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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Friday, October 01, 2021

As governments spend more, it becomes increasingly important that they design their taxes carefully. Large European welfare states such as Sweden or Germany rely on growth-friendly value-added taxes (vats) to help raise the vast quantities of cash they dole out. America can get away with a tax system that is grossly inefficient and needlessly complex only because the amount of revenue it raises overall is relatively small... The plan does little to move towards the efficient taxation that would be necessary were America ever to have the European-style welfare state to which many Democrats aspire. That is because the proposals have been crafted with the goal of raising taxes only on households with incomes in excess of $400,000. ...The left thinks the rich do not pay their fair share.

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As governments spend more, it becomes increasingly important that they design their taxes carefully. Large European welfare states such as Sweden or Germany rely on growth-friendly value-added taxes (vats) to help raise the vast quantities of cash they dole out. America can get away with a tax system that is grossly inefficient and needlessly complex only because the amount of revenue it raises overall is relatively small...

The plan does little to move towards the efficient taxation that would be necessary were America ever to have the European-style welfare state to which many Democrats aspire. That is because the proposals have been crafted with the goal of raising taxes only on households with incomes in excess of $400,000.

...The left thinks the rich do not pay their fair share.

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"The left thinks the rich do not pay their fair share."

Because they don't. The right ignores the obvious tax dodges used by the rich and pretends they aren't tax evasions. Most EU contries offer their citizens relatively free healthcare and education so if you add into what most Americans pay in taxes the expenses for both of those things our liabilties probably far exceeds what average Europeans pay. Comparing only what average Americans pay in taxes with what EU citizens pay ignores the actual truth about the economic conditions for American taxpayers.

#1 | Posted by danni at 2021-10-01 09:53 AM | Reply

From the article:

"The federal government has some scope to raise more money from high earners. But the idea that the main problem with the existing system that tax rates are too flat is wrong. In 2018 the lowest fifth of earners on average paid no net federal taxes at all. The top 1% paid a total rate (ie, after all deductions) of 30%, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Include state and local levies, and high earners face a marginal tax rate on each extra dollar they take home"the rate that matters for work incentives"which is middling by rich-country standards. Tax refunds for poor families are exceptionally generous. In 2019 a single parent of two children earning two-thirds of average pay faced total net labour taxes of only 10%, according to analysis by the oecd, a club of mostly rich countries. In egalitarian Sweden the rate was nearly 33%."

#2 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-01 10:17 AM | Reply | Funny: 2

So have everyone pay more, including the billionaires, and the poor. Then pass legislation that reduces the liabilities from healthcare and schooling,and subsidises housing for some people in need. Create a European type welfare state and properly fund it.

End the endless wars. Shrink the military by 65% or more. Close almost all overseas bases.

Renounce our Imperial pretentions and become a normal country.

Then we can have Nice Things.

#3 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-10-01 12:45 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#1 Exactly right. There are many ways to reduce taxable income from gross income if you are rich or have a business, true in Europe as well.

This is why marginal tax rates are misleading for higher incomes.

#4 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-01 01:42 PM | Reply

#2 Tax refunds for poor people are a drop in the bucket compared to the tidal wave of largess that floods the MIC.
Government services available to the poor in Europe are far superior to those in the US and worth the tax differential.

#5 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-01 01:47 PM | Reply

"In 2018 the lowest fifth of earners on average paid no net federal taxes at all."

On average?!? Okay, that means 1/10th didn't pay net federal taxes.

"The top 1% paid a total rate (ie, after all deductions) of 30%"

That's due in large part to the massive wealth the top 1% has amassed. Also, that's only INCOME taxes which account for 50% of revenue...so we're talking about 15% of federal revenue. It's also important to remember the vast majority of workers (~70%) pay more in payroll taxes in their lifetimes than income taxes.

"Tax refunds for poor families are exceptionally generous."

That's because Republicans wove the welfare system Into the 1040, via the Earned Income Tax Credit. Frankly, the main reasons it was done were wise: it eliminated the massive bureaucracy involving social workers, and it kept people who otherwise might've drifted away from the tax system in the tax system.

One other reason, though, was a political one: to inflate the number of "people who don't pay taxes" as a talking point. For example: When I was a kid, if the family up the street owed $1000 a year in income taxes on their W-2s, they were scored as paying income tax. If they also got $100/mo in welfare because they were poor and had three kids, they were still scored as paying income tax. Today, that same scenario would be scored as "NOT" paying income tax.

