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Sunday, August 01, 2021

I am angry that the tragic scenes of prior surges are being played out yet again, but now with ICUs primarily filled with patients who have chosen not to be vaccinated.

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I cannot help but recoil as if I've been slapped in the face when my ICU patient tells me they didn't get vaccinated because they "just didn't get around to it." Although such individuals do not consider themselves anti-vaxxers, their inaction itself is a decision - a decision to not protect themselves or their families, to fill a precious ICU bed, to let new variants flourish, and to endanger the health care workers and immunosuppressed people around them. Their inaction is a decision to let this pandemic continue to rage.

I have no way to comfort my rightfully outraged transplant patients who contracted COVID-19 after isolating for over a year and getting fully vaccinated as soon as they could. With angry tears, these patients tell me it's not fair that there are people who are choosing to endanger both themselves and the vulnerable people around them. They feel betrayed by their fellow citizens and they are bitter and angry. I cannot blame them.

I am at a loss to understand how anyone can look at these past months of the pandemic - more than 600,000 lives lost in the U.S. and more than 4 million worldwide - and not believe it's real or take it seriously. But the unhappy truth is that there are people who do not. They did not in the beginning and many are doubling down now.

I thought when this pandemic began that we were all in this fight together, engaged in a war against a common enemy. Now, I painfully realize: Perhaps we were never on the same side and we never had a common enemy. Perhaps the war has been among ourselves all along.

Of course this "war" has been political from Day 1 and before it's over many more of us will lose more than our freedom. People will needlessly lose their lives while Republican leaders continue to misconstrue public safety measures as being antithetical to personal liberty.

Nothing is more antithetical to personal liberty than the combo of mass debilitating sickness and death.

#1 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-01 04:59 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Refuse medical care to the unvaxxed. Let them die.

#2 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-08-01 05:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

What a p$&#y. She should stop being scared.

Madbomber

#3 | Posted by jpw at 2021-08-01 07:06 PM | Reply

What I don't understand is that if these people do not trust medical professionals, why do they seek help from medical professionals in a hospital?

#4 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2021-08-01 07:47 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#4 It's more or less for the same reason there are no atheists in foxholes.

#5 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-01 08:13 PM | Reply

What I don't understand is that if these people do not trust medical professionals, why do they seek help from medical professionals in a hospital?

#4 | POSTED BY GONOLES92

If you listen to this doctor and to others, many of them seek professional help on their terms. That is, that the doctors and the virus kowtow to whatever their particular and ignorant fantasies may be.

Apparently, not a few of them die not really knowing what killed them. Because it can't be COVID.

#6 | Posted by Zed at 2021-08-01 10:11 PM | Reply

Some say love is the seventh wave.

#7 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-02 01:14 AM | Reply

Freedom is messy. If they have open eyes about what they are doing, I can't really see any ethical way to force them to be inoculated.

It's really unfortunate, I know people like this. They are often decent and otherwise intelligent people, but they have a mortal fear of vaccines.

It's almost like humans are hard wired to fear vaccines, and the trust it takes to allow a pathogenic concoction to be injected is a very hard sell.

Oh well, I guess they just have to take their chances. I can't work up the venom and outrage that so many here feel toward them.

I hope they all come out ok.....

But they Won't.

#8 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-08-02 02:40 AM | Reply

They feel betrayed by their fellow citizens and they are bitter and angry. I cannot blame them.

That's what selfish ------ do best.

The GQP made wearing masks political.

The GQP made social distancing political.

The GQP made the vaccine political.

And they still are.

They are a cancer on society.

It's almost like humans are hard wired to fear vaccines, and the trust it takes to allow a pathogenic concoction to be injected is a very hard sell.

Can you imagine the courage it took the soldiers at Valley Forge to be innoculated against smallpox while it was actively wiping out their friends in large numbers. Then they cut you and put live virus into the wound. Today's magats are not fit to wipe those soldiers asses.

#9 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-08-02 07:22 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

why do they seek help from medical professionals in a hospital?

#4 | POSTED BY GONOLES92

Because they finally realize they do not have a choice anymore.

I had the same discussion over the weekend with an anti vaxxer.

