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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Wednesday, September 29, 2021

Novant Health, a massive hospital system in North Carolina that has made the COVID-19 vaccine mandatory for its employees, suspended 375 employees across 15 hospitals and 800 clinics last week for not complying with the mandate.

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I find it interesting that when their job is on the line, slightly over half decide to get the shot.

So, vaccine mandates seem like the easiest way to get roughly half of the hold-outs vaccinated.

#1 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-28 11:02 PM | Reply

I find it interesting that when their job is on the line, slightly over half decide to get the shot.

So, vaccine mandates seem like the easiest way to get roughly half of the hold-outs vaccinated.

#1 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2021-09-28 11:02 PM

Per usual, you take a very narrow look at the issue and avoid the bigger picture. Week-by-week vaccinations were trending upward until Biden's mandate - since then week-by-week vaccinations have trended downward/

Scroll down to vaccinations.

www.cdc.gov

#2 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-28 11:12 PM | Reply | Funny: 3

"Per usual, you take a very narrow look at the issue and avoid the bigger picture."

No I don't.

"Week-by-week vaccinations were trending upward until Biden's mandate - since then week-by-week vaccinations have trended downward"

You must not be looking at the bigger picture, because week by week vaccinations peaked in April, and even before Biden announced the mandate, they were only at about 15% the April peak.

Source: Your link.

#3 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-28 11:19 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 2

#3 look at the weeks leading up to when the mandate was imposed - vaccines were trending upward. Once the mandate was imposed it had the opposite effect.

Source: My link.

#4 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-28 11:36 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

After trending downward for a long time - at the end of July the vax rate began trending upward, right up to the point where the mandate was imposed - and since then they've trended downward. To be fair, it's only been a couple of weeks....

#5 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-28 11:38 PM | Reply

"Once the mandate was imposed it had the opposite effect."

You can't seriously be claiming causality here.

#6 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-28 11:40 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

#6 I'm not. That was poorly worded. I do question the decision for a mandate when vax rates were trending in a positive direction and even though the drop coincided with the timing of the imposition of the mandate, I don't know if that played a role. It could have been coincidental.

#7 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-28 11:53 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"I do question the decision for a mandate when vax rates were trending in a positive direction"

I don't question the decision for a mandate because the mandate is a sound policy, regardless of rates and trends.

And I especially don't question it when rates had fallen to 15% of their peak.

#8 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-29 12:15 AM | Reply

Week-by-week vaccinations were trending upward until Biden's mandate - since then week-by-week vaccinations have trended downward/

No, it wasn't.

The speech was on September 9.

That's right in that dip after the pack near the left of the graph.

Sorry, bruh. You's wrong.

#9 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-29 01:52 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

I find it interesting that when their job is on the line, slightly over half decide to get the shot.

So, vaccine mandates seem like the easiest way to get roughly half of the hold-outs vaccinated.

#1 | Posted by snoofy

Per the article, 99% of their 35,000 employees were vaccinated.

The more we make business and socials pariahs of anti-vaxxers, the quicker we can get out of this pandemic.

#10 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2021-09-29 02:05 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

The trend in vaccination rates is not the statistic which will end up being most important. It will be the number of healthcare workers who contract COVID from their workplace. It will probably fall to near zero which will mean that our healthcare workers are protected from COVID as well as is possible and the one's too dumb to get vaccinated can sit home for a while and reconsider their idiotic refusals. They can probably get rehired by just getting vaccinated which smarter folks do without coercion but some are just not smart enough to do so on their own.

#11 | Posted by danni at 2021-09-29 07:50 AM | Reply

Who would prefer to shop where all employees are vaccinated and masked? I would.

#12 | Posted by danni at 2021-09-29 07:51 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Termination makes them ineligible for unemployment benefits. I hope they enjoy their new jobs at lower wages.

#13 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2021-09-29 09:48 AM | Reply

This may become an ingenious way to fill up all those burger flipping jobs that are currently available.

#14 | Posted by NerfHerder at 2021-09-29 09:55 AM | Reply

I've got zero problems with the willfully ignorant
either losing their jobs, or paying the 'ultimate penalty'
with their lives. By this time, they have zero people left to blame but
themselves and their own stupidity and stubbornness (pigheadedness).

If they want a ticket out, I'm not going to stop them.
They are using up vital oxygen meant for much smarter
(and likely more gifted/contributing) people.

#15 | Posted by earthmuse at 2021-09-29 10:22 AM | Reply

This is really dumb.

People are struggling to get proper healthcare as it is and now Biden is going to create a worker shortage by diktat?

Ditto for his mandate in the workplace - we have a worker shortage as it is and Biden is going to arbitrarily exacerbate it.

#16 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-29 10:25 AM | Reply | Funny: 3

I do question the decision for a mandate when vax rates were trending in a positive direction

#7 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

Some people took note of the ongoing COVID massacre and became terrified enough for the shots.

A million American dead while Republicans have their little hissy fit is unacceptable.

#17 | Posted by Zed at 2021-09-29 10:26 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

Zed,

I hate to break it to you but vax hesitancy is across the board. It's not limited to Republicans.

A look at the data reveals that the vaccine hesitant group, however, are not big Trump lovers. They're actually likely not to be Republican. Instead, many of them are people who are detached from the political process and didn't vote for either major candidate in 2020.

www.cnn.com

#18 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-29 10:34 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#18 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

It's across the board but centered in one group. Today that group is called Idaho. Hotbed of Trump fascists.

#19 | Posted by Zed at 2021-09-29 10:37 AM | Reply

#7 | Posted by BellRinger

Only so many people are going to get the shot regardless. Fear has been driving vaccinations for a bit. I don't know if there is any causality with this and anti-vax rhetoric because of mandates.

If you are an employer I think you are foolish not to insist on them because of (take your pick): Captialism and/or Doing the Right Thing.

#20 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2021-09-29 10:38 AM | Reply

#18 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

What's interesting is that accurately describing COVID as the Republican Plague seems to hurt your parochial pride a bit. It's always curious to see anything get through to you people, for any reason.

#21 | Posted by Zed at 2021-09-29 10:39 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#20 I think if employers go that route they might be risking wrongful termination lawsuits.

It's the whole doctor/patient privacy thing.

#22 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-29 10:40 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

People are struggling to get proper healthcare as it is and now Biden is going to create a worker shortage by diktat?

LOL! The Hospital had the mandate. Not Biden. Also there is not "Biden mandate to be vaccinated." Another right-wing lie. Please, ask me why it's a lie. I want to see if you can figure it out first, though. This'll be good.

