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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Wednesday, September 08, 2021

The wealthiest 1 percent of Americans are the nation's most egregious tax evaders, failing to pay as much as $163 billion in owed taxes per year, according to a new Treasury Department report released on Wednesday.

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I have no idea why the #CivilianClimateCorp is being brought up but we really do need it.

#1 | Posted by Tor at 2021-09-08 12:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Protecting the 1% from paying their fair share is what republicans and moderate dems like Mancin are all about.

#2 | Posted by FedUpWithPols at 2021-09-08 01:18 PM | Reply

Flat tax. One tax rate. For everyone. No deductions. Everyone pays.

But liberals like things "complex".

#3 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 01:23 PM | Reply | Funny: 8

Complex make Boaz head hurt?

#4 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2021-09-08 01:26 PM | Reply | Funny: 2 | Newsworthy 6

have you ever got a job from someone making min wage?

#5 | Posted by Sniper at 2021-09-08 01:29 PM | Reply | Funny: 2 | Newsworthy 1

Complex make Boaz head hurt?

#4 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

Keep It Simple Stupid. Always works.

#6 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 01:32 PM | Reply | Funny: 3

Tax brackets confuse Boaz.

Tax brackets bad.

Flat tax is a scam.

#7 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-09-08 01:40 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Since they own congress who makes the tax laws, is this a surprise? I'm actually surprised it's not more.

Public campaign financing fixes that. A dollar or two from every American a year would fix that problem. But of course that would require a law or Constitutional amendment and congress is not likely to pass legislation that is not in the best interest of the people who fund their campaigns.

#8 | Posted by jakester at 2021-09-08 01:40 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Keep It Simple Stupid. Always works.

Unfortunately, not-liberals get that mixed up with keep it stupid, simple, and we wind up having arguments about how unfair it is to tax the "job creators" with Repubicans for decades instead.

#9 | Posted by chuffy at 2021-09-08 01:40 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

Keep It Simple Stupid. Always works.

#6 | Posted by boaz

Yeah that's why riding a horse is so much better than driving a tesla.

Just because stupid people want stupid solutions doesn't mean stupid solutions are better.

It just means you're too stupid to see why being stupid is bad.

#10 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 01:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 11

Flat tax. One tax rate. For everyone. No deductions. Everyone pays.

But liberals like things "complex".

#3 | Posted by boaz

Always funny to see a broke loser arguing to pay more so billionaires can pay less.

#11 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 01:44 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 8

#3 | POSTED BY BOAZ

I do like the idea of everyone paying the same rate. On all forms of income. It would be interesting to see what the numbers actually look like. I don't think most of us would see a significant difference. The uber-wealthy would pay a lot more on average. The uber-poor would pay a little more on average.

According to this link www.statista.com total individual income tax revenues from 2020 were 1.6 trillion. The 163 billion referenced in the thread article would be about 10% of that number.

Total personal income in 2020 was about 19.7 trillion. www.statista.com

Assuming that source is reasonably accurate, a flat tax rate of 8.12%, no deductions, would produce the same amount of tax revenue. And think of all the money saved on accountants and attorneys. For me and my wife combined, that would actually be pretty close to what our 2020 total tax was.

#12 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-08 01:49 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Public campaign financing fixes that. A dollar or two from every American a year would fix that problem. But of course that would require a law or Constitutional amendment and congress is not likely to pass legislation that is not in the best interest of the people who fund their campaigns.

#8 | Posted by jakester

YOu're getting close to making a point. Now finish it - which politicians aren't going to allow that to pass? Both sides EQUALLY? Or is one side resisting it more than the other?

#13 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 01:49 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Assuming that source is reasonably accurate, a flat tax rate of 8.12%, no deductions, would produce the same amount of tax revenue.

#12 | Posted by El_Buscador

Yeah but more of it would come from the poor and less from the rich. Do you think the problem we face today is the poor have too much money and the rich don't have enough?

#14 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 01:50 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

Do you think the problem we face today is the poor have too much money and the rich don't have enough?
#14 | Posted by SpeakSoftly

Rs think that is exactly the problem. But they'll fix that by cutting the IRS budget even more than they already have.

#15 | Posted by SomebodyElse at 2021-09-08 01:57 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Yeah but more of it would come from the poor and less from the rich.

Nope. If everyone is paying the same percentage, that's fair. That's justice.

Do you think the problem we face today is the poor have too much money and the rich don't have enough?

Actually, it's none of anyone's business. Money is a private asset. The rich can always make less. The poor can always make more. It's the American way.

#16 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 02:00 PM | Reply | Funny: 6

But they'll fix that by cutting the IRS budget even more than they already have.

There should be no IRS, except to send out notices on how much taxes was taken. No refunds, no nothing. Everyone has skin in the game. Everyone pays.

Then we could have universal healthcare and all the other goodies liberals and bums want.

#17 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 02:01 PM | Reply | Funny: 4

#14 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

Considering the ridiculously low effective tax rate the uber-rich currently pay, I would disagree the country would get less from the rich. www.forbes.com The article in the thread is about the top 1% evading what would effectively be 10% of all tax revenues. That's a big chunk right there.

I do think a lot of the problems we face today in this country stem from how people of different classes view one another, each believing the other is getting an advantage over them at their expense.

#18 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-08 02:08 PM | Reply

"Protecting the 1% from paying their fair share is what republicans and moderate dems like Mancin are all about."

I guess you missed the memo last year when progressives stopped talking about the top 1% and started focusing on the top 0.1% and 0.01% instead.

#19 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-09-08 02:12 PM | Reply

Nope. If everyone is paying the same percentage, that's fair.

#16 | Posted by boaz

Really? So you losing half your money affects your life the same as bill gates losing half his money? He'll feel the same level of pain and have to make all the same reductions in lifestyle that you would?

#20 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 02:15 PM | Reply

Actually, it's none of anyone's business. Money is a private asset. The rich can always make less. The poor can always make more. It's the American way.

#16 | Posted by boaz

No the american way is the rich brainwashing poor losers like you to vote for higher taxes for yourself and lower taxes for the rich.

#21 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 02:16 PM | Reply

I guess you missed the memo last year when progressives stopped talking about the top 1% and started focusing on the top 0.1% and 0.01% instead.

#19 | Posted by sentinel

Oh here's our self proclaimed "democrat" again doing his "democrat" thing.

#22 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 02:17 PM | Reply

I do think a lot of the problems we face today in this country stem from how people of different classes view one another, each believing the other is getting an advantage over them at their expense.

#18 | Posted by El_Buscador

Yeah but one of those perspectives is reality and the other one is propaganda and paranoia.

#23 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 02:18 PM | Reply

There should be no IRS
#17 | Posted by boaz a

"If men were angels, no government would be necessary."

James Madison

#24 | Posted by SomebodyElse at 2021-09-08 02:20 PM | Reply

#18...When someone writes something like this....

"Amazon founder and CEO Jeff Bezos paid a true tax rate of 0.98% as his wealth grew by a staggering $99 billion between 2014 and 2018; he reported just $4.22 billion in reported income during the same period."

They are advocating for a wealth tax. Not a bad concept, but one we already have in the estate tax which the GOP is continually trying to kill.

Sure, put an annual wealth tax of 5% on everyone and watch the howling start. 2 families in America own more than the bottom 40%.

Average net worth in America is $750,000...so it looks like everyone is doing great right?

Median net is $121,500....now it doesn't look as good.

#25 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-09-08 02:23 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

Somehow GOPhers and FoxNews never seem to be as offended by rich people evading taxes as they are about dirt poor people receiving unemployment benefits or food stamps. Why is that?

#26 | Posted by moder8 at 2021-09-08 02:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 7

#23 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

There are more than two perspectives. Standing behind a wall of self-proclaimed righteousness and indignation, pointing a finger at everyone on the other side, is not working on the problem. Shutting down everything "the other side" has to say because they did a,b,and c doesn't mean they might not be right about x,y, and z. I really think the main reason politics has become so polarized is because people who disagree will spend all day shouting at one another without spending one minute trying to talk together. Our whole damn country needs some family counseling.

