Advertisement

Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, August 31, 2021

A county judge in Ohio has ordered a hospital in Cincinnati to administer ivermectin to an intensive care patient, a move raises questions about the role of the courts in the medical system. "It is absurd that this order was issued," Arthur Caplan, professor of bioethics at New York University's Langone Medical Center, told Ars. "If I were these doctors, I simply wouldn't do it."

More

Comments

Admin's note: Participants in this discussion must follow the site's moderation policy. Profanity will be filtered. Abusive conduct is not allowed.

The courts can't even order known beneficial drugs to dying patients. Now one can order a medicine for head lice and parasitic germs be given? WTF? Covid has made our judicial system stupid.

I agree that if I was a doctor, I'd refuse the court order

#1 | Posted by jakester at 2021-08-31 10:47 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Trying to force a doctor to give a non-indicated treatment? I hope this judge sent a copy of this ruling to the ACLU to save their attorneys a few minutes.

#2 | Posted by VictorZiblis at 2021-08-31 12:05 PM | Reply

Reminds me of a case where a judge ordered a health care provider to remove a patient's feeding tube, because that's what the spouse wanted...

#3 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-08-31 12:17 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

I don't really see the resemblance, other than a judge ordered a health intervention...

#4 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-31 12:22 PM | Reply

#3 - if you are thinking of that Terry Shiavo (sp?) case many years ago, I do not feel it's the same. In this case the judge is ordering a doctor to provide a drug that is unproven and even possibly harmful drug to combat Covid.

In the Shiavo case there was no such order. It was a pull-the-plug euthanasian debate.

But maybe you are talking of another case.

#5 | Posted by jakester at 2021-08-31 12:22 PM | Reply

I liked this comment from the link:

Waiting for the right-wing folks to come in here yelling about "activist judges..."

#6 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-31 12:28 PM | Reply

@#3 ... Reminds me of a case where a judge ordered a health care provider to remove a patient's feeding tube, because that's what the spouse wanted... ...

Apples and oranges.

#7 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-08-31 01:25 PM | Reply

" a case where a judge ordered a health care provider to remove a patient's feeding tube, because that's what the spouse wanted..."

That's incorrect; it's what the patient wanted. Big difference. Meanwhile, her parents pretended they could veto the husband's carrying out of Terry's wishes. They even brought in religion, obviously forgetting all that "leave your parents and cleave to your spouse" stuff.

This case is also known for Bill Frist's diagnosis-from-afar, that Terry wasn't really that far gone. Of course, when they sawed open her brain, it was half the normal size.

Examination of Schiavo's nervous system by neuropathologist Stephen J. Nelson, revealed extensive injury. The brain itself weighed only 615 g (21.7 oz), only half the weight expected for a female of her age, height, and weight, due to the loss of a massive number of neurons. Microscopic examination revealed extensive damage to nearly all brain regions, including the cerebral cortex, the thalamus, the basal ganglia, the hippocampus, the cerebellum, and the midbrain. The neuropathologic changes in her brain were precisely of the type seen in patients who enter a PVS following cardiac arrest. Throughout the cerebral cortex, the large pyramidal neurons that comprise some 70% of cortical cells " critical to the functioning of the cortex " were completely lost. The pattern of damage to the cortex, with injury tending to worsen from the front of the cortex to the back, was also typical. There was marked damage to important relay circuits deep in the brain (the thalamus) " another common pathologic finding in cases of PVS. The damage was, in the words of Thogmartin, "irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons".

#8 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-08-31 02:31 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

"Apples and oranges."

Only in the sense that Terri was in much less physical pain, wasn't ripping out her own tubes, probably had a higher IQ than the guy in this story...

#9 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-08-31 04:48 PM | Reply

Having lived in Cincinnati for many years, I'm confident the hospital involved will unleash even greater legal horsepower in this case, on appeal. The judge is in Butler County, Smoky Boehner's home, and also a place inhabited by numerous far-right kooks and crazies. I see no way on God's green earth that this order will be permitted to stand. Physicians cannot be compelled to provide unsound treatment. This isn't Russia, North Korea or China. Is it?

#10 | Posted by catdog at 2021-08-31 04:52 PM | Reply

This isn't Russia, North Korea or China. Is it?

#10 | Posted by catdog

Well we no longer have real democracy, so yes it kind of is.

#11 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-08-31 05:02 PM | Reply

"That's incorrect; it's what the patient wanted."

