing for everywhere job throughout the nation. Employers are finding it almost impossible to fill all the open positions. So they are facing a decision they hate, - either increase wages or leave positions unfilled. I am currently driving across the USA. I have been blown away by the number of "help wanted" signs on businesses in every place I have driven through. Employers are desperate for workers. Wages are going up and will continue going up. God bless the law of supply and demand. And for what it is worth, it seems pretty obvious that this situation is a direct result of the national economic recovery following the Covid pandemic."

Yeah, but after general wage stagnation for 20+ years. Chart some median incomes against median home prices in most of the country and you'll see why many will roll their eyes at what you just wrote.

Cost of living was an issue BEFORE the pandemic, if you care to remember.

#122 | Posted by arthurmann at 2021-07-17 12:23 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

...as well as after (obviously)

#123 | Posted by arthurmann at 2021-07-17 12:24 AM | Reply

As recently as 2008, GM, Ford and Chrysler paid their employees on average more than $73 an hour in total compensation. The 12 foreign transplants, operating in nonunion states mostly in the South and Midwest, averaged about $42 an hour.

Guess which manufacturers are healthiest and expanding their market today? In 2008, the Big Three still made 59% of all cars in the U.S. But, according to recent estimates, their market share is now 46% " with foreign companies selling the bulk of all U.S. cars. So Detroit's loss has been the South's and Midwest's gain.

Artificially setting wages does not work.

#124 | Posted by boaz at 2021-07-17 08:41 AM | Reply

Snoofy finally hit one out of the park..

"Clinton didn't have to sign NAFA."

But someone was bound to.

Clinton and Dole, Democrats and Republicans, both supported NAFTA, GATT, and WIPO.

Which is something Pat Buchanan pointed out.

It was at that time I realized if Pat freaking Buchanan is right about something, then American politics are in a very dark place indeed.

Trump had a chance to correct some of these imbalances, but since Trump only cares about Trump, Trump didn't really have a chance to do anything other than Trump.

#98 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-16 09:37 PM

#125 | Posted by boaz at 2021-07-17 08:45 AM | Reply

"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted".
Ralph Emerson

#4 | POSTED BY BOAZ

That you would unironically post that is beyond hilarious.

#126 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 11:27 AM | Reply

I guess this is just one situation where your data doesnt represent the reality on the ground.
Trades people in NC are making a HELL of alot more than that, especially if they have their own business.

#21 | POSTED BY BOAZ

LOL FFS dude.

Can you be any more of a moron?

#127 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 11:32 AM | Reply

The current median income is 35k...I can't stand that bs household median income figure that's always used to show wage growth.

#42 | POSTED BY SCOTTE

I always assumed median household income was based on a two income household. I guess that's largely correct.

$35K median income though...f$%^ me.

#128 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 11:40 AM | Reply

We don't directly compete with Chinese manufacturing, we lost that a long time ago to Republicans and Democrats in lockstep with lobbyists.

Don't leave American consumers out of that pile of blame.

We did it to ourselves in order to float the illusion of a more opulent lifestyle.

When choosing between a larger TV and more economic stability we resoundingly chose the larger TV.

#129 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 11:48 AM | Reply

" $35K median income though...f$%^ me."

I'm not sure where the author got that number; median income is more like $40K.

#130 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-07-17 12:02 PM | Reply

There threads should be banned.

It's the equivalent of global warming or even COVID where misinformation is spread.

#131 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-17 12:14 PM | Reply

Misinformation?

#132 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 12:23 PM | Reply

"Don't leave American consumers out of that pile of blame.
We did it to ourselves in order to float the illusion of a more opulent lifestyle."

Consumers have limited power and limited blame here.

It's like blaming low-wage workers for union busting. It's like blaming people who get health care from their employer for the existence of employment based health care.

Consumers didn't petition American companies to move manufacturing overseas. Consumers didn't chase lower wages to boost their profits. Those decisions were made on Wall Street, and trickled down to Main Street.

#133 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 12:37 PM | Reply

I'm not sure where the author got that number; median income is more like $40K.

#130 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2021-07-17 12:02 PM | REPLY

I posted the 35k that information comes from the social security administration.

Where did you get the 40k figure?

Household income is income from everyone in the household over 16. They don't need to be related just living in the same household.

And remember this is gross income before taxes are taken out.