Why in the world would you want someone that's unvaccinated caring for you in the hospital? WHY? These folks have to get an influenza vaccine every year. They are vaccinated for everything else as a condition of their employment.

Good riddance to them!

Also a huge congrats to United Airlines that's in the process of firing the relatively small percentage of their employees that refused to get vaccinated.

Good riddance to them, too!

#23 | Posted by YAV at 2021-09-29 10:41 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

#21 My pride hasn't been hurt at all. I simply like to call out BS when I see it. If it really was Republicans driving vax hesitancy I'd acknowledge it. Lord knows Republicans can be stupid about things. However, it isn't the case.

#24 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-29 10:41 AM | Reply

It's the whole doctor/patient privacy thing.

Not applicable AT ALL. Geezus.

#25 | Posted by YAV at 2021-09-29 10:42 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#24 - the numbers have been given to you repeatedly and you keep choosing to ignore them.

#26 | Posted by YAV at 2021-09-29 10:42 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

If it really was Republicans driving vax hesitancy

#24 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

Alaska, Alabama, Texas, Mississippi, Idaho.....

#27 | Posted by Zed at 2021-09-29 10:43 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Through OSHA Biden issued a vaccine mandate that applies to all companies with 100 or more people.

The one thing that's evident with leftists is that their first impulse is ALWAYS coercion and punitive measures.

#28 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-29 10:44 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#21 My pride hasn't been hurt at all.

#24 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

Then you're defending your anarchist, unwashed tribe.

#29 | Posted by Zed at 2021-09-29 10:44 AM | Reply

The one thing that's evident with leftists is that their first impulse is ALWAYS coercion and punitive measures.

#28 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

One million American deaths is unacceptable while you go blah-blah, woof-woof.

Like the man said, you know the facts. It's just that the facts are too Blue for your taste.

#30 | Posted by Zed at 2021-09-29 10:46 AM | Reply

#27 states are not people. None of the states you listed have 100% GOP voters. Not even close, actually. I already linked an article that broke down vax hesitancy. You ignore it because it shatters the narrative you are so desperately clinging to.

#31 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-29 10:47 AM | Reply | Funny: 2

The one thing that's evident with leftists is that their first impulse is ALWAYS coercion and punitive measures.
#28 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

They were neither coerced or punished.

They were given ample opportunity to achieve the requirements of employment, and chose not to.

It's a free country.

#32 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-29 10:48 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#30 are you familiar with the expression - you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

#33 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-29 10:48 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#31 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

No, They're just populated by people. Unvaccinated, unmasked, Republican people.

Idiot.

#34 | Posted by Zed at 2021-09-29 10:49 AM | Reply

#34 So you are saying that Alabama doesn't have a single person who votes Democrat?

That is idiotic, but then you likely know this.

#35 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-29 10:50 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

- you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

#33 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

OK, I'll bite?

What honey are you talking about, exacly?

#36 | Posted by Zed at 2021-09-29 10:50 AM | Reply

That is idiotic, but then you likely know this.

#35 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

Yes, a few Democrats live in Alabama. If there were a whole lot of them then Alabama would not be the stinking COVID plague pit that it is now.

Stop being stupid.

#37 | Posted by Zed at 2021-09-29 10:52 AM | Reply

"their first impulse is ALWAYS coercion and punitive measures."

Biden became President on Jan 20.

The announcement of the as yet undrafted vaccine mandate was on Sep 9.

Apparently these impulses move very slowly.

And apparently you're either unaware of any of Biden's other approaches to increasing vaccination rates, or you're lying about them.

#38 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-29 10:52 AM | Reply

"I already linked an article that broke down vax hesitancy."

Not the same thing as vaccine refusal.

Again, you misrepresent the facts.

(That's because you're a serial prevaricator, just like Trump.)

#39 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-29 10:54 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#36 Persuasion. Honesty. Consistent messaging.

#37 Did you even read the CNN article I posted? Or are you too busy clinging to a stupid narrative?

#40 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-29 10:58 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

(That's because you're a serial prevaricator, just like Trump.)

#39 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

And you are a serially dishonest hack.

#41 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-29 10:59 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#38 It took months for vaccine availability to match vaccine demand.

Kinda hard to impose a vax mandate in April when it wasn't fully available.

#42 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-09-29 11:05 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

And you are a serially dishonest hack.
#41 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

Certainly not.

Probably the biggest difference between conservatives and regular people on this site is how often conservatives lie, and how rarely regular people do.

What was your first username here?
What was "Skeptical?"
What was "Jakester?"

See what I mean.

#43 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-29 11:07 AM | Reply

"Kinda hard to impose a vax mandate in April when it wasn't fully available."

Not hard at all. Just give it a long sunset.

#44 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-29 11:08 AM | Reply

And since Biden didn't issue a mandate early on, one might conclude that Biden's failure to issue a vaccine mandate until several months after widespread availability shows how

"their first impulse is ALWAYS coercion and punitive measures"

is a big fat lie.

Thanks for reading and understanding.

P.S. Please dazzle us with your honesty by revealing your previous username(s).

#45 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-29 11:13 AM | Reply

Through OSHA Biden issued a vaccine mandate that applies to all companies with 100 or more people.

The one thing that's evident with leftists is that their first impulse is ALWAYS coercion and punitive measures.

There is no vaccine mandate. Did you not know that, or are you lying?

#46 | Posted by YAV at 2021-09-29 11:19 AM | Reply

I have anti-vax family in NC that will likely be affected. They had posted on social media recently that they are at risk of losing their job though I dont know what they do. We are not close although we grew up together. This cousin is highly religious and a vigorous Trump supporter which I find difficult to comprehend but is what it is. Haven't seen any posts from them this week.

#47 | Posted by justagirl_idaho at 2021-09-29 11:20 AM | Reply

Related...

Prove it, hospital asks unvaccinated employees claiming religious exemption
www.beckershospitalreview.com

...An attestation form from Conway (Ark.) Regional Health System asks employees requesting a religious exemption from the hospital's COVID-19 vaccine mandate to confirm they will not use certain everyday medications, such as Benadryl, Sudafed and Tylenol, in alignment with their sincerely held religious belief....



#48 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-09-29 11:26 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#48 - LMAO! Good for CRHS!

#49 | Posted by YAV at 2021-09-29 11:29 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Prove it, hospital asks unvaccinated employees claiming religious exemption"

That's what they're doing where I work too. If you claim religious exemption, that claim is going under the magnifying glass.
Personally I can't wait to see those selfish ------- kicked to the curb. People like that are bad apples.

#50 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-29 11:30 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"President Biden announced sweeping new coronavirus vaccine mandates Thursday designed to affect tens of millions of Americans, ordering all businesses with more than 100 employees to require their workers to be immunized or face weekly testing."