There was about as much evidence of that as saying this patient wanted to get ivermectin if put on a ventilator. Probably less.

"This case is also known for Bill Frist's diagnosis-from-afar, that Terry wasn't really that far gone."

After over a year of doctors remotely diagnosing people from afar during the pandemic, not to mention all the partisan -------- diagnosing both the previous and current presidents with medical conditions from afar, that criticism doesn't hold as much weight as it used to.

"They even brought in religion, obviously forgetting all that "leave your parents and cleave to your spouse" stuff."

Oh, so now you speak for other people's religious beliefs?

"Of course, when they sawed open her brain, it was half the normal size."

Her brain could have been the size of housecat's brain, and it would still be irrelevant. Ordering a medical procedure to have a person's feeding tube removed when that's the only they can ingest was both monstrous and a dangerous precedent. If you supported that, then you have no right to complain about the government ordering dubious medical treatments.

#12 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-08-31 05:20 PM | Reply

italics off

#13 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-08-31 05:21 PM | Reply

If I give a DNR before I go into a coma, you damn better remove my feeding tube. It's the patient's wish.

#14 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2021-08-31 05:29 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

It's absurd compare removing a preexisting feeding tube to a "DNR". It's absurd for the government to make up an imaginary DNR based on hearsay to disrupt a stable condition and pretend it's not murder.

#15 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-08-31 05:42 PM | Reply

@#9 ... Only in the sense that ...

Not really.

Wanna try again?


(But I do give you consolation points for the deflection of the topic.)

#16 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-08-31 06:04 PM | Reply

#16, it's directly relevant to the "outrage" over a judge ordering a non-indicated treatment.

#17 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-08-31 06:49 PM | Reply

Reminds me of a case where a judge ordered a health care provider to remove a patient's feeding tube, because that's what the spouse wanted...

#3 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-08-31 12:17 PM | Reply

If you're talking about the Schiavo case, there is ONE similarity, Terri Schiavo was brain dead and as such her husband had the final say as to her medical treatment, in this case, it's the judge and the man's wife that are brain dead.

#18 | Posted by _Gunslinger_ at 2021-08-31 06:56 PM | Reply

"Terri Schiavo was brain dead"

Not really.

Wanna try again?

#19 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-08-31 07:06 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

Not really.

Wanna try again?

#19 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-08-31 07:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

Try reading, I'll post this from Danforth's earlier post. She was essentially brain dead, her brain has HALF THE SIZE IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN, so yes: Examination of Schiavo's nervous system by neuropathologist Stephen J. Nelson, revealed extensive injury. The brain itself weighed only 615 g (21.7 oz), only half the weight expected for a female of her age, height, and weight, due to the loss of a massive number of neurons. Microscopic examination revealed extensive damage to nearly all brain regions, including the cerebral cortex, the thalamus, the basal ganglia, the hippocampus, the cerebellum, and the midbrain. The neuropathologic changes in her brain were precisely of the type seen in patients who enter a PVS following cardiac arrest. Throughout the cerebral cortex, the large pyramidal neurons that comprise some 70% of cortical cells " critical to the functioning of the cortex " were completely lost. The pattern of damage to the cortex, with injury tending to worsen from the front of the cortex to the back, was also typical. There was marked damage to important relay circuits deep in the brain (the thalamus) " another common pathologic finding in cases of PVS. The damage was, in the words of Thogmartin, "irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons".

So yes, brain dead, if not the precise medical term, she was in an irreversible state of brain decay with ZERO quality of life and no hope for recovery.

#20 | Posted by _Gunslinger_ at 2021-08-31 07:39 PM | Reply

Sentinel had to dig that poor lady up just so he could pound sand on the internet ---- A

It was mortifying to watch the "conservatives" drag her out as a prop back then, and it's even more repugnant now.

The GOP stuck government so far up that lady's rear, it was downright criminal

#21 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2021-08-31 07:47 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

You should go ask your wife if she would appreciate being paraded about in that condition On National TV. For a political stunt.

I'm sure of what their reaction would be

And for those of you on the DR who may not be familiar with the term "wife", it's a person, usually vain, whom you share domicile with, and where you fight and have intercourse.

#22 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2021-08-31 07:58 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The important difference is Terri Schiavo's husband was intending for Terri to die when the feeding tube was removed.

This wife is intending for her husband to live, but the treatment will kill him.

Or, perhaps, she's trying to murder him in tricky way the Riiiiight will support as being Pro-Life.