Over the years, there have been over a half-dozen MAJOR changes to the code, mostly child-rearing credits like the CTC, ACTC, AOC, and the aforementioned EITC. All but the most recent increase in the Child Tax Credit were originated by Republicans, and with each enactment, without exception, the "percentage of people who don't pay income taxes" goes up.

And then the next day, Republicans complain the percentage has gone up.

#6 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-01 02:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"marginal tax rates are misleading for higher incomes"

Exactly.

My wealthiest clients get a laundry list of tax-favored accounts to max out each year.

#7 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-01 02:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"That's due in large part to the massive wealth the top 1% has amassed."

Pro tip: if the top marginal rate drops, but the wealthiest pay an even larger percentage of income taxes...

...that means they've amassed an even LARGER percentage of the wealth pie than before.

It's basically proof the equation funnels money upward.

#8 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-01 02:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"That's due in large part to the massive wealth the top 1% has amassed."

Off the backs of the 99%.

#9 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-10-01 02:19 PM | Reply

Did someone miss the multi-trillion dollar bail-out to the rich Donnie Fail and Mitch the B#tch rammed through? Dopes.

#10 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2021-10-01 03:02 PM | Reply

All of the responses to this post validate the position put forward by "The Economist."

American Progressives want a European welfare state without providing a European welfare state funding mechanism.

They just want more free ----, or to be able to offer more free ---- in return for votes.

Fact.

#11 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-01 03:49 PM | Reply | Funny: 3

But there is always money for tax cuts.

#12 | Posted by fresno500 at 2021-10-01 04:06 PM | Reply

"American Progressives want a European welfare state without providing a European welfare state funding mechanism."

That's not a problem.

I can buy a Japanese car, but it doesn't have to drive on the Japanese side of the road. This is no different.

Money is fungible.

As a result, there's no specific funding instrument which is needed. Just a funding instrument. There's nothing which demands a value added tax.

#13 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-01 05:29 PM | Reply

But there is always money for tax cuts.

#12 | POSTED BY FRESNO500 AT 2021-10-01 04:06 PM | FLAG: You do realize that there is no money 'given' for tax cuts, rather it allows us to keep more of the money we earned to spend on what is important to us, instead of someones' agenda.

#14 | Posted by MSgt at 2021-10-01 07:00 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

It would be nice to upgrade US infrastructure. For some aspects, the current situation is beyond repair. Haggling over cost is fun until the power or water utilities go offline due to lack of investment into their a ability to deliver services.

#15 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2021-10-01 07:08 PM | Reply

#15 | POSTED BY GONOLES92 AT 2021-10-01 07:08 PM | REPLY: All for an actual infrastructure bill without the dem spending agenda of 'human infrastructure'.

#16 | Posted by MSgt at 2021-10-01 09:06 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

16 | POSTED BY MSGT

Politics is real frustrating that way. It is likely that all voters agree that infrastructure should be invested into to protect our nation against natural disasters (among many other threats) and to generally upgrade legacy systems/hardware. Unfortunately the pols all want to put their pork into such a bill >:(

#17 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2021-10-01 09:19 PM | Reply

MISSYSGT...just give it up.

Actually don't, you are so amusingly stupid it's great.

:)

#18 | Posted by billy_boy at 2021-10-01 09:28 PM | Reply

tax cuts, rather it allows us to keep more of the money we earned to spend on what is important to us, instead of someones' agenda.
#14 | POSTED BY MSGT

I doubt you pay any taxes, or have a job.

You strike me as, retired and useless.

But. In the real world. Tax cuts only go to the wealthy.

Who amassed their wealth off the labor of others.

Millionaires and billionaires. Putting money in savings accounts for their great great great grandchildren to use. Maybe.

#19 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-10-01 09:32 PM | Reply

"That's due in large part to the massive wealth the top 1% has amassed. Also, that's only INCOME taxes which account for 50% of revenue...so we're talking about 15% of federal revenue. It's also important to remember the vast majority of workers (~70%) pay more in payroll taxes in their lifetimes than income taxes.
#6 | POSTED BY DANFORTH"

That is why Democrats needs to continue to pretend that payroll 'taxes' are the same as federal income taxes when they are not.