#134 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-07-17 12:47 PM | Reply

"Household income is income from everyone in the household over 16. They don't need to be related just living in the same household."

That is not the definition of a household.

If I have some random grad student from China as my roommate, he is not part of my household.

#135 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 12:55 PM | Reply

"Where did you get the 40k figure?"

usafacts.org

"Household income is income from everyone in the household over 16. "

That means your claim is off even more. Your $35K number is NOT "household income"; it's individual median income. Median household income is about twice that number.

#136 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-07-17 12:58 PM | Reply

ScottE,

Just to be sure you understand, please go back to the place you got the $35K number, make sure the year is up to date, and choose "household" income. Please post the results. Thanks.

#137 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-07-17 01:08 PM | Reply

People who can't understand the facts and data regarding wages aren't really any difference than global warming deniers.

The facts are the reality.

But what do the deniers respond with? It's a political conspiracy.

People like me who accept the facts and data WANT minimum wage to be less than a living wage.

As is what I want matters at all.

Yes, the more one compares you easily come to the conclusion that there is a strong comparison between the deniers on this subject and global warming deniers.

Ignore facts and data (reality) in favor of believing it's a conspiracy

#138 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-17 01:10 PM | Reply

Yes ... ..misinformation.
We have posters here who blame your pathetic minimum wage on Ronald Reagan.

That's misinformation.

#139 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-17 01:12 PM | Reply

"We have posters here who blame your pathetic minimum wage on Ronald Reagan."

Reagan promisesmd it would trickle down.
Was that misinformation, or was it true?

Let us know if you need help connecting the dots.

#140 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 01:14 PM | Reply

"But what do the deniers respond with? It's a political conspiracy."

I don't see where that claim was made in this thread.

The only one talking about conspiracy is you, Eberly.

#141 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 01:16 PM | Reply

-Reagan promisesmd it would trickle down.
Was that misinformation, or was it true?

So now you are claiming tax cuts passed during Reagan's administration are the blame for why your minimum wage doesn't go far enough ... .today?

#142 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-17 01:18 PM | Reply

"It's that Republican politicians - mainly the rich people who own them - have convinced people they don't deserve a living wage."

#143 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-17 01:19 PM | Reply

It's not about me, fatso.

Did it trickle down, or was that misinformation?

#144 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 01:19 PM | Reply

"You want me to stay poor"

vs

"You just want to control what I drive and tax me more"

Similar babbling to me ... ...

#145 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-17 01:20 PM | Reply

#143 You're calling that a conspiracy?

That's hardly a secret. Republicans are proud of how much they hate the poor. No conspiracy is in play there.

#146 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 01:21 PM | Reply

-It's not about me, fatso.

I think it is. Selfishness is fodder for deniers such as yourself.

#147 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-17 01:25 PM | Reply

Try thinking with your brain, not your bitter, shriveled heart.

#148 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 01:25 PM | Reply

But you've done a good job demonstrating my point: Republicans hate the poor, and think they deserved to be poor.

#149 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 01:27 PM | Reply

There is no secret, for sure.

Perhaps a conspiracy requires secrecy. I don't know. It doesn't matter.

But we have dolts here who are shocked that 2+2=4.

#150 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-17 01:28 PM | Reply

-Republicans hate the poor, and think they deserved to be poor.

"Democrats hate the rich , which is why their envy is behind their attempts to take away their SUVs, and private jets, and turn off the AC in their McMansions."

Wow, the similarities are right there.

#151 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-17 01:31 PM | Reply

"Perhaps a conspiracy requires secrecy. I don't know. It doesn't matter."

^
Misinformation

#152 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 01:43 PM | Reply

Danforth,
The difference in the figures is that your source uses the BLS which uses an employer survey and mine came from the social security administration which besides having a much larger database uses actual wages earned so I lean towards the SSA figure as being a more accurate reflection.

I'm not sure if I wasn't clear or you didn't see my original post but I was saying I don't like the way everyone uses median household income as opposed to individual median income to show how wages are increasing.

#153 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-07-17 01:46 PM | Reply

" ... a much larger database uses actual wages ... "

That's actually a smaller database; mine includes the self-employed as well.

#154 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-07-17 01:52 PM | Reply

" I was saying I don't like the way everyone uses median household income"

Yes, and then you misused household income.

Please answer: what's the median household income?

