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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, September 07, 2021

When Ksenia Coffman started editing Wikipedia, she was like a tourist in Buenos Aires in the 1950s. She came to learn the tango, admire the architecture, sip mat. She didn't know there was a Nazi problem.

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"There are good people on all sides."
- A not-good person

#1 | Posted by censored at 2021-09-08 07:10 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"It says that some of the conspirators came to see the plot as "a grand, if futile gesture" that would save "the honour of themselves, their families, the army and Germany." The claim isn't supported by any sources. It's conjecture, hearsay. And to her it seems strangely flattering."

It would be supported by context. Overthrow the Nazis to install an authoritarian aristocracy, while believing the SS was going to arrest them any moment already and knowing killing Hitler doesn't end that organization nor the Nazis. That's not flattering. Flattering would be more along the lines of a Hollywood movie starring Tom Cruise as a white washed Stauffenberg as a humanist anti-Nazi whom the director compared to Superman-Clark Kent alter egos.

#2 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-08 08:48 AM | Reply

Wait until she finds the articles about the Nazi rocket program and what happened to the architects of it.

or how Rudel was trafficking wanted Nazis to Brazil post-war while being monitored by the CIA who turned a blind eye to it... and in cosmic punishment.. nothing happened. He ended up a consultant for the A-10 and icon of the German airforce.

#3 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-08 08:51 AM | Reply

Would you have preferred they work for the Soviets?

#4 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2021-09-08 09:40 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#2 | Posted by sitzkrieg

What she is doing is de-glamorizing/de-glorifying the articles and making them simply factual or do you think glorifying the Nazi's and Hitler is a good thing?

As her biggest seeming opponent is quoted in the article as saying he considers Coffman's approach "most unencyclopaedic and a prime example of what Wikipedia is not (see WP:NOTCENSORED)." He went on: "Will we apply the same censorship to military history articles on units of the Khmer Rouge? Turkish military units involved in the Armenian Genocide? Rwandan military units involved in the genocide in that country? US cavalry units that massacred Native Americans? Arkan's Tigers? Where does that end?"

Well frankly yes - ALL those areas need to be cleansed of the glorification of war, genocide and other atrocities. As for where does that end? It SHOULD end with a more true picture of the horrors of these events. As a youth, I was enamored with the tales of WWII but then I began to understand what the actual human toll was. The horror of it. My father served but didn't see combat he ended up in the occupation force. I have great uncles that did see it though. In both the European and Pacific Theaters and on land as well as at sea. Their stories were NOT pretty. Fortunately they all made it home. One of my Uncles did get two purple hearts. The second being on Iwo Jima and it left him a bit scared for life - not just physically. Then there was my cousin who served in Vietnam, he finally seems at peace. I lost friends in Iraq and have friends who suffer from PTSD from both Iraq and Afghanistan. War, mass slaughter and genocide should never be glorified - especially the acts of the side actively committing the atrocities. We should be able to talk about the atrocities even of our own soldiers in order to understand why war needs to be a last resort. War changes people or in some cases just exposes the real people I suppose.

Or perhaps you are agreeing with him? But I see her approach as truly encyclopedic and we need a lot more like her.

#5 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2021-09-08 09:44 AM | Reply

#3 | Posted by sitzkrieg

Seeing how many articles she has edited and wrote on the topic, I'm pretty sure she has seen them.

#6 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2021-09-08 09:46 AM | Reply

I'm mocking the US handling and whitewashing of Nazis. What was that Von Braun movie called? I Aim for Space, in the 60s. 50 years later, here's a Nazi hero played by Tom Cruise. Go to Von Braun's NASA biographical page right now and the slave labor is quite absent and frames him as an anti-Nazi that spoke up and was arrested for speaking out.

I haven't seen any of her edits that would be controversial or revisionism nor revisionism. It's mostly detailing out singular paragraphs with more context.

#7 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-08 10:15 AM | Reply

#7 | Posted by sitzkrieg

I understand. That wasn't exactly clear to me...

When it comes to Von Braun and all the rest of them. This was something talked about in my family often enough. There was a hatred of Nazis and distrust of Germans from Germany in that era but surprisingly not Japanese. Actually much more so of the Russians than the Japanese. Of course my ancestry and relatives all came from the region of Poland, the Czech Repbulic and Slovakia.

