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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Friday, October 22, 2021

nderson Economic Group released today the first in a series of analyses examining the transition from ICE vehicles to EVs. This initial 36-page study is the culmination of comprehensive research comparing the "apples-to-apples" costs involved in fueling both EVs and ICE vehicles. AEG undertook this study after noting that many commonly cited figures did not account for the true costs associated with EV charging.

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AEG calculated the cost of chargers, additional road taxes, commercial charging fees, and "deadhead" miles for three different EV driving scenarios and compared these with 3 analogous ICE vehicle scenarios. The research found that fueling an EV is often more expensive than fueling an ICE vehicle. It further found that fueling costs are far more variable for EVs. The authors go on to note the significant time costs imposed on EV drivers as a result of both inadequate infrastructure and wait times associated with fueling, which can be five to ten times the cost for ICE drivers.

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Anschutz ain't gonna like this.

#1 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2021-10-22 09:47 AM | Reply

This is one of those ones where you know who posted it just from the headline. :)

#2 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-22 09:51 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

They certainly make some good points. It does take a lot longer to charge an EV than fill up a tank of gas. Of course, it takes a lot more man-hours to drill oil, refine it, and deliver it to gas stations than to dig coal, put it on a train, and deliver it to the power plant. But those are somebody else's hours.

I certainly wouldn't be too excited about driving an EV to work if my work didn't have a place to charge it up while I work. I feel like EV drivers are more likely to have those kinds of jobs.. not sure about cart and horse on that one.

#3 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-22 09:56 AM | Reply

@#3 ... It does take a lot longer to charge an EV than fill up a tank of gas. ...

That is my concern about EVs. Given their relatively short range, the long time required for a "fill-up" makes long distance travel difficult to do.

#4 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-22 10:10 AM | Reply

#4 The new EV's are starting to come out with ranges equivalent to gasoline powered cars. Of course it's an issue and the lack of infrastructure to charge the vehicles will be addressed as more and more vehicles are being built. For a long road trip, it may be better to rent a gas powered car rather than deal with charging an EV.

Hyndai has a gas/electric hybrid that bridges this issue which I think may be the solution until charging ability improves and infrastructure is developed.

Clearly home charging and using an EV for everyday travel around town is the most beneficial.

#5 | Posted by Nixon at 2021-10-22 10:48 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

You can charge many newer EVs in the time it'd take to have lunch at a restaurant.

#6 | Posted by qcp at 2021-10-22 10:53 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

@#6 ... You can charge many newer EVs in the time it'd take to have lunch at a restaurant. ...

If it is more than a five minutes, it is still too long for me.

When I travel, I like to travel, not stand by and watch paint dry, or in this case, batteries charge.


#7 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-22 11:29 AM | Reply

You'll get over it eventually.

#8 | Posted by qcp at 2021-10-22 11:50 AM | Reply

a gas/electric hybrid that bridges this issue

#5 | POSTED BY NIXON AT 2021-10-22 10:48 AM | FLAG:

Wiki: History of Plug-In Hybrids

#9 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-10-22 12:03 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

I certainly wouldn't be too excited about driving an EV to work if my work didn't have a place to charge it up while I work. I feel like EV drivers are more likely to have those kinds of jobs.. not sure about cart and horse on that one.

#3 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2021-10-22 09:56 AM | FLAG:

You are most likely to be working from home. So in that sense, yes, you have a charger where you work.

#10 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-10-22 12:03 PM | Reply

@#8 ... You'll get over it eventually. ...

Or the industry will provide a product that fits my needs, instead of telling me to just accept the major weaknesses of their current products.

#11 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-22 12:42 PM | Reply

Every auto maker's EV plans

#12 | Posted by qcp at 2021-10-22 01:24 PM | Reply

@#12

Thanks, very good article.

From the looks of it, by the time I need a new car, EV technology may have progressed enough that I might even want an EV.

#13 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-22 02:00 PM | Reply

This is one of those ones where you know who posted it just from the headline. :)

#2 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2021-10-22 09:51 AM | FLAG:

There's so many out there to go with nowadays.