Your payroll taxes go to pay for YOUR future retirement and benefit. Federal incomes go to pay for EVERYONES' national defense, FDA, park service, etc. Saying that they are the same thing is just out and out dishonest.

Here is a hypothetical for you - assume you have a person that ONLY pay federal taxes on the gas that he buys. Are you going to lump this guy in the same as the rest of the Federal income taxes payers supporting the entire apparatus of the government or are you honest enough to admit that his federal gas tax is a use tax that only pays for his usage of the highway system AND NOTHING MORE?

Democrats have a complex where MY taxes are MY money (I paid for SS so I am entitled!!!!) meanwhile the income tax (that they don't pay) is OUR money. It is patently idiotic and why they fight so hard not to end entitlement spending because their fraudulent grouping of payroll taxes with income taxes can fool people into not realizing half the country does not contribute - they are parasites on society.

#20 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-01 11:21 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#20 Income taxes are based on net income. The poor don't pay it, the gap between gross income and net income widens dramatically as income increases. Corporations have lower tax rates even after getting to deduct pretty much whatever they want to spend.
I know this because that is what I do. I have all sorts of fancy tech toys that my business needed to buy. I only pay taxes on the money I save outside of tax free plans. For a few years I was eligible and collected child benefits while grossing well over five figures. The lower middle class get the worst deal on income taxes by far. The really rich abuse charities to dodge even more taxes.

There should be a wealth tax, that you can deduct the payroll taxes your employees pay from. Make hiring Americans Great Again.

#21 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-02 12:44 AM | Reply

"That is why Democrats needs to continue to pretend that payroll 'taxes' are the same as federal income taxes when they are not."

You're absolutely right. Income tax breaks are with real money, up front and with a reasonable annual constructive-use return of 6% annually, at a minimum. Meanwhile, that real money is replaced with (less than) 2% bonds, with an average maturity of ~25 years. Pretending an upfront 6% dollar in your tax cuts is equal to my 2% annual dollar 25 years from now is insulting.

Do you understand the macro equation or not?

#22 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 12:54 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Your payroll taxes go to pay for YOUR future retirement and benefit."

Nonsense. They go to fund for YOUR current income tax cuts. I get promises you'll pay taxes in the future...something you've said you don't want to do, remember?

#23 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 01:01 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

""Your payroll taxes go to pay for YOUR future retirement and benefit."
Nonsense. They go to fund for YOUR current income tax cuts.
#23 | POSTED BY DANFORTH"

Not now or at any time in the past have payroll taxes EVER gone to pay anything except benefits under the payroll tax programs (SS, Medicare, etc). Not a single dime has ever gone to pay for anything else or to fund a single 'tax cut'.

So, you are just straight lying now.

I want you to state that you understand that payroll taxes have never paid for a tax cut.

#24 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-02 01:35 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Not now or at any time in the past have payroll taxes EVER gone to pay anything"

Nonsense.

Real money, taken from workers' paychecks, pay for what your income tax cuts would've. That money had a constructive-use of 6% annually, at a minimum.

In return, I get (less than) 2% bonds, payable in an average of 25 years. That's a crappy equation, especially since you get a guarantee of up-front money, and I get a little more than a promise (a promise you want to welch on, btw).

Where is the balance due me for the difference between your up-front money 6% and my "promised later" money at 2%? And how much extra should I charge since you've now shown an inclination to default?

#25 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 02:11 AM | Reply

"I want you to state that you understand that payroll taxes have never paid for a tax cut."

Sorry, pal, you lost that debate the first time when GW Bush cited payroll tax overcollections as the reason to cut income taxes.

You lost it the second time when you suggested society should welch on its commitment to folks who have already paid for one generation's retirement.

#26 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 02:15 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Income taxes are based on net income."

That's not true.

Income taxes are based on taxable income. A $10,000 birthday gift from Aunt Petunia is net income, but it's not taxable income.

In addition, there are ~4000 taxpayers with net incomes over $1,000,000 who don't pay federal income taxes. How? Tax-exempt bonds.

#27 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 02:19 AM | Reply

"Real money, taken from workers' paychecks, pay for what your income tax cuts would've.
#25 | POSTED BY DANFORTH "

Again, that is a 100% lie. 100% of payroll tax collections and interest on the money will be paid out to beneficiaries. It did not pay for any other government programs or tax cuts.