#27 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-08 02:30 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

So you losing half your money affects your life the same as bill gates losing half his money?

Not my concern. And it shouldnt be yours or Bill Gates.. That's the problem with poor people such as yourself. Always worried about what's in your neighbor's pocket.

#28 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 02:39 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#27,

I've actually put up a solution. But -------- like Speak cant get out of his liberal speak long enough to actually look at it.

And yes, everyone would pay more under a flat tax. And they should. The rich would pay more and the poor would pay more. But that's life in a Republic where we need health care.

No one should be paying more as a percentage of their income in this nation. We are all equal. We need to be like it.

#29 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 02:42 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

There are more than two perspectives. Standing behind a wall of self-proclaimed righteousness and indignation, pointing a finger at everyone on the other side, is not working on the problem. Shutting down everything "the other side" has to say because they did a,b,and c doesn't mean they might not be right about x,y, and z. I really think the main reason politics has become so polarized is because people who disagree will spend all day shouting at one another without spending one minute trying to talk together. Our whole damn country needs some family counseling.

#27 | Posted by El_Buscador

If we are debating who should be allowed to drive the bus we're on, and one driver is a drunken 8 year old, do they deserve a turn at the wheel? Do they even deserve any input on where we should head?

It would be nice if we still lived in a world where both political parties were led by reasonable adults who lived in the same reality. But we no longer live in that world. Pretending we do only helps the crazies drag us further off the rails.

We have one party run by normal adults and politicians, and one party run by a lunatic con man while the rest of the party helps defend and sell his lunacy. Help the adult party fix our problems. Stop wasting your time for the fascist babies to cooperate.

#30 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 02:42 PM | Reply

So you losing half your money affects your life the same as bill gates losing half his money?

Not my concern. And it shouldnt be yours or Bill Gates.. That's the problem with poor people such as yourself. Always worried about what's in your neighbor's pocket.

#28 | Posted by boaz

Right. The explanation of why a flat tax isn't fair isn't your concern. Logic isn't your concern. You've got your mind made up and flat tax is simple, and that's your only concern.

#31 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 02:42 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Boaz, you are the poster child for selfish and self absorbed greed. If my neighbor is in danger of losing his home or going hungry while 1%ers are robbing the nation blind then yes, that is all of our concern. And you are not much of a human being if you don't get it.

#32 | Posted by moder8 at 2021-09-08 02:43 PM | Reply

And yes, everyone would pay more under a flat tax. And they should. The rich would pay more and the poor would pay more. But that's life in a Republic where we need health care.

#29 | Posted by boaz

You suck at math. If everyone is paying more, the gov is just going to collect way more money.

Flat tax is promoted by the rich to get the poor to pay more so the rich can pay less. And poor suckers like yourself get seduced by the simplicity of the plan because it's all your simple brain can understand. But the rich you are manipulated by understand it far better than you.

#33 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 02:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Boaz lives the socialist dream... he can afford to be flippant about taxes.

#34 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2021-09-08 02:49 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Boaz,

I don't agree with flat tax.

I believe lower tax brackets should get a break.

Regardless how you figure it the wealthy will always find ways to circumvent the system.

That is unavoidable.

#35 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-09-08 02:58 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Boaz,

Creative accounting.

#36 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-09-08 03:02 PM | Reply

The explanation of why a flat tax isn't fair isn't your concern.

No one has made a good explanation.

#37 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 03:14 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Flat tax is promoted by the rich to get the poor to pay more so the rich can pay less.

--------. Everyone should be paying the same percentage. The rich will always pay more because they make more.

That's stupid saying the rich will pay less under a flat tax. And stupid.

#38 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 03:16 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

Progressive tax rates are as American as apple pie.... unfortunately, so are tax breaks for the wealthy, who pay the GOP, mostly, to create and keep those breaks.

Just imagine if the Boazs of the world had to feed, house, clothe, and provide medical care for all their family members, as in "the good ol' days". Prior to the New Deal and the Great Society programs, those family members suffered greatly and died young.

And btw, the reason we have those programs is because the idea that capitalism is a pure meritocracy are... fantasies made up by very wealthy corporations and individuals to feed to poor people so they will vote for Republican policies.

#39 | Posted by Corky at 2021-09-08 03:17 PM | Reply

"First, while there is no doubt that many countries that have adopted the flat tax have had booming economies, there is no actual proof that the flat tax is the reason why these nations have grown. After all, many of these places were Communist nations behind the Iron Curtain. Once the Soviet Union collapsed they were able to open up their economies to investment and had an easier time trading with the developed countries in the west.

In addition, a flat tax may not be as fair as one would think. A gradual tax system does allow for things like wealth redistribution, which many have argued is a major benefit to society. And a flat tax could also give middle-class families an extra burden. If someone making one million per year has to pay 18% of his income in taxes, he still has netted $820,000 for the year, a figure which still has great purchasing power.

But a person making $50,000 per year is left with $41,000 per year; that difference can influence fiscal decisions, like purchasing a new car versus a used car, whether to place a down payment on a house or affording either a state school or private college, extremely tough for people who make closer to the national median income level.

In addition, when a group of countries near each other enact a flat tax, it creates a race towards the bottom; in order to compete, nations must keep on lowering their tax rates, a problem which could lead to fiscal instability.

Lastly, in the wake of the 2008 recession, many countries that adopted a flat tax have suffered greatly."

www.investopedia.com

Even Investopedia ian't enamored of this idea.

#40 | Posted by Corky at 2021-09-08 03:23 PM | Reply

Boaz, you are the poster child for selfish and self absorbed greed

Yea, God forbid I want to keep what I earn and it's mine and I want to stop slobs from looking over my shoulder at how much money I have.

#41 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 03:26 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Just imagine if the Boazs of the world had to feed, house, clothe, and provide medical care for all their family members, as in "the good ol' days".

I'm doing that now. You see, I'm a man. Not like alot of girly men today. :)

#42 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 03:27 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

I believe lower tax brackets should get a break.

I dont.

#43 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 03:28 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Shut up, sharecropper. Nobody cares.

#44 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2021-09-08 03:28 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

A gradual tax system does allow for things like wealth redistribution

THAT's the whole problem here. That's what liberals want, wealth redistribution. A flat tax stops that --------. Makes everyone pay and feel the pain of what they are paying for.

#45 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 03:29 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

- how much money I have

"No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." - JC

#46 | Posted by Corky at 2021-09-08 03:29 PM | Reply

- I'm doing that now.

Sure you are... and so can everyone else. I mean, you weren't at least somewhat lucky along the way, right?

#47 | Posted by Corky at 2021-09-08 03:31 PM | Reply

If someone making one million per year has to pay 18% of his income in taxes, he still has netted $820,000 for the year, a figure which still has great purchasing power.

So? Why do you care? That's their business. They deserve that purchasing power because they earned it. Why are you passing judgement on what they can buy?

But a person making $50,000 per year is left with $41,000 per year; that difference can influence fiscal decisions, like purchasing a new car versus a used car, whether to place a down payment on a house or affording either a state school or private college, extremely tough for people who make closer to the national median income level.

ok, again, not my problem. Of course it should affect their decisions. Like maybe, I need to make more money. Yea, it's tough, but it's a consequence of not preparing for life or accepting where you are in life.

#48 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 03:32 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#46,

Also was said, "If you dont work, you dont eat".

And I'm not "serving" money. You are making alot of assumptions Corky.

#49 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 03:33 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

" No deductions. "

You've just shut down half the businesses in America.

Nice werk!

#50 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-08 03:40 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Flat taxes assume the billionaire uses no more of the public infrastructure than the minimum wage worker.

Ludicrous on its face.

#51 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-08 03:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

- they earned it.

Most well-known billionaires admit that they would not be so without an extraordinary amount of luck. Because as I said, capitalism isn't a meritocracy which word you can look up.