#23 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-31 08:31 PM | Reply

"If you supported that, then you have no right to complain about the government ordering dubious medical treatments."

You mean if I support the right for someone's DNR to be honored?!? ARE YOU EFFING KIDDING ME?!?

And using her for political purposes, again? You're scum.

#24 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-08-31 09:04 PM | Reply

"So yes, brain dead, if not the precise medical term..."
#20 | POSTED BY _GUNSLINGER_ AT 2021-08-31 07:39 PM | FLAG: FAIL!!!

So you acknowledge that she was not actually brain dead, even though you have to play these stupid, convoluted word games to pretend say that she was. Well done.

Don't ever complain if some judge declares you to be "brain dead" based on your stupidity that you obviously cannot recover from. Or if someone whom you share domicile with, and where you fight and have intercourse, uses that precedent to have you dewormed.

#25 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-08-31 10:21 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"You're scum."
#24 | POSTED BY DANFORTH

---- off, Dan. There was no DNR in that case, and even if there was, a DNR is the exact opposite of ordering a medical procedure that would make a difference in whether a patient dies or not.

I know you probably don't have a memory that long, but I was blasting right wing "pro-lifers" at the time for cynically politicizing the issue. You ghouls on the left weren't any better, especially when you romanticized death by dehydration and starvation as serene and euphoric.

abcnews.go.com

#26 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-08-31 10:32 PM | Reply

" So you acknowledge that she was not actually brain dead"

Brain dead is not the same as dead.

She was what's clinically known as brain dead. Here are the three symptoms:
www.nhs.uk

You, by contrast, are merely figuratively brain dead.

#27 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-08-31 10:32 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"So you acknowledge that she was not actually brain dead, even though you have to play these stupid, convoluted word games to pretend say that she was. Well done"

Huh?

If there's a difference between Brain Dead and Persistent Vegetative State, it's not an important one for the purposes of this discussion. Especially since her brains were turned to mush. I mean, more mushy than brains already are.

#28 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-31 10:36 PM | Reply

" especially when you romanticized death by dehydration and starvation as serene and euphoric."

No one ever did that.

Except you, just now.

Scum.

#29 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-08-31 10:38 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Brain dead people can be euphoric?

#30 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-08-31 10:40 PM | Reply

"No one ever did that."

GFYS. The serene one was in the link I provided, and the euphoric one was made by Mr. Schiavo's lawyer. Call me scum all you want, it won't change the fact you're a lying POS.

#31 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-08-31 10:52 PM | Reply

"She was what's clinically known as brain dead. Here are the three symptoms:
www.nhs.uk"

You're a moron. One needs to have all three symptoms to be diagnosed as clinically brain dead. She only had one.

#32 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-08-31 10:58 PM | Reply

" There was no DNR in that case ... "

So it boils down to whether that decision can be made (it can), and if so, who has authority: the husband, or the parents?

Legally, it's the husband. Biblically, it's the husband.

The bride and I have had extensive talks about what we'd like to happen in that case. Who TF are you to override?

#33 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-08-31 10:59 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"The serene one was in the link I provided"

From a scientist, not a political leftist.

#34 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-08-31 11:01 PM | Reply

I said it then and I will say it again... anyone with half a brain knows she was better off AFTER she was unplugged.

hmmmmmmm

I just realized something... the best thing about Trumptidumped candidacy was how fast he castrated the former Gov. Bushturd... it almost seems karmic

Please clap...

#35 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2021-08-31 11:10 PM | Reply

To be clear, I'm not advocating that anyone self medicate with veterinary drugs, but I'm getting fed up with the biased media treatment of this drug.. Ivermectin is an extraordinarily SAFE drug in therapeutic doses, with minimal side effects. The claims that Ivermectin is killing people, or that it is likely to kill this man or hasten his death have no basis in fact. Ivermectin is only fatal when grossly overdosed, or when administered to people or animals with a very specific rare gene defect. Ivermectin is given to cattle routinely, so unless you are vegan you probably have some in your body.

Granted, Ivermectin has not been conclusively double blind placebo proven effective against COVID. My view is that ANY treatment that offers even a GLIMMER of hope that it could save a persons life, and that treatment is relatively harmless, ... WHY would you deny the patient the opportunity to try it? According to the lawsuit they have exhausted all other treatment protocols . They have a physician willing to prescribe it and they are willing to waive liability, they just need the hospital to allow it. Ideally, they would transfer him to a different hospital willing to follow their treatment plan, but he is not stable enough to move, so he is basically forced to stay.

