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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Friday, August 20, 2021

The FBI has found scant evidence that the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was the result of an organized plot to overturn the presidential election result, according to four current and former law enforcement officials.

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...Though federal officials have arrested more than 570 alleged participants, the FBI at this point believes the violence was not centrally coordinated by far-right groups or prominent supporters of then-President Donald Trump, according to the sources, who have been either directly involved in or briefed regularly on the wide-ranging investigations.

"Ninety to ninety-five percent of these are one-off cases," said a former senior law enforcement official with knowledge of the investigation. "Then you have five percent, maybe, of these militia groups that were more closely organized. But there was no grand scheme with Roger Stone and Alex Jones and all of these people to storm the Capitol and take hostages."...


#1 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-08-20 03:58 PM | Reply

Operative phrases...

... The FBI has found ...
... the FBI at this point ...

The investigators are still working their way up from the bottom. It is not yet known where any future evidence the FBI finds may lead them...

But for now, there doesn't seem to be any obvious high-level coordination, according to the article's reporting.


#2 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-08-20 04:38 PM | Reply

"But there was no grand scheme with Roger Stone and Alex Jones and all of these people to storm the Capitol and take hostages."

^
"I Know Nothing."

That's how Know-Nothings operate.

Trumpers are basically the same people with the same grievances and the same agenda as the political party of the same name in the 1850s.

#3 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-20 04:58 PM | Reply

But so far prosecutors have steered clear of more serious, politically-loaded charges that the sources said had been initially discussed by prosecutors, such as seditious conspiracy or racketeering.

------ cowards

And they will all be shocked when it happens again

The biggest problem facing our nation is a lack of consequences and justice

#4 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-08-20 05:05 PM | Reply

#4 To get convictions you need 12 people to agree. Good luck with 30% of the jury pool being Nazi sympathizers.

The DoJ needs to get hundreds of convictions/guilty pleas so the thumpers start getting pissed that they go to jail, but their leaders walk.
That is when the DOJ needs to go for the big fish. Give them time.

The exception is the crimes that are near their statute of limitations, like Trump's election bribe.

#5 | Posted by bored at 2021-08-20 05:17 PM | Reply

The biggest problem facing our nation is a lack of consequences and justice
#4 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS

We even made Social Justice Warrior into an insult.

#6 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-20 05:33 PM | Reply

Does it matter if it was "coordinated"? The criminal activity and ensuing deaths still resulted.

#7 | Posted by moder8 at 2021-08-20 05:37 PM | Reply

Operative phrases: according to four current and former law enforcement officials.
Exactly how many are current of the four, and how many are former?

according to the sources, who have been either directly involved in or briefed regularly
Sources? The four we have to presume? Again, how many of these sources are current, how many are former, and how many were directly involved, and how many were briefed? What was the need to be briefed?

Another report on the Reuters release put it this way: "Reuters interviewed four unnamed FBI officials familiar (not involved) with the agency's probe into the insurrection. The qualification is, to me, important.

"Ninety to ninety-five percent of these are one-off cases," said a former senior law enforcement official with knowledge of the investigation. Again, wtf does "knowledge of" mean?

Also not sure anyone said everyone there was involved and was in on a plan, but the Proud Boys said, they had a plan to whip up the 'normies'. A plan to use them as cover and confusion while they execute a plan, even that plan is being done by 5-10% is damning. Plus we still have two pipe bombs deliberate placed.

This Reuters article seems like a deliberate spinning by people with an unsavory agenda.

#8 | Posted by YAV at 2021-08-20 06:38 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"We even made Social Justice Warrior into an insult"

First time I heard social justice used in a negative manner it was Glenn Beck telling people to leave their church if their churches says they support social justice.

This was hilarious since the Mormons have been saying they support social justice for decades.

#9 | Posted by Tor at 2021-08-20 06:50 PM | Reply

FWIW:

emptywheel
@emptywheel

Alright: I think I can prove that this Reuters story is nonsense.

It's not UNTRUE, but it doesn't understand what it's reporting.

Reuters sources didn't think to tell the journalists that DOJ is already treating about 20 Jan 6 defendants as terrorists. That really guts any credibility it might have.

Article:

Reuters Doesn't Mention Terrorism When Claiming DOJ Won't Charge Serious Offenses in the January 6 Investigation

www.emptywheel.net

#10 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2021-08-20 08:03 PM | Reply

"This Reuters article seems like a deliberate spinning by people with an unsavory agenda."

Yes, it reminded me of Barr's mischaracterization of the Mueller report before anyone had seen it.

#11 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2021-08-20 08:05 PM | Reply

"Does it matter if it was "coordinated"? "

A ragtag bunch of characters some dressed up like buffalos and ---- is a lot less of a threat than an organized group of people coordinating their efforts.

That is why.

#12 | Posted by jakester at 2021-08-20 08:27 PM | Reply

"Also not sure anyone said everyone there was involved and was in on a plan, but the Proud Boys said, they had a plan to whip up the 'normies'. A plan to use them as cover and confusion while they execute a plan, even that plan is being done by 5-10% is damning."

Yes, that is one of the points Wheeler makes in her article:

It's true that the Proud Boys are not known to have had a detailed plan describing who would move where in the Capitol. But it's also true that both before and after the riot, the Proud Boys discussed mobilizing the "normies," because normies have no adrenalin control. And the Proud Boys' success at doing this is what made the initial assault on the West side of the Capitol work (and therefore the attack generally). The Proud Boys weren't ordering the 1,000 rioters what to do at each step (though probably 100 people at the riot had some interaction with the Proud Boys), but they did give the riot a kind of structure that was crucial to its success.

#13 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2021-08-20 08:38 PM | Reply

"A ragtag bunch of characters some dressed up like buffalos and ---- is a lot less of a threat than an organized group of people coordinating their efforts."
That is why.

Yes and no. The Proud Boys intended to to use that ragtag bunch of characters to their advantage. When mob mentality takes over a crowd, it can be just as dangerous as an organized group with a plan. Even more so if the organized group's plan was to whip up the crowd and use the ensuing adrenalin rush of that ragtag bunch along with many others to create the very scene Trump predicted: "It's going to be wild!"