Bezos, Zuckerberg, and Buffet talk about it here...

www.cnbc.com

- not my problem

Yes, we know. Other people don't matter to Randian Objectivists.

And you obviously love the money... it makes you feel better than other people. That's not an assumption, it's a matter of reading what you say.

#52 | Posted by Corky at 2021-09-08 03:46 PM | Reply

#30 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

I'm completely with you on the current leadership of the Republican party. No argument. And there are a lot of Republicans who are full-on Cuckoo for Trump. There are also a lot of Republicans who are reasonable people with a different perspective.

At the risk of being branded a 'both-sider' I can say a few similar things about the Democratic Party, and I've been voting just about solid D since 2004. I'm not in awe of the leadership, and the extreme wing is way further left than I'd ever care to go. I'm not blindly supportive of the Democrats just because I voted for them.

Very few thinks boil down to just one perspective or another. In your example asking if the drunken 8-year-old should drive the bus, of course not. But is that the only choice?

#53 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-08 03:46 PM | Reply

" The rich will always pay more because they make more."

Not necessarily true.

Everybody is arguing about tax RATES. That covers about 3 pages. The other 74,997 define taxable income.

For example, no deductions for the grocery store? No writeoffs for labor, rent, refrigeration, or product?!? GTFOH.

#54 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-08 03:49 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

What advocates of a flat tax fail to understand is that for the past forty years, the tax rate that EVERYONE pays (until the trump tax scam) was approximately 23%. Everyone. Between sales tax, property tax, income tax, payroll tax, gasoline and excise taxes it is 23%. The trump tax scam slanted that so the very very top got a huge tax cut. But that is okay in wing ding world. Cutting taxes for the very top just means that it will tinkle down to them which is ---------.

Now they advocate for going to a flat tax with NO deductions. Then there is no incentive for businesses to pay for health insurance. No incentive for people to donate to charity. No incentive for retirement plans.

People at the lower end of the income brackets already cannot afford rent, food, housing, saving for retirement and transportation so the obvious answer is to take 20% of their income for a flat tax. Now they can not live on 80% of what they were taking home before. Meanwhile the uber wealthy get a 30 to 50% tax cut.

Of course the wing dings love it.

#55 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-09-08 04:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Actually, it's none of anyone's business. Money is a private asset. T

#16 | POSTED BY BOAZ

You are so wrong, it is not funny. Try not reporting your income to the government, see what happens.

#56 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 04:22 PM | Reply

Boaz, once again, exposes his childish view of the world. Dude, you really should grow up.

#57 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 04:26 PM | Reply

Yea, it's tough, but it's a consequence of not preparing for life or accepting where you are in life.
#48 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2021-09-08 03:32 PM

People "not accepting where they are in life" motivates ALOT of criminals. Why are you a criminal apologist?

#58 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 04:27 PM | Reply

THAT's the whole problem here. That's what liberals want, wealth redistribution. A flat tax stops that --------. Makes everyone pay and feel the pain of what they are paying for.
#45 | POSTED BY BOAZ

Paris Hilton and Donald Trump Jr. thank you for your support.

#59 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 04:28 PM | Reply

I'm doing that now. You see, I'm a man. Not like alot of girly men today. :)

#42 | POSTED BY BOAZ

Once again you prove your ignorance.

www.statista.com

This statistic shows the median household income of gay couples (male-male) in the United States from 2015 to 2019. In 2019, the median household income of gay couples in the U.S. amounted to 114,182 U.S. dollars.

while

The national median family income for the United States for FY 2021 is $79,900, an increase over the national median family income in FY 2020 of $78,500. When twice the change in national median incomes is greater than five percent, this higher value is used as the cap on increases in the calculation of income limits.

i may turn gay just for the pay raise.

#60 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 04:32 PM | Reply

No one has made an explanation I can understand. Cause I'm stupid. And childish. And greedy. And not too bright.

#37 | POSTED BY BOAZ

FTFY, free of charge.

#61 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 04:35 PM | Reply

" Assuming that source is reasonably accurate, a flat tax rate of 8.12%, no deductions, would produce the same amount of tax revenue."

Of income tax revenue, which is less than half of annual revenue. And don't forget payroll taxes. Once that's done, there's still state taxes, and possibly local as well, all of which feed off the Federal 1040.

23% seems to be the consensus.

Of course, the last thing the politicians want to show the taxpayers is everything on one bill.

#62 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-08 04:39 PM | Reply

No one should be paying more as a percentage of their income in this nation. We are all equal. We need to be like it.

#29 | POSTED BY BOAZ

You see Boaz, this is where you are wrong, so very wrong. We are not all equal. Some of us have more power than others and as a result get to write the rules and those rules favor those that write the rules.

You think that an inner city single mother working 3 jobs has the same power as a CEO at a large investment firm? Who do you think writes the rules that govern their respective lives? Who benefits more from writing the rules on how each lives their lives?

Until you can provide an HONEST answer to those questions, you are hopeless.

#63 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 04:40 PM | Reply

So you losing half your money affects your life the same as bill gates losing half his money?
Not my concern. And it shouldnt be yours or Bill Gates.. That's the problem with poor people such as yourself. Always worried about what's in your neighbor's pocket.

#28 | POSTED BY BOAZ

BTW, where do corporations fit into your calculations? An employee gets a salary and under your scheme would pay a flat percentage of his income as tax. But an owner of the corporation can give himself a small salary and live on the benefits of the corporation, i.e. corporate car, corporate housing, expense account, etc.

Just one example of how the rich would NOT pay the same "rate" as the poor.

We really shouldn't have to explain simple things like this to you.

And what about the corporations themselves? Do they pay a tax? well alot of the public expense goes to upkeep and support of corporations, i.e. trash, roads, telecommunications, national security, etc. I suppose according to you, they should pay nothing. Despite getting an incredible amount of help from the public.

You really are a child.

#64 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 04:46 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"If men were angels, no government would be necessary."
James Madison
#24 | POSTED BY SOMEBODYELSE A

"James Madison? Who is that commie Pinko!?"

-Boaz

#65 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 04:48 PM | Reply

Boaz

"No one should be paying more as a percentage of their income in this nation"

Of course they should.

It's a moral obligation.

The rich feed off the labor of others.

#66 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-09-08 04:50 PM | Reply

Boaz,

And I'm no flaming liberal.

I believe in fairness.

It's fair to provide tax breaks to lower brackets.

#67 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2021-09-08 04:53 PM | Reply

Flat taxes assume the billionaire uses no more of the public infrastructure than the minimum wage worker.

And you are assuming the minimum wage worker doesnt have the opportunity to use the infrastructure as well.

The other 74,997 define taxable income.

And it needs to be thrown out.

For example, no deductions for the grocery store?

No.

No writeoffs for labor, rent, refrigeration, or product?!?

No. You think national healthcare is going to pay for itself?

#68 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 04:55 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

If 'corporations are people, my friend' then they should be taxed like individuals. Fuggem..

#69 | Posted by HeeHaw at 2021-09-08 04:56 PM | Reply

You think that an inner city single mother working 3 jobs has the same power as a CEO at a large investment firm?

She did before she became a single mother. She did before she made the choice to have a baby. She had the same opportunity to train to be a CEO just like everyone else.

#70 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 04:56 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Until you can provide an HONEST answer to those questions, you are hopeless.

#63 | Posted by truthhurts

I already have. They just dont jive with your worldview.

#71 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 04:57 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#18 | Posted by El_Buscador

I quit reading but I have to ask, do you understand that roughly 50% of this country effectively does not pay taxes? In the current system many of them see more money coming back to them than they paid in. So a flat tax system would see massive amounts more money coming from them than it would the wealthy.

#72 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2021-09-08 04:58 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

BTW, where do corporations fit into your calculations?

Tax them on income, just like everyone else.

I suppose according to you, they should pay nothing.

I never said that. You are putting words in my mouth just so you can have something bad to say about me.