"Why the Rivian R1T Electric Truck Is The King Of Off-Road Pickups"
"VW America CEO: $4,500 US Incentive For Union-Made EVs Is Wrong"
"Tesla Will Use Cheaper Iron Batteries For Standard Model EVs"
"US Transport Chief defends auto safety agency after Musk criticism"
"California's New Energy Infrastructure: A Transition to Nowhere"
"Elon Musk teased Warren Buffett for being so much poorer than him - and suggested the investor buy Tesla stock to catch up" (okay that's funny)
"Volvo $2.9 Billion IPO Marks Key Test in Electric Car Shift"
"2022 Ford Mustang Mach-E Gains Battery Capacity" (mrs. sitz wants one)
"GM says LG to pay $1.9 billion of $2 billion in costs for Bolt recall"
"Owner ordered to pay Tesla $7750 for falsely claiming brake failure"
"GM reveals Ultra Cruise!"
"Porsche Taycan now dominating high performance EV sales"
"Porsche 718 Cayman EV keeps "mid-engined" layout"
"2022 BMW iX Will Pull Over If You Pass Out"

Lots going on out there. What else do you want to hear about?

#14 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-10-22 03:38 PM | Reply

Mach E looks fun. No trip hassles when it's a 2 car family and 1 isn't a pure EV. Horrible time to buy any new car though.

#15 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-10-22 03:41 PM | Reply

#7 I don't think I have travelled more than 3 hours by car, in the last decade. I have done road trips in my RV though.
I actually bought the smaller battery size for my EV, since my longest car ride is 1.5 hours, except for ski trips and then I just have dinner on the way.

#16 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-22 09:48 PM | Reply

Until they can get an EV that can travel across the country, ICEs are here to stay.

#17 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-22 09:52 PM | Reply

My EV takes less time to charge that my gas car to fill. 10 cents per hydro kilowatt to charge where I park it, so no trips to the gas station. No other costs.

#18 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-22 09:52 PM | Reply

#16 - It takes me less than 5 minutes to fill my 20 gallon tank. An EV can charge in less than that?? I call BS.

#19 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-22 09:57 PM | Reply

How long does it take to charge an electric car

#20 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-22 10:01 PM | Reply

#19 It doesn't takes me 5 seconds to plug in my EV at night.

#21 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-22 10:02 PM | Reply

"Until they can get an EV that can travel across the country, ICEs are here to stay."

EVs can travel across the country.
It might take longer, with stopping to recharge.
It might not, if you recharge while you're sleeping.

#22 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-22 10:05 PM | Reply

#21 -- But it can't charge in less than that it takes to fill a tank of gas as you claim, regardless how quickly you plug it in.

#23 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-22 10:06 PM | Reply

For cost comparison to the article graphics. My EV costs less than $2 per 100 miles, vs $7 (ICE) or $9 (EV) on the graph. Zero extra taxes, Zero for deadhead miles and my home charger came with the car, but I paid $100 to have a 30 amp plug wired in my garage. My EV destroys my ICE in cost per mile.

For time comparison, zero instead of 2 hours to charge, zero instead of 2 hours deadheading, zero for uncertainty and I never wait for my EV to charge at home. I don't know where they got 7 hours for 100 miles from, that is insane.

#24 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-22 10:08 PM | Reply

"But it can't charge in less than that it takes to fill a tank of gas"

On the other hand, he doesn't have to add a stop at a gas station and wait for the tank to fill. He's coming out ahead in the time budget, even though it takes longer to charge than fill up. Because he's at home while it's charging, doing other stuff. He gets 20 minutes or so back in his day.

#25 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-22 10:10 PM | Reply

#23 I never have to go to a gas station or wait to fill up, I just spend 5 seconds plugging in at night. 5 seconds is my time cost. I also don't count the amount of time it takes to delivery gas to the gas station or the wait time for that.

#26 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-22 10:10 PM | Reply

"My EV takes less time to charge"

Technically, that's incorrect.

However, "Charging my EV requires less of my time than filling your ICE requires of you" sounds correct.

Especially since one is not supposed to leave the ICE while fueling. I'm sure your EV has no such requirement.

