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Wednesday, September 08, 2021

Lee Drutman: America's two-party system is broken.

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THE ALL-NIGHT PARTY!! WHOOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

#1 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2021-09-08 09:40 AM | Reply | Funny: 3

As usual, a poor and dubious execution of the good political compass idea. All six of these hypothetical parties are far from the center, so even a slight change in answering the questions could put you in a polar opposite.

#2 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-09-08 02:38 PM | Reply

There are several parties in American politics you can choose from.

Ross Perot, Ralph Nader and Jill Stein are three more notable third party members.

But. Let's look at the reality of the Democratic and Republican parties.

They're both funded by numerous millionaires and billionaires.

It's a rich man's game.

That's where the rest of the parties fall off.

That's the power of capitalism.

#3 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-09-08 02:50 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Ross Perot had no party. Nader hijacked the Green party. Who the hell is Jill Stein?

#4 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2021-09-08 03:05 PM | Reply

Ross Perot is dead. Nader faded into obscurity years ago. Who the hell is Jill Stein?

#5 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-09-08 03:22 PM | Reply

"That's the power of capitalism."

The natural response to that recognition is immediate flight to Cuba.

Of course recognizing that those fleeing capitalism can do so in first class. Those trying to attain it do so in a raft, hoping to make it to Miami.

That's the power of capitalism.

#6 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-08 04:09 PM | Reply

I feel like you need to get the ---- beat out of you by someone who has lived under socialism.

Of course I've never suffered under it. So it's not for me to complain.

That's a privilege reserved for those who have suffered under socialism.

#7 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-08 04:12 PM | Reply

someone who has lived under socialism.

Actual Socialism is a theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

There's been a society like that?

Are we talking about a tribal community?

Which fantasy are you conjuring up?

Name the imaginary socialist society.

You dumb fkkk.

#8 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-09-08 04:23 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

- immediate flight to Cuba.

"Merica! Love it or leave it!'

Never try to bother fixing it.

- suffered under socialism

Obviously referring to the northern European countries, whose people vote themselves the happiest in the world every year.

You know, because all "socialism" is really Marxist Leninist communism, don't 'cha know.

Or maybe you mean the socialist US Military?

"In American society, "social welfare benefits" are often conflated with the theory of and colloquially referred to as "socialism" in a way that's designed to evoke images of the Soviet Union or famine in Mao's China. This intentional muddying of the waters and impoverishment of our vocabulary and thus our understanding has led to fearmongering and red-baiting, leaving us unable to talk about these issues or debate them with the seriousness they deserve."

www.thenation.com

#9 | Posted by Corky at 2021-09-08 04:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

I feel like you need to get the ---- beat out of you by someone who has lived under socialism.
Of course I've never suffered under it. So it's not for me to complain.

#7 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

You live under socialism every single day. Even your employment, by its very structure, is supported by socialism.

"I've never suffered under it."

No. You've prospered under it. As have most people in countries that live under democratic socialism. Cuba IS NOT an example of what progressives and liberals in the U.S. are trying to achieve.

#10 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2021-09-08 05:37 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

It has been said: "Anything to the Left of hunting the homeless and the poor for sport is communism/socialism". That pretty much stands with the current crop of the GOP/Fascist.

#11 | Posted by DMTDust at 2021-09-08 06:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

#3 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

That is a succinct description of our political situation. Until we can get the money out of politics, politics will be all about the money. Citizens United!

#12 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-08 06:31 PM | Reply

If America Had Six Parties, Which Would You Belong To?

Whichever one says corporations aren't people, rich people should pay more taxes, healthcare should be free, climate change is real, but "white" doesn't mean evil and "male" doesn't mean rapist.

Is that a party?

#13 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 07:41 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It should be.

#14 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2021-09-08 07:45 PM | Reply

Whichever one says corporations aren't people, rich people should pay more taxes, healthcare should be free, climate change is real, but "white" doesn't mean evil and "male" doesn't mean rapist.

If it also says organized religion can't practice or meddle in politics, and have to pay taxes like anyone else, I'm in.

Got a snappy name?

#15 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-08 08:24 PM | Reply

Got a snappy name?

#15 | Posted by El_Buscador

The Bernie Sanders Party.

#16 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 09:33 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Still none.

#17 | Posted by LostAngeles at 2021-09-08 10:22 PM | Reply

The one with the best beer.

#18 | Posted by jakester at 2021-09-08 10:51 PM | Reply

Any party that is anti-libbie dem, you know, those idiots who are totally screwing up our country.

#19 | Posted by MSgt at 2021-09-08 11:44 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

The moderate Conservative party. The only one that makes any sense.