I said tax EVERYONE. Flat tax. Period. No deductions. NONE.

#73 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 04:59 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

It's a moral obligation.

Morals are left to the individual, not the government to force.

#74 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 04:59 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#54 Boaz has pushed his simplistic fantasy of a flat tax with NO deductions before. It is just as stupid now.

As Danforth said, a flat tax on gross income of any type will devastate low margin businesses. Prices would jump by more than the amount of the taxes as low margin businesses pass thru tax costs, which would be paid by consumers. Everytime a good changed hands in the supply chain the tax would be added. Amazon would love this as it would put its competitors out of business.

Flat taxes will lead to lower taxes on high margin businesses and poor people paying almost double the flat tax rate due to inflation.

Eliminating deductions would mean the flat tax would be a sales tax on financial goods too. Stock exchanges would be hammered. Why would people buy stocks if they knew they would have to pay a double digit sales tax even if the price went down.

#75 | Posted by bored at 2021-09-08 05:00 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It's fair to provide tax breaks to lower brackets.

No, it isnt. We are supposed to be equal adults in this nation. No one should get something the other doesnt, especially when it's paid for by everyone else.

No. You are wrong on this brother.

#76 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 05:00 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Everytime a good changed hands in the supply chain the tax would be added.

sort of like a minimum wage raise, right?

Why would people buy stocks if they knew they would have to pay a double digit sales tax even if the price went down.

WTF are you talking about? They would pay a tax on the income coming off the sale of the stock. They would buy stocks for the same reason they buy them today. To try and make money.

So, if you see why you shouldnt double digit tax and you also see how it hurts, why are you for taxing so much then?

#77 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 05:04 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

You think that an inner city single mother working 3 jobs has the same power as a CEO at a large investment firm?
She did before she became a single mother. She did before she made the choice to have a baby. She had the same opportunity to train to be a CEO just like everyone else.

#70 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2021-09-08 04:56 PM | FLAG:
(CHOOSE)

Until you can provide an HONEST answer to those questions, you are hopeless.

#63 | Posted by truthhurts
I already have. They just dont jive with your worldview.

#71 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT

Then your worldview is built on delusions. The wealthy have more power, plain and simple. And they use that power to enrich themselves, benefiting from things that the poor do not have access to. That is, well self evident. It is the basis of capitalism. And your worldview doesn't understand it.

www.weforum.org

Look at the chart on that website. According to your world view americans are simply, what? Less motivated than their parents? Less talented?

Perhaps you should consider that there is a structural reason why that has happened.

And before you bother going there, the charts are pre-internet and pre-cell phones (though the trend continues) so the problem isn't that the younguns are bad.

#78 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 05:04 PM | Reply

The US Military Is a Socialist Organization
Affordable housing and food, tuition assistance, and universal health care are hallmarks of a social welfare system"and life in the armed forces.

www.thenation.com

That short article, by a military spouse, was pretty obviously written for you, Major B.

Would be a shame if you were too close-minded to read it.

Aw, well

#79 | Posted by Corky at 2021-09-08 05:06 PM | Reply

BTW, where do corporations fit into your calculations?
Tax them on income, just like everyone else.
I suppose according to you, they should pay nothing.
I never said that. You are putting words in my mouth just so you can have something bad to say about me.
I said tax EVERYONE. Flat tax. Period. No deductions. NONE.

#73 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2021-09-08 04:59 PM |

What income? Gross or net?

Cause see here is the rub. You wage slaves are taxed on gross income. How do YOU calculate a corporation's income?

We already tax many if not most corporation's gross income-its called a sales tax.

So, do you mean net income? HA! that is where we are now where they pay none.

Try and be a grown up and explain your answer beyond "I said tax EVERYONE. Flat tax. Period. No deductions. NONE."

#80 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 05:08 PM | Reply

It's a moral obligation.
Morals are left to the individual, not the government to force.

#74 | POSTED BY BOAZ

What was that you were saying about abortion?

#81 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 05:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

In Boaz-land, everyone is smart enough to be a CEO or an MD, and only laziness or poor decisions prevent them from achieving such a position. What a load of crap.

#82 | Posted by HeeHaw at 2021-09-08 05:10 PM | Reply

@75
I wish i could give you all the newsworthy flags Bored, brilliant post

#83 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 05:11 PM | Reply

Look at the chart on that website. According to your world view americans are simply, what? Less motivated than their parents? Less talented?

Today's kids? Yes. Less motivated to get a hard skill. Spoiled. Entitled. A product of a progressvie system. Yes. And that isnt even up for debate, that's a fact.

Perhaps you should consider that there is a structural reason why that has happened.

It's not structural, its cultural.

#79,

As I've told you and many other hardheads like you on this site. There's a difference between signing a contract to work, with an agreed upon compensation package and Socialism.

I'm not educating you idiots any further on that.

#84 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 05:12 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#77 You said flat tax with no deductions. So If I buy and sell a stock 10 times in a year, I would pay the flat tax on every sale that year, even if I didn't make any net income eg the price stayed mostly flat.

If I cut down trees and pay a flat tax when I sell them to the trucking company,
then the trucking company sells them to the mill and pays a flat tax,
then the mill sells them to the big box store and pays a flat tax,
then the big box store sells them to the carpenter and pays a flat tax,
then the carpenter sells them to me for my garage
the flat tax is paid 5 times on the same bit of wood.

That is the stupidity of a flat tax without deductions.

A VAT tax just taxes the gain per transaction.

A flat tax with no deductions is stupid.

#85 | Posted by bored at 2021-09-08 05:12 PM | Reply

No one should get something the other doesnt, especially when it's paid for by everyone else.
No. You are wrong on this brother.

#76 | POSTED BY BOAZ AT 2021-09-08 05:00 PM |

HAHAHAHAHHHAHHAHAHAAHHHAAAHAHAAHAHA

I just can't

#86 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 05:12 PM | Reply

What income? Gross or net?

Net income isnt supposed to be taxed anyway..

#87 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 05:12 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Everybody is arguing about tax RATES. That covers about 3 pages. The other 74,997 define taxable income.

#54 | POSTED BY DANFORTH

That is much of the heart of my debate. Those 74,997 pages are what the uber-wealthy are exploiting in order to effectively pay less than 3.4% income tax, a number I got from the Forbes article I posted in 18. Using the sources I posted in 12, total tax revenue as a percentage of total income was 8.12% in 2020. I looked up and calculated a few other years BT (Before Trump) and got 9.33% in 2010, 8.07% in 2012, and 9.41% in 2015.

And yes, that's only personal income tax. I didn't pull up payroll taxes and corporate income taxes. Looking up total Federal Revenues from the same years I got 2010-2.17T, 2012-2.63T, 2015-3.18T, 2020-3.42T. 2020 was a down year due to COVID, 2019 total Federal Revenues were 3.5T. According to this source www.taxpolicycenter.org Federal Revenue has averaged about 17.4% of GDP over the last 50 years.

And don't even get me going on local property taxes. I'm still fuming from this spring's reassessment.

But back to my point, and the point of the thread article, whether it's a flat rate, eliminating capital gains, or any of a myriad of other options, how do we get the uber-wealthy up to the percentage the rest of us are paying?

#88 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-08 05:13 PM | Reply

Try and be a grown up and explain your answer beyond "I said tax EVERYONE. Flat tax. Period. No deductions. NONE."

Well, if you are too stupid to understand those words, I cant help you. I dont need to explain those simple words.

#89 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 05:13 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

You don't know too many kids, do you Boaz. The kids I know are hardworking, intelligent, motivated. Sort of like most every generation. You are a miserable old man (who acts like a child).

#90 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 05:14 PM | Reply

I would pay the flat tax on every sale that year, even if I didn't make any net income eg the price stayed mostly flat.

No, you would only pay tax on any winnings. Are you people really that stupid?

#91 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 05:15 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Perhaps you should consider that there is a structural reason why that has happened.
It's not structural, its cultural.

So decade after decade the children just got lazier and lazier?