#155 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-07-17 01:54 PM | Reply

Not sure why you're being so argumentative but self employed people pay social security and there's no way a survey could provide more data than the information social security collects on wage earners

I didn't misuse the term because I never used it for any examples...I made a state ment about it's use by the media and those who really don't pay attention as a substitute for individual wages.

You can look up median household income and use it for any point you'd like to make.

#156 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-07-17 02:40 PM | Reply

Still waiting For Boaz to admit he was wrong after being debunked on this thread.

#157 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-17 04:20 PM | Reply

" Not sure why you're being so argumentative but self employed people pay social security"

Self employed people don't technically earn a wage.

#158 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-07-17 05:00 PM | Reply

" there's no way a survey could provide more data ... "

It's not the kind of "survey" you fill out and return.

#159 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-07-17 05:01 PM | Reply

It's not the kind of "survey" you fill out and return.

#159 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2021-07-17 05:01 PM |

I get that but it's not like every employer in the us is surveyed. The SSA has data on everyone earning wages except those paid under the table and they have no reason to skew wages downward since they collect taxes based on the amount you're paid.

My initial point was there's not that many good paying jobs with half the workforce at 35k and under.

What point we're you trying to make with the median household income?

#160 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-07-17 05:23 PM | Reply

"What point we're you trying to make with the median household income?"

I don't know what point Danforth was making, but:
Your definition of "household" is incorrect. It's not your roommates. It only includes relatives and dependents.
If you and I split an apartment, we would each maintain our own household of one person each at that address. In economic terms, you would have your own household, and I would have my own household.

#161 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 05:29 PM | Reply

" The SSA has data on everyone earning wages"

So they don't include people like self-employed me.

Got it.

Do you get why data which includes self-employed people would be more complete?

#162 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-07-17 05:41 PM | Reply

Still waiting For Boaz to admit he was wrong after being debunked on this thread.

Hold your breath.

#163 | Posted by boaz at 2021-07-17 05:43 PM | Reply

#3 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2021-07-16 09:52 AM | FLAG: Small HVAC company [employs 12 people] which services the store my wife manages as well recently installing a new Trane unit at our house, after talking to the young men who installed unit, learned that they make $150.00 an hour.

Amazing what one could make if willing to get a little training to better their life. You show me someone who has been working for years and is still making minimum wage and aIl say is that they are definitely doing something wrong and need to reevaluate their lives. Hell, I worked at McDonalds prior to entering the Air Force decades ago and after 90 days [proving my work ethic]/worth I received a raise.

BTW: moved out of home when I got the job and, with two other guys and I rented a two room apartment. { it had a bed couch ing the living room].

#164 | Posted by MSgt at 2021-07-17 05:45 PM | Reply

Consumers didn't petition American companies to move manufacturing overseas. Consumers didn't chase lower wages to boost their profits. Those decisions were made on Wall Street, and trickled down to Main Street.

#133 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Consumers told companies they would buy the biggest TV for the lowest price. It's always about more for less.

Companies competed by decreasing costs (attract more customers) while maintaining profit.

We, the American consumer, are absolutely part of the problem.

#165 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 05:46 PM | Reply

" My initial point was there's not that many good paying jobs with half the workforce at 35k and under."

And my point was median wages and median income are two different numbers.

Plus, as Snoofy pointed out, your definition of "household" is incorrect; it's only the related persons.

#166 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-07-17 05:46 PM | Reply

But we have dolts here who are shocked that 2+2=4.

#150 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Gracie and phester haven't commented here. No reason to drag them into it.

#167 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 05:48 PM | Reply

"Consumers told companies they would buy the biggest TV for the lowest price."

So what?

Unless you're saying we used to tell companies we would buy the smallest TV for the highest price, nothing changed, and therefore, it's not a dynamic in the equation.

Consumers have always wanted the most bang for the buck.

It's not like consumers just thought of that in 1975.

So get the eff outta here with that nonsense.

#168 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 05:51 PM | Reply

after talking to the young men who installed unit, learned that they make $150.00 an hour.

--------. That's more than the starting hourly rate for an attorney.

#169 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 05:51 PM | Reply

" The SSA has data on everyone earning wages except those paid under the table "

Yet those under-the-table folks are used in the denominator. Do you realize that automatically lowers the average, artificially?

#170 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-07-17 05:51 PM | Reply

"We, the American consumer, are absolutely part of the problem."

Why? We didn't move factories to China.

#171 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 05:52 PM | Reply

" they make $150.00 an hour."