I think (and have for some time) a good look at Von Braun is needed, based on what is known today it isn't clear if he was truly a Nazi "at heart" but I lean toward that he was and simply lied or the CIA helped him lie. So yes we need to take a hard and honest look at our own actions as a nation. After WWII there was definitely a fear of the USSR. IMHO We feared the USSR under Stalin with good reason. I am not saying our actions were warranted or unwarranted in allowing the flight of Nazis - we preferred autocratic dictators to Commies and seeing they were fleeing to South America... And bringing all the rocket experts in that we did? Strategically it was smart but let us be honest of the 1600 or so most had to be true Nazis. Their racial mindset did fit in well down south though.

#8 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2021-09-08 11:15 AM | Reply

Their racial mindset did fit in well down south though.

#8 | POSTED BY GALAXIEPETE AT 2021-09-08 11:15 AM | FLAG:

Sort of, no shortage of German heritage in Texas but much if it is mixed Hispanic. Historically though if you're hunting Nazis in America you go to Ohio and hang out in the Rust Belt. If you're were into Eugenics you hung out in New York.

This subject reminds me very much of a Dan Carlin Hardcore History podcast, about the Mongols. As a young man he was enamored by them, the commanders, their tactics, their logistics. A Chinese professor asked him, "What about the civilians?" but he didn't understand what he meant until much later. They killed so many people it caused Global Cooling but young men never study the victims and glamorize the perpetrators. That seems to happen a lot when it comes to famous militaries in history. Romans, Spartans, Mongols, Nazis, Imperial Britain, etc. I'm told British history for school kids today teaches about the good things Empire brought to the world.

#9 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-08 11:34 AM | Reply

I'm mocking the US handling and whitewashing of Nazis.

#7 | Posted by sitzkrieg

Whitewashing nazis is the official policy of your party now. You're supposed to call them "tourists" or "political prisoners" now.

#10 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 12:03 PM | Reply

Whitewashing nazis is the official policy of your party now. You're supposed to call them "tourists" or "political prisoners" now.

#10 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2021-09-08 12:03 PM | FLAG:

That's an ill way to speak of the Biden administration. Speaking of you Greenies, you're doing great in Germany, taking in more donations than Merkel's party.

#11 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-08 12:09 PM | Reply

That's an ill way to speak of the Biden administration. Speaking of you Greenies, you're doing great in Germany, taking in more donations than Merkel's party.

#11 | Posted by sitzkrieg

The biden administration calls them terrorists. THe trump cult calls them tourists.

#12 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 12:32 PM | Reply

Somebody has a case of the Mondays, but on Wednesday.

#13 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-08 12:39 PM | Reply

Somebody has a case of the Mondays, but on Wednesday.

#13 | Posted by sitzkrieg

when you're out of defenses, try comedy.

#14 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 12:57 PM | Reply

when you're out of defenses, try comedy.

#14 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2021-09-08 12:57 PM | FLAG:

Defend what? You keep going with "your party", but I'm a Democrat. Registered and everything. I even gave a lawn sign a test drive last year but it was stolen.

#15 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-08 01:20 PM | Reply

Defend what? You keep going with "your party", but I'm a Democrat. Registered and everything. I even gave a lawn sign a test drive last year but it was stolen.

#15 | Posted by sitzkrieg

Sure guy. You and jakester both. Just normal liberals who spend all day every day attacking democrats and defending republicans...

#16 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 01:36 PM | Reply

Two Minutes of Hate is too dystopian for my tastes. You do you though.

#17 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-08 01:43 PM | Reply

Two Minutes of Hate is too dystopian for my tastes. You do you though.

#17 | Posted by sitzkrieg

But you'll spend all day every day working to help the party of hate, with a leader who literally encompassed everything 1984 was warning against, including telling you that the things you see with your eyes didn't happen.

#18 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 01:48 PM | Reply

No. My lack of affirmations is not Pro-Trump political activity.

Thank you for taking an otherwise interesting thread and making it ------. Allow me to do return the favor: Your self-proclaimed economic status is the #1 indicator of environmental blight. That means you're worse than a poor Trumper for the planet.

#19 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-08 01:58 PM | Reply

Oh, and here's your plonk. auf Wiedersehen!

#20 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-08 02:00 PM | Reply

No. My lack of affirmations is not Pro-Trump political activity.

#19 | Posted by sitzkrieg

Sure water is not wet. The sky is not blue. War is peace. And posting anti democrat, pro republican trump cult statements all day is not pro trump political activity.

#21 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 02:14 PM | Reply

I went to the Prague Museum of Communism last weekend.

muzeumkomunismu.cz

It was virulently anti-communist.

Like National Socialism, Soviet Socialism was a vile system that was best relegated to the ash heap of history.

That being said, subjectivity takes away from the historical value. I'm more interested in the objective aspects.

Tell the truth objectively and let people decide for themselves.