#92 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 05:15 PM | Reply

I just can't

I know. I'm telling the truth and you cant get around it.

#93 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 05:16 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

You are a miserable old man (who acts like a child).

That's how I know I've beaten you in a debate, you resort to name calling.

Thanks, it's been a nice talk.

#94 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 05:18 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#91 You said no deductions. As soon as you say winnings that is net income, you deducted the cost of acquisition. It isn't hard to reduce net income to zero with the modern tax code.

No wonder the US military keeps losing, it must be filled with absolute morons like you.

#95 | Posted by bored at 2021-09-08 05:19 PM | Reply

I just can't
I know. I'm telling the truth and you cant get around it.

#93 | POSTED BY BOAZ

No, sweet summer child. I can't believe that a grown ass adult doesn't know that the rich get stuff for free that everyone else pays for. See Farm Subsidies or Gas Subsidies or a very recent example, how much did the government pay to pharmaceutical companies for the Covid vaccine?

#96 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 05:20 PM | Reply

You are a miserable old man (who acts like a child).
That's how I know I've beaten you in a debate, you resort to name calling.
Thanks, it's been a nice talk.

#94 | POSTED BY BOAZ A

IOW you got nothing. Your argument is stupid and childish and illogical.

Thanks for playing.

#97 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 05:21 PM | Reply

"And yes, that's only personal income tax. I didn't pull up payroll taxes"

How come people talk about payroll taxes as if they're not personal income taxes? They are.

#98 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-09-08 05:22 PM | Reply

Try not reporting your income to the government, see what happens.

#56 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS

Probably nothing. Over years of defunding and undermining, the IRS is left with no balls in its sack.

#99 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2021-09-08 05:25 PM | Reply

Flat taxes assume the billionaire uses no more of the public infrastructure than the minimum wage worker.
Ludicrous on its face.

#51 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2021-09-08 03:43 PM

I favor a progressive income tax code. Having said that, if a flat tax were set at 10% - a person making $1 Million pays $100k and a person making $50K pays $5k - so the millionaire paid $95K more in taxes for infrastructure usage.

#100 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-08 05:33 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

So a flat tax system would see massive amounts more money coming from them than it would the wealthy.

#72 | POSTED BY GALAXIEPETE

Only if deductions and tax credits go away too.

#101 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-08 05:35 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

The explanation of why a flat tax isn't fair isn't your concern.

No one has made a good explanation.

#37 | Posted by boaz

#20 was the explanation. You mean no one has explained it to you in crayons so you can understand.

A poor person losing half their money hurts them far more than a rich person losing half their money.

Maybe we can get some muppets to put on a show for you and write a song that explains it more clearly for your baby brain.

#102 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 05:39 PM | Reply

I'm completely with you on the current leadership of the Republican party. No argument. And there are a lot of Republicans who are full-on Cuckoo for Trump. There are also a lot of Republicans who are reasonable people with a different perspective.

At the risk of being branded a 'both-sider' I can say a few similar things about the Democratic Party

#53 | Posted by El_Buscador

Oh can you? You can say dems did something similar to throwing away all their previous principles and values to join the unquestioning cult of a criminal con man and support his efforts to end democracy?

I must have missed that.

As for your "reasonable republicans" ask liz cheney about that. Even previous right wing hardliners aren't right wing enough anymore. It's not enough to be right wing. You have to be willing to parrot whatever ridiculous lies the cult leader says.

I must have missed the left doing that as well. Or you hallucinated it.

#103 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 05:43 PM | Reply

Boaz refuses to recognize that homosapiens is not a solitary animal and does not prosper by himself. If everyone was responsible to only himself and his perception of self-interest, civilization would never have happened. The beginning of "society" is marked by the division of labor. Somebody has to determine who does what. How does that happen. If everybody just does whatever they want to do, the group/family/tribe/clan dies out. Those that learn to cooperate build empires.

And as far as value of workers is concerned, look at the military. Do you really believe a Captain is worth more to the Army than an experienced Master Sergeant?

#104 | Posted by WhoDaMan at 2021-09-08 05:46 PM | Reply

#72 | POSTED BY GALAXIEPETE

As to personal income taxes, yes, I'm very well aware of that. And that the top 1%, who pay less than half the effective tax rate of the majority of taxpayers, make more than that 50%.

And I'm just about done reading too. It's just devolved into another PILE ON BOAZ thread.

#105 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-08 05:47 PM | Reply

#103 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

Way to cherry pick the portion of my post you needed to try to make your point. That wasn't what I said and you know it. That's exactly how people like you will drive people like me away from the Democratic party.

#106 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-08 05:52 PM | Reply

Way to cherry pick the portion of my post you needed to try to make your point. That wasn't what I said and you know it. That's exactly how people like you will drive people like me away from the Democratic party.

#106 | Posted by El_Buscador

That makes sense. "People on the left don't speak to me the way I want them to so I might as well support white supremacy and fascism."

#107 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 06:01 PM | Reply

That's exactly how people like you will drive people like me away from the Democratic party.

Unfortunately. A lot of casualties in the heated world of online political debates.

I wouldn't take anything on here too personally. I've always admitted debating anonymous people as an anonymous poster, makes it easier to attack more unrestrained. Where as in real life most of us wouldn't be as discourteous.

#108 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-09-08 06:09 PM | Reply

It's just devolved into another PILE ON BOAZ thread.

I'd say that's pretty much going as he had hoped.

Boaz gets pleasure from trolling as many of us "dumb liberulz" as he can manage.

It's not like he hasn't posted this same exact thing on every prior thread about taxes.

#109 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-09-08 06:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#107 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

Again, you with the two extremes and nothing in the middle. You're like two soggy buns with no burger in the middle. Or a nice veggie burger, which is what I'm off to make.

#110 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-08 06:18 PM | Reply

#108 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

I know, I get it. I was just disappointed because I thought we actually had the beginning of an interesting conversation going for a little while.

#111 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2021-09-08 06:19 PM | Reply

Again, you with the two extremes and nothing in the middle. You're like two soggy buns with no burger in the middle. Or a nice veggie burger, which is what I'm off to make.

#110 | Posted by El_Buscador

The left IS the middle. The right is ------- off the reservation crazy.

The extreme left gets ostracized by their own party. The extreme right gets elected, celebrated, embraced, taken seriously even when they spout insanity, and punishes anyone who isn't extreme enough.

#112 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 06:20 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I thought we actually had the beginning of an interesting conversation going for a little while.

Those are difficult to maintain.

Unless it's a barbecue recipe.

Then everyone gets along.

#113 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-09-08 06:23 PM | Reply

If I remember correctly Boaz once mentioned that he makes 6 figures. Knowing the market and his job I can guess about where that puts him. He is in the income bracket that pays the highest percent of taxes when FICA is taken into account. So yeah you aren't going to get him to budge on a flat tax cause he is paying a metric crap ton of taxes right now.

That income bracket gets reamed in taxes and it's probably the 1%'s best allies in the battle to lower taxes, they look at their tax bill and about have a coronary every year. Then they see people getting section 8, food stamps, expanded unemployment etc. Yeah they are pissed and guess what they have every right to be they are the ones funding the government not the rich, not the poor that ugly spot just shy of upper-middle class.

Now that I have defended you Boaz one question for you. Should Bezos pay the same rate as me given that his wealth was built almost entirely due to existing infrastructure? Or perhaps should he pay a bit extra due to the fact that his wealth is dependent on putting massive wear and tear on the transportation infrastructure? Not even counting the money the government has poured into the internet infrastructure that he is also dependent on where as my wealth is mostly built using local and toll roads and could be earned regardless of the existence of the internet.

#114 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2021-09-08 06:46 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Should Bezos pay the same rate as me given that his wealth was built almost entirely due to existing infrastructure?

Yes. The infrastructure was built for all americans, the poor included.

#115 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 07:07 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Yeah they are pissed and guess what they have every right to be they are the ones funding the government not the rich, not the poor that ugly spot just shy of upper-middle class.