You are just straight up lying.

Pathetic.

#28 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-02 02:24 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"In addition, there are ~4000 taxpayers with net incomes over $1,000,000 who don't pay federal income taxes. How? Tax-exempt bonds.
#27 | POSTED BY DANFORTH"

My god you are stupid. Who benefits from tax-exempt bonds? The CITIES AND COUNTIES that offer them so that they can lower their cost of borrowing. People that buy tax-exempt bonds are not getting rich off of them - they buy them because they are low risk. Get rid of tax exempt bonds and then the cities and counties will have to pay high interest rates because now the income will be taxable for the buyers - how does that help the government? It doesn't.

You just seem to love lying for some reason.

#29 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-02 02:27 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"100% of payroll tax collections and interest on the money will be paid out to beneficiaries."

Not if you have your way.

And again, you get 6% constructive-use up front, compounded annually; I get 2% annually with an average maturity of 25 years. You wouldn't take that 2% deal in real life.

"It did not pay for any other government programs or tax cuts."

Bullschitt. Real money pays government workers. In return, I get a promise you'll be willing and able to pay taxes in the future...something you've admitted you want to welch on. I mean, you don't get it both ways. You're on record wanting to end SS and Medicare.

#30 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 02:29 AM | Reply

"You just seem to love lying for some reason."

I just described tax-exempt bonds, dunderhead. And the fact thousands of filers have AGIs over $1,000,000, yet don't pay a dime in income taxes.

Not a lie in sight; at least not from me.

#31 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 02:31 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"People that buy tax-exempt bonds are not getting rich off of them - they buy them because they are low risk."

No thanks to would-be welchers like you.

#32 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 02:32 AM | Reply

""100% of payroll tax collections and interest on the money will be paid out to beneficiaries."
Not if you have your way.
#30 | POSTED BY DANFORTH"

So you admit that it has never happened in the past and is not happening now?

#33 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-02 02:39 AM | Reply

"I just described tax-exempt bonds, dunderhead. And the fact thousands of filers have AGIs over $1,000,000, yet don't pay a dime in income taxes.
Not a lie in sight; at least not from me.
#31 | POSTED BY DANFORTH"

You present this as some sort of scheme for rich people to avoid paying taxes - it is not. As I said, it is done to help the issuing agencies.

If you want proof of this - you can compare the interest rate for a tax free bond and a taxable bond issued bu the same entity - there is difference in interest rate to account for the tax free status - so, the buyers are buying something at over market value which is akin to paying the taxes to benefit the cities and counties issuing the tax free bonds.

No scam by the rich - anyone can buy them and get the same tax-free status.

Of course losers like yourself and the Democrat base of economic losers don't pay income taxes already so you would not have the same benefit from the tax free status.

#34 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-02 02:43 AM | Reply

"But. In the real world. Tax cuts only go to the wealthy."

That's true.

You can't give a tax cut to people who don't pay taxes in the first place.

And it's really mostly the wealthy that pay federal income taxes.

#35 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-02 02:51 AM | Reply

So what you are saying is that DANFORTH LIES!

Well, to be fair he could be off by 2%.

#36 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2021-10-02 02:52 AM | Reply

"#36 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT"

His continual lying about payroll taxes being used to fund tax breaks is a dangerous lie. We have unbalanced people like Danni on here that may see this and get violent. It is important for him to correct this lie.

#37 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-02 02:56 AM | Reply

But hey, how much is 2% of everything when it really comes down to it?

#38 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2021-10-02 02:57 AM | Reply

Anyways...the point of the article was that, if the Dems want a European-style welfare state, they need a European style funding mechanism. in other words, a VAT

I've never heard a single politicians of any stripe, even on the left, ever suggest the introduction of a VAT. Which means that the Dems only want the Welfare State benefits if the rich are tasked with picking up the bill.

If the costs are evenly spread across society in the form of a non-progressive tax, then they don't want it.

This is why most American progressives are stupid or hypocrites. Personally, COVID has revealed how stupid people are. So I'll go with stupid.

#39 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-02 02:57 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#3y7 I guess I missed that part. You see, I have a utopian vision (tell me what's wrong with it).