What is "Mob Mentality?"

1. Contagion Theory (Crowd Frenzy)

Crowds easily become uncontrolled, wild, and frenzied. In this state, they can exert a hypnotic impact that results in unreasonable and emotionally charged behavior among the members. For example, with mob mentality, superstitions can evolve from a misconception or rumor between a small group of people and escalate quickly.

arraybc.com

If you review the comments that people like Flynn, Bannon and Stone were making before the insurrection, it's clear they were anticipating something wild indeed.

#14 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2021-08-20 08:55 PM | Reply

On January 5, as thousands of Trump fans, many of them armed, began streaming into D.C., Bannon told his podcast audience, "All hell will break loose tomorrow. It will be quite extraordinarily different. All I can say is strap in. Tomorrow is game day. So many people said, Man, if I was in a revolution I would be in Washington.' Well, this is your time in history."

newrepublic.com

#15 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2021-08-20 09:22 PM | Reply

A ragtag bunch of characters some dressed up like buffalos and ---- is a lot less of a threat than an organized group of people coordinating their efforts.
That is why.

#12 | POSTED BY JAKESTER

Irrelevant.

Why do people incessantly try to downplay 1/6?

#16 | Posted by jpw at 2021-08-20 10:28 PM | Reply

@#12 ... A ragtag bunch of characters some dressed up like buffalos and ---- is a lot less of a threat than an organized group of people coordinating their efforts. ...

I remain to be convinced that the January 6 insurrection attempt was just a "ragtag bunch of characters."

There does appear to be significant tactical coordination.

The unanswered question is whether there was strategic coordination.

#17 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-08-20 10:45 PM | Reply

DHS Memo: Capitol Attackers Plotted in Advance www.thedailybeast.com

The article also discusses the Reuters report.

Link to the memo: propertyofthepeople.org

#18 | Posted by et_al at 2021-08-20 11:13 PM | Reply

"I remain to be convinced that the January 6 insurrection attempt was just a "ragtag bunch of characters."

When the leader is dressed like a buffalo and howls and most were unarmed, I think it's safe to say just that, actually.

#19 | Posted by jakester at 2021-08-20 11:20 PM | Reply

"When the leader is dressed like a buffalo and howls"

When you put it that way, it does sound a bit like the Boston Tea Party.

Just some freedom loving Patriots, expressing their Different Opinion.

#20 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-20 11:52 PM | Reply

"FBI finds scant evidence"

How much evidence is needed?

#21 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-20 11:55 PM | Reply

#19

The leader of the insurrection was and is the twice impeached Buffoon.

The face of the insurrection is dressed like a buffalo because his clown suit makes for great theater.

Most were unarmed but there were more than you probably think. See page 3, category "Weapons" of the memo linked at 18.

#22 | Posted by et_al at 2021-08-21 12:25 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#19

The leader of the insurrection was and is the twice impeached Buffoon.

The face of the insurrection is dressed like a buffalo because his clown suit makes for great theater.

Most were unarmed but there were more than you probably think. See page 3, category "Weapons" of the memo linked at 18.

#23 | Posted by et_al at 2021-08-21 12:25 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

@#19 ... When the leader is dressed like a buffalo ...

Why do you presume that person was the leader.

Serious question.

thx.

#24 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-08-21 12:36 AM | Reply

@#22 ... Most were unarmed ...

That depends upon one's definition of "unarmed."

Does a physical object (animate or not, but let's say animate) moving against you count as armament?

Asking for a friend...

#25 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-08-21 12:40 AM | Reply

Yes, NW twice.

#26 | Posted by jpw at 2021-08-21 12:54 AM | Reply

#24 - he was treated as such.

But I concede perhaps he wasn't their leader. If he wasn't, who was? Surely are wicked and dangerous mob that commands such fear and pants pissing had a leader there.

#27 | Posted by jakester at 2021-08-21 01:04 AM | Reply

Those guys were idiots. And yet progressives feared them to the extreme that they think Mr. Buffalo and friends were going to take over the country. I find that funny.

#28 | Posted by jakester at 2021-08-21 01:07 AM | Reply

If the USA can be taken over by a handful of numb nuts like these, maybe we deserve to be taken over.

#29 | Posted by jakester at 2021-08-21 01:09 AM | Reply

#29 Agreed those 911 hijackers were no threat either. Tourists really.

#30 | Posted by bored at 2021-08-21 01:55 AM | Reply

they think Mr. Buffalo and friends were going to take over the country. I find that funny.

What I find funny is your absurd representation of reality.

Idiot.

#31 | Posted by jpw at 2021-08-21 01:59 AM | Reply

JAKESTER

"Surely are wicked and dangerous mob that commands such fear and pants pissing had a leader there."

It was Mike Flynn ~~ behind the bleachers.

#32 | Posted by Twinpac at 2021-08-21 05:15 AM | Reply

No khigh level coordination? Hilarious! The President of the United States was orchestrating it. I don't know who these "four current and former law enforcement officials" but they have their iown agenda which has no connection to the truth. Coincidences like hundreds of people descending on the Capital, all at the same time, all with the intention of invading it and hunting down elected officials because they were going to certify a free and fair election is just not believable.

#33 | Posted by danni at 2021-08-21 05:37 AM | Reply

Why do people incessantly try to downplay 1/6?

Because it's not what you liberals are trying to make it out to be.

Coincidences like hundreds of people descending on the Capital(It's called a protest, liberals do them all the time), all at the same time (again, liberals do them all the time), all with the intention of invading it(bullshit, but having it there is the intent) and hunting down elected officials (if the elected officials were there, confrontation was the goal, but I doubt it was by the entire group. Having elected officials answer to the people they represent get far scarier if the people actually show it. That's a feature in our Republic, not a bug.) because they were going to certify a free and fair election (debatable whether it was "free and fair", but ok) is just not believable. (Your whole premise, when looked at with intelligence, is unbelievable.