You are correct. The poor gets deductions, child tax credits, etc. The rich get deductions too. I say take them ALL away, give the government all that money. Then you have healthcare AND infrastructure paid for..

#116 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 07:12 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Then you have healthcare AND infrastructure paid for..

#116 | Posted by boaz

Or you could just have those things PLUS have the rich pay their fare share by voting for the non-fascist party.

#117 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 07:13 PM | Reply

#117,

That just shows your jealousy and envy of the rich.

#118 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 07:15 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

It aint envy.

The 1 percent have declared war on the rest of us and we are losing.

#119 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2021-09-08 07:22 PM | Reply

I dont agree Alex. It's not something for us to "win"..

You want to hurt them? Take away their deductions. But you have to do it for everyone. The government isnt here for you to get a leg up on those you hate.

#120 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 07:27 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

That just shows your jealousy and envy of the rich.

#118 | Posted by boaz

Envy implies they're doing what I wish I could do. But I do the opposite. I vote to raise my own taxes to help the less fortunate.

What you really mean is YOU envy them. You wish YOU were rich so you could screw the poor too. But you're too stupid to ever get much money. The only dum dums who get rich are the ones who get it from daddy like trump.

#121 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 07:28 PM | Reply

The left IS the middle.

ROTFLMAO...

I would say the position I have taken is very middle of the road. NO one gets deductions. EVeryone gets healthcare and probably mental health coverage out of it, paid for by taxes everyone pays.

#122 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 07:29 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

You want to hurt them? Take away their deductions. But you have to do it for everyone. The government isnt here for you to get a leg up on those you hate.

#120 | Posted by boaz

Want to hurt them? Take away their ability to bribe politicians with public election financing. Put judges on the supreme court who say corporations aren't people. In other words, stop voting republican.

#123 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 07:29 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I vote to raise my own taxes to help the less fortunate.

That's called charity. You shouldnt be able to raise my taxes to go to someone else because you are sad for them or feel empathy for them.

#124 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 07:30 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

The only dum dums who get rich are the ones who get it from daddy like trump.

You have a really warped view of society. And your idea of what is "rich" is probably skewed too.

#125 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 07:39 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

Boaz I'm here to tell you that you're not middle of the road. On anything. You are far FAAAAAR right.

I tell you this out of respect.

#126 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2021-09-08 07:43 PM | Reply

It's not like he hasn't posted this same exact thing on every prior thread about taxes.

I'm consistent. I'm not trolling on this. I truly believe in this. It's the one solution that would pay for EVERYTHING. But you liberals wont do it because you are concerned about it's affect on someone who doesnt make as much money.

#127 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 07:45 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

I love that we literally have a taxation system that is so broken that billionaires have space programs...

and boaz wants to sock it to poor people too. Cuz, I dunno "both sides"?

You're part of the problem, dude.

#128 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2021-09-08 07:47 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

#126,

Eh, I dont agree...

#129 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 07:50 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

Alex,

The billionaire got rich because he had an idea.

Your premise is to try to equalize the poor with him and the poor had no idea.

I say tax everyone and get government out of social politics.

#130 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 07:52 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

The billionaire got rich because he had an idea.

I'm going to avoid naming names so we don't go there. BUT, most super rich people inherited their wealth.

And that's not an idea.

#131 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2021-09-08 07:59 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I'm consistent. I'm not trolling on this. I truly believe in this. It's the one solution that would pay for EVERYTHING. But you liberals wont do it because you are concerned about it's affect on someone who doesnt make as much money.
#127 | POSTED BY BOAZ

More's the pity.

As has been stated numerous times on this thread, you don't have a basic understanding of finance, economics, income or taxes.

BTW effect not affect

#132 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 08:04 PM | Reply

" And you are assuming the minimum wage worker doesnt have the opportunity to use the infrastructure as well."

No, I'm suggesting Bezos has a greater interest in terror-free shipping lanes than the guy digging graves for Covid victims.

Besides, income taxes are the one and only progressive tax we have. Everything else is either regressive, or super-regressive.

#133 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-08 08:06 PM | Reply

Alex,
The billionaire got rich because he had an idea.
Your premise is to try to equalize the poor with him and the poor had no idea.
I say tax everyone and get government out of social politics.

#130 | POSTED BY BOAZ

no boaz, one of the intention is to affect the socio economic mobility that you ascribe to laziness. You know, so more people can experience the American dream.

#134 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 08:06 PM | Reply

A flat tax would be great, but include capital gains as well. Include all income.

The issue is also all the loopholes, made by the lawmakers and lawyers who get their pockets lined by guess who - the rich.

#135 | Posted by brass30 at 2021-09-08 08:06 PM | Reply

Bezos, chief executive of Amazon and the owner of The Washington Post, paid $973 million in taxes on $4.22 billion in income, as his wealth soared by $99 billion, resulting in a 0.98% "true tax rate."

According to Boaz, Bezos didn't get anything for free from the public

#136 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 08:08 PM | Reply

itep.org

After two consecutive years of paying no federal income tax on billions in U.S. profits, Jeff Bezos's retail giant Amazon reported in a splashy press release this morning that the company is paying taxes.

What the release oddly fails to mention is that Amazon still appears to be beating the federal income tax code like a pinata: the company's annual financial report, which was released with much less fanfare, shows that in 2019 Amazon paid just 1.2 percent of its $13 billion in U.S. profits in federal income taxes.

#137 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 08:09 PM | Reply

Jeff Bezos got to fly into outer space.

#138 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 08:09 PM | Reply

www.forbes.com

Congress' new Covid-19 stimulus package has no additional funds for state and local governments, according to Forbes' Sarah Hansen, even though the pandemic is causing them major revenue problems. But while their budgets are squeezed, a new report from watchdog Good Jobs First (GJF) finds they've collectively given Amazon AMZN +0.5% over $3.7 billion in taxpayer subsidies. This is especially galling at a time when Amazon just announced a 37% increase in year-over-year sales. (From December 2020 so old covid bill).

"No one should get something the other doesnt, especially when it's paid for by everyone else."

-Boaz

#139 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 08:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

The billionaire got rich because he had an idea.

#130 | Posted by boaz

Yeah if you think "make people work harder for less payment" is an idea.

#140 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 08:20 PM | Reply

Or "hoard all the productivity gains from new technology instead of sharing them with the workers"

#141 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 08:21 PM | Reply

That's called charity. You shouldnt be able to raise my taxes to go to someone else because you are sad for them or feel empathy for them.

#124 | Posted by boaz

We can raise taxes on you for any reason as long as we have votes for it. Since you sociopaths refuse to help the society that helped you, the rest of us have to force you to pay your share.

#142 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 08:22 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Now you are just trolling Speak...

#143 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 08:28 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#112. Approximately 20% in this country self identify as liberal. Approximately double that self identify as conservative. The remainder self identify as moderate/independent.

One thing I'm beginning to notice about you is that you are extremely binary in your views and that you often pass your opinions off as unassailable facts. I'm guessing in your mind you've never been wrong about anything.

#144 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-08 08:28 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Bezos, chief executive of Amazon and the owner of The Washington Post, paid $973 million in taxes on $4.22 billion in income, as his wealth soared by $99 billion, resulting in a 0.98% "true tax rate."

According to Boaz, Bezos didn't get anything for free from the public

This is how a liberal thinks.

The man basically paid $1billion of taxes on 4 billion. But the liberal adds in what's in his pocket too...

#145 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 08:29 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

#143. No, Speak really does believe that. It's very evident in his? Us vs them mentality.

#146 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-08 08:30 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#106 - "Way to cherry pick the portion of my post you needed to try to make your point. That wasn't what I said and you know it. That's exactly how people like you will drive people like me away from the Democratic party."

People like Speaksoftly will never drive me from the Democratic party. They increase my resolve to drive them from the party, however, because they are destroying it.

#147 | Posted by jakester at 2021-09-08 08:30 PM | Reply

You really don't know how finance works, do you?