We eliminate all business taxes but local (sales, property, etc....) no federal stuff. This saves $200 billion in fired accountants from the IRS alone, Business saves far more. The savings go into tripling the minimum wage. Federal taxes go mostly external, by raising export duties on nations with slave-labor wages. China is banned.

Tell me it wooon't work.

#40 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2021-10-02 03:01 AM | Reply

#3y7 I guess I missed that part. You see, I have a utopian vision (tell me what's wrong with it).

We eliminate all business taxes but local (sales, property, etc....) no federal stuff. This saves $200 billion in fired accountants from the IRS alone, Business saves far more. The savings go into tripling the minimum wage. Federal taxes go mostly external, by raising export duties on nations with slave-labor wages. China is banned.

Tell me it wooon't work.

#41 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2021-10-02 03:02 AM | Reply

*import duties, not export. No imports from the slave nations. We'll sell to anyone who isn't a genocidal communist silencing monster. Our one condition. And you need American anyway.

#42 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2021-10-02 03:06 AM | Reply

"You present this as some sort of scheme for rich people to avoid paying taxes"

No I don't. I simple stated it as fact. But I get it: you're embarrassed you didn't know.

"lying about payroll taxes being used to fund tax breaks is a dangerous lie."

You're pretending actual up-front money is equal to a poorly paying IOU, due in 25 years. It's like you don't actually understand the macro equation.

"Of course losers like yourself and the Democrat base of economic losers don't pay income taxes"

Bwahahahaha! Look at you: reduced to lying about me to make yourself look less stupid.

#43 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 03:09 AM | Reply

"If the costs are evenly spread across society in the form of a non-progressive tax, then they don't want it."

That's because the income tax is the one progressive tax in existence. All others are either regressive, or super-regressive. And remember, if you're talking about the 1% funding 30% of the government, two things: one, your denominator is off by (literally) the size of the annual deficit, and two, income taxes only make up half of the revenue, so we're only talking about (less than) 15% of the cost of government, not 30%.

#44 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 03:13 AM | Reply

The Macro Equation is over Danforth. Nothing can save it now. e^(pi*i)=1. There is no walking away from what is happening right in front of us....

#45 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2021-10-02 03:14 AM | Reply

"So you admit that it has never happened in the past and is not happening now?"

I admit the macro equation made it easy. It will get much harder as the baby boomers' retirement peaks.

Of course, you're saying when it comes time for you to pay, you want to welch.

#46 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 03:15 AM | Reply

"it's really mostly the wealthy that pay federal income taxes."

Mainly because Republicans have shoved child-rearing subsidies, and welfare, into the income tax code. Who do you blame for that?

#47 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 03:17 AM | Reply

Hey Danforth, what is your solution?

#48 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2021-10-02 03:20 AM | Reply

"You do realize that there is no money 'given' for tax cuts, rather it allows us to keep more of the money we earned to spend on what is important to us, instead of someones' agenda."

WRONG.

When running deficit budgets, "tax cuts" like the $2.3 Trillion tax giveaway is ALL NEWLY BORROWED MONEY.

You know...Actual Math.

#49 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 03:20 AM | Reply

#49 You do have a point. But until now it was free. Now we are out of slack.

#50 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2021-10-02 03:24 AM | Reply

So we have to evolve.

#51 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2021-10-02 03:25 AM | Reply

"You're pretending actual up-front money is equal to a poorly paying IOU, due in 25 years. It's like you don't actually understand the macro equation.
#43 | POSTED BY DANFORTH"

It is a poorly paying IOU because you wet your panties when the GOP suggested it should be invested in something other than government bonds. So, don't cry about that now. Also, no need to really worry about it that IOU as it is exhausted in the next 10 years and SS will start to default on its obligations - then again, the Biden-covid variants could cull enough old people to bring the equation back into balance.

But the FACT remains - payroll taxes at no time in the past or currently were ever used for anything outside of their designated programs and you claiming they funded tax cuts is a dangerous lie.

#52 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-02 03:58 AM | Reply

"Of course, you're saying when it comes time for you to pay, you want to welch.
#46 | POSTED BY DANFORTH "

I have paid for 30 years and will get back much less than I ever paid in.

#53 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-02 04:00 AM | Reply

"That's because the income tax is the one progressive tax in existence. All others are either regressive, or super-regressive."

The US doesn't have a regressive tax.