This was no concerted effort by anyone or group to overthrow the U.S. government. Maybe to disrupt the current preceedings, but not to overthrow the government. The more this overreach and far fetched fantasy by liberals is thought about, the more stupider it sounds. Were there people who took it too far? Yes and most of them have been arrested and are being dealt with. But to take it to the extremes like most of you idiots on here, just shows to the rest of the country how partisan and crazy you far leftists are and you look stupid in front of most normal thinking people.

This country is being destroyed by the extremes on both sides.

#34 | Posted by boaz at 2021-08-21 07:32 AM | Reply

"This was no concerted effort by anyone or group to overthrow the U.S. government."

Their stated intention was to prevent the certification of a free and fair election and pretend Trump won and let him serve four moore years. That is an attempted coup BOAZ wheyther you like it or not. And, for God's saKE man, quit pretending it was only liberals saying that, it's simply a bald faced lie. Plenty of Conservatives were also saying it. Hell, the rioters themselves were saying it as they were doing it. The President, who promised to be there with them was instead watching it on TV in the White HOuse while celebrating it with his filthy family and his Fascist supporters.

#35 | Posted by danni at 2021-08-21 07:41 AM | Reply

That is an attempted coup BOAZ wheyther you like it or not.

No Danni. Disrupting a meeting is not the same thing as a coup.

Whatever. No one outside the hardest core liberals, which is what we have on this site, believes any of this coup garbage. And yes, I know it's reported on by MSNBC and CNN, but they are the hardest of the hard core liberals. I mean, YOU get your news from them and NPR..

#36 | Posted by boaz at 2021-08-21 07:48 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

This was an attempted coup. Period.

And shove your "both sides" argument.

#37 | Posted by YAV at 2021-08-21 08:33 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#36
"Disrupting a meeting ... "

I'm having a hard time believing you're actually that stupid and/or craven.

But there it is.

Sad.

#38 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2021-08-21 08:36 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

I'd like to know which, though both is an option, too.

#39 | Posted by YAV at 2021-08-21 08:45 AM | Reply

This was an attempted coup. Period.

No, it wasnt.

And you and those like you talking like this isnt helping to unite the country. At all. But you dont want the country united, do you?

#40 | Posted by boaz at 2021-08-21 09:07 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

But you dont want the country united, do you?

#40 | POSTED BY BOAZ

What's your current stance on civil war?

#41 | Posted by Zed at 2021-08-21 09:37 AM | Reply

And you and those like you talking like this isnt helping to unite the country. At all. But you dont want the country united, do you?

Tell us all again how you are only kidding when you tell us you want to take "libruls" out back and shoot them, Boaz. Tell us all how you're just trying to unite the Country. Tell us all how the only way to unite the Country is by giving in 100% to what YOU want. What you define as "true."

But we're not supposed to call this what it was because, like every other Republican horror show, we're supposed to excuse it "for the good of our Country." It's never about that. It's about absolving your conscience.

#42 | Posted by YAV at 2021-08-21 09:41 AM | Reply

Disrupting a meeting, LOL.

Now if you had said disrupting the peaceful transition of power, that would be honest.

But you're far too gone to acknowledge the truth.

And that really is sad. It's sad what you've done to yourself. To see you lie to yourself, day in and day out.

They groomed you.

#43 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-21 10:20 AM | Reply

"This was no concerted effort by anyone or group to overthrow the U.S. government."

Just like the German government didn't get overthrown in 1933.

You're hiding behind words and semantics.

Why can't you be honest?

#44 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-21 10:26 AM | Reply

You're hiding behind words and semantics.

So are you. Liberals started hiding behind semantics a long time ago..

#45 | Posted by boaz at 2021-08-21 10:45 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

So then when did you start, and why?

#46 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-21 10:45 AM | Reply

And when did you decide it's no big deal to disrupt the peaceful transition of power, Boaz?

#47 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-21 10:47 AM | Reply

Boaz, you are a disgusting human being

#48 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-08-21 11:31 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

BOAZ

"But you dont want the country united, do you?"

Not under an all white "purified" dictatorship we don't.

I don't want to see you back working in the cotton fields.

#49 | Posted by Twinpac at 2021-08-21 11:36 AM | Reply

#49 Is that on the table, cause...

#50 | Posted by bored at 2021-08-21 12:08 PM | Reply

"This was no concerted effort by anyone or group to overthrow the U.S. government."

Yes, that's exactly what many of them wanted to do:

The alt-right, QAnon, paramilitary and Donald Trump-supporting mob that stormed the US Capitol on January 6 claimed they were only doing what the so-called "founding fathers" of the US had done in 1776: overthrowing an illegitimate government that no longer represented them.

This was the start of what they called the "second American Revolution".

theconversation.com

Some who wanted to overthrow the government were members of it. Take, for example, Lauren Boebert:

Two days before the insurrection she wrote: "Remember these next 48 hours. These are some of the most important days in American history."
On the day of the insurrection, she wrote: "Today is 1776."

www.denverpost.com

#51 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2021-08-21 12:24 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"But you dont want the country united, do you?"

Boaz, if the country was united, how would minorities have their rights protected?

#52 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-21 12:36 PM | Reply

"they think Mr. Buffalo and friends were going to take over the country. I find that funny."

Nobody thinks that. What people do think is that the insurrectionists wanted to have the certification stopped and nullified so that Biden wouldn't become president and that Trump could get a second term. That's what they said their intentions were behind the Stop the Steal riot that day.

#53 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2021-08-21 12:38 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"This was no concerted effort by anyone or group to overthrow the U.S. government."

60 lawsuits challenging election results isn't a concerted effort?

Trump's phone call to Georgia wasn't a concerted effort?

Sad. Bigly sad.

#54 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-21 12:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The significance of the statement "Today is 1776":

Drawing on philosopher John Locke's ideas, the Declaration of Independence proclaims "we the people" come together to form a government to protect these rights.

And crucial to Trump supporters today, it says,

whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.