"I don't know what's in it." Do you know all the ingredients in a Big Mac? "No". Did you look up what is in it? "No."

"I see you still can catch the virus with the vaccine. So why get it?" Did you look at the mortality statistics for vaccinated vs non-vaccinated covid patients? "No."

They are willfully ignorant and unwilling to do any research or listen to what anyone says.

If they did not represent a threat to children and people with compromised immune systems I'd say let them drown in their own lung pus.

#10 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-08-02 07:30 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Another hot, sexy, frothy lather. Fake doctor is in his way to share something he learned from CNN.

#11 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-08-02 08:14 AM | Reply

It's almost like humans are hard wired to fear vaccines,

Hardly.

There weren't these types of problems in the 50s when they were eradicating polio.

But then again, back then idiots like RFK didn't have the ability to widely spread disinformation for a living.

and the trust it takes to allow a pathogenic concoction to be injected is a very hard sell.

LOL this is trying so hard to sound dire that it sounds hilarious. Like a low budget horror film.

#12 | Posted by jpw at 2021-08-02 09:20 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Another hot, sexy, frothy lather. Fake doctor is in his way to share something he learned from CNN.

#11 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

Bellrung is making sure he's the top contender for the DR Idiot of the Year Award.

#13 | Posted by jpw at 2021-08-02 09:21 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

What I don't understand is that if these people do not trust medical professionals, why do they seek help from medical professionals in a hospital?

#4 | POSTED BY GONOLES92

Because when the panic sets in when their brains are screaming "give me oxygen" but they can't breath survival mode kicks in.

#14 | Posted by jpw at 2021-08-02 09:23 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Let them die.

We need to stop letting hospitals fill up with people like this. There are other patients who need care, oxygen, etc.

Why should fully vaccinated people not be able to get care because idiots like these get sick?

#15 | Posted by Sycophant at 2021-08-02 10:50 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#15

Maybe certain hospitals should stop accepting non-vaccinated covid-infected patients by invoking their own business freedom to keep their other more lucrative services viable along with protecting front-line workers from the possibility of breakthrough infections from the non-vaxxed.

Vaccinated people should have the right to seek hospital treatment inside facilities free from covid- denying anti vaxxers, right? I'm sure GOP governors like DeSantis would have no problem with the vaccinated exercising their "freedom" to steer clear of the non-vaxxed, correct?

#16 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-02 11:06 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

MAGA? FOAD!

#17 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2021-08-02 01:01 PM | Reply

Can't turn them away. MAGA is a pre-existing condition.

#18 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-08-03 08:47 AM | Reply

Not to mention people here are advocating turning away minorities that vote Democrat but have a general distrust in the US government.
media1.tenor.com

#19 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-08-03 08:49 AM | Reply

#18-#19

This isn't about politics, it's about public health and the ability of for-profit healthcare providers to maximize their profitability as any business has the right to do.

Covid patients means less revenue from other lucrative practices/procedures that many hospitals prefer. Eliminate treatment for covid patients, maximize more profitable treatments and procedures. That equals FREEDOM, right?

#20 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-03 08:56 AM | Reply

"This isn't about politics" says the professional political hack, on a forum dedicated to political news.

Bruh lol

#21 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-08-03 09:05 AM | Reply

Up yours Sitz. I'm making the point that such a DECISION by a for-profit hospital is NOT ABOUT POLITICS idiot.

The fact you can't discern this distinction says more about you than it does about me. What a moron.

#22 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-03 09:07 AM | Reply

Hospitals don't give a fkcu about what party their patients belong to or which candidates they vote for. Does this really have to be explained to you?

For-profit hospitals only care about PROFITS, not politics which have no effect on their bottom lines and profitability.

#23 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-03 09:10 AM | Reply

#22 | POSTED BY TONYROMA AT 2021-08-03 09:07 AM | FLAG:

You must have a huge plonk list. It's not hospitals looking to turn people away. It is fellow Democrats here wanting hospitals to turn people away, and it's definitely based on politics.

#24 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-08-03 09:38 AM | Reply

There is no discussion about hospitals turning people away.

It violates the ethical standards of the profession and would cost every professional in the building their license to practice.