A regressive tax would be one that decreased an income increased. So the lowest income earners would be paying the highest marginal rates.

#54 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-02 09:36 AM | Reply

"Mainly because Republicans have shoved child-rearing subsidies, and welfare, into the income tax code. Who do you blame for that?"

Does it matter?

You seem to think that a person who paid $15k in taxes but gets $16k back is contributing as much as someone who paid $15k and got zero back.

#55 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-02 09:39 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

I just want a progressive to defend their opposition to the VAT, while at the same time promoting programs that, worldwide are funded by a VAT.

Like I said, progressives only want these programs if someone else has to pay for them.

#56 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-02 09:40 AM | Reply

Progressives already folded. Even AOC has come around to bringing back SALT deductions where 80% go to the top 5% of earners.

#57 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-10-02 10:16 AM | Reply

AOC is realizing that she is becoming one of the people that she claims to fight against. And that's normal.

Many of the far left radicals of the 1960s changed their tune over time as they grew up and started making money.

#58 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-02 10:53 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"What Is a Regressive Tax?
A regressive tax is a tax applied uniformly, taking a larger percentage of income from low-income earners than from high-income earners. It is in opposition to a progressive tax, which takes a larger percentage from high-income earners."

#59 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2021-10-02 11:21 AM | Reply

"Does it matter?"

That Republicans put child-rearing credits onto the 1040 for a talking point? Or that you fell for the ruse?

Of course it matters; look at you, dutifully repeating the talking point, while ignoring the root cause put there by Republicans.

We even score the same events differently nowadays, as I illustrated upthread.

Ultimately, whether someone gets welfare or not has nothing to do with whether they pay taxes or not.

#60 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 11:54 AM | Reply

"The US doesn't have a regressive tax."

Nonsense. You clearly don't understand the definition.

"A regressive tax would be one that decreased (as) income increased."

So, like Social Security taxes.

#61 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 11:58 AM | Reply

" the FACT remains - payroll taxes at no time in the past or currently were ever used for anything outside of their designated programs"

Bullfeces. Congress has used the SS overcollections for regular expenses for decades.

That money was replaced by an 2% IOU, while you got hard money (and it's 6% use) up front.

And the fact you now don't want to pony up means it's a worse deal than it seems on paper.

#62 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 12:04 PM | Reply

I have paid for 30 years and will get back much less than I ever paid in.
#53 | POSTED BY SKEPTICAL

America.

Love it or leave it.

#63 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-02 12:18 PM | Reply

"I have paid for 30 years and will get back much less than I ever paid in."

Thanks for proving my point. The upfront tax break is worth waaaaay more than a 2% bond with an average maturity of ~25 years.

#64 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 12:27 PM | Reply

"It is a poorly paying IOU because you wet your panties when the GOP suggested it should be invested in something other than government bonds"

Once again, you can't seem to make a point without a lie. I've suggested a much better set of investments: Congress's.

#65 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-02 12:33 PM | Reply

"I have paid for 30 years and will get back much less than I ever paid in."

Nobody's making you pay. You can leave America, or stop earning money, whenever you like.

#66 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-02 12:42 PM | Reply

"Thanks for proving my point. The upfront tax break is worth waaaaay more than a 2% bond with an average maturity of ~25 years.
#64 | POSTED BY DANFORTH"

In what world? That bond is now negative yielding due to Biden's inflation. Only one it helped with the agency issuing it - as it was intended.

#67 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-02 09:04 PM | Reply

"I have paid for 30 years and will get back much less than I ever paid in.
#53 | POSTED BY SKEPTICAL"

But, if you became disabled any time during those 30 years and couldn't continue working you would have received a SS disability pension for the rest of your life. Can't leave that little fact out when whining about what you pay in SS taxes.

#68 | Posted by danni at 2021-10-03 06:55 AM | Reply

And if you died before your retirement age, you dependent children would have received survivor benefits until they are 18 years old.

#69 | Posted by danni at 2021-10-03 06:56 AM | Reply

"Ultimately, whether someone gets welfare or not has nothing to do with whether they pay taxes or not."

Yeah.

That's very much like saying deductions haven nothing to do with one pays taxes or not.

You routinely point out how high income earners avoid paying taxes. Yet you don't seem as willing to criticize the poor for the same thing.