This was the sentiment voiced on January 6 when pro-Trump rioters stormed the Capitol. They chanted "This is our America" and "Whose house? Our house!"

Trump himself encouraged this thinking when he told the crowd before they marched to the Capitol, "You'll never take back our country with weakness."


And Boebert wasn't the only member of Congress encouraging the insurrectionists with talk of 1776:

[T]hey also had the support of prominent politicians beyond Trump. One of their supporters, the newly elected Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene (who is also a QAnon supporter) declared before the January 6 move to block the certification of Joe Biden's presidential victory, "This is our 1776 moment".

theconversation.com

#55 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2021-08-21 12:51 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

-Why do people incessantly try to downplay 1/6?

There are all kinds of opinions as to how significant 1/6 was. IOW, the entire spectrum can fit opinions ranging from "rag tag group of -------- led by the unarmed buffalo guy" to "bigger than 9-11".

That's a pretty broad range from one end to the other.

so when you say "downplay" you are referring to what YOU believe 1/6 was.....which is as far to 1 side as you could possible take it. Bigger than 9-11.

So my question is....why do people incessantly try to accuse others of dismissing 1/6 as nothing just because they don't happen to take it all the way to "bigger than 9-11"?

#56 | Posted by eberly at 2021-08-21 12:57 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"The investigators are still working their way up from the bottom. It is not yet known where any future evidence the FBI finds may lead them..."

Even though they have found little at this point that doesn't mean there isn't more out there to find.

#57 | Posted by eberly at 2021-08-21 01:02 PM | Reply

It's bigger than 9-11 like this: we weren't attacked by foreign nationals with a reasonable list of grievances about America meddling in their foreign affairs.

We were attacked by Americans, including active duty police, who were trying to disrupt American democracy.

The call is coming from inside the house.

Wake up.

-----.

#58 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-21 01:04 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Eberly,

Next time, instead of asking why it's a bigger deal, just explain what makes it such a big deal, in its own right. Keep the analogies and comparisons out of it and focus on America.

Just do that and you won't be such a sniveling little rat fink.

#59 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-21 01:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Not under an all white "purified" dictatorship we don't.

I don't want to see you back working in the cotton fields.

#49 | Posted by Twinpac

Notice who brought race into this.

It wasnt the conservative. There are alot of things we would not bring back into our American culture, slavery being one of them. So yall can stop it with the racism.

Will there still be whites that dont like blacks? Yes, but they arent representative of all whites and white group think. Better yet, we need to ask the question in reverse. Will there still be blacks that hate whites?

#60 | Posted by boaz at 2021-08-21 01:22 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Now we're getting somewhere!

What parts of the Constitution will he repealed, Boaz?

#61 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-21 01:28 PM | Reply

And I should say that I respect the opinion that 1-6 is very significant not from the perspective of loss of human life or property damage, nor that Americans attacked America.

The leadership in 1 major party of our country engages in a conspiracy to throw out an election to allow the the loser in an election to remain in office?

That's a big ------- deal.

Even if true (still remains to be conclusively proved) most Americans including those in the middle and the left will never render it bigger than 9-11.

They won't. The loss of life, property, the symbolism the resulting war and the changes made in our lives since will make 9-11 a million times bigger than 1/6 in their minds.

Some of you might need some therapy in order to come to grips with that reality.

I'm not angry with someone who believes 1/6 was bigger than 9-11. I respectfully disagree with them.

Why they get angry with me? I don't know really.

#62 | Posted by eberly at 2021-08-21 01:31 PM | Reply

Boaz, do you think the election was stolen?

Now, assuming the election was stolen: Is it wrong to disrupt the meeting where Congress gives power to the party that stole the election?

#63 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-21 01:35 PM | Reply

Oh, I can see Snoofy is posting (at me no doubt).

As usual, it takes him less than 3 minutes to start following me around and attacking me.

I can't deal him anymore. He's an outright stalking, trolling, attention seeking juvenile.

I don't want to talk to him nor about him.

I regretfully unplonked him some time back but if I want to spend any quality time here engaged in any kind of thoughtful discourse.....it can't involve him. There is no way both can happen.

#64 | Posted by eberly at 2021-08-21 01:35 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Even if true (still remains to be conclusively proved) most Americans including those in the middle and the left will never render it bigger than 9-11."

So find a better talking point.

#65 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-21 01:35 PM | Reply

Eberly, I'm sorry that being possibly the smartest Republican here is too heavy a burden for you to bear.

I really so feel bad that it's having this effect on you.

Because if you'll turn the other cheek while the GOP embraces fascism, then so will just about everyone else in the GOP.

#66 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-21 01:38 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

-Better yet, we need to ask the question in reverse. Will there still be blacks that hate whites?

No doubt. Without that, racism would lose it's luster as a social wedge issue.

But that hate is apparently NOTHING compared to hatred here from the left towards a black conservative.

#67 | Posted by eberly at 2021-08-21 01:43 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Boaz, have fun with Snoofy.......I'm out.

#68 | Posted by eberly at 2021-08-21 01:43 PM | Reply

Posted by boaz

This POS is just a revolting sociopath.

#69 | Posted by Angrydad at 2021-08-21 01:52 PM | Reply

"... black conservative."

No.

"Ignorant sociopath" is why people dislike him.

#70 | Posted by Angrydad at 2021-08-21 01:57 PM | Reply

70

--------. this place HAS actual ignorant sociopaths.....you have no problem with them.

and it's people like you who drag his race into discussions so.....you are completely full of ----.

He's a black conservative. Nothing else bothers you. Just that.

#71 | Posted by eberly at 2021-08-21 02:55 PM | Reply

Eberly sounding like when Danni goes on a tear.

#72 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-21 03:02 PM | Reply

Boaz: are you really denying that the purpose of the move was to try and prevent the certification of the electoral college votes?

I'm serious. That was exactly what they were trying to disrupt. A "meeting" to verify the electoral college training Biden as the winner.