The Press is lazy. The characterization should be:

"President Biden announced sweeping new coronavirus mandates Thursday designed to affect tens of millions of Americans, ordering all businesses with more than 100 employees to require their workers to be immunized (vaccinated) or face weekly testing."

The fact that hospitals and health systems, or other private businesses are making their own policies regarding being vaccinated or being fired is not because Biden "mandated vaccination." It's because they've determined vaccination is smarter and makes more sense than weekly testing. Weekly testing that is 7 times less often than Fox News requires if you don't prove you've been vaccinated.

#51 | Posted by YAV at 2021-09-29 11:31 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

United Airlines ready to fire workers for defying vaccine mandate
news.yahoo.com

#52 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-29 11:35 AM | Reply

"If it really was Republicans driving vax hesitancy I'd acknowledge it."

All existing proof to the contrary.

#53 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-09-29 11:55 AM | Reply

The one thing that's evident with leftists is that their first impulse is ALWAYS coercion and punitive measures.

#28 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

Leftists? No offense but Abbot and DeSantis are not Leftist. Trump is not Leftist. They are the definition of "punitive measures".

#54 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2021-09-29 05:39 PM | Reply

Agree w the Zero Fecks given crowd.

Let these people lose their jobs...
If they insist, let them lose their lives
due to stupidity, and pigheadedness...

I see job openings as a good thing.
I see house and apartment vacancies,
from recently deceased stupid people,
who were just wasting oxygen anyways as
a bonus...

Feck 'em. We've done everything but
draw on a chalk board for them is some
sort of childish pantomime. If they can
figure out, 'the needle goes into the arm'
by now, then they are not worth saving.

#55 | Posted by earthmuse at 2021-09-30 06:27 AM | Reply

Youtube announced that are taking down videos spreading false information about COVID and vaccinations. We need all social platforms to do the same and we need to shame any other media sources that continue to spread false information.

#56 | Posted by danni at 2021-09-30 08:08 AM | Reply

"The one thing that's evident with leftists is that their first impulse is ALWAYS coercion and punitive measures."

Here's a thought you won't like. Leftists won WWII, the last war America ever won. Leftists beat the Great Republican Depression of 1929 by instituting "leftist" programs that still serve us to this day.

Now let's think about what the right has ever brought to us? Tax cuts for the rich. Failed foreign wars. Income inequality fueled by union busting. Attacks on womenn's rights. Most of those who are the Republican base do not consider the affects of Republican policies on their own lives. Today, they are opposing Biden't agenda which will actually affect millions of Americans dependent on child care, education, infrastructure but the rich might have to give back some of the tax cuts they have gained in the last 30 years. But the cult members will remain solidly in support of the right but it isn't because they are pragmatic or wise, it is because their social networks have become more important to them than reality.

#57 | Posted by danni at 2021-09-30 08:17 AM | Reply

Left compared to a Fascist, but ultra Right Wing almost-fascist forces compared to the Communists.

#58 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-30 09:38 AM | Reply

If someone could explain this, I would love a better understanding...

If all the population has access to the vaccine...
If once vaccinated you can still transmit the virus...

Why does anyone really care at this point if someone is vaxed or not?

#59 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2021-09-30 11:17 AM | Reply

"Why does anyone really care at this point if someone is vaxed or not?"

LOL

We don't even let puppies play with other puppies that haven't had their shots.

Did you not know that?

#60 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 11:19 AM | Reply

Why does anyone really care at this point if someone is vaxed or not?

#59 | POSTED BY KWRX25

The answer to your question is in the hospitals in areas with a large population of unvaxed people. Our hospitals in Idaho are crammed full and have gone to crisis standard of care. Meaning that things are taking longer and you wont get the same service you would normally receive. Unvaxxed population also allows for mutation from my understanding and the worry is that a variant will come along that is resistant to our vaccines.

#61 | Posted by justagirl_idaho at 2021-09-30 11:23 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Leave it to Snoofy to give a snarky answer with a crap analogy.

You realize that shots a dog gets have wildly higher rates of reducing transmission right. Now, if you factor that into the question I asked, you'll realize you sound like a jackass.

Justa.. Thanks for the thought out and rational response. I'm in a highly vaxed area, and our hospitals aren't feeling it. Not being faced with that daily I failed to consider it. A lot easier to understand that point of view with that being part of the calculus.

#62 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2021-09-30 11:42 AM | Reply

Why does anyone really care at this point if someone is vaxed or not?

#59 | POSTED BY KWRX25

Because vaccine efficacy is most powerful on a population level.

The reduction in spread by vaccinated individuals compounds as you increase the proportion of people who are vaxxed. The threshold that is sought after, what we call herd immunity, is where the R0 becomes 1 or less; in other words, community transmission subsides dramatically. We'll never be rid of SARS-CoV-2 at this point so squelching spread (R0) and minimizing chances of severe disease removes pressure from medical infrastructure.

And that's not even getting into the issues around vaccine efficacy being different in certain demographics.

#63 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-30 12:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

>Unvaxxed population also allows for mutation from my understanding and the worry is that a variant will come along that is resistant to our vaccines.

#61 | POSTED BY JUSTAGIRL_IDAHO

Even in vaxxed people you'll see mutations. In any immune population you'll see changes. The virus goes extinct otherwise and that has, to my knowledge, only ever happened because of human intervention and only once.

But the difference is a variant is extremely unlikely to completely evade immunity. It gets around it enough to replicate and spread, but it's very unlikely to completely avoid it.

It's that cross reactive immunity that makes influenza behave the way it does.

#64 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-30 12:15 PM | Reply

I'm sure this answer won't go over well but here goes anyway...

The true, in depth answer to this is extremely complicated and requires a deep understanding of a multitude of variables involving immunology, virology and epidemiology.

Even I don't claim to have all of it, especially the epi side of it.

But there are bunches of sliding scales all moving at the same time, with changes in one effecting changes in others which effect changes in others ect ect.

Seeing vaccines through an individualistic lens means you can't see all the variables and asserting individualistic claims like "if you're vaccinated why do you care" shows the knowledge base isn't there to see a full enough picture to get the nuances and complicated web of variables you have to see.

#65 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-30 12:20 PM | Reply

I don't have all day to type out a question... yes I boiled it down to simple english. That really isn't an indicator of my ability or level of understanding of the nuanced and complicated variables. I was hoping to get an understanding of why people are so full of vitriol based on their reasons for being so dug in.

#66 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2021-09-30 12:26 PM | Reply

Given what all health professionals should by now about Covid, it is difficult to believe there is any rational health related reason for not getting vaccinated.