#20 | Posted by phesterOBoyle at 2021-09-09 07:58 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Never try to bother fixing it.

It isnt broken.

#21 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-09 09:30 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#21

He postulated that it was.

You have yet to respond substantively to the article in 91, here or on the other thread where you were asked to.

#22 | Posted by Corky at 2021-09-09 11:43 AM | Reply

Russia loves quizes like this.

#23 | Posted by Tor at 2021-09-09 11:50 AM | Reply

Any party that is anti-libbie dem, you know, those idiots who are totally screwing up our country.

#19 | Posted by MSgt

In what way exactly?

By denying climate change for 40 years and then killing a half million americans with lies and incompetence?

By trying to end democracy and replace it with fascism?

You live in a bubble of delusion.

#24 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-09 11:52 AM | Reply

The moderate Conservative party. The only one that makes any sense.

#20 | Posted by phesterOBoyle

...to nazis and klansmen.

#25 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-09 11:53 AM | Reply

I would belong to the Fight For Your Right to Party

#26 | Posted by pumpkinhead at 2021-09-09 12:03 PM | Reply

"You live under socialism every single day. Even your employment, by its very structure, is supported by socialism."

No. My wages are funded by taxpayer dollars. Every last cent I am paid was created as a function of capitalism. It was other people's money that was taken and given to me for service to the government. In a socialist economy, the government wouldn't have had to take money from someone else, because it would not have been theirs to begin with.

"No. You've prospered under it. As have most people in countries that live under democratic socialism. Cuba IS NOT an example of what progressives and liberals in the U.S. are trying to achieve."

So...I get what you're saying...but you're not describing socialism. You're describing capitalism. Socialism is a system where the workers own the means of production. When tried, it's always be an abysmal failure. The more realistic vision of socialism is the Soviet model, where the government owns and manages the means of production on behalf of the workers. Which really only resulted in a less efficient system that provided the nomenklatura with a slightly higher standard of living than the average tovarish.

Which is what astounds me. History has no positive examples of socialism. You're not promoting socialism. So why are you so bent on calling what you are promoting socialism? Especially when there are still socialists out there who advocate for the elimination of capitalism and free society?

#27 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-09 02:50 PM | Reply | Funny: 3

"...to nazis and klansmen."

National Socialism is a socialist party.

You call them center right?

#28 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-09 02:54 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

- what astounds me

Most things, apparently.

- National Socialism is a socialist party.

Same myths, same bummer.

www.britannica.com

#29 | Posted by Corky at 2021-09-09 03:07 PM | Reply

The moderate Conservative party.

Doesn't exist.

Most moderates conservatives consider themselves independents these days.

#30 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-09-09 04:19 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

National Socialism is a socialist party.

That's probably why they started by killing all the socialists.

#31 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-09-09 04:20 PM | Reply

In a socialist economy, the government wouldn't have had to take money from someone else, because it would not have been theirs to begin with.

#27 | Posted by madbomber

Then your cult needs to stop saying democrats want socialism, because no democrat leader has ever proposed a system like that.

#32 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-09 04:43 PM | Reply

So why are you so bent on calling what you are promoting socialism? Especially when there are still socialists out there who advocate for the elimination of capitalism and free society?

#27 | Posted by madbomber

Why are you so bent on the word SOCIALISM?

So you can use that word to terrify americans about what dems want to do in america, even though americans agree with the things dems want to do - free healthcare and education, and higher taxes on the rich and corporations. THAT is the "socialism" that dems want. But you have to lie and say they want to take everyone's property and nationalize industries and blah blah blah venezuela.

You're playing semantic games to avoid the truth about what your party wants for the country in comparison to what dems want, because most people want what dems want.

#33 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-09 04:47 PM | Reply

Why are you so bent on the word SOCIALISM?

He's a troll and it's his dinner bell.

#34 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-09-09 05:06 PM | Reply

#3

It's actually not a function of capitalism that we only have 2 viable parties. The parties in power get to make the election rules they get to determine ballot access they determine the rules for public campaign funds as well as private donations.

#35 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2021-09-09 05:14 PM | Reply

That's probably why they started by killing all the socialists.
#31 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2021-09-09 04:20 PM | FLAG:

The Socialists were killing other Socialists, that's not new. It's what Socialists do.

#36 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-09 07:01 PM | Reply

Feels like we all need a group viewing of Death of Stalin. It's extremely funny.

#37 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-09 07:03 PM | Reply

The only reason Americans are stuck on the word socialism is because it was used as as a pejorative, incorrectly by morons at that, for so long people feel like they have to wear it as a badge of honor.

