Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, July 20, 2021

Post-vaccination Infections Come in 2 Different Flavors. Lumping all breakthroughs together, regardless of symptoms, miscasts what our COVID-19 vaccines can do.



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From the author:

Katherine J. Wu, Ph.D.
Once more, for the people in the back: Not all infections result in disease. As we work to vaccinate the world, against a tide of misinformation, that distinction is more important than ever.

#1 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2021-07-20 09:28 PM | Reply

Any anecdote that seems to own the libs is counted as a breakthrough case.

#2 | Posted by Zed at 2021-07-21 09:07 AM | Reply

As I posted in response to a link you posted in another thread, this doctor agrees mass vaccination is key to getting out of this pandemic but just not with the vaccines currently being used. Do the type of vaccines he recommends exist?

#4 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2021-07-21 10:21 AM | Reply

Such nonsense. All of it. Guessing, fear, hope, pushing what one thinks over another.

I'll stick with what we actually know. Thank you very much.

#5 | Posted by YAV at 2021-07-21 10:23 AM | Reply

PS as has been pointed out the Delta variant developed in India before they started vaccinating anyone.

#6 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2021-07-21 10:25 AM | Reply

Delta, Alpha, Lambda, B. 1.351 (S.Africa), every variant out there I know of all developed in unvaccinated populations.
We may see one develop in a highly vaccinated population, but at this time, it hasn't happened.

#7 | Posted by YAV at 2021-07-21 10:32 AM | Reply

We may see one develop in a highly vaccinated population, but at this time, it hasn't happened.


A variant will surely arise in vaccinated/immune populations, but it's not going to be an issue for that population.

Coronaviruses don't mutate fast enough to completely overcome immunity that's already present. They don't have a large enough quasi species cloud to hedge their bets either.

Which is why it will become an endemic seasonal illness like the other five human coronaviruses, passing around immune people and causing mild URT illness until it gets lucky and happens on someone with waning or absent immunity, where it will be cause more symptoms but still not like what we see now.

#8 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-21 10:38 AM | Reply

A variant will surely arise in vaccinated/immune populations, but it's not going to be an issue for that population.

I agree. I tend to think of this as a function of our inability to drive R0 below 1, which mediation methods include getting everyone we can vaccinated around the planet, ASAP. The more time the more variants, the more variants, the more likely one will be suited to make it through the vaccine defense. I don't view it as the vaccinated population being a breeding ground for virus mutation. We're not seeing the communicability needed in the vaccinated for that to occur. At least I haven't seen any evidence.

Your point on the quasi species cloud is so important, too.

Your thoughts, JPW?

#9 | Posted by YAV at 2021-07-21 10:54 AM | Reply

damn italics close tag.

#10 | Posted by YAV at 2021-07-21 10:54 AM | Reply

We were warned in the beginning it would take years to develop a proper vaccine... but until then it's Operation Warp Speed. Fastest vaccine rollout ever! (Most of us will live to regret this)

This is inaccurate and misinformed. Coronavirus vaccines and mRNA technology have been worked on for decades. The development of the vaccine wasn't what was rushed, it was the production and dissemination that was done rapidly, along with the FDA Emergency Authorization.

The key in your sentence is "rollout" - which is not development.

The unvaccinated will be better suited to fight that battle when it comes,

That's just plain nonsense.

#13 | Posted by YAV at 2021-07-21 11:29 AM | Reply

See this article on the way out of Covid pandemic.

See this:

The COVID-19 pandemic has attracted a swarm of vocal contrarians like little else in the recent past. These public commentators, often bedazzled with advanced degrees, have painted themselves as brave mavericks escaping from the mainstream herd to denounce the cataclysmic consequences of public health measures. The latest example of this phenomenon comes in the form of Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche, who recently published an alarming manifesto. In it, Dr. Bossche makes a number of incorrect or exaggerated claims about the use of mass vaccination during a pandemic and urges international health authorities to stop the current crop of COVID-19 vaccines or else risk unleashing "a global catastrophe without equal." This is scary stuff, but it's all quite misguided.

So there's that.

#15 | Posted by REDIAL at 2021-07-21 12:21 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1


As a general rule, you're best not listening to people giving advice from a website that's their own name. They're almost always quacks.

In any case, much of what he says (said) is garbage.

Mostly because he treats immune escape as a black and white issue. Immune escape doesn't render all antibodies unable to bind. Just a handful of clones that specifically target that portion of the protein (called an epitope). Even a partial neutralization phenotype is better than no neutralization and non-neutralizing antibodies still have other functions to limit disease.

Which leads us to issues of the vaccine and cytotoxic T cells (CTLs). Yes, balanced activation of both the B cell (antibody) and CTL (T cell) arms is a long standing goal of vaccinologists. That's why live attenuated vaccines (ie FluMist or Sabin polio vaccine) are preferred when possible. The actual infection produces a more balanced response.

But guess what happens when you have partial protection from a vaccine then get infected-it acts as an attenuated vaccine booster! The data out there doesn't suggest ADE is occurring follow COVID vaccination, a worry that was based on what we know about other veterinary coronavirus vaccines. We would see this manifest as more severe disease in vaccinated or immune individuals compared to non-immune individuals. We're seeing the opposite.

So your partial antibody immunity knocks the infection down while the low level infection induces memory B cells (antibody) responses and T cell (these are induced by the mRNA vaccines) responses, which updates the repertoire of antibodies and T cells in circulation. This is also pretty much what would happen if you were infected twice, with the primary difference being the wider breadth of the antibody response following infection vs vaccination.

His assertion that the only (best) way to end this pandemic by natural infection is absurd and flies in the face of everything we know about about vaccines and their mechanism of action. It's also an incredibly dangerous thing to say when there is a significant proportion of the populace seeking information on the topic.

#16 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-21 12:50 PM | Reply

It's not just about antibodies.

#17 | Posted by jpw at 2021-07-21 12:52 PM | Reply

#16 - great post, JPW.

#18 | Posted by YAV at 2021-07-21 01:03 PM | Reply

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