Good catch. The company bills $150/hr. BIG difference.

#172 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-07-17 05:53 PM | Reply

nothing changed, and therefore, it's not a dynamic in the equation.

Of course it's a dynamic.

Companies gained a competitive edge by moving manufacturing to lower cost of the unit.

Others followed suit to mitigate the competitive edge.

So get the eff outta here with that nonsense.

#168 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

LOL it's not my fault you don't understand basic concepts.

#173 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 05:54 PM | Reply

"after talking to the young men who installed unit, learned that they make $150.00 an hour."

That is some Rain Man level economics right there.

"Hell, I worked at McDonalds prior to entering the Air Force decades ago and after 90 days [proving my work ethic]/worth I received a raise."

It's not like that any more. The America you worked in 40 years ago is gone.

#174 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 05:54 PM | Reply

Why? We didn't move factories to China.

#171 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Of course we didn't.

AHhh hell never mind. You're apparently day drinking today because you're not usually this stupid.

#175 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 05:55 PM | Reply

" The company bills $150/hr."

A longtime friend ran an ad agency, and told me his rule of thumb: workers must bill 3x their salary.

#176 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-07-17 05:55 PM | Reply

Minimum wage earners are never going to catch up to the point where they can afford rent to live alone or support a family.

It was a reality for about three decades.

1950s -1970s

Minimum wage allowed a man to support his entire family.

It's not going to ever happen
#35 | POSTED BY EBERLY: HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE as not a 'reality, back in 68 prior to joining the Air Force in that the minimum wage was $1.25 an hour [this was at Towson MD] and no one I ever met was raising a family on that - and BTW all of us working there were in our late teens except the store manager and asst manager and the same with the manning of his second store on Bel Air MD.

#177 | Posted by MSgt at 2021-07-17 05:57 PM | Reply

"Companies gained a competitive edge by moving manufacturing to lower cost of the unit.
Others followed suit to mitigate the competitive edge."

I don't dispute any of that.

I simply dispute companies did it altruistically because consumers begged them to do it.

Companies did it because they wanted higher margins. Full stop.

They didn't do it because consumers said the same thing we have been saying all along, which is "I'm not gonna pay a lot for that muffler!"

Nixon went to China, and with it, our middle class. Consumers didn't ask for that.

#178 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 05:58 PM | Reply

" The company bills $150/hr."

"A longtime friend ran an ad agency, and told me his rule of thumb: workers must bill 3x their salary"

And with two installers, they're each getting about 1/6th of $150/hr. Which is $25/hr. Which is about what a HVAC installer can expect to get.

Adjusted for inflation, it's not far from what MSGt made at Mickey D's.

Old people don't get it. That's a big part of the problem. Possibly the biggest.

#179 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 06:02 PM | Reply

I simply dispute companies did it altruistically because consumers begged them to do it.
Companies did it because they wanted higher margins. Full stop.

Who said anything about altruism? They didn't lower prices to save people money, they lowered prices to attract buyers looking to spend less.

Balance the cost of input with the consumer sticker price and you maintain margins while attracting customers with a more attractive price tag.

The easiest way to balance the equation is cutting labor costs, ie moving overseas.

#180 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 06:04 PM | Reply

"nothing changed, and therefore, it's not a dynamic in the equation.
Of course it's a dynamic."

If it's dynamic then you're saying it changed.

What changed? Consumers used to want less for our money, but after Nixon went to China, we did a 180 and started wanting more?

Come on.

I will grant you that the advent of consumer credit around that same time let consumers get more. But it also cost us more.

#181 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 06:08 PM | Reply

"The easiest way to balance the equation is cutting labor costs, ie moving overseas."

Except the macro equation doesn't balance when your consumer loses their job at the plant and now can only afford the now-cheaper items made by someone doing his old job for pennies on the dollar.

And thats why, Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households.

#182 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 06:11 PM | Reply

If it's dynamic then you're saying it changed.

It's part of THE dynamic. I'm not referring to price point being dynamic.

When did foreign produced goods really start flooding the US markets?

The US dominated global markets in the post-WWII period. By the 70's other countries had fully recovered and began becoming competitive. Couple that with ever increasing American consumerism and the move was practically inevitable.

usa.usembassy.de

#183 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 06:24 PM | Reply

"When did foreign produced goods really start flooding the US markets?"

When Nixon abd the GOP decided that it was better to do business with China than American unions.