#45 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG AT 2021-09-09 07:05 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

#38 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-09 07:07 PM | Reply

" It's what Socialists do."

Only when they don't want to be Socialists anymore.

#39 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-09 07:09 PM | Reply

Only when they don't want to be Socialists anymore.

#39 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2021-09-09 07:09 PM | FLAG:

That's an argument to take up with Socialists. They are more mellow nowadays. If you went all Trotsky on them back in the day somebody would try to murder you with an ice axe.

#40 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-09 07:14 PM | Reply

" That's an argument to take up with Socialists."

I think history proves my point quite well. Socialists who murdered socialists to get into power weren't doing it to run governments as Socialists.

#41 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-09 07:28 PM | Reply

"No True Scotsman", but Socialism is just a pathway to Communism comrade. Killing the other Socialists, and then the Capitalists, is the journey of Socialism.

#42 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-09 07:40 PM | Reply

Socialism is just a pathway to Communism comrade. Killing the other Socialists, and then the Capitalists, is the journey of Socialism.

#42 | Posted by sitzkrieg

yeah that's why canada, australia, new zealand, finland, iceland, normway, sweden, switzerland, denmark, scotland, germany, france and all the other first world socialist countries are hurdling towards communism so fast isn't it dumbass? They'll get there as soon as they can finish killing the capitalists. Q told me so.

#43 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-09 08:03 PM | Reply

Most moderates conservatives consider themselves independents these days.
#30 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

And are voting Democrat. Because even if we disagree with the more liberal extremes of the Democrats, the Republicans have moved so far into Crazyville the terms Left and Right don't apply anymore.

#44 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-09 08:27 PM | Reply

And are voting Democrat. Because even if we disagree with the more liberal extremes of the Democrats, the Republicans have moved so far into Crazyville the terms Left and Right don't apply anymore.

#44 | Posted by El_Buscador

Maybe you. Most of you are still making excuses to keep voting for the fascist terrorist party, like "I don't like trump, but dems are going to turn us into communist venezeula!"

#45 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-09 08:58 PM | Reply

My brother-in-law, the business owner, the multimillionaire, the life long Republican, had enough with Donnie Fail. He ain't going back?

#46 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2021-09-09 08:58 PM | Reply

#45 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

I might talk some smack when the Democrats piss me off, but until the Republicans stop trying to create the Theocratic States of America I'm done with them.

#47 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-09 09:50 PM | Reply

#47 - "but this dude no one has ever seen who has a son with gaping holes in his hands told me...."

#48 | Posted by jakester at 2021-09-09 10:18 PM | Reply

""No True Scotsman", but Socialism is just a pathway to Communism comrade."

Communism advocates no private property, as well as handing over the means of production to the workers.

One step at a time, shall we? Can we all agree Communism is impossible without going through Socialism...

...and we're not there yet?

#49 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-09 11:29 PM | Reply

"In a socialist economy, the government wouldn't have had to take money from someone else, because it would not have been theirs to begin with."

That depends on the source of the income/wealth. If it's natural resources, there's a chance it's a net positive. It also possible the country is a net positive when it comes to tourist dollars.

But ultimately, you're using movable goalposts. If the country depends on the natural resource of oil, and citizens each get paid $300K/yr, is that socialism, or capitalism?

Yes to each, depending on your point to make. A completely "socialist" society has many capitalistic aspects. Just like our capitalistic society has a lot of socialistic aspects.

Pretending the choice is binary is a fool's errand.

#50 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-09 11:38 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 2

Pretending the choice is binary is a fool's errand.

Look who you're addressing.

Shoe... foot... fit...

#51 | Posted by tonyroma at 2021-09-10 12:01 AM | Reply

Can we all agree Communism is impossible without going through Socialism...

...and we're not there yet?

#49 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2021-09-09 11:29 PM | FLAG:

That is 101 on the theory. Marx figured it would take 500 years as a Socialist to make it to Communism.

Funny part is so many people calling capitalist countries as socialist. No moves to abolish private property there, just a high tax capitalist welfare state.

#52 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-10 07:24 AM | Reply

Just like our capitalistic society has a lot of socialistic aspects.

#50 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2021-09-09 11:38 PM | FLAG:

Only if you pretend socialism is a welfare program. Private property protections are quite strong and not going anywhere.

Threads like this make me feel like the only people that paid attention in PoliSci or bothered to read Marx were the Afghanistan veterans arguing with the prof about nation building.

#53 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-10 08:13 AM | Reply

That's what Republicans have done for decades. Pretend welfare programs are socialism to use it as a slur and call people commies.