#22 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-08 03:19 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Sure water is not wet. The sky is not blue. War is peace. And posting anti democrat, pro republican trump cult statements all day is not pro trump political activity."

In Sitz's defense, you're way to ------- stupid to even understand the point he was trying to make.

You're a special kind of stupid.

#23 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-08 03:42 PM | Reply

In Sitz's defense, you're way to ------- stupid to even understand the point he was trying to make.

You're a special kind of stupid.

#23 | Posted by madbomber

I always love being lectured about intelligence from climate change and covid deniers.

#24 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 05:37 PM | Reply

Speaks isn't stupid, he is tribal. Anyone who doesn't support all attacks on the Reich must be a Nazi.
This tribal blindness is also why we have people that think Covid is a hoax taking horse de-wormer paste.

My guess is that Sitz is an electrical engineer that owns guns and has worked for defense contractors, but supports most democratic policies and thinks Trump is terrible.

I know people like that exist.

Speaks, you should put the tribal pipe down for a bit.

#25 | Posted by bored at 2021-09-08 05:38 PM | Reply

Speaks, you should put the tribal pipe down for a bit.

#25 | Posted by bored

Yeah I used to be like that. Back when republicans were just greedy puppets for the rich. 30 years of lying about climate change resulting in massive cost, suffering, and death kind of made me start to change my mind. Then dubya blew up the mideast to get his father's affection. Then trump made me realize that this party had gone from greedy and stupid to dangerous and evil and a threat to our existence. Then the republican response to covid made me realize it's even worse - they'd rather kill americans than let a democrat save them.

So yeah I'm tribal - in the sense that I have the intelligence to recognize that there is a tribe which is currently killing people and trying to end democracy and I think they should be stopped.

Maybe it's time you asked yourself why youre not trying to stop that tribe too.

#26 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 05:49 PM | Reply

Tell the truth objectively and let people decide for themselves.

#22 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER AT 2021-09-08 03:19 PM | FLAG:

Right, that goes back to the conversation about the merits of strategic warfare against civilians. I think history has born out that Hart and the Indirect Approach is superior and that's the way the US Airforce is mostly aligned now. The Air Dominance doctrine doesn't seem to include "napalm that neighborhood to break their will". That level of strategic warfare only exists as nuclear weaponry now. The days of SAC guys planning ingress routes over the poles aren't quite what they used to be. The tactic also seems very counterproductive as pointed out in other episodes of Hardcore History, if you rise up against the state, the state just puts you on the wall.

#27 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-08 07:39 PM | Reply

My guess is that

#25 | POSTED BY BORED AT 2021-09-08 05:38 PM | FLAG:

Yeah mostly spot on. Not an EE. BI and SME in a few obscure topics.

#28 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-08 08:01 PM | Reply

#26 I agree with everything you said, and I want the GQP stopped. But you may be helping them.

A wise man told me once that people may not remember what you said, but they always remember how you made them feel.

You being an obvious lefty, while constantly attacking other dem supporters is helping the GQP.

Your attacks will never convince a GQP of the errors of their ways, but they may discourage a dem to bother voting for a tribe that is so caustic.

Maybe you are attacking sitz because he says mean things about Tesla, or he isn't pure dem enough. I don't see what you hope to accomplish.

#29 | Posted by bored at 2021-09-08 08:47 PM | Reply

#29 - "Your attacks will never convince a GQP of the errors of their ways, but they may discourage a dem to bother voting for a tribe that is so caustic."

Yep

#30 | Posted by jakester at 2021-09-08 08:54 PM | Reply

#29 - more importantly, they discourage the ones who matter in an election, the undecided independents, from voting Democrat.

But some people are so wrapped up in their mouth breathing, temple throbbing, spittle spewing toxic vitriol, they don't get it.

---- the stupid people like that.

#31 | Posted by jakester at 2021-09-08 09:01 PM | Reply

Maybe you are attacking sitz because he says mean things about Tesla, or he isn't pure dem enough. I don't see what you hope to accomplish.

#29 | Posted by bored

I treat him the same way I treat all the propagandists who spout the same lie - that both parties are the problem right now. There are several severe crisis happening right now. And in all of them, there is one side trying to help and one side literally trying to stop help from happening.

#32 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 09:49 PM | Reply

I did a research paper on Stauffenberg (loooong before he was Tom Cruise-I died ... .what a travesty) as a college freshman and remember vividly the narrative about how he was trying to save Germany's honor. I'd be curious to go back and look at the sources from a more critical perspective to see if they're part of the suspect sources described in the article here.