The constitution is not at all clear what happens if their is no certified vote, but they wanted to force a constitutional crisis that works have kept Trump in office past January 20th. That's as close as you can get to an insurrection if it isn't one.

If you think that's incorrect, I'd love to hear how.

#73 | Posted by ABH at 2021-08-21 06:54 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I need to stop day drinking:

"Declaring" Biden the winner.

Electoral college "results"

"Would" have kept Trump in office

Bah.

#74 | Posted by ABH at 2021-08-21 07:01 PM | Reply

Abh,

The plan was to steal Pelosi's gavel.

It has special powers just like Dorothy's shoes.

Click Click click...Trump is now the winner.

That was the plan.

#75 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-08-21 09:19 PM | Reply

Disrupting a meeting is not the same thing as a coup.
#36 | POSTED BY BOAZ

The insurrectionists completely disagree. Just ask them.

#76 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2021-08-21 10:24 PM | Reply

So my question is....why do people incessantly try to accuse others of dismissing 1/6 as nothing just because they don't happen to take it all the way to "bigger than 9-11"?
#56 | POSTED BY EBERLY

I'd say their simply addressing the language being provided, such as BOAZ's language for a prime example. Have you bothered to read it?

#77 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2021-08-21 10:29 PM | Reply

I'm not angry with someone who believes 1/6 was bigger than 9-11. I respectfully disagree with them.
Why they get angry with me? I don't know really.
#62 | POSTED BY EBERLY

This is so inconsequential. Why don't you just drop it? You're the only one bringing it up.

#78 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2021-08-21 10:31 PM | Reply

#75 huh? Are you debuting they wanted to disrupt and stop the certifying of the electoral college votes? Despite l like ALL of them saying that's what they wanted to do? Oh and then hunting through the halls to find where they were conducting the certification?

#79 | Posted by ABH at 2021-08-22 07:27 AM | Reply

Denying . Sheesh.

#80 | Posted by ABH at 2021-08-22 07:27 AM | Reply

What happened on 1/6 was directly related to mail-in ballots being used so heavily as a primary mode of voting.

Absentee ballots at least have a voter application on file to tie the ballot.

This election there was lacking those sort of checks and balances.

If America moves forward with this fantasy of hap hazard voting we are going to see more fighting about the results.

Early voting is not suppressing votes and provides an excellent way to give people time to get to the polls, create a more reliable audit trail and will improve public confidence in the results.

#81 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-08-22 09:42 AM | Reply

Okay. Even if that were true, that doesn't change the FACT, they were trying to overturn the results by preventing the verification of the electoral college voting and force a constitutional crisis.

You are in very shaky ground saying absentee voting has issues, when it's been allowed as a legitimate form of voting for years. Just because it increased in scale doesn't delegitimize it as a voting method.

#82 | Posted by ABH at 2021-08-22 09:51 AM | Reply

You are in very shaky ground saying absentee voting has issues...

Oh gawd don't get him started.

#83 | Posted by REDIAL at 2021-08-22 10:03 AM | Reply

#82 | POSTED BY ABH AT 2021-08-22 09:51 AM | FLAG:

That's a stretch. I have no doubt some of them even believed that.. but they're also morons living in a fantasy trying to do something that's empirically impossible due to a law passed in 1877. The electoral votes were certified a month earlier.

#84 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-08-22 10:13 AM | Reply

Abh,

Biden has created a epochal situation that will soon overtake covid and 1/6 in the news...maybe not the liberal sites such as this one but elsewhere.

An opinion now is that Biden didn't want America over there in the first place not even to get OBL.

So in his hubris and thinking he knows best didn't listen to advisors and created a problem for America and our European allies.

#85 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-08-22 10:49 AM | Reply

"empirically impossible due to a law"

I guess murder is impossible too, since they passed a law against it.

When did they pass the law that makes it illegal for states to ban gay marriage?
How long did states continue to ban gay marriage?

I don't know why you play dumb, Sitzkrieg.
But the best explanation is you support the insurrection.

#86 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-22 10:55 AM | Reply

Biden has created a epochal situation that will soon overtake covid and 1/6 in the news...

"Epochal"? LOL. Sure.

#87 | Posted by REDIAL at 2021-08-22 11:00 AM | Reply

What happened on 1/6 was directly related to mail-in ballots being used so heavily as a primary mode of voting.

Not at all. What happened on 1/6 was directly related to the non-stop lies from Trump and other Republicans about voter integrity and morons believing the lie over all the proof, checked over and over and over again that the election was fair and valid.

So no, your premise is incorrect. It was directly due to a campaign to discredit our votes and to then steal the election from us, the American people.

Do you need quote after quote after quote? Do you need the Jan 6th "rally" played again? Do you need Trump's twitter feed?

Wow.

#88 | Posted by YAV at 2021-08-22 11:08 AM | Reply

Yav,

And why were Trump and Republicans feeling the need to discuss "voter integrity"?

Mail-in ballots.

The catalyst for this whole mess was mail-in ballots.

#89 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-08-22 11:11 AM | Reply

The catalyst for this mess was people like you believing the GOP/Russian propaganda that mail in ballots are insecure.

"It is easier to fool a man, than convince him he has been fooled." -- Attributed to Mark -----

Looking at you, BillJohnson.

#90 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-22 11:15 AM | Reply

The catalyst for this whole mess was mail-in ballots.

Easy fix for that... don't count them last.

#91 | Posted by REDIAL at 2021-08-22 11:16 AM | Reply

" Early voting is not suppressing votes and provides an excellent way to give people like me time to get to the polls ... "

At least have the class to tell the truth.

Now ... do a woman with three young kids and two full-time jobs, who lives two bus rides and a transfer from her polling place.

#92 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-08-22 11:17 AM | Reply

Snoofy,

I saw the flaws in mail-in ballots long before the election.

Everything I wrote about happened.

#93 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-08-22 11:17 AM | Reply

Dan,

"do a woman with three young kids and two full-time jobs, who lives two bus rides and a transfer from her polling place."

I bet she can figure out what to do with her kids to arrange to go out on a date.