An analogy ... ..supposing he is Catholic and his wife wants him to wear a cross and allow a priest to bless him with holy water ... .but they say, "no this is a Jewish hospital and there is no proof prayer or holy water is curative, so we won't allow it. And the holy water might kill him because it isn't sterile and the cross could scratch him and cause an infection.

The man is DYING, let him try the ivermectin ... ...

#36 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-09-01 01:53 AM | Reply

"Ivermectin is an extraordinarily SAFE drug in therapeutic doses"

Tell us what ivermectin is used to treat, and how it is delivered.

"The man is DYING, let him try the ivermectin"

Shouldn't he try whatever Trump got?

#37 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-01 02:01 AM | Reply

Along the same lines, I think they should have been administering the vaccine last summer, with informed consent, for ANYONE willing to assume the risk. By then they had pretty good data, How many millions of lives could have been saved?

#38 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-09-01 02:03 AM | Reply

In particular, lots of first responders and health care workers who were already gambling with their lives last summer. Just by showing up for work. It was like spinning the roulette wheel. They should have had an opportunity to alter the odds and try a different game, throw the dice with the "not ready for prime time" vaccine if they chose to do so. Maybe some of them would still be alive, or maybe some would have died from blood clots ... I think they should have had the right to make that choice.

#39 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-09-01 02:25 AM | Reply

"I think they should have been administering the vaccine last summer, with informed consent..."

How can anyone have informed consent on anything with no information? Operation Warp Speed had the advantage of Genome-meets-Watson, so all the usual consecutive trials got to be run concurrently. Your suggestion is to start administering it before the first test results are in and analyzed.

"...for ANYONE willing to assume the risk."

Which, unfortunately, always defaults to those too dumb to know better. Sorry, but I don't believe anyone (with the exception of terminal patients who have exhausted all other avenues) should be allowed to choose whether to take something that might be dangerous or even fatal. And by "willing to assume the risk", you've abdicated the responsibility of the doctor, and put all the pressure--and the decision--on the person in the chain who probably knows the least.

#40 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-01 03:04 AM | Reply

I agree with you in some respects, but the alternative was to go to work everyday KNOWING with certainty that you were being exposed to a deadly disease everyday. First responders did not have the luxury of working from home or maintaining a 6' distance. I remember a discussion amongst some cop friends a year ago. Quite a few were absolutely ready and to take the vaccine then. Not sure what phase they were in, but human testing was well underway. Some of the people in that conversation are dead now or brought it home to family members who died. Maybe they wouldn't be if they could have opted in ... ..but I suppose you'd call them "too dumb to know better"

Of course it was prudent to wait till trials were all done, but it did cause more deaths.

#41 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-09-01 05:07 AM | Reply

"I said it then and I will say it again... anyone with half a brain knows she was better off AFTER she was unplugged."

Are you saying she was in pain and aware of her surroundings? If not, then it wasn't about what was was better for her, it was about society making itself feel better by casually getting rid of people in her condition.

"I just realized something... the best thing about Trumptidumped candidacy was how fast he castrated the former Gov. Bushturd... it almost seems karmic"

Jeb! was already castrated, and didn't really do much to help in that case anyway. And as I said many times, people were already sick of Bush and Clinton dynasties by that point. But it's good to know that euthanasia supporters will go out of their way to find something praise the trump turd.

#42 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-09-01 05:42 AM | Reply

I agree with you in some respects, but the alternative was to go to work everyday KNOWING with certainty that you were being exposed to a deadly disease .First responders did not have the luxury of working from home or maintaining a 6' distance. I remember a discussion amongst some cop friends a year ago. Quite a few were absolutely ready and to take the vaccine then. Not sure what phase they were in, but human testing was well underway. Some of the people in that conversation are dead now or brought it home to family members who died. Maybe they wouldn't be if they could have opted in ... ..but I suppose you'd call them "too dumb to know better"

Of course it was prudent to wait till trials were all done, but it did result in more deaths.

#43 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-09-01 07:46 AM | Reply

I wonder how it must feel for the judge to be the laughing stock of bkoth the legal and medical communities? Obviously, he should not be a judge.

#44 | Posted by danni at 2021-09-01 07:51 AM | Reply

"In particular, lots of first responders and health care workers who were already gambling with their lives last summer."

Particularly the same as fast food workers. Plus it's literally physically impossible for fast food workers to socially distance at work.

Cops are still gambling with their lives.