#67 | Posted by moder8 at 2021-09-30 12:33 PM | Reply

"I was hoping to get an understanding of why people are so full of vitriol based on their reasons for being so dug in."

Anti-vaxxers are getting other people killed by clogging up hospitals that they wouldn't need to be in if they had simply gotten the vaccine

You stupid -------- you can't figure that out?

#68 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 12:39 PM | Reply

That really isn't an indicator of my ability or level of understanding of the nuanced and complicated variables.

It's not about ability. It's about simple knowledge.

I was hoping to get an understanding of why people are so full of vitriol based on their reasons for being so dug in.

#66 | POSTED BY KWRX25

I guess I didn't think of this. Your average person who is opinionated against anti-vaxxers probably doesn't understand it that well either.

For them I think it's a matter of disdain for someone openly contemptuous of the health and safety of anyone but themselves, especially when that behavior is driven by ignorance.

#69 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-30 12:43 PM | Reply

"You realize that shots a dog gets have wildly higher rates of reducing transmission right."

So what you're saying here is that you either don't know or don't care that the overwhelming majority of people in the hospital for COVID-19 are unvaccinated.

You don't usually seem stupid. But you sure seem stupid today.

#70 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 12:46 PM | Reply

"I was hoping to get an understanding of why people are so full of vitriol based on their reasons for being so dug in."

Why do people look down on those who get others killed?

Someone please explain it to me I have no concept if right and wrong.

---- you, -------.

#71 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 12:48 PM | Reply

How's the vitriol working out for you, KWRX25?

If you need more just ask. I'm here to help!

#72 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 12:56 PM | Reply

#21 My pride hasn't been hurt at all. I simply like to call out BS when I see it. If it really was Republicans driving vax hesitancy I'd acknowledge it. Lord knows Republicans can be stupid about things. However, it isn't the case.

#24 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

#37 Did you even read the CNN article I posted? Or are you too busy clinging to a stupid narrative?

#40 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

Did YOU read your article? Or are you busy clinging to a stupid narrative???

"This is very much unlike the vaccine resistant group, of whom 55% are Republican or Republican leaning independents. Just 21% of that group are Democrats or Democratic leaning independents."

So, the "hesitant" (which I believe are the 15% of people taking the "wait and see" approach) are a cross section of all people. But they are also willing to be open minded and convinced. But the "resistant" are a majority Republicans. Who are the 19% (BIGGER than the "hesitant" group) of people that are "definitely not" getting the virus, or only if required.

You just cherry picked "hesitant" and only talked about that, when your own source points out that the people who are more EXTREMELY against the vaccine skew very strongly Republican. So vaccine opposition in VERY CLEARLY driven by Republicans.

So, based upon your statement in #24, are you now going to acknowledge that it is Republicans who are driving it, or is this just another example of a conservative lying?

#73 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2021-09-30 01:00 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I don't have all day to type out a question... yes I boiled it down to simple english. That really isn't an indicator of my ability or level of understanding of the nuanced and complicated variables. I was hoping to get an understanding of why people are so full of vitriol based on their reasons for being so dug in.

#66 | Posted by kwrx25

Because people smart enough to understand how vaccines work on a population scale understands why we need everyone to get vaxxed to end the pandemic.

People who sucked in school and are too dumb to understand how vaccines work on a population scale are are also too dumb to understand why we need everyone to get vaxxed to end the pandemic, and always will be.

You can't explain quantum physics to a 4 year old, just like you can't explain basic vaccination strategies to a republican. They're just too stupid. They need to go back and redo basic schooling before they can understand the basics of mass vaccination. All their stupid simple brains can think about is their own body and their "freedom"

#74 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-30 01:38 PM | Reply

"Seeing vaccines through an individualistic lens means you can't see all the variables and asserting individualistic claims like "if you're vaccinated why do you care" shows the knowledge base isn't there to see a full enough picture to get the nuances and complicated web of variables you have to see."

There's nothing complicated about it.

The CDC has done all the complicated stuff, leaving you with the numbers. Provided you retain the ability to do 3rd grade math, you can figure out your risk from COVID and determine your risk calculus from there.

As an example, I'll do me.

As of now, there are 181m vaccinated people in the US.

There have 14,463 breakthrough cases resulting in hospitalization, and 4,493 that have resulted in death.

14% of deaths (630) were in people under age 65. 31% of hospitalizations (4,484) were in people under age 65.

Now, the distribution of vaccinations by age group. We know that older and sicker demographics are far more likely to be vaccinated than younger, healthier people. But for the sake of academic argument lets say it's an even distribution, knowing that it will artificially inflate the probability of younger, healthier people getting COVID that results in hospitalization or death.

So, bar napkin math you place the probability of a 46 year old vaccinated dude (me) dying of COVID at 1/284.3K. The odds of hospitalization would be 1/40.4K.

So...not very scary at all. Much less scary than many other things that are a far greater threat.

#75 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 02:04 PM | Reply

Better Dead Than Med!

#76 | Posted by moder8 at 2021-09-30 02:07 PM | Reply

So...not very scary at all. Much less scary than many other things that are a far greater threat.

#75 | Posted by madbomber

Translation:

Bunch of americans dead from an avoidable pandemic? No big deal. It's not A LOT of americans.

It's not one I know, so I don't care. Saving lives, avoiding long term health costs and suffering, and restoring our economy aren't worth wearing a mask or getting a shot.

#77 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-30 02:13 PM | Reply

^ the battle hymn of a sociopath

#78 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-30 02:13 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The problem is...people are sort of stupid.

A few days ago, Smerconish posed this question on his daily poll:

"With the Delta variant still raging, are you comfortable traveling by air for upcoming vacation plans or sticking to road trips? (Percentage of 6,037 votes)"

Results follow:

I'm comfortable flying: 37.84%
I prefer road trips for the time being: 34.25%
I am not traveling at all: 27.91%

What's interesting about this is that people seem to feel that road trips are safer than flying. It's certainly possible, but airplanes are far safer for an individual from COVID than pretty much anywhere else they would go. And more importantly, it totally ignores the fact that, for the vast majority of people, transportation accidents are far more likely to kill you than COVID.

This morning, Julie Mason was talking about the new James Bond movie and stated how, with only a 53% vax rate in DC, there is no way she would visit a theater. Assuming that she has no crazy underlying conditions, she'd be at greater risk driving in to the theater than being in the theater.

But like I said. People are stupid. I think some want to be scared. I think many, many more want others to be scared as it offers a mechanism to control society through fear.

#79 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 02:19 PM | Reply

"So...not very scary at all. Much less scary than many other things that are a far greater threat."