#184 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 06:28 PM | Reply

Except the macro equation doesn't balance when your consumer loses their job at the plant and now can only afford the now-cheaper items made by someone doing his old job for pennies on the dollar.
And thats why, Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households.

#182 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Apparently it does balance because in practice we see that it has. Plus manufacturing is what, 10% of the US economy.

www.brookings.edu

What you're describing is the feed forward cycle that's driven wage gains into the crapper.

Also, how many corporations have that mindset? There aren't many Henry Fords anymore.

#185 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 06:29 PM | Reply

When Nixon abd the GOP decided that it was better to do business with China than American unions.

#184 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Hmmmm. Right.

Without Nixon and the GOP US corporations would have stayed here and just figured it all out? Remained competitive how, consumer altruism?

#186 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 06:30 PM | Reply

Competitive with whom?

The only way you can win a race to the bottom it by not participating in one.

#187 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 06:33 PM | Reply

It's just like how we used to have laws against usury in this country. But then with the Advent of Consumer Credit One of the Dakotas decided to repeal those laws to bring some jobs to their state. Within a few years every state had repealed those laws.

#188 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 06:34 PM | Reply

The only way you can win a race to the bottom it by not participating in one.

#187 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

So Nixon should have simply prevented imports?

#189 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 06:38 PM | Reply

And with two installers, they're each getting about 1/6th of $150/hr. Which is $25/hr. Which is about what a HVAC installer can expect to get.
Adjusted for inflation, it's not far from what MSGt made at Mickey D's.
Old people don't get it. That's a big part of the problem. Possibly the biggest.

#179 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2021-07-17 06:02 PM

This is exactly right. Most Trades people in non-union Jobs make about 25 bucks an hour. Some lower like 23 and some better like 32.00. Still all that means is most would struggle to rent a 2 bedroom apartment living paycheck to paycheck. Boaz saying entry level trades people getting 70k is a Joke. Apprentices make 14-18 bucks an hour. Meaning they aren't making 70K unless they work Tons and tons of overtime.

#190 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-17 07:18 PM | Reply

"So Nixon should have simply prevented imports?"

We should have done more to achieve a favorable balance of trade.

We should have pursued Wealth of Nations. Not Wealth of Multinational Corporations.

#191 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 07:36 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

-So Nixon should have simply prevented imports?

Snoofy doesn't know ----. He just needs to go back in time and blame people.

Regardless, minimum wage is never going to be a living wage.

I don't care that it once was.

Never again.

#192 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-17 07:40 PM | Reply

Regardless, minimum wage is never going to be a living wage.
I don't care that it once was.
Never again.
#192 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Eberly is morally opposed to minimum wage workers being able to afford to survive on their earnings.

How'd that happen?

Did consumers do that too, JPW?

#193 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 07:45 PM | Reply

We should have pursued Wealth of Nations. Not Wealth of Multinational Corporations.
#191 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

I agree.

But that's not what runs corporate board rooms. Greed, ego and -------- run corporate board rooms.

Which is why they would ruthlessly cut staffing to maintain their profit margins, bonuses and everything else while expecting other industries to pick up their slack.

#194 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 08:28 PM | Reply

Did consumers do that too, JPW?

#193 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Just another aspect of keeping running costs low.

Lobbyists make sure minimum wage doesn't move while they push for more productivity.

But that's a great logical fallacy you seem to be spooling up.

#195 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 08:29 PM | Reply

1975 was more or less when gains in wages stopped keeping pace with gains in productivity.

I'm not sure why you think consumers would willingly do that to themselves.

#196 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 09:28 PM | Reply

"But that's not what runs corporate board rooms. Greed, ego and -------- run corporate board rooms."

Don't you mean:
Consumers run board rooms?

#197 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 09:29 PM | Reply

Still waiting For Boaz to admit he was wrong after being debunked on this thread.
Hold your breath.

#163 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2021-07-17 05:43 PM

Basically you admit you were wrong about the salaries of people in trades.

#198 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-07-17 09:57 PM | Reply

Don't you mean:
Consumers run board rooms?

#197 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Don't be a Trumper.

#199 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 10:11 PM | Reply

You said consumers have some blame.

I put the overwhelming majority of the blame in those board rooms.

Maybe you could too.

#200 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 10:16 PM | Reply

-Eberly is morally opposed to minimum wage workers being able to afford to survive on their earnings.