#54 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-10 08:14 AM | Reply

Clown,

"They're both funded by numerous millionaires and billionaires.
It's a rich man's game."

I agree with you.

#55 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-09-10 10:33 AM | Reply

" Only if you pretend socialism is a welfare program."

Using that barometer, not having toll booths at the end of each street is a welfare program.

To exist, economies need a mixture of both. Fire protection and libraries are socialistic loss leaders, on purpose.

#56 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-10 10:46 AM | Reply

"Why are you so bent on the word SOCIALISM?"

Ask Askew Bernie or AOL to clear that up for you.

#57 | Posted by phesterOBoyle at 2021-09-10 10:47 AM | Reply

Communism and socialism use the same playbook.
The title is:
All for vun, vun for all.

#58 | Posted by phesterOBoyle at 2021-09-10 10:49 AM | Reply

To exist, economies need a mixture of both. Fire protection and libraries are socialistic loss leaders, on purpose.

#56 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2021-09-10 10:46 AM | FLAG:

Neither of those have anything to do with Workers owning the means of production nor the abolition of private property comrade.

Marx is rolling over in his grave.

#59 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-10 11:00 AM | Reply

" Neither of those have anything to do with Workers owning the means of production"

True. It's just the collective, deciding what's best for society, and collecting taxes from all, for the greater general benefit.

#60 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-10 11:21 AM | Reply

Are public parks welfare?

#61 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-10 11:22 AM | Reply

Your example is Democratic decision making in a Democratic society taxing capitalism in a mostly-free market.

That is incompatible with Socialism which requires a One Party State.

#62 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-10 11:57 AM | Reply

Funny part is so many people calling capitalist countries as socialist. No moves to abolish private property there, just a high tax capitalist welfare state.

#52 | Posted by sitzkrieg

Funny part is so many liars claim the type of socialism democrats want is the kind you find in china or venezuela, instead of what they actually want which is the kind found in Britain or Canada - where people are happier and healthier and less stressed about dying in the gutter because they got sick.

#63 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-10 12:04 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

If it makes folks happy to call Universal Healthcare Socialist, have at it. That's where we should start.

It's kind of hilarious, I live in a heavily red state, but we have several state-owned and -run businesses, including a very successful bank. I can't recall hearing anyone refer to them as socialist entities, which they are.

#64 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-10 03:01 PM | Reply

It's kind of hilarious, I live in a heavily red state, but we have several state-owned and -run businesses, including a very successful bank. I can't recall hearing anyone refer to them as socialist entities, which they are.

#64 | Posted by El_Buscador

Yeah that's because you live in a heavily red state. Do you expect any of them to actually understand anything? All they can do is repeat what they hear on tucker carlson. Like a pet bird.

#65 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-10 03:11 PM | Reply

#27 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

It's impossible to debate with someone who has no understanding of differences and definitions of ideology.

#66 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2021-09-10 04:33 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

If we had 6 parties I don't know which one I would pick. What I do know is it wouldn't be the Democratic Party or the GOP.

#67 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-10 04:56 PM | Reply

If we had 6 parties I don't know which one I would pick. What I do know is it wouldn't be the Democratic Party or the GOP.

You can currently chose to vote for members from 9 political parties.

www.aascu.org

Obviously only two will be available for most elections.

Because the other 7 don't have enough money to buy representation.

#68 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-09-10 05:38 PM | Reply

Obviously only two will be available for most elections.
Because the other 7 don't have enough money to buy representation.

#68 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2021-09-10 05:38 PM |

Yep. It sucks.

#69 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-10 05:39 PM | Reply

By the way.

There's a test in the link for #68 which will tell you the political party that would best represent you.

#70 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-09-10 05:40 PM | Reply

#70 Cool. I'll check it out. Seriously. Thank you.

#71 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-10 05:42 PM | Reply

#71

No problem.

Have fun.

It told me I'm a Disaffected Democrat.

Which. Wasn't surprising or informative.

#72 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-09-10 06:03 PM | Reply

The Socialists were killing other Socialists, that's not new. It's what Socialists do.
#36 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

You're saying the national socialist party, the Nazis.

Were killing socialist in Germany.

Because the Nazis were socialists.

You must then also believe the Nazis were Jewish.

(Hey. Rumors are, Hitler himself, actually was!)

#73 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-09-10 06:29 PM | Reply

Clown,

I am Market Skeptic Republican.

Anyone else care to share what they got?

I will say I think some questions were a little hard to answer.

The choices were a few times 2 extremes both of which I disliked.

#74 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-09-11 11:25 AM | Reply

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