It's the #3 leading cause of death in USA, behind cancer and heart disease.

#80 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 02:20 PM | Reply

"Bunch of americans dead from an avoidable pandemic?"

Avoidable?

Was the Spanish Flu avoidable too?

#81 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 02:20 PM | Reply

"This morning, Julie Mason was talking about the new James Bond movie and stated how, with only a 53% vax rate in DC, there is no way she would visit a theater. Assuming that she has no crazy underlying conditions, she'd be at greater risk driving in to the theater than being in the theater."

I totally see the point you are making.
People respond to new threats differently than they respond to existing threats.
The risk of driving to the theater hasn't changed.
The risk of being in a theater has changed.

#82 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 02:23 PM | Reply

"It's not one I know, so I don't care. Saving lives, avoiding long term health costs and suffering, and restoring our economy aren't worth wearing a mask or getting a shot."

All of that stuff is a function of individual choice. As thousands are finding out, there is a potentially fatal cost to not getting a vaccine. But there is also a choice to stick a needle in your arm. Or drive drunk. Or whatever.

As for the economy...that vast majority of adverse effects on the economy result from the government prohibiting human interaction in the name of public safety. But most of the public is already safe.

I don't think there are a lot of anti-vaxxers out there demanding that the economy remain shut down...do you?

#83 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 02:23 PM | Reply

"It's the #3 leading cause of death in USA, behind cancer and heart disease."

Yep.

All three are killing mostly the same demographic.

Except cancer. I know too many young healthy people who died of cancer.

#84 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 02:25 PM | Reply

"that vast majority of adverse effects on the economy result from the government prohibiting human interaction in the name of public safety."

The costs of not enforcing social distancing and public safety are not zero. Not doing that would also have resulted in "adverse effects."

#85 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 02:26 PM | Reply

There's nothing complicated about it.

Sure. If you're a priest of the Cult of Selfish Dunning-Krugerites.

The CDC has done all the complicated stuff, leaving you with the numbers. Provided you retain the ability to do 3rd grade math, you can figure out your risk from COVID and determine your risk calculus from there.

You're still making the same self-centered assumptions you do every time you chime in on this topic.

A.Death isn't the only outcomme

B. You don't get to do risk calculus for other people, who are, whether you admit it or not, part of the equation.

Don't bother with your "if you're at risk, stay home" ----. I'm tired of that self-centered --------.

#86 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-30 02:26 PM | Reply

Assuming that she has no crazy underlying conditions, she'd be at greater risk driving in to the theater than being in the theater.

Wrong wrong wrong.

For the same reasons as always.

Just STFU already.

#87 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-30 02:28 PM | Reply

"But most of the public is already safe."

Safe is probably not the right word.

Especially in places where the hospitals are full of anti-vaxxers, sensible people are not as safe as they once were from all the other things that would send you to the hospital. Because those resources are already allocated to the crazies.

#88 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 02:28 PM | Reply

"The risk of driving to the theater hasn't changed. The risk of being in a theater has changed."

You figured it out!!!!

Yay.

For most, COVID isn't much of a threat. So treating it as a significant threat is irrational.

It's like being scared of a shark attack when swimming in the ocean. Does it happen? Sure does. But the odds of it happening are minute. Especially compared to the other things that could kill you in the ocean.

The odds of getting killed in a shark attack are 1/3,748,067. The odds of death by drowning is 1/1134.

Yet when I'm out swimming in open water, it's the sharks I think about. Not the drowning. If I were even thinking about it I would likely not be in the water in the first place.

#89 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 02:29 PM | Reply

"The costs of not enforcing social distancing and public safety are not zero. Not doing that would also have resulted in "adverse effects."

Maybe.

But those adverse effects would have been limited to those parties who elected to pursue a path that resulted in those effects. Those who wanted to avoid them would have been free to do so, or at least trade one risk for another.

#90 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 02:31 PM | Reply

"Sure. If you're a priest of the Cult of Selfish Dunning-Krugerites."

I'm just presenting the numbers. Nothing more. It's up to the individual to determine how those numbers translate into risk.

"You're still making the same self-centered assumptions you do every time you chime in on this topic."

How is it self-centered? I'm not suggesting that I be singled out for special treatment. There's nothing I wouldn't want for myself that I wouldn't want for anyone else. Including you.

In fact it's quite the opposite of being self-centered.

"Don't bother with your "if you're at risk, stay home" ----. I'm tired of that self-centered --------."

That's because you're self-centered. You believe that society should be forced to change in order to accommodate your risk calculus, rather than you altering your behavior so they don't have to change theirs.

#91 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 02:35 PM | Reply

But like I said. People are stupid. I think some want to be scared. I think many, many more want others to be scared as it offers a mechanism to control society through fear.

#79 | Posted by madbomber

It's really hard to explain saving lives to a sociopath. They just don't get the point.

#92 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-30 02:36 PM | Reply

For most, COVID isn't much of a threat.

#89 | Posted by madbomber

For the rest - ---- EM right?

#93 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-30 02:37 PM | Reply

"Wrong wrong wrong. For the same reasons as always. Just STFU already."

I can only be "wrong" if you're objectively "right".

Are you objectively "right" because you say so?

Like, your opinion is special or something?

So special that, it should in fact, be law?

All hail Caesar?

#94 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 02:37 PM | Reply

You believe that society should be forced to change in order to accommodate your risk calculus, rather than you altering your behavior so they don't have to change theirs.

#91 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

My "risk calculus" is quite low.

Normal for long term consequences from COVID, even a mild case.

Which is why I got vaxxed and wear a mask.

Because unlike you, I have and use the ability to consider other people in my "risk calculus" because I don't value my ability to go to happy hour at Applebee's more than an unknown person's life and well being. Especially considering getting vaxxed and wearing a mask is literally nothing, let a lone any type of inconvenience.

#95 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-30 02:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"It's really hard to explain saving lives to a sociopath. They just don't get the point."

Because drawing breathe isn't really what it's about.

We know this because humans euthanize animals that humans arbitrarily determine are no longer capable of living "happy" lives.

If saving every life counted, we would lock up rabid dogs until they died from the disease.

I put two cast to sleep last year for cancer. Should Was that wrong of me? To take their life.

You live in the US, so you had the fortune of being in a place, that, at the time, still permitted some personal freedom. But this time last year Germany was effectively under martial law. children could not visit their parents. Friends could not visit friends. And outside of pharmacies, gas stations, and grocery stores, everything was ordered shuttered by the federal government.

My point is that, given the choice between some sort of solitary confinement, or at least limited social interaction, I'll risk the possibility of COVID.

#96 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 02:45 PM | Reply

"Which is why I got vaxxed and wear a mask."