It's a stupid conversation. Let it go.

#25 | Posted by jpw at 2021-08-03 09:51 AM | Reply

If you don't have the vaccine and it is safe to do so you are really stupid and deserve death. No other way to put it.

#26 | Posted by byrdman at 2021-08-03 10:00 AM | Reply

You must have a huge plonk list.

#24 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

Too lazy to check for yourself before sticking your gangrenous foot firmly down your gaping maw?

sitzkrieg, 5 plonks

tonyroma, 2 plonks

As JPW correctly notes, the entire topic was a thought analogy using the same illogic expressed by Republican politicians to suppress public mitigation efforts by invoking individuals "freedom" as the reason for doing so.

I disagree with JPW on any hospital's right to determine which services they offer to the public. It is not against the law to limit services, nor would it cost any physician his/her license. Case in point - Catholic hospitals do not offer abortions, period. A non-public hospital can decide which treatments they offer without any threat to their licenses. Deciding not to treat covid patients would seem to fall under the same category. (Again, I'm not advocating that any hospital do so, just arguing that hypothetically they should have the right to based on their own corporate personhood "freedom".)

#27 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-03 10:34 AM | Reply

Suck ----- deny people health care. Period. That's something Nazis do, not Americans.

People who advocate such behavior are evil and have lost their moral center.

#28 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-08-03 10:34 AM | Reply

Suck ----- deny people health care. Period.

Do you understand that the inundation of non-vaccinated covid patients currently filling hospitals are denying others access to non-covid care that they need because these hospitals have to stop other services because of covid's virulence? Some people might die or suffer health complications because they can't get into an ER due to non-vaxxed covid-infected taking up all the space.

The argument is less about denying people access to healthcare, it's about making the non-vaxxed realize their own decisions are negatively affecting others outside of themselves with repercussions to others' rights and freedoms they have no right to compromise, yet here they are doing just that.

It's a person responsibility argument/discussion. There have to be consequences for bad decisions when it costs nothing but time to make the right one that protects everyone and likely causes no harm to do so.

#29 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-03 10:46 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It is not against the law to limit services, nor would it cost any physician his/her license. Case in point - Catholic hospitals do not offer abortions, period.

A person showing up at the ED with respiratory distress and O2 in the 80s isn't going to be viewed through the same lens as an abortion.

Medical professionals would be obligated to render care in that case.

The only way in which this conversation becomes close to reality is in a triage situation where hospitals turn patients away because there simply aren't the resources or space to treat them. That's it.

#30 | Posted by jpw at 2021-08-03 11:04 AM | Reply

A person showing up at the ED with respiratory distress and O2 in the 80s isn't going to be viewed through the same lens as an abortion.

Understood. Seeing as how this was hypothetical to begin with, my contention would be that the anti-covid-receiving hospital ED would then transfer that patient to another facility for ongoing treatment if they chose to maintain a covid-free ICU to take care of non-covid patients and to perform in-house surgeries/procedures - for profitability reasons - that have to cease when a hospital is jammed with covid infected patients.

And further, such a hospital would publicly broadcast "If you think that you have covid DO NOT COME to our ED. We do not inpatient covid cases and if you're infected, you will be transferred to another facility."

#31 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-03 11:18 AM | Reply

"...and to perform in-house surgeries/procedures - for profitability reasons"

Kind or ironic seeing you stand up for those guys......LOL

#32 | Posted by eberly at 2021-08-03 11:37 AM | Reply

Kind or ironic seeing you stand up for those guys......LOL

It's a hypothetical analogy using the same logic of the pro-freedom folks - allowing hospital corporations the "freedom" to pursue their own economic interests as their "right" in the same manner individuals cannot be compelled by government/public welfare to vaccinate themselves so that a deadly virus stops spreading.

I'm not an advocate of such a position whatsoever. Just pointing out what an extension of that logic would look like should a hospital decide to do what certain Republicans claim are the rights of individuals. Corporations are people too, correct?

#33 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-03 11:54 AM | Reply

-I'm not an advocate of such a position whatsoever. Just pointing out what an extension of that logic would look like should a hospital decide to do what certain Republicans claim are the rights of individuals.