How cute. Assigning me morality over stating a fact.

I'm not opposed to anything. It's just recognizing the economic reality.

You know ... ..facts and data.

Like global warming.

Denier ... .

#201 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-17 10:24 PM | Reply

Eberly,

Do you want minimum wage to be a living wage, like it once was (not that you care)?

Just the facts.

#202 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 10:39 PM | Reply

202

Absolutely. Our lives would be better if minimum wage were a living wage. It would solve many problems.

#203 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-17 10:47 PM | Reply

Your #192 sounded like you were choosing sides in the Fight For Fifteen. But I suppose you were saying it's a done deal.

And then you also said you didn't care that it once did all those good things, but apparent you want them back.

Wild Turkey?

#204 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 10:59 PM | Reply

You said consumers have some blame.

Correct. Operative emphasized.

I put the overwhelming majority of the blame in those board rooms.
Maybe you could too.

#200 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

They're not mutually exclusive.

#205 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 11:01 PM | Reply

They're different sized slices of the blame pie.
The corporate sized one is a lot bigger.

#206 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 11:06 PM | Reply

I haven't argued proportions.

I added an unmentioned cause to a list somebody else posted.

#207 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 11:11 PM | Reply

Just a question for those who believe in the 'living wage' promoted by the libbies/dems: You hire two people to do the same work/job possition. One is a single individual and the other has a wife and child.... now tell me about what you decide what to to pay a 'living wage'..........

Then tell me how a small business of 17 employees does so as the owner's family must live off any profit left over. from the business they started...........................................

#208 | Posted by MSgt at 2021-07-17 11:29 PM | Reply

One is a single individual and the other has a wife and child.... now tell me about what you decide what to to pay a 'living wage'..........

^
Pay the married one less. After all, their spouse can work too. If she's cute she can make a lot more...

#209 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-17 11:43 PM | Reply

Then tell me how a small business of 17 employees does so as the owner's family must live off any profit left over. from the business they started...........................................
#208 | POSTED BY MSGT

Take a guess how much Chipotle raised their prices after increasing wages to minimum of $15 an hour.

For a national chain.

Don't run. Answer.

#210 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-17 11:44 PM | Reply

My initial point was there's not that many good paying jobs with half the workforce at 35k and under."
And my point was median wages and median income are two different numbers.
Plus, as Snoofy pointed out, your definition of "household" is incorrect; it's only the related persons.

#166 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2021-07-17 05:46 PM | REPLY
My initial point was there's not that many good paying jobs with half the workforce at 35k and under."
And my point was median wages and median income are two different numbers.
Plus, as Snoofy pointed out, your definition of "household" is incorrect; it's only the related persons.

#166 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2021-07-17 05:46 PM

And Snoofy is wrong...maybe that's his definition but he's not the one collecting the data is he??

Household income, as defined by the U.S. Census Bureau, includes the gross cash income of all people ages 15 years or older occupying the same housing unit, regardless of how they are related, if at all. A single person occupying a dwelling alone also is considered a household.
Family income considers only households occupied by two or more people related by birth, marriage, or adoption.
Per capita income measures the income earned by each individual in a given area. Therefore, two-income earners in the same family or household are counted separately when measuring per capita income.

#211 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-07-18 12:09 AM | Reply

And my point was median wages and median income are two different numbers.

#166 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2021-07-17 05:46 PM | FLAG:
(CHOOSE)

Okay, so what's the difference?

#212 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-07-18 12:17 AM | Reply

" Okay, so what's the difference?"

This is where you do some study. I'll even point you in the right direction: There are other types of income than wages.

Your assignment: find and list five.

#213 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-07-18 12:22 AM | Reply

-Your #192 sounded like you were choosing sides in the Fight For Fifteen.

No it didn't.

Your stupid ... .and a ------- troll.

#214 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-18 12:25 AM | Reply

"No it didn't."

It did to me.
You were drawing a line in the sand.

Got any more emotional responses?
I won't bother asking for rational ones.

#215 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-18 12:32 AM | Reply

"Your stupid ... .and a ------- troll."

Jim Beam Black?

#216 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-07-18 12:41 AM | Reply

No.

But close ... .

#217 | Posted by eberly at 2021-07-18 12:58 AM | Reply

But close ... .

#217 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Oh God. I'm so sorry.

Eberly, are you ok?

#218 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-18 01:12 AM | Reply

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