An M50 gas mask?

If not, why?

#97 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 02:46 PM | Reply

Was the Spanish Flu avoidable too?

It isn't 1918 anymore.

If Trump hadn't politicized the virus by lying about its dangers and labeling it a Democratic Hoax.

If he hadn't sneered at masks and gotten into petty, personal conflicts with Fauci.

If he had told Americans to act responsibly.

If his tax cuts hadn't defunded the CDC.

If his strategy hadn't been to allow the virus to flourish in blue states that voted against him.

If he had created a better method of distribution for PPE, rather than pitting Governors against each other, demanding fealty.

Then we wouldn't be stuck dealing with Covid almost two years later.

Perhaps the issue isn't whether it was or wasn't avoidable, but rather mitigating the severity, consequences and results of the virus.

#98 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-09-30 02:47 PM | Reply

"Because unlike you, I have and use the ability to consider other people in my "risk calculus" because I don't value my ability to go to happy hour at Applebee's more than an unknown person's life and well being. Especially considering getting vaxxed and wearing a mask is literally nothing, let a lone any type of inconvenience."

What about someone else's ability to go to happy hour at Applebees?

Do you value that?

Or have you simply concluded that happy hour's are too great a risk for humans to be allowed to subject themselves to?

Wanna hear something funny?

In Germany, employees don't wear masks. Just customers. So, if you go to a restaurant (you wouldn't) the dude cooking your food is doing so unmasked. The server who brings you your food is unmasked. The bartender who would make your happy hour cocktail if you believed in happy hour cocktails...unmasked.

And for the record, it's fairly irrational for you to take measures to protect someone else from you. They're choosing to share space with you as much as you are with them. And they can do so virtually risk free by getting vaxxed. And if they don't get vaxxed...that's a personal decision between the individual and their god. Why would you not honor that arrangement?

#99 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 02:51 PM | Reply

"Perhaps the issue isn't whether it was or wasn't avoidable, but rather mitigating the severity, consequences and results of the virus."

Or maybe the world should have simply followed the example set during the Spanish Flu, which ended about two years after it began.

Without the benefit of a vaccine.

#100 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 02:52 PM | Reply

I can only be "wrong" if you're objectively "right".
Are you objectively "right" because you say so?
Like, your opinion is special or something?
So special that, it should in fact, be law?
All hail Caesar?

#94 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Your hysterics are noted.

And yes, I am objectively right.

Any discussion of vaccination campaigns that focus on the individual is missing the point because their primary effects are at the population level.

#101 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-30 02:53 PM | Reply

An M50 gas mask?
If not, why?

#97 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

And the merry-go-round of stupid starts again.

#102 | Posted by jpw at 2021-09-30 02:55 PM | Reply

Because drawing breathe isn't really what it's about.

We know this because humans euthanize animals that humans arbitrarily determine are no longer capable of living "happy" lives.

If saving every life counted, we would lock up rabid dogs until they died from the disease.

#96 | Posted by madbomber

So human lives are equal to dog lives.

As if we needed MORE proof you're a sociopath.

#103 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-30 02:59 PM | Reply

Or maybe the world should have simply followed the example set during the Spanish Flu, which ended about two years after it began.

Without the benefit of a vaccine.

#100 | Posted by madbomber

"Hey if they accepted a bunch of deaths in the 1800s, why can't we just do that today?"

-the sociopath

#104 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-30 03:01 PM | Reply

"And yes, I am objectively right."

How does that work?

Do you hold some special position within the fabric of the universe?

#105 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 03:03 PM | Reply

"But those adverse effects would have been limited to those parties who elected to pursue a path that resulted in those effects."

No, not at all.

If the hospitals are full, it affects everyone who would like to use those hospital resources.

#106 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 03:04 PM | Reply

Much like that upstate NY hospital had to stop delivering babies after so many of their anti-vaxxers quit.

It doesn't only affect anti-vaxxers.

#107 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 03:05 PM | Reply

"Any discussion of vaccination campaigns that focus on the individual is missing the point because their primary effects are at the population level."

Literally, 100% not true.

I didn't get vaxxed for the benefit of someone else. There's no need to. They can get vaxxed and get the same benefit that I get.

The only way your statement makes sense is if your starting position is that some people need to get vaxxed in order to protect others who don't want to.

I didn't know you held the anti-vaxxers in such high regard. I guess their place in the fabric of the universe must be even greater than your own for you to prostrate yourself on their behalf.

#108 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 03:06 PM | Reply

"So human lives are equal to dog lives."

Mmmmm....I probably prefer dogs.

#109 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 03:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"No, not at all. If the hospitals are full, it affects everyone who would like to use those hospital resources."

Totally true.

But isn't that really more a function of hospital policy?

Like giving a junkie experiencing liver failure a bed, and sending someone who got hit by a train away?

#110 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 03:08 PM | Reply

"I didn't get vaxxed for the benefit of someone else."

You got vaxxed because your job requires it.

Why does your job require it?
It's not just to protect you.
It also protects everyone you come into contact with.

#111 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 03:09 PM | Reply

"Much like that upstate NY hospital had to stop delivering babies after so many of their anti-vaxxers quit."

They quit?

Would they have stayed if they had been allowed to remain unvaxxed?

Again, this is hospital policy. All parties made a choice based on what they viewed as best for themselves. And it sounds like this outcome was the one that suited all parties best.

#112 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 03:10 PM | Reply

For most, COVID isn't much of a threat. So treating it as a significant threat is irrational.

That's like saying "For most, cancer and heart disease isn't much of a threat."

So you're saying cancer research is irrational.

#113 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 03:11 PM | Reply

"All parties made a choice based on what they viewed as best for themselves."

Yep, and those choices affected unrelated parties who were going to give birth there, but now they can't.

#114 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 03:12 PM | Reply

"You got vaxxed because your job requires it."

Neg-a-tory.

When I got vaxxed it was optional. I did it because it simplified the travel requirements and restrictions that I have to deal with both personally and professionally.

I don't know that it's mandatory now. In fact I think that not getting vaxxed has become a thing that GS employees do in order to retain their restricted COVID work schedule, which typically means working one day per week.

In any case, I don't really care about vaccines. If they bother you the military is probably not a good choice.

The COVID vax was actually one of the easier ones I've gotten, with the exception of all the -------- that came with getting a COVID vaccine.

#115 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 03:14 PM | Reply

"So you're saying cancer research is irrational."

Nope.

But I would tell you that the cost of shutting down society doesn't justify the risk posed by cancer.

And if we're being honest, you and I are far, far more likely to die of cancer than of COVID.