COVID-19 #1 Cop Killer in 2020.
COVID-19 #1 Cop Killer in 2021.
Let 'em die, it's what they want.
But don't let them spread disease.
Fire every cop who won't get vaccinated.

And to be fair, not just cops.
But cops seem to be the biggest snowflakes, as professions go.

#45 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-01 08:14 AM | Reply

Gasp ... they might not let him sit at the "cool kids" table in the courthouse cafeteria. You think allowing a person on their deathbed to access a medication with even the slimmest possibility of helping him makes the judge a "laughingstock" ? I call him merciful. Even if all it does is give the wife the peace that she "tried everything" it is worth it to take a little heat from people like you. What is the DOWNSIDE to letting the man have ivermectin?

#46 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-09-01 08:19 AM | Reply

Granted, Ivermectin has not been conclusively double blind placebo proven effective against COVID.

Nor have it's effects been studied in patients that are in a medically induced coma, intubated with a severe respiratory infection that is likely screwing up other organ systems.

The guy's medical status seems rather tenuous. Why not let his doctors, who are most familiar with his case, make the decision, yeah?

#47 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-01 09:41 AM | Reply

#46 have you considered the possibility that your opinion is beyond worthless on this topic?

You have zero knowledge of the drug.

Zero knowledge of the case.

Very little knowledge of COVID, medicine or science.

#48 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-01 09:43 AM | Reply

"I wonder how it must feel for the judge to be the laughing stock of bkoth the legal and medical communities? Obviously, he should not be a judge."

Legally, it comes down to whether the hospital made a convincing argument that administering this drug per the patient's guardian's request would impede their ability to treat this or any other patient at their hospital.

Medically, it's probably no worse than a placebo, if the dosage is appropriate for the patient's body mass.

BTW, people banging on about how they also have a version of this drug for horses need to shut up, unless they also laugh at anyone who takes ibuprofen or penicillin.

#49 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-09-01 09:52 AM | Reply

There should be no problem with people putting anything in their bodies as long as they are of sound mind, do it willingly and with full knowledge of the consequences. This is especially appropriate for patients at death's door. If the controversial treatment does not save the patient, loved ones will find some comfort in knowing that they did everything possible.

#50 | Posted by Fedupwithpols at 2021-09-01 09:54 AM | Reply

Medically, it's probably no worse than a placebo, if the dosage is appropriate for the patient's body mass.

Medically you don't have a clue.

BTW, people banging on about how they also have a version of this drug for horses need to shut up, unless they also laugh at anyone who takes ibuprofen or penicillin

Actually the ones who need to shut up are the Dunning-Kruger morons like yourself who are University of Google "experts".

The issue isn't that it's used in horses. The issue is that veterinary grade pharmaceuticals are lower quality than human grade and have additional ingredients tailored for the animal.

#51 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-01 09:59 AM | Reply

Meanwhile, her parents pretended they could veto the husband's carrying out of Terry's wishes. They even brought in religion, obviously forgetting all that "leave your parents and cleave to your spouse" stuff.

That's typical Talibapist stuff....ignore the parts of the bible you disagree with.

#52 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-09-01 10:04 AM | Reply

#33 | POSTED BY DANFORTH

After being divorced for 8 years I got remarried about 2 years ago. One of the first things we did was go in to the attorney together to do our wills and advance healthcare directives. Then we had my adult daughter and her sister (our personal representatives) over for dinner to go over those documents and make sure everyone understood our wishes.

#53 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-01 10:07 AM | Reply

"The issue isn't that it's used in horses. The issue is that veterinary grade pharmaceuticals are lower quality than human grade and have additional ingredients tailored for the animal."
#51 | POSTED BY DUNNINGKRUGERMORON

I guess you don't know they make a version of it for humans. Either that, or you're flat out lying like Dannyboy was earlier in this thread.

#54 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-09-01 10:08 AM | Reply

" especially when you romanticized death by dehydration and starvation as serene and euphoric."

My mother had a massive stroke, her brain was mush like Terri's. I had to make the choice...feeding tube until her lungs and heart quit or enter hospice and watch her die from dehydration as food and water was withheld.

Her DNR did not cover the situation she was in as she was still respirating and there was still movement in her eyes and limbs.

The doctor explained she would never recover from the trauma to her brain. Ever. The damage covered over 60% of her brain including every part of the brain that made her my mom.

It was the hardest decision I had to make. I knew she did not want to be hooked up to a feeding tube. I knew she wanted to slip gracefully into the afterlife and join my dad. I honored her wishes. I am just glad that I didn't have --------- fighting her wishes like Teri did.