His wealth soared by 99 billion, but according to you that increase isn't income.

#148 | Posted by truthhurts at 2021-09-08 08:43 PM | Reply

I can't believe anybody is attempting to argue with the double-digit IQ mentality of idiots like Boaz.

#149 | Posted by Angrydad at 2021-09-08 08:46 PM | Reply

#145

He paid 23% on income. His wealth increased by 99 billion so his earnings were 4.22 and his stock went up 94.78 billion. Now for you and me that 94.78 billion would be unrealized gains which we couldn't access so it's understandable that you wouldn't pay taxes on it. However when you get up to that stratosphere of earnings you can access them through loans and other ways that maybe danforth understands but I don't. The bottom line is if he can access that money it shouldn't be treated as unrealized gains.

As to your point that the poor can use the transportation infrastructure, well which puts more wear and tear on a road a semi or my compact car? So why should I pay for the damage a fleet of semis causes? What about shipyards, rail stations, freight air terminals, runway usage? A navy to protect shipping lanes an air force to protect flight paths etc.

My impact is way smaller so even taking the 23% in taxes Bezos paid on realized gains why am I paying the same rate as he is?

#150 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2021-09-08 09:04 PM | Reply

"...why am I paying the same rate as he is?"

Because, in the world of idiots like Boaz, that's what's fair.

#151 | Posted by Angrydad at 2021-09-08 09:11 PM | Reply

Us vs them mentality.

#146 | Posted by BellRinger

You got that right.

There is a literally a fascist cult insurgency in this country and in our government. You are either helping that fascist insurgency or resisting it. You chose to help it.

#152 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 09:35 PM | Reply

People like Speaksoftly will never drive me from the Democratic party. They increase my resolve to drive them from the party, however, because they are destroying it.

#147 | Posted by jakester

Dude you do nothing but spout right wing talking points. You really suck at this and no one is fooled.

#153 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 09:36 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

I'm guessing in your mind you've never been wrong about anything.

#144 | Posted by BellRinger

Guess again. I used to be a hard core conservative. But then I realized it was all out of ignorance and fear. Learning more about the world made me realize progressives are almost always proven right by history. Conservatives almost always proven wrong. Slavery. Womens suffrage. Civil rights. Vietnam. The drug war.
Trickle down economics. Wall street deregulation. Iraq. Climate change. Trump. Covid.

Conservatives wrong on ALL of them. This is why they scorn higher education. They want you to start a stamping machine business. Not to be able recognize the early warning signs of fascism because you learned the patterns of history in a class you thought wasn't important at the time.

To sign up for a group with a track record like that, you've got to be seriously screwed up in the head or simply ignorant of that track record. But these days they're too brainwashed to even allow objective information into that bubble.

#154 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 09:44 PM | Reply

Guess again. I used to be a hard core conservative.

Jakester isnt the only one around here lying..

#155 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 10:06 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

You really don't know how finance works, do you?

His wealth soared by 99 billion, but according to you that increase isn't income.

He hasnt taken it as income yet you idiot. If his stock price goes down, does he still have to pay taxes on what it was when it was 99 billion increase?

Then stop confabulating stuff that doesnt need to be in this argument.

#156 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 10:08 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Jakester isnt the only one around here lying.."

Cite one, or STFU.

#157 | Posted by jakester at 2021-09-08 10:52 PM | Reply

"Jakester isnt the only one around here lying.."

And the list of heads in which I live grows, right, Boaz?

#158 | Posted by jakester at 2021-09-08 10:56 PM | Reply

Boaz vs jakester.

I pick boaz, at least he doesn't ------- lie about who he is or what he believes.
Plus he doesn't whine and leave the site and keep coming back with new handles.
Love or hate boaz's ideology, the guy is honest and has more balls than most conservatives that ever posted here.

#159 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2021-09-09 12:12 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"I pick boaz, "

Cool

#160 | Posted by jakester at 2021-09-09 12:16 AM | Reply

When it comes to my toilet and Alexandrite, I choose my toilet because it contains less ----. Also, it isn't obsessed with me, nor does it troll me daily.

#161 | Posted by jakester at 2021-09-09 12:22 AM | Reply

No, you choose your toilet because it says nothing as you ---- in it.
The rest of us complain.

#162 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2021-09-09 12:27 AM | Reply

Best let the troll have its last word. Otherwise they never stop.

#163 | Posted by jakester at 2021-09-09 12:31 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Always funny to see a broke loser arguing to pay more so billionaires can pay less.

#11 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-08 01:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

Remember the "Fair Tax" scam that Steve Forbes was pushing? In exchange for doing away with income taxes it pushed the idea of a "23%" sales tax on everything. Houses, cars, food, medicine...everything. It gained lots of traction with the uber rich who saw it as a way to push the tax burden even more onto the poor. His selling point was that every employer would increase wages by the amount of payroll taxes the employers would no longer have to pay, which you know they wouldn't follow through on. So employees would get an 8% boost in take home pay while having to pay 30% more for everything.

Thankfully it failed to gain momentum because it was easily exposed as a fraud in two ways... 1) the rate was 30%, not 23% since Forbes calculated "the rate" as .30 of a total cost of $1.30 on an item that cost $1.00 and 2) his revenue calculation included the federal government paying the fair tax to itself on goods it purchased yet his spending assumptions did not include the added 30% cost to items it bought.

The flat tax is just another scam to shift the tax burden from billionaires to the poor who already have no disposable income.

#164 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-09-09 07:47 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

The man basically paid $1billion of taxes on 4 billion. But the liberal adds in what's in his pocket too...

#145 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-08 08:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

Bezos paid 23%.

Meanwhile the self employed single contractor who made $125,000 in earnings last year paid 31% in taxes. If you just look at the last dollar they earned, they paid 38% on that dollar.

There is the inherent unfairness in the GOP tax scam. Shift the burden from the billionaires to the middle class.

The flat tax would exacerbate the scam.

#165 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-09-09 07:54 AM | Reply

I have no idea why the #CivilianClimateCorp is being brought up but we really do need it.

#1 | POSTED BY TOR AT 2021-09-08 12:56 PM | FLAG:

In the late 30s, early 40s, the Civilian Conservation Corps was a jobs program for men 18-25, to help reduce unemployment by the creation of manual labor jobs to alternately conserve and exploit natural resources is US rural areas. You can't say Conservation any more, it's too outdated, you have to say Climate, thus the Civilian Climate Corps.

It was made to help address 25% unemployment that had surged up from 5%. We're at... 5%, not 25%, so jobs programs may be a little redundant. I'd rather see a priority on using that funding to shore up the existing US National Park Service shortfalls. It doesn't need all that much relative to this spending, $12 billion in repair backlog and.. I'm afraid to look at whatever number it takes to cover their pension liabilities.

#166 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-09 09:05 AM | Reply

Unfortunately the administration is going to "Fix" the problem by raising rates rather than closing the loopholes. Home property tax deductions should be capped. Charitable deductions should be capped. EVERY deduction should have a cap. Billionaires shouldn't get a huge tax cut because they chose to build a huge multi-million dollar mansion. Instead, it looks like they are going to give a tax break to the super rich by uncapping the SALT deduction cap.

#167 | Posted by jamesgelliott at 2021-09-09 09:28 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Flat tax, if we are all going to pay the same lets all get paid the same...I know, I know we aren't all worth the same rate of pay, why should someone who flips burgers make as much as someone who runs the burger joint right you say.. then why should the guy flipping the burger pay the same rate of tax as the guy who is running the burger joint, he is after all getting a bigger piece of the same pie after all... Those with more should pay more.. want it equal then lets do it across the board... flat tax should equate a flat rate of pay... I mean its all in fairness right?

#168 | Posted by OhReally at 2021-09-09 10:52 AM | Reply

"Home property tax deductions should be capped. Charitable deductions should be capped. EVERY deduction should have a cap."

Everything affects everything.

If you reduce charitable deductions here then they have to be increased somewhere else. Charitable causes only need more not less money. Where will they get it from?