#116 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 03:16 PM | Reply

"But isn't that really more a function of hospital policy?"

No, it's a function of unvaccinated people consuming all the available resources.

The hospital policy hasn't changed. The amount of resources hasn't changed. The change is in who's using those resources -- stupid anti-vaxxers.

#117 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 03:16 PM | Reply

"Yep, and those choices affected unrelated parties who were going to give birth there, but now they can't."

You're presupposing that one or more parties has a preordained obligation to deliver babies.

Would it have been any different if the same people had quit because the hospital told them they couldn't smoke weed?

#118 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-09-30 03:17 PM | Reply

"I don't know that it's mandatory now."

Good point. The DOD couldn't mandate it before full FDA approval.

It's mandatory now.

Anyways, the reason isn't just to protect the individuals who get vaccinated.

#119 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 03:20 PM | Reply

"You're presupposing that one or more parties has a preordained obligation to deliver babies."

No I'm not.

There is simply a vaccine requirement as a condition of employment. Just like your employment, and mine.

If you don't like it, you're free to quit.

#120 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 03:21 PM | Reply

"Would it have been any different if the same people had quit because the hospital told them they couldn't smoke weed?"

Would what have been any different?

The impact on unrelated third parties hoping to give birth there? Probably not.

#121 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 03:23 PM | Reply

Snoofy lashing out with the anger, I asked a question, jeez.

So much anger against people, I've never seen that sway someone on stuff like this. I guess that's not the goal anymore

#122 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2021-09-30 03:26 PM | Reply

"So much anger against people, I've never seen that sway someone on stuff like this."

Which raises the real question:

What have you seen sway the ------- who won't get vaccinated?

You got any ideas?

#123 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 03:30 PM | Reply

I didn't get vaxxed for the benefit of someone else. There's no need to.

#108 | Posted by madbomber

Not for a sociopath who doesn't care about anyone or ending the pandemic.

It's really baffling for sociopaths when they hear about doing things to help society or other people.

#124 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-30 03:32 PM | Reply

So much anger against people, I've never seen that sway someone on stuff like this. I guess that's not the goal anymore

#122 | Posted by kwrx25 a

Wahh why all the anger? All we're doing is extending a pandemic and killing people. Whats the big deal?

#125 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-30 03:33 PM | Reply

But I would tell you that the cost of shutting down society doesn't justify the risk posed by cancer.

#116 | Posted by madbomber

If cancer could be cured by shutting down society for a couple weeks, would that be worth it?

#126 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2021-09-30 03:34 PM | Reply

"I didn't get vaxxed for the benefit of someone else."

How about the people who have vaccine requirements that you can now do business with?

They don't benefit from getting your hard earned mooched taxpayer dollars?

#127 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 03:39 PM | Reply

"I've never seen that sway someone on stuff like this. I guess that's not the goal anymore."

Any thoughts on their anger?

How would you advise them to help us understand that vaccine mandates are worse than dying of COVID?

#128 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 04:03 PM | Reply

What have you seen sway the ------- who won't get vaccinated?

#123 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2021-09-30 03:30 PM | FLAG:

Covid hospitalization.

#129 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-30 04:34 PM | Reply

Still not 100% reliable though. Many holdouts had Covid already and don't want the vaccine.

#130 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-09-30 04:34 PM | Reply

The job creator sets the rules.

Wage slaves can comply or die, err, collect EI. Bye.

#131 | Posted by bored at 2021-09-30 05:01 PM | Reply

#129, 130: It seems like someone they know getting taken down is the only thing that might convince them.

"But he said interest in the shots typically increases only after someone dies or gets seriously ill within a hesitant person's social circle."

From the link at drudge.com

#132 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 05:46 PM | Reply

"We literally have email Listservs of rural chief nursing officers or rural CEOs sending up an SOS to the group, saying, We've called 60 or 70 hospitals and can't get this heart attack or stroke patient or surgical patient out and they're going to get septic and die if it goes on much longer,'"

According to MadBomber, they chose to accept the risk of their community hospitals being overrun with anti-vaxxers when they decided to live in rural America.

#133 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-09-30 05:52 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I have a real hard time with the topic of this thread.

I am very opposed to coercive and punitive measures being taken to try and force someone to do something against their will, especially if it comes from government (on this thread it doesn't - it is hospital policy). I value freedom and liberty very highly and I absolutely see a slippery slope with this.

Having said all of that, we are in fact dealing with a global pandemic - a deadly virus that is ridiculously contagious and stealthy (think of all of the asymptomatic carriers) - and the greater public health is at risk here.

On this, I really am torn. I think we need to get as many people vaccinated as possible. These kinds of measures tend to piss people off and cause them to dig in their heels. I much prefer transparency, honesty, persuasion and personal choice. Unfortunately, that hasn't really been tried all that much. Yeah, we are seeing pro-vax commercials and whatnot, but the ones I've seen come off as cliche and preachy, in short, not very convincing. The messaging from the CDC and leading politicians has been all over the place and mostly terrible. Clean all of that up first IMO. Honestly, I think if Trump and Biden stood side-by-side and gave a joint speech encouraging vaccinations, detailing both the risks and overall benefits, both to the individual and the societal group and THEN strongly encourage anyone who still isn't convinced to reach out to their personal doctor for advice. I'd be willing to bet if handled properly we'd see a huge spike in vaccinations, at least initially. If after that we are still below 70% I will quietly root for more authoritarian measures to get us there.

#134 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-10-01 12:42 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"I have a real hard time with the topic of this thread."

I believe you, but I don't think it's as difficult as you think.

"I am very opposed to coercive and punitive measures being taken to try and force someone to do something against their will, especially if it comes from government"

I don't believe you, but I also don't think you realize you're full of it.

Pre-employment drug screening, that bothers you as much as this. Fingerprinting teachers. Having to get a TB test before working in food service. Registering for Selective Service. Paying your taxes or going to jail. Seat belt laws. Parking tickets. Library fines.

"These kinds of measures tend to piss people off and cause them to dig in their heels."

I don't think so. This story shows half got vaccinated. I have another one up about United Airlines, where again about half chose to keep their job and get vaccinated.

These programs work.

"Honestly, I think if Trump and Biden stood side-by-side"

I think so too, but Trump is never ever going to do that, because he's an ------- and all he cares about is himself and he thinks it would make him look bad.

"I'd be willing to bet if handled properly"

Trump can't handle things properly, and neither can Republican governors aspiring to the Presidency.

"If after that we are still below 70% I will quietly root for more authoritarian measures to get us there."

Well you ended up with the right answer, even if the way you got there was wrong. I'm a results guy, so good job.