At no time was her death romanticized and eurphoic. She missed so much that happened after that date 13 years ago. So many family memories.

#55 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-09-01 10:13 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

#54 of course I do, dumbass.

Just shut up, dude. You don't know ---- so stop acting like you do.

#56 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-01 10:15 AM | Reply

Then we had my adult daughter and her sister (our personal representatives) over for dinner to go over those documents and make sure everyone understood our wishes.

I often think of doing this. Just started filling out the trust documents for my assets.

I probably at the time will take the added step of filming on video my meeting with everyone involved my wishes and that they understood them.

#57 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-09-01 10:15 AM | Reply

I agree that if I was a doctor, I'd refuse the court order

#1 | Posted by jakester at 2021-08-31 10:47 AM | Reply | Flag:

As a doctor I would not administer any medicine that in my opinion was not appropriate. I'm sure they can dig up Fat Nixons COVID expert anesthesiologist to fly in and do it.

#58 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-09-01 10:19 AM | Reply

"#54 of course I do, dumbass.
Just shut up, dude. You don't know ---- so stop acting like you do."

Dayum. You're either day drunk already, or your brain is irreparably damaged from all those years of day drinking.

#59 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-09-01 10:20 AM | Reply

I know this article is talking about mild cases and being treated early, but other than that can anyone point out anything that's wrong in it?

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

#60 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-09-01 10:29 AM | Reply

#51 | POSTED BY JPW

That's exactly the point. This article from the Texas A&M veterinary college explains why humans should not use veterinary grade ivermectin

Understood there is a product for use of treatment of specific parasites in humans, tested for humans with dosages for humans, as opposed to a 1200 pound horse.

The problem is the average antivaxxer/antimasker/liberal hoax believer/ChinaViruser hearing about Ivermectin as a possible treatment is too stupid to know the difference. And that's the average, half are even stupider. Resulting in poison control center calls from people after ingesting horse dewormer.

today.tamu.edu

#61 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-01 10:32 AM | Reply

"That's exactly the point. This article from the Texas A&M veterinary college explains why humans should not use veterinary grade ivermectin
Understood there is a product for use of treatment of specific parasites in humans, tested for humans with dosages for humans, as opposed to a 1200 pound horse."

Just to be clear, did this judge order the hospital to administer the veterinary grade version of the drug?

#62 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-09-01 10:35 AM | Reply

"Ivermectin is an extraordinarily SAFE drug in therapeutic doses"

Tell us what ivermectin is used to treat, and how it is delivered.

Anyone?

#63 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-01 10:43 AM | Reply

"can anyone point out anything that's wrong in it?"

H
They said "in vitro" when presumably they mean "in vivo?"

#64 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-01 10:45 AM | Reply

often think of doing this. Just started filling out the trust documents for my assets.

I probably at the time will take the added step of filming on video my meeting with everyone involved my wishes and that they understood them.

#57 | POSTED BY NIXON

A few months back my parents notified us kids about how they updated their living wills and included all their online account information, which at first notification was morbid (they're in great shape - better cardio shape than their kids considering they're still marathon runners) - but also when considering what they experienced when accounting for the assets and accounts of one of my grandparents - also appreciated(?). Kind of hurts to consider death at any time ...

#65 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2021-09-01 10:45 AM | Reply

but other than that can anyone point out anything that's wrong in it?

Only 72 patients split between three groups.

The authors themselves state no concrete conclusions can be drawn from their study.

#66 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-01 10:59 AM | Reply

Kind of hurts to consider death at any time ...

#65 | POSTED BY GONOLES92

It does. And it was largely my experience being the personal representative and administrator for my mother when she passed, that made me get all those affairs in order and communicate them to the kids. All steps are laid out, there's even a retainer with the law firm. It's hard enough dealing with a loved one's death, harder when you have to make decisions without direction.

#67 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-01 11:06 AM | Reply

I probably at the time will take the added step of filming on video my meeting with everyone involved my wishes and that they understood them.

#57 | POSTED BY NIXON

That sounds like a great idea. I had some issues with my brother leading up to and after our mother's passing. And she had a will and advanced care directive. Communicating your end of life wishes to your loved ones is a gift to them, to help them get past the grief and be able to lean on each other rather than fight about who does what or gets which.

#68 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-01 11:11 AM | Reply

"One needs to have all three symptoms to be diagnosed as clinically brain dead. She only had one."