Democrats want to treat voters like children and put the crayon in their hands.

Voting is a choice.

You either choose to do it or you don't.

No one is forcing you.

If you can't find the time and a way to go vote, then lose your vote.

Alternatively, apply for an absentee ballot if you qualify. I don't have a car or the time should not qualify.

#94 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-08-22 11:23 AM | Reply

Redial,

""Epochal"? LOL. Sure."

Yes...to be sure.

The world has become a much more dangerous place and countries like China and Iran will be sure to exploit it to their advantage.

Can you say chips?

#95 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-08-22 11:29 AM | Reply

"Everything I wrote about happened."

It did?
Link?

#96 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-22 12:15 PM | Reply

If you can't find the time and a way to go vote, then lose your vote.

Yeah, and if you'd rather vote by mail than stand in covid infected lines, well idiots like bill will call your vote fraudulent. (if his candidate loses)

#97 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2021-08-22 12:20 PM | Reply

Can you say chips?

What do chips have to to with President Biden's stand on Afghanistan?

#98 | Posted by REDIAL at 2021-08-22 12:23 PM | Reply

It did?
Link?

Well, he said there would be mail in ballots and there were. They even counted then, which he has an issue with.

#99 | Posted by REDIAL at 2021-08-22 12:41 PM | Reply

" Alternatively, apply for an absentee ballot if you qualify. I don't have a car or the time should not qualify."

Ah, the vote suppressionist's central lie: a barrier to voting isn't really a barrier to voting.

#100 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-08-22 12:56 PM | Reply

#86 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2021-08-22 10:55 AM | FLAG:

Funny. You, and many others in this party, have more vivid right wing fantasies than actual right wingers.

#101 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-08-22 12:59 PM | Reply

" And why were Trump and Republicans feeling the need to discuss "voter integrity"?"

Because a) they lost; b) they're very sore losers; and c) they fell for the lies their leaders pushed.

But let's be honest: The only real "irregularity" they're worried about is the fact their candidates lost.

#102 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-08-22 01:00 PM | Reply

"I bet she can figure out what to do with her kids to arrange to go out on a date."

Of course you'd pretend to know more about her life than she does. And you can't imagine anyone would work for months at a time without a day off, something I do every year.

But to the main point, why shouldn't she have the right to vote as she chooses, in a way most convenient for her, rather than the most convenient way for you?

#103 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-08-22 02:19 PM | Reply

BillJohnson is a fkkking brain damaged idiot.

You'll never change the opinions of someone like him.

He values his ignorance above your knowledge.

He's why Republicans are still winning elections.

#104 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-08-22 02:19 PM | Reply

Funny. You, and many others in this party, have more vivid right wing fantasies than actual right wingers.
#101 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

Oh, so you're not playing dumb?
Problem is, I know you're not that dumb.
You're not Sniper.

Which brings us back to, why are you downplaying what happened?

#105 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-22 02:32 PM | Reply

"The catalyst for this whole mess was mail-in ballots."

The catalyst for this whole mess was Donald Trump wanting to create a reason to claim the election was rigged. He started to do it back in 2016 with claims that busloads of illegals were being brought into various polling places, but then he won the election so he dropped it. He latched on to mail-in ballots this recent go round, but if it hadn't been for them being used more extensively due to covid, he would have used his old standbys for why the election was rigged (illegals voting, dead people voting, machines screwing up etc.). BTW, no one who is claiming the mail-in ballots should be tossed out for all other races on those same ballots during the 2020 election. Funny that.

#106 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2021-08-22 04:01 PM | Reply

Donald Trump watching from the WH without telling them to stop yells us everything we need to know.

#107 | Posted by danni at 2021-08-22 04:32 PM | Reply

#106 - that is all so well documented and obvious, Gal, and I appreciate you putting it all out there AGAIN. It needed to be said AGAIN. Next time BillJohnson will repeat AGAIN without every acknowledging the FACT that he has NO PROOF whatsoever for his idiotic position.

That's right BillJohnson, you have NO EVIDENCE despite YOUR party being in control in all these states, and like Gal said, not one of them has bothered to look into the races their party won.

This is like bring someone up to a lake and saying "look at all that water!" and them saying "that's not water, that's dry dirt."

#108 | Posted by YAV at 2021-08-22 05:18 PM | Reply

Yav,

I have 30 years experience maintaining accounting information systems and understand checks and balances to insure integrity and accuracy.

I am my own expert as I am regarded as trustworthy and capable by people where I have worked.

In addition to setting up, training and maintaining networked integrated accounting software and ledgers, I also installed all networking going back to Novell up through Windows Servers and all PC repair. My job now is less maintenance and more straight up accounting.

Mail-in ballots as they were done this past election is not adequate for voting systems.

And recounts have minimal value for hap hazard mail-in ballots that are mailed out to anyone and used at will.

It would be like sending cash through the mail to your bank when you have no idea how much you put in the envelope or envelopes to begin with.

After being deposited you want to verify all the money was put in your account.

How would you know?

Lets suppose your cash was kept separate at the bank and able to be recounted.

$1,254 was put into your account and the cash they have of yours is $1,254.

What does that prove? The bank didn't steal any of it but it doesn't prove if all of it got there since you didn't know how much in the first place.

Democrats are saying recounts are proof there were no irregularities. No it's not.

How can you possibly say all of the cash you sent is in your account without something to verify it against.

Absentee ballots where you must request one before it is sent to you creates checks and balances.

Mail-in ballots as they were processed this past election is not adequate for votes which in my opinion is more valuable than money yet they were treated like raffle tickets.

We can't hold more elections like this if we want public trust.

Do Democrats really care about public trust or just implementing a system where they can harvest votes?

#109 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-08-22 07:24 PM | Reply

I am my own expert...

That must be convenient.

#110 | Posted by REDIAL at 2021-08-22 07:27 PM | Reply

And BillJohnson points to the lack of proof as proof. That lake is dry, if you take all the water out of it.