#135 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-01 12:58 AM | Reply

"There is simply a vaccine requirement as a condition of employment. Just like your employment, and mine."

I agree with you.

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. You appeared to be implying that the employees of the NY hospital were somehow at fault. They were no more at fault than the organization that demanded the hospital employees be vaxxed.

#136 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-01 01:33 AM | Reply

"Not for a sociopath who doesn't care about anyone or ending the pandemic."

A pandemic that doesn't kill people is relatively meaningless. And as I've pointed out once or twice, if you're vaxxed, you have very little to fear from COVID.

#137 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-01 01:35 AM | Reply

"If cancer could be cured by shutting down society for a couple weeks, would that be worth it?"

Um, you're not going to "cure" anything by shutting down society.

Unless you're aware of some sort of magic that has eluded the rest of us.

#138 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-01 01:37 AM | Reply

"How about the people who have vaccine requirements that you can now do business with? They don't benefit from getting your hard earned mooched taxpayer dollars?"

I would have happily done business with them had a vaccine never come to fruition.

It was government prohibiting me from doing so.

#139 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-01 01:38 AM | Reply

"Still not 100% reliable though. Many holdouts had Covid already and don't want the vaccine."

In Germany, having had COVID is legally considered the equivalent of a vaccine. You just have to get the card from your doctor stating that you had it and have recovered from it.

#140 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-01 01:40 AM | Reply

"It seems like someone they know getting taken down is the only thing that might convince them."

Half of my family had COVID. About 20 in total.

They went home and coughed it off.

My brother and brother in law both had COVID. Both have told me that the vaccine took them down worse than the actual virus.

I'm fortunate. I didn't have any issues with either shot.

The only person I knew who died of COVID was old and had a few pre-existing medical problems.

#141 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-01 01:43 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"On this, I really am torn. I think we need to get as many people vaccinated as possible."

Why?

How about, as an alternative, hospitals stop admitting COVID patients that are unvaxxed? Or at the very least set them up in a space-available setting where doctors could tend to them when/if they weren't busy with other patients?

#142 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-01 01:46 AM | Reply

#7 it was mostly cover for companies. ... gotta keep you hamsters healthy. ;)

#143 | Posted by ichiro at 2021-10-01 01:47 AM | Reply

... you know, death threats and ----.

#144 | Posted by ichiro at 2021-10-01 01:48 AM | Reply

"The messaging from the CDC and leading politicians has been all over the place and mostly terrible."

But the information being given out by the CDC has been fantastic. It still is.

My biggest problem is that "the media" is not presenting an accurate assessment of risk. I don't know if it's intentional or not, but when you tell a 25 year old Marine that he needs to get the vaccine because COVID is a deadly serious virus than might kill him, he knows you're lying.

And if the intent was to use fear in order to prompt more people to get vaccinated, that only works if they're not looking at the numbers. If they are looking at the numbers, they're going to wonder why someone is lying to them.

#145 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-01 01:51 AM | Reply

my very healthy younger lawyer brother got delta ... after a few weeks on his back at home his vaxxed wife (2 of 4 kids had it too) made/took him to hospital ... he got convalescent plasma, oxygen, steroids, and was out in a matter of days " he "hates" hospitals.
says he will get vaxxed asap.

#146 | Posted by ichiro at 2021-10-01 01:52 AM | Reply

#14
except youre not lying.
www.military.com

#147 | Posted by ichiro at 2021-10-01 01:54 AM | Reply

www.nbcsandiego.com

#148 | Posted by ichiro at 2021-10-01 01:59 AM | Reply

news.usni.org

#149 | Posted by ichiro at 2021-10-01 02:00 AM | Reply

"I don't know if it's intentional or not, but when you tell a 25 year old Marine that he needs to get the vaccine because COVID is a deadly serious virus than might kill him, he knows you're lying."

You're the one who is lying.
It's not just to protect him.
It's not even primarily to protect him.

It's to end the pandemic through herd immunity.

How many times do you need to be told this?

#150 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-01 09:17 AM | Reply

"How about, as an alternative, hospitals stop admitting COVID patients that are unvaxxed?"

How about Alternative COVID Treatment Centers that don't treat COVID, like those Pregnancy Crisis Centers that don't perform abortions, but instead try to talk you out of it?

Your suggestion cuts too much against the grain. Hospitals exist to treat people, not turn people away.

#151 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-01 09:52 AM | Reply

"It's to end the pandemic through herd immunity. How many times do you need to be told this?"

To what end?

If you're vaxxed, the odds of you getting seriously sick from COVID are pretty insignificant. Even for those who would otherwise be at risk.

I mean, the best I can come up with is that you want more people to get vaxxed so those who don't want to get vaxxed are at lower risk.

That's a pretty confusing argument from my vantage point.

Anyway, for the sake of academic argument, let's say you're correct. The young and the healthy aren't getting vaxxed for themselves, but for someone else.

I think that would be a tough argument to sell, but it would be an honest argument.

#152 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-01 10:21 AM | Reply

"Your suggestion cuts too much against the grain. Hospitals exist to treat people, not turn people away."

And there is nothing I can do about it, but rationally it's pretty stupid to prioritize the care of those who chose to be in a situation over those who did not.

#153 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-01 10:22 AM | Reply

People are struggling to get proper healthcare as it is and now Biden is going to create a worker shortage

The workers who chose firing over the shot are putting their own temper tantrum ahead of caring for patients.

#154 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-10-01 01:25 PM | Reply

"To what end?"

To COVID-19 not being a leading cause of death any more.

To hospitals not being unable to care for sick people because COVID-19 patients have filled up all the beds.

Getting those young healthy Marines vaccinated reduces the odds of them transmitting COVID-19 to those who aren't so young and healthy.

From an epidemiological perspective, the goal of vaccination is to get R0 below one. That way, an epidemic doesn't become a pandemic. Instead it can be contained.

#155 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-01 05:14 PM | Reply

"rationally it's pretty stupid to prioritize the care of those who chose to be in a situation over those who did not."

Seems like people who are smarter and more driven than you choose to become doctors anyway.

Seems like they must be able rationalize in ways that you simply can't understand.

Seems like since you can't understand it, you choose to call it stupid.

#156 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-01 05:20 PM | Reply

"To COVID-19 not being a leading cause of death any more."

That's easy.

Get vaxxed.

Problem solved.

#157 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-02 03:18 AM | Reply

"Getting those young healthy Marines vaccinated reduces the odds of them transmitting COVID-19 to those who aren't so young and healthy."

I think it is now mandatory for all Service Members to get vaccinated.

Which really isn't a big deal. If you're in the military you get jabbed all the time for different reason.

#158 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-02 03:19 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

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