Nonsense.

You fell for the "We'll wave our hands 100 times, and if Teri's head movement EVER matches...well that's responding!"

It wasn't. It was a co-incidence; they simply cut out the other 99 (non) responses.

#69 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-01 11:17 AM | Reply

"Communicating your end of life wishes to your loved ones is a gift to them"

Worth repeating.

#70 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-01 11:17 AM | Reply

Dayum. You're either day drunk already, or your brain is irreparably damaged from all those years of day drinking.

#59 | POSTED BY SENTINEL

The reason you reached for that lame rebuttal is you are in fact an ignorant idiot.

There is one simple, two word google search you should have done before opening your trap. I'm betting you didn't based on what you've said so far.

That search is "ivermectin contraindications."

Let's see what we get when we do...

Two major concerns for ivermectin use is asthma and liver disease.

Gee, do you think maybe giving a drug contraindicated for asthma to a person with severe pulmonary inflammation due to COVID could be a bad idea?

How about in someone with a severe case of COVID, which is known to impact liver function and health?

How about the fact that there are reported interactions of ivermectin and sedatives like barbiturates? Maybe being sedated because he's intubated is a reason not to?

Fact is you, and I, know nothing about his case and condition. Just because the drug can be given safely to most HEALTHY individuals doesn't mean in any way shape or form that it's safe to give to an extremely ill patient.

#71 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-01 11:20 AM | Reply

#69 | POSTED BY DANFORTH

We've already established you're a pathological liar on this issue, so nothing you say about it is relevant. You ignore that your link says that criterion indicates the patient must be unconscious, and you ignore the criterion that her heartbeat and breathing can only be maintained using a ventilator. Either that, you believe in a conspiracy that there was a secret, hidden ventilator.

#72 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-09-01 11:38 AM | Reply

"Fact is you, and I, know nothing about his case and condition. Just because the drug can be given safely to most HEALTHY individuals doesn't mean in any way shape or form that it's safe to give to an extremely ill patient."

If it's believed to be unsafe in this circumstance, then the hospital's representation should have made this argument before the court. Did they?

#73 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-09-01 11:42 AM | Reply

"We've already established you're a pathological liar on this issue"

You fell for the "coincidence is a response" bull-hockey. Sorry, pal, but your stupidity does NOT equal my lie.

In fact, your claim she "only" had one symptom was...what? A LIE.

#74 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-01 11:45 AM | Reply

The hospital is rightfully refusing to comment on ongoing litigation.

There would also be HIPAA concerns regarding a hospital giving medical information relevant to that argument.

#75 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-01 11:49 AM | Reply

Dr. Google (JPW) renowned Doctor of Internet Expertise from Wikipedia University has googled er, spoken. QED.

#76 | Posted by visitor_ at 2021-09-01 11:51 AM | Reply

#75, I'll take that as a tacit acknowledgement that it's entirely plausible that they did not emphatically make that argument, or that it got lost in other arguments about not being obliged to honor prescriptions of doctors without privileges, or off-label use, or lack of evidence of efficacy, etc.

#77 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-09-01 12:01 PM | Reply

#74 | POSTED BY DANFORTH

You're frothing all over yourself. I didn't even mention responsiveness. Your link says "must be unconscious AND fail to respond to outside stimulation". Thus, what what we knew about her condition failed two of three criteria to diagnose clinical brain death, which is what you falsely claimed she was in comment #27.

#78 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-09-01 12:10 PM | Reply

#75, I'll take that as a tacit acknowledgement that it's entirely plausible

You're guessing.

Which means your support of this is pulled entirely out of your ass, as are your assertions that it's nothing and is perfectly safe.

#79 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-01 12:14 PM | Reply

Dr. Google (JPW) renowned Doctor of Internet Expertise from Wikipedia University has googled er, spoken. QED.

#76 | POSTED BY VISITOR_

Oh good, another idiot to kick around.

#80 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-01 12:15 PM | Reply

"what what we knew about her condition failed two of three criteria to diagnose clinical brain death, which is what you falsely claimed"

Upon further review...you were right, and I was wrong. She was merely non-responsive.

My apologies, both for my error, and my reaction.

#81 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-01 12:38 PM | Reply

All Trump supporters should be prescribed de-wormer. Maximum dose.

#82 | Posted by bored at 2021-09-01 12:47 PM | Reply

Just to be clear, did this judge order the hospital to administer the veterinary grade version of the drug?