"Democrats are saying recounts are proof there were no irregularities. No it's not."
WRONG. Republicans that aren't morally corrupt are saying it. Judges appointed by Trump are saying it. Republicans that even voted for some of these idiotic fraudits are speaking up and are horrified at the sheet stupidity of it all and how absolutely dumb it is making Republicans look.

Again. You have no evidence at all. Your exercise in rationalization is ridiculous. I don't mean a little ridiculous, either. It's flat out insane.

With all your "accounting skills" you should be sending a resume to Trump. I hear there's likely going to be an opening.

#111 | Posted by YAV at 2021-08-22 07:45 PM | Reply

There need not be a highly-coordinated tactical effort to direct and control an unruly mob who already had their purpose and marching orders to overthrow the election from Heil Donald.

#112 | Posted by Corky at 2021-08-22 08:31 PM | Reply

"I am my own expert as I am regarded as trustworthy and capable by people where I have worked."

You work any elections?
I doubt it.

Honestly you sound like Trump.
You sound like a snotty, know-it-all kid.

#113 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-22 08:39 PM | Reply

Snoofy,

"You sound like a snotty, know-it-all kid."

Have you noticed many people on this site are proficient in one thing or another.

I gave a logical example why mail-in ballots are risky.

Don't worry about me....don't make this about me.

How about my cash example?

Do you see how ballots could be lost and no one even know?

#114 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-08-22 08:49 PM | Reply

"Do you see how ballots could be lost and no one even know?"

Yes.

But how often does mail actually get lost?

Also, the board of elections knows who they send ballots to. I even got two ballots because I moved to a different district.

This isn't just random people mailing ballots to every name in the phone book.

#115 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-22 08:55 PM | Reply

If you don't return your ballot, one reason could be that it got lost.

A far more likely reason is you didn't mail it back or drop it off.

I don't see a problem.

#116 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-22 08:58 PM | Reply

Do you see how ballots could be lost and no one even know?

How to track your mail-in ballot

Fortunately, almost everyone who is allowed to vote by mail can stay on top of where those ballots are. In 44 states and the District of Columbia, a unified system allows all voters to see when their request for a ballot by mail was received, when the ballot was mailed to them and when the completed ballot was received back at the local election office.

Your ignorance knows no bounds. You know less about American elections than any poster posting about them!

#117 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-22 08:59 PM | Reply

BillJohnson what's your retort to the facts in #117?

#118 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-22 09:08 PM | Reply

cont.

Two other states provide online tracking for members of the military and civilian citizens who live overseas -- groups that have special mail ballot protections under federal law. In the remaining four states without a statewide ballot-tracking system, some counties and municipalities may have their own online versions -- or may be able to update voters who contact the office by phone or in person.
So basically almost every voter inside and outside America can at any time ascertain exactly where their absentee ballot is both incoming and outgoing. So no, ballots are not "lost", they can be accurately tracked every step of their journey both to and from each voter. Even federal law mandates this for some voters.

#119 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-22 09:09 PM | Reply

Vote by mail is the best way to vote.
It makes voting easy, especially for those with disabilities or difficulty getting to polling stations.
It enables informed voting as the voter can research their choices while voting.

Oregon has been auto registering voters and mailing ballots to all registered voters for years with no problems.
youtu.be

#120 | Posted by bored at 2021-08-22 09:11 PM | Reply

Absentee ballots where you must request one before it is sent to you creates checks and balances.

Every ballot sent out by every state is "requested." The only persons receiving them are legally registered voters - registering to vote IS one's request for a ballot! And whether their ballots are mailed or given to them at physical voting locations, every state requires at minimum a signature match from either the initial registration or the prior election's registration sheet. Most states - even with mail-in ballots - require photo ID - a copy enclosed with absentee ballots. Some states even require third party affidavits too for mail in ballots.

Again, more ignorance showing that he knows little if nothing about the safeguards built into our voting systems regardless of how one casts their ballot.

#121 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-22 09:24 PM | Reply

Tony,

Regardless how you deal with this problem of misdirected, miscounted, manhandled ballots, the margin of error will be higher than with early voting in person.

That is an absolute fact.

Voting is sometimes down to the wire.

10 votes can matter.

The precision that must be achieved is important.

There's other factors involved in mail-in ballots other than processing pieces of paper.

There's the harvesting problem. And I'm sure some families pressure other family members to vote a certain way.

Not to mention I strongly oppose the government keeping a record of our voting habits.

I'd bet states systems for "fixing" ballots isn't as solid as early voting for accuracy.

America must only use solid voting methods.

Back to my original post. This break-in was the direct result of mail-in ballots that created a voting mess.

#122 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-08-22 09:27 PM | Reply

"6 ways mail-in ballots are protected from fraud" abc7.com

Voter fraud is very rare, whether people vote in person or by mail. That much is clear from a large body of research.

One of us is a political scientist at the University of Washington, and the other is a former elections commissioner who now studies voting laws. We can explain why voter fraud is so rare - especially for mail-in ballots, which have drawn both the interest and concern of many people this year.

Mr. Johnson needs to find empirical proof of his ridiculous speculation in the five states that automatically do all their elections by mail, Oregon, Washington, Utah, Colorado and Hawaii.

More on the use of barcodes in the elections industry from the National Association of Secretaries of State. www.nass.org

Get to work, Bill, instead of flapping your fingers.

#123 | Posted by et_al at 2021-08-22 09:33 PM | Reply

No it wasn't.
It was due to the lies of Trump and the GOP.
Period.

#124 | Posted by YAV at 2021-08-22 09:34 PM | Reply

You had no talking point, Bill, until it was given to you.

#125 | Posted by YAV at 2021-08-22 09:38 PM | Reply

#122

You can keep ignoring actual facts and making up nonsensical, non-occurring "problems" that fit your ignorant paranoia, but that still doesn't make it so, and you've yet to provide one tangible piece of evidence that any vote total has been provenly compromised by your fantasies.

I'm not having this discussion with you because you refuse to take actual evidence as an answer. Mail-in voting is as secure, if not more secure than in-person voting for the very reason sane people already anticipated various ways the system could be compromised and put in place checks and verifications to make sure that it stays safe and secure.