The real estate market has current tax rates built in. Are you prepared for what happens when you cap real estate tax deductions? Though I agree you should only be able to deduct your primary residence. Those Deductions are used by the poor also.

Taxes are also used to promote particular parts of our economy and a society.

We should not be picking winners and losers. We should be designing a better economy.

A flat tax taxes the poor unfairly.

A thousand dollars to a poor person is like a penny to a billionaire.

A progressive tax treats the poor better but then it treats the wealthy unfairly!

But it's the wealthy that can afford it. And they obviously ARE different. And you probably will never understand how different unless you go and visit one. If you can get thru the gate. They are definitely different once they have access to that much money. So why can't they be treated differently and according to how much wealth they have? Why can't they be held accountable for being so rich just like the poor are treated the way they are because they are poor?

As I said a thousand dollars is like a penny to a billionaire.

#169 | Posted by donnerboy at 2021-09-09 12:00 PM | Reply

I favor a progressive income tax code. Having said that, if a flat tax were set at 10% - a person making $1 Million pays $100k and a person making $50K pays $5k - so the millionaire paid $95K more in taxes for infrastructure usage.

#100 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-08 05:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

That's the argument the billionaire want every schmuck who isn't a billionaire to make for them.

Right now someone making a million with three kids pays $370,000 so they walk away with an extra $270,000 per year.

Someone making $50,000 with three kids right now pays zero so their taxes increase by $5,000.

Someone making $50,000 per year with three kids does not have an extra $5,000 laying around.

That is why the GOP loves the idea of the flat tax and they will argue any way they can to push it from lying to tell everyone they would save money because the tax rate will drop from 37% to 10% so everyone saves to the tax code is too complex.

Yes it is complex for people with lots of exotic investments, but in fact for 80% of America the tax code is incredibly simple... you get your W-2, add what puny amount of interest income you earn on your savings account, subtract the standard deduction and figure the tax from the tax tables.

However, carried interests, FACTA reporting, foreign earned income exclusions, qualified business income, intangible drilling costs, historic rehabilitation credits, research and development credits, etc all make the tax code extremely complex due to the nature of their income and they pay CPA's and lawyers to figure it out.

#170 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-09-09 12:08 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

A thousand dollars to a poor person is like a penny to a billionaire.

A thousand seconds is 16 minutes.

A million seconds is 12 days.

A billion seconds is 31,688 years.

$5,000 is everything to a person who makes $962 a week.

#171 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-09-09 12:13 PM | Reply

then why should the guy flipping the burger pay the same rate of tax as the guy who is running the burger joint

Because that's not the way it works. We are funding a government for an equal people. Our constitution doesnt give more rights to a rich person because they pay more.

#172 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-09 12:33 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

$5,000 is everything to a person who makes $962 a week.

#171 | Posted by Nixon

Again, I have to say "So"? It's not the governments business to be worried about how it affects citizens. I'm sorry, but it doesnt.

#173 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-09 12:35 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

getting a bigger piece of the same pie after all

You are acting as if the flipper is an equal partner to the owner. The flipper isnt. The owner owns the pie, not the flipper.

#174 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-09 12:37 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Jakester isnt the only one around here lying..

#155 | Posted by boaz

You're as wrong about that as you are about everything else. But youre also just as sure that you're right. This is the problem with conservatives. So very wrong on the facts, but so convinced that they're right that anything contrary to their beliefs is dismissed as a lie.

Just like trump taught you. If it's bad news for you, then it's FAKE NEWS.

#175 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-09 12:44 PM | Reply

This is the problem with liberals. So very wrong on the facts, but so convinced that they're right that anything contrary to their beliefs is dismissed as a lie.

There, fixed that for you..

#176 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-09 12:54 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Our constitution doesnt give more rights to a rich person because they pay more."

If that were the case, wealthy folks wouldn't bother making political donations.

What do they know that you don't?

#177 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-09 12:55 PM | Reply

If that were the case, wealthy folks wouldn't bother making political donations.

Show me where in the constitution it says "If you are rich, you get more rights"..

#178 | Posted by boaz at 2021-09-09 01:07 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

This is the problem with liberals. So very wrong on the facts, but so convinced that they're right that anything contrary to their beliefs is dismissed as a lie.

There, fixed that for you..

#176 | Posted by boaz

Sure. Why don't you spend another 30 years saying climate change is a hoax...

#179 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-09 01:16 PM | Reply

"If that were the case, wealthy folks wouldn't bother making political donations."

You aren't talking about rights...you are talking about capability. Everyone has the right to make political donations, not everyone has the capability to do it at the same level.

I'm not arguing either way since it is both Dems and Reps who make up the 1% and the numbers aren't skewed any more or less against either side. All I try to do is make sure Liberals use good logic, which is a full time job and sometimes impossible.

#180 | Posted by humtake at 2021-09-09 01:23 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

All I try to do is make sure Liberals use good logic

#180 | Posted by humtake

...While deflecting from republicans who spout insanity 24/7.

#181 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-09 01:48 PM | Reply

"Show me where in the constitution it says "If you are rich, you get more rights""

Show me in reality where you don't. Failing that, show me lobbyists for the unemployed and minimum wage workers.

#182 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-09 02:10 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

According to Open Secrets, lobbyists for unemployment and minimum wage issues include Paralyzed Veterans of America, Special Olympics, Arc of the US, NAACP, National Employment Law Project, National Disability Rights Network, SEIU. The battle lobbyists from the National Restaurant Association, major fast food corporations, Walmart, etc.

#183 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-09 02:23 PM | Reply

Mind boggling that some people are so willing to protect and defend the tax interests of a group who, as a whole, do their best to shift their tax burden onto them.

#184 | Posted by HeeHaw at 2021-09-09 02:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

" According to Open Secrets, lobbyists for unemployment and minimum wage issues include Paralyzed Veterans of America, Special Olympics, Arc of the US, NAACP, National Employment Law Project, National Disability Rights Network, SEIU."

All but the latter are paupers. Meanwhile, ONE Walton has more political power than all the pauper organizations combined.

#185 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-09 02:39 PM | Reply

"His wealth soared by 99 billion, but according to you that increase isn't income."

That's according to the tax code.

"Unrealized gains ... "

Aren't taxable income.

#186 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-09 04:00 PM | Reply

"I agree you should only be able to deduct your primary residence. Those Deductions are used by the poor also."

Not anymore; almost never. The personal exemption has been added to the standard deduction, making mortgage interest rarely a factor for poor folks.

#187 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-09 04:06 PM | Reply

DANFORTH is the ONLY commenter to use "regressive" when discussing flat tax rates. Poor people get hurt by regressive taxes. Tobacco, alcohol, and gasoline taxes are regressive. Flat taxes only benefit the rich when they cannot completely escape income tax.

#188 | Posted by john47 at 2021-09-09 06:07 PM | Reply

" how do we get the uber-wealthy up to the percentage the rest of us are paying?"

A progressive income tax.

Elimination of GRATs and other tax abuses.

Tax unearned income the same as ordinary income.

Lower estate values not subject to inheritance taxes.

Disallow inheriting on a stepped-up basis.

... and that's for starters.

#189 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-09 06:18 PM | Reply

#188 - the lottery is also a regressive tax. You never see rich people buying lottery tickets by the handful. It's a horrible retirement plan they have.

We should get rid of the lotter and lotto. It would definitely help the poor.

#190 | Posted by jakester at 2021-09-09 06:31 PM | Reply

We should get rid of the lotter and lotto. It would definitely help the poor.

#190 | Posted by jakester

don't forget your other republican talking points - they blow all their money on big screen tvs and iphones right?

#191 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-09 06:55 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Flat tax. One tax rate. For everyone. No deductions. Everyone pays. But liberals like things "complex".

Yeah, "complex" in that their ideas keep businesses running. "No deductions" destroys most small businesses.

Too complex for you?

#192 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-10 09:14 PM | Reply

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