#62 | POSTED BY SENTINEL

It doesn't say specifically so in the article. There is a line "requested that the hospital doctors "administer Ivermectin pursuant to its dosage schedule," from which I believe one could infer they are talking about a product and dose intended for humans.

#83 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-01 01:00 PM | Reply

Dr. Google (JPW) renowned Doctor of Internet Expertise from Wikipedia University has googled er, spoken. QED.

#76 | POSTED BY VISITOR_
Oh good, another idiot to kick around.

#80 | POSTED BY JPW AT 2021-09-01 12:15 PM | REPLY

My rebuttal: I'm not stupid, you are.

#84 | Posted by visitor_ at 2021-09-01 01:12 PM | Reply

"I'm not stupid, you are."

Aren't you the guy who keeps getting caught posting quotes without the salient parts?

#85 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-01 01:18 PM | Reply

My rebuttal: I'm not stupid, you are.

#84 | POSTED BY VISITOR_

Unless you're some sort of medically or scientifically trained person you're just another Dunning-Kruger acolyte.

Which means you're an idiot.

Sorry.

#86 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-01 01:38 PM | Reply

JPW. I work with highly educated, intelligent people, REAL scientists. Sorry you don't match their profile. You may not be dumb, just not exceptionally smart. It's ok. Smart people are comfortable in their skin and don't ad homonym. That's what inadequate people do.

#87 | Posted by visitor_ at 2021-09-01 02:10 PM | Reply | Funny: 4

It is within the context of this degree of exceptional stupidity that I take a certain pleasure in watching all these right wings radio commentators dropping dead like flies from Covid.

#88 | Posted by moder8 at 2021-09-01 02:24 PM | Reply

" I work with highly educated, intelligent people, REAL scientists"

IOW, a graveyard shift janitor at a major US academic university. Loves the job because it gives him time to post on the DR all day long ( Doesn't post at night because he keeps on accidentally dropping his smart phone into the toilet or mop bucket).

#89 | Posted by Pumpkinhead at 2021-09-01 02:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Visitor randomly solves open equations left on the professors chalk board then chuckles to himself as he goes back to mopping.

#90 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2021-09-01 02:28 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Smart people are comfortable in their skin and don't ad homonym. That's what inadequate people do.
#87 | POSTED BY VISITOR

Smart people know homonym is a homonym for hominem, as in argumentum ad hominem, which is an argumentative technique attacking the character of the person making a statement, rather than the substance of the statement itself. More or less what I'm doing now.

#91 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-01 02:32 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

That's what inadequate people do.
#87 | POSTED BY VISITOR_

Is that why your entire post was an ad hominem?

BTW I didn't ask about who you worked with, I asked about you.

Getting scientists and doctors coffee doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.

#92 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-01 03:16 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

JPW. I work with highly educated, intelligent people, REAL scientists. Sorry you don't match their profile. You may not be dumb, just not exceptionally smart. It's ok. Smart people are comfortable in their skin and don't ad homonym. That's what inadequate people do.
#87 | POSTED BY VISITOR_ AT 2021-09-01 02:10 PM | FLAG:
RECEIVED
| FUNNY: 2

I wouldn't say cleaning bathrooms used by intelligent people qualifies as working WITH somebody, that would require being their intellectual equal, which you amply prove on a near daily basis you are not. You're more of a working in the same building or on the same campus as intelligent people type of employee.

#93 | Posted by _Gunslinger_ at 2021-09-01 04:01 PM | Reply

#87 Visitor_ are they working to find the "gay" gene so parents can abort their gay fetuses?

Y'all remember WhiteDevil? That was his contribution to humanity.

#94 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-01 04:08 PM | Reply

GOPer for sure...
hey, I say, sounds like time
for a recall election! I mean
if the GOP can do it in California...

#95 | Posted by earthmuse at 2021-09-01 05:09 PM | Reply

Judge ordes?

Release from medical liability?
Release from ama doctrine of "do no harm"?

#96 | Posted by fresno500 at 2021-09-01 08:41 PM | Reply

That's what inadequate people do.
#87 | POSTED BY VISITOR

I'm sure you're the authoritah

#97 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-01 09:34 PM | Reply

Apologies accepted.

#98 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-09-02 03:12 AM | Reply

Comments are closed for this entry.

Home | Breaking News | Comments | User Blogs | Stats | Back Page | RSS Feed | RSS Spec | DMCA Compliance | Privacy | Copyright 2021 World Readable

Drudge Retort