Yeah, well we could have had this argument over the uninsured, smokers, fatties, druggies, people who don't wear seatbelts, etc....

Actually, we have had this argument....and for the most part, we acknowledge the political/legal reality that hospitals are burdened with all sort of patients they don't want.

#34 | Posted by eberly at 2021-08-03 12:15 PM | Reply

The GOP made it impossible for hospital systems to turn patient's away for lack of payment
They did this knowing the insured would get stuck with the bill, thus punishing the personally responsible and rewarding their slacker base of freedumberz with a free ride

#35 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2021-08-03 12:32 PM | Reply

Well, 3 or 4% or them will be dead soon.

#36 | Posted by jakester at 2021-08-03 12:33 PM | Reply

-The GOP made it impossible for hospital systems to turn patient's away for lack of payment

how?

#37 | Posted by eberly at 2021-08-03 12:34 PM | Reply

"and for the most part, we acknowledge the political/legal reality that hospitals are burdened with all sort of patients they don't want."

Public hospitals, I believe. Private hospitals can still turn people away in a non-emergency setting.

Same with public schools vs private schools. And that's why vouchers won't work. Private schools will never accept those problem students, voucher or not.

#38 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-03 12:34 PM | Reply

my contention would be

Contend all you want. A patient wouldn't be transferred until if and when they are stabilized.

Which means you're not having a COVID free hospital.

And further, such a hospital would publicly broadcast "If you think that you have covid DO NOT COME to our ED. We do not inpatient covid cases and if you're infected, you will be transferred to another facility."

#31 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

See above.

It's a dead conversation, Tony. Let it go.

#39 | Posted by jpw at 2021-08-03 12:58 PM | Reply

-The GOP made it impossible for hospital systems to turn patient's away for lack of payment

how?

The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA)[1] is an act of the United States Congress, passed in 1986 as part of the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA). It requires hospital Emergency Departments that accept payments from Medicare to provide an appropriate medical screening examination (MSE) to anyone seeking treatment for a medical condition, regardless of citizenship, legal status, or ability to pay. Participating hospitals may not transfer or discharge patients needing emergency treatment except with the informed consent or stabilization of the patient or when their condition requires transfer to a hospital better equipped to administer the treatment.[1]

EMTALA applies to "participating hospitals." The statute defines participating hospitals as those that accept payment from the Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) under the Medicare program.[2] Because there are very few hospitals that do not accept Medicare, the law applies to nearly all hospitals.

en.wikipedia.org

President Ronald Reagan signed the act into law.

#40 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-03 01:33 PM | Reply

40

Yeah, I knew about that but are you suggesting that law was an attempt to stick it to patients rather than help them?

You would prefer we obliterate that and let hospitals do whatever they want? throw COBRA out with it as well?

#41 | Posted by eberly at 2021-08-03 02:05 PM | Reply

Not me. I was just answering the question you presented based on the quotation cited before it.

The legislation was passed by a GOP-controlled Congress and signed into law by a GOP President - not a criticism, just a fact. The only problem I have with the law is it made no provisions for the government to actually PAY for emergency services of the uninsured, thereby creating the financial death spiral of overcharging - passing on costs to actual insureds - bill collectors and medical bankruptcies up until ACA was passed 35 years later.

#42 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-03 02:14 PM | Reply

So what? Just let em' die? Is that your answer?

Somehow, I never saw you as such an ------- before now.

Learn something new every day.

#43 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-08-03 02:54 PM | Reply

So what? Just let em' die? Is that your answer?

Show me where I said anything close to that. Trying understanding that the entire topic was a hypothetical analogy extending the personal freedom argument to hospitals if they acted the same way as those individuals, because they decided profits were more important than treating covid patients.

This does not currently exist in real life and no one is advocating that it should. The argument was made to highlight the abdication of communal responsibility exhibited by those who refuse to vaccinate themselves nor practice mitigation because they have the freedom not to.

#44 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-03 03:01 PM | Reply

At this point if you are able to take the vaccine and haven't you are essentially aiding and abetting the enemy during a war.

#45 | Posted by MBlue at 2021-08-03 07:54 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

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