#70 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-03 07:18 AM | Reply

"In what world? That bond is now negative yielding due to Biden's inflation."

That's my concern, although I don't blame Biden any more than I would blame any politician. Or any American for that matter. That's really what this article is all about.

All of my investments and military retirement are indexed in USD. The dollar is on the decline. It's within the realm of possibility that by the time I retire, my military retirement benefits and investments will be worth a fraction of what they are right now.

I might be living in a tent. Although it would be a tent in Mallorca or Crete, so still better than most places.

#71 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-03 07:24 AM | Reply

"Does the U.S. Tax its Billionaires Less Than Other Rich Countries?"

"By European standards, yes. Compared to the developing world, not really. The top U.S. marginal tax rate " 35 percent " is low by the standards of developed countries. It's about 51 percent in Britain, 47.5 percent in Germany, and 40 percent in France. Until recently, Denmark's highest tax rate was a whopping 63 percent, but that's been recently cut down to about 51 percent " good news for billionaires like Lego tycoon Kjeld Kirk Kristiansen. Not all rich countries tax heavily however. At 29 percent, Canada's top rate is actually lower than the United States."

foreignpolicy.com

#72 | Posted by danni at 2021-10-03 09:22 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Quick Charts
Capital gains tax (CGT) rates

taxsummaries.pwc.com

#73 | Posted by danni at 2021-10-03 09:27 AM | Reply

#72

The difference between the US and many other countries is state income tax.

For instance, an income earner in the highest tax bracket in Portland, OR (51.6%) will have a higher total marginal income tax rate than someone in the highest tax bracket in Germany (47.475%). They would also pay more than taxpayers in France, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Canada, and more.

#74 | Posted by madbomber at 2021-10-03 09:36 AM | Reply

"One chart that shows how much worse income inequality is in America than Europe"

www.vox.com

#75 | Posted by danni at 2021-10-03 10:13 AM | Reply

"The difference between the US and many other countries is state income tax."

If Florida we have not state income tax.

#76 | Posted by danni at 2021-10-03 10:16 AM | Reply

"List of U.S. states and territories by median wage and mean wage"

en.wikipedia.org

#77 | Posted by danni at 2021-10-03 10:19 AM | Reply

2021 to 2022 Maximum Weekly Unemployment Benefits By State

savingtoinvest.com

All these charts I post are intended to show that in red states workers are treated like crap while in blue states not so much. Then the red states are net receivers of federal dollars while blue states are donor states. Point being, blue states in the U.S. compare well compared to their EU counterparts in taxes received by their governments while red states don't and it is sort of ironic that the people trying to use net tax revenue of the U.S and EU don't differentiate between blue states who do pay simiar amounts to the EU while the red states, where most of those whining about American workers not paying as much as their EU counterparts are generally conservatives from red states who don't actually want to pay a dime more in taxes than they do now and it's because if red states paid in as much in taxes as blue states it would require higher wages.

This whole thread is just propaganda garbage.

#78 | Posted by danni at 2021-10-03 10:28 AM | Reply

"In what world? That bond is now negative yielding due to Biden's inflation."

Thanks for proving my point, yet again: your up-front use of 6% money is MUCH more valuable than my ~2% bond, payable in 25 years. In real-world terms, my payroll taxes paid for government services your income taxes should've been paying for.

And if you're going to rant on about the full faith-and-credit of the US, skip it. You're on record wanting to welch to a generation who already paid for one generation's retirement.

#79 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-03 11:05 AM | Reply

"an income earner in the highest tax bracket in Portland, OR (51.6%)"

Could you show your math, please? I'm getting a different number.

"...will have a higher total marginal income tax rate than someone in the highest tax bracket in Germany (47.475%)"

Are you counting VAT, or just income taxes?

#80 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-03 11:10 AM | Reply

"100% of payroll tax collections and interest on the money will be paid out to beneficiaries."

Not if you have your way.
"SS and Medicare...the programs should be ended"

#81 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-03 11:39 AM | Reply

Your payroll taxes go to pay for YOUR future retirement and benefit.

#20 | POSTED BY SKEPTICAL

Why do righties never seem to know what they're talking about?

#82 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-03 11:59 AM | Reply

no, "different" taxes.
#taxtherich

#83 | Posted by ichiro at 2021-10-03 06:14 PM | Reply

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