Bill you are free to wrongly feel however you want, but every unbiased election expert has loudly and proudly declared that our last election was the most secure in history at the same time we set records for mail-in balloting due to Covid. You are not an expert in their field and your impressions lack any evidence other than your disbelief in their expertise, while touting your own wholly unrelated to both the science and reality of election tallying and the accuracy of the systems they use.

#126 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-22 09:39 PM | Reply

"Mr. Johnson needs to find empirical proof of his ridiculous speculation"

Too bad the legislature doesn't have to provide empirical proof when they attack mail-in voting with their ridiculous speculation.

I'm just saying! :)

#127 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-22 09:47 PM | Reply

From et_al's link:

1. Only valid voters can get a ballot in the mail
2. It is very hard to make fake ballots

3. Voters must affirm their identity - Every state has a process for verifying that absentee voters - the technical term for people who return ballots by mail rather than in person - really are who they say they are.

In most states, voters must sign the outside of their return envelope. This signature usually cannot deviate significantly from the signature on their original voter registration card, or the ballot will be rejected. If anything, the process of matching these signatures is often too strict, critics say, leading election administrators to unfairly reject authentic votes from registered voters due to slight signature discrepancies.

Some states also require voters to obtain a signature from one or more notaries or witnesses. A few even make voters submit a copy of their official government ID, like a driver's license.

4. It's very hard to duplicate mail-ballot envelopes - In general, voters cannot return their absentee ballots in just any old envelope. Rather, the ballots must be returned inside an official government envelope, which is typically mailed directly to voters along with the ballot itself.

Many of these ballot envelopes feature unique bar codes to identify each voter - and to allow voters to track their ballot's progress through the mail and the counting process.

An outsider who wanted to manufacture and distribute fake ballots on a large enough scale to affect election results would need to do more than duplicate the special envelope and the bar codes. They would also somehow need to prevent the original, authentic envelopes and bar codes from being used. Otherwise, election officials would notice that a unique bar code was being used more than once.
5. The Postal Service will notice oddities
6. Voter fraud is a serious federal and state crime - For a federal election, each act of voter fraud can be punished by five years in prison and a US$10,000 fine, plus any additional state penalties.

By contrast, all that work put into attempting fraud would net the perpetrator only a single vote in favor of their preferred candidate. As a report from the Brennan Center for Justice succinctly put it, "That single extra vote is simply not worth the price."

Voters who choose to vote by mail in November can be confident that their own ballot - and those of their neighbors - will be protected from fraud.


#128 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-22 10:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

BillJohnson what's your retort to the facts in #117?
#118 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Why would facts make any difference to Bill?

Never has before.

#129 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-08-22 10:28 PM | Reply

You're all spinning your wheels.

Bill is an asshhle and a troll.

He literally ignores all facts and spits his ignorance in your face.

You all have way more patients for his bullshht than I do.

#130 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-08-22 11:39 PM | Reply

"There's the harvesting problem."

That suggests someone going to the trouble of requesting a ballot is not only willing to hand it over, but hand it over to someone who the voter knows is going to vote differently. And in addition, you've got to believe those instances happen in one party MUCH more than the other, since if "both sides do it", it cancels itself out.

"And I'm sure some families pressure other family members to vote a certain way."

Are you making a confession?

#131 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-08-22 11:45 PM | Reply

#105 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2021-08-22 02:32 PM | REPLY | FLAG

An organized, deep-state-like entity with a plan and armament to storm DC's underground tunnels, capture, and execute Democrats, is a right wing fantasy... but it's one held by Democrats and that's funny to me.

A bunch of wypipo had what historically for whites is a mild riot and got misdemeanors for it.

The Republicans will eventually be back in power and the right will scream for felonies for Democrat protesters that roll up into the capitol to protest a confirmation hearing or some other formality that's going to resolve no matter what they do. Except now we'll have a Paul Ryan randian able to direct a vastly expanded Capitol Police and probably a Trump-type in office with a Trump appointed DOJ. Since you're the type that needs political affirmations, I will make sure you are informed of the mockery I send their way.

#132 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-08-23 08:19 AM | Reply

Tony,

Contrasting mail-in ballots to early voting, mail-in will be vastly more labor intensive with all this handling and opening and recording and fixing compared to early voting with much fewer people involved.

Early voting creates fewer opportunities to make mistakes.

Mail-in will require far more resources to achieve something that is still less accurate, reliable and trusted.

Those same resources could be used to open and run more convienient voting stations.

#133 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-08-23 08:26 AM | Reply

" Mail-in will require far more resources to achieve something that is still less accurate, reliable and trusted."

So have you found fraud in the five states that only do mail in ballots, or are you still bearing false witness? You were asked up thread to do some legwork and find some cases to prove your point. I see you still haven't begun.

#134 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-08-23 08:39 AM | Reply

#133

Can you post ONE LINK to a verifiable source that quantifies your assertions?

If not, STOP! Your opinion is not the basis for how this nation assesses its ballot integrity. Your arguments have been eviscerated, they do not hold any water as matters of reality. There are no ballot issues which aren't already handled with complete integrity and documented accuracy.

All you do is invent imaginary problems that do not exist in real life.

As you've been told over and over, mail in ballots have existed since the 1800s, they are not new. FIVE STATES run their complete elections by mail without any of the issues you claim are problems.

Regardless of how registered voters choose to vote, their ballots are secure and their votes are counted if deemed valid by state laws.

The only problem with mail-in ballots is YOU my friend and your delusionally wrong belief that these ballots are less secure than in-person voting, when for many the truth is just the opposite. In-person voters do not have to supply notarized 3rd party verification of their identity before being allowed to vote as multiple states demand with mail-in ballots.

#135 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-08-23 08:40 AM | Reply

Bill has his opinion and his "gut" and that's it.

Facts be damned.

#136 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2021-08-23 09:02 AM | Reply

Comments are closed for this entry.

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