Regardless, Stauffenberg's story is really interesting, and while I always felt it would make a good movie, the Tom Cruise film is just ... . Ugh.

Side note: I love to see people referencing Hardcore History here. His series on the Mongols is probably one of my top 3. I'm sad there aren't many episodes being released any more.

#33 | Posted by dylanfan at 2021-09-08 10:05 PM | Reply

Ksenia Coffman is my new hero. I love her tenacity, her persistence, her dogged determination to put the truth out there, and burn away all the romanticism, nostalgia, glorification, and rehabilitation of the ignoble evil.

#34 | Posted by YAV at 2021-09-08 10:21 PM | Reply

#32 I didn't notice sitz saying both parties are the problem. I don't know if he votes GOP, but it doesn't seem like he votes Trumptilian.
I also don't get why you are in attack mode on this thread. Climate change, bio terror and the collapse of democracy are the big crises I worry about. Save some of your energy for the midterms.

#35 | Posted by bored at 2021-09-09 12:14 AM | Reply

Speaks, you should put the tribal pipe down for a bit.

#25 | Posted by bored

It's a very difficult thing. To put the pipe down.

The hatred of anything Trumptilian runs very deep and wide.

If that "former" guy is never held accountable for his actions there will be millions just like Speaks. Consumed with hatred and disgust for a man who literally got away with murdering hundreds of thousands of Americans.

I can understand that. It will be difficult for America in the coming years to heal the division trumpism has created in America. We are not the United States anymore. We are the divided states of America. And will be for a long time I fear.

#36 | Posted by donnerboy at 2021-09-09 12:45 PM | Reply

I also don't get why you are in attack mode on this thread. Climate change, bio terror and the collapse of democracy are the big crises I worry about. Save some of your energy for the midterms.

#35 | Posted by bored

I'm in the same mode on every thread where I see a republican (or republican posing as a "democrat") pushing the same lies, false equivilancies, both-sides-ism, and whataboutism that trump's cult pushes.

And that happens on every thread, because they have no defense besides their false equivalencies.

If climate change and the collapse of democracy concern you, maybe you should realize that those problems are far worse today because people tolerated right wing lies for far too long.

#37 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-09 12:50 PM | Reply

those problems are far worse today because people tolerated right wing lies for far too long.

#37 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

I can understand that! That's how someone like The Donald (way to ruin a perfectly good name!) got elected in the first place.

#38 | Posted by donnerboy at 2021-09-09 01:56 PM | Reply

"Regardless, Stauffenberg's story is really interesting, and while I always felt it would make a good movie, the Tom Cruise film is just ... . Ugh."

What a lot of people don't understand is that v Stauffenberg was a German conservative. There were lots of them. most in the Heer were drawn from the traditional Prussian officer class and deeply religious. They disliked the National Socialists because they were well...socialist. Not that much different from the communists.

I don't think anyone doubts the sacrifices that were made by German conservatives. They were likely the closest thing to "good guys" in that war. But they were certainly not promoting a liberal society as most of us would know it.

#39 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-09 03:05 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

I'm in Crete right now. I went to a war museum yesterday. The guy who started it was the son of a Cretan partisan who fought the Germans. I went to a winery this morning...same story.

I'm reading a book by Antony Beevor about the Battle for Crete. Crete was the only major battlefield where the Germans couldn't recruit collaborators. They hated the invaders with a passion. All of them.

After the war ended, the Brits allowed the Germans to keep their weapons. For self-defense. Out of the fear that the Cretan might just kill all of the German troops who had just been surrendered by their leadership.

Crete is the Afghanistan of Europe.

#40 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-09 03:10 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

" They disliked the National Socialists because they were well...socialist."

Only in rhetoric; never in reality.

Once in power, they led like fascist dictators, and either jailed or killed the leading socialists. You know ... the actual, real ones.

Calling them Socialists is on par with calling Saddam's guards Republicans.

#41 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-09 03:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

That depends on who is getting to define reality. According to some, all social programs are socialism, and the Nazis were not short on those.

#42 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-09 06:15 PM | Reply

" That depends on who is getting to define reality."

How about we go with the definition of the activity, rather than the wording in the name?

The folks in question ruled as a fascist dictatorship, never handed over the means of production to the workers, and jailed or executed the Socialists.

#43 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-09 06:25 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I'm for that. You'll find some posters here in this particular thread... not so much lol.

#44 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-09 06:42 PM | Reply

The only reason Americans are stuck on the word socialism is because it was used as as a pejorative, incorrectly by morons at that, for so long people feel like they have to wear it as a badge of honor.

#45 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-09 07:05 PM | Reply

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