#27 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-22 10:13 PM | Reply

#25 exactly. I also never realize I am low on gas as I am in a rush to get somewhere, which used to happen to me frequently. I consider that to be a big EV benefit.
If you drive hundreds of miles a day, then don't get an EV, re-examine your life choices.
If you like road trips an ICE is better, I have an ICE car and RV. My next car will be another EV. I doubt an EV RV will be practical, and it would piss off the RV campsites with electrical hookup unless they metered use.

#28 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-22 10:16 PM | Reply

#28 - I'm glad it works for you. I drive too much for one to work for me.

#29 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-22 10:19 PM | Reply

#27 the article was referring to time the owner spends refueling, not duration of refueling, as that isn't a direct cost to the owner. That is what I was referring to.

#30 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-22 10:20 PM | Reply

#29 Thanks. I am sorry you drive so much.

#31 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-22 10:21 PM | Reply

"Especially since one is not supposed to leave the ICE while fueling."

I'm convinced. I need to get an EV so I don't waste 5 minutes a week pumping gas But what in the world will I do with all that extra time I save? LOL

Don't oversell.

#32 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-22 10:24 PM | Reply

"If you drive hundreds of miles a day, then don't get an EV, re-examine your life choices."

LOL

#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-22 10:24 PM | Reply

" I need to get an EV so I don't waste 5 minutes a week pumping gas"

And paying 10 cents a mile instead of 2 cents a mile.
With all those miles you're driving, that's gonna add up.
And that's just fuel cost. Far less maintenance on an EV than an ICE.

#34 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-22 10:26 PM | Reply

"I am sorry you drive so much."

Don't be. Be sorry I don't have more time to travel and explore this wonderful country of ours.

#35 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-22 10:26 PM | Reply

I must admit that the cost and time savings I was getting from my EV has dropped during Covid due to driving less, but hard to complain about getting free time and money by not going to the office. I have the online shopping figured out now, so driving to shop is maybe twice a month and that is combined with social trips.

#36 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-22 10:29 PM | Reply

"If you drive hundreds of miles a day, then don't get an EV, re-examine your life choices."

Traveling is not a life choice I'm willing to give up. I refuse to have my travels limited by the range of an EV.

Just as you feel sorry for me for driving so much, I feel sorry for you for not driving enough. There is a lot to see in this wonderful country in which we live. But to each his own. I'm glad the EV fits into your lifestyle. No way it fits into mine.

#37 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-22 10:31 PM | Reply

"so I don't waste 5 minutes a week pumping gas"

Well, unless you live above your station, you've left out the round-trip.

#38 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-22 10:33 PM | Reply

"Just as you feel sorry for me for driving so much, I feel sorry for you for not driving enough."

I agree! Car travel is da bomb!

Bride & I just got back from Taos & Santa Fe. Holy forking shirtballs.

#39 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-22 10:36 PM | Reply

"Car travel is da bomb!"

Full disclosure: Bride is the best travel partner, ever. I call her "Lauren Tewes, without the cocaine habit."

Old farts will get the reference.

#40 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-22 10:37 PM | Reply

"Well, unless you live above your station, you've left out the round-trip."

He hates these cans!

#41 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-22 10:39 PM | Reply

#39 - That is beautiful country. I know you had a great time. I love the American west.

I rarely fly anywhere. There is so much to see along the way to a destination and so much to experience and do..

If I owned and EV, I would not be able to explore the country because the infrastructure to charge the car simply doesn't exist. If I tried to drive from my home in Houston to San Diego, I wouldn't make it very far past San Antonio. It takes days to charge an EV using a standard 120 VAC outlet, so I would have to travel a few hours, then stay in a hotel for two days. Not very practical or affordable to say the least.

#42 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-22 10:43 PM | Reply

"He hates these cans!"

Good point.

You have to add "time avoiding snipers' bullets" into your total!

#43 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-22 10:56 PM | Reply

#43 - I don't live in Chicago, so I'm safe.

#44 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-22 10:57 PM | Reply

"That is beautiful country."

Incredible.

Personal fave was the drive up to and past Ghost Ranch, where Georgia O'Keefe lived and painted. The 7-strata rock formations were jaw-dropping.

It's like Paris and writers: If that can't inspire the Art in you, get TF out of the business.

#45 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-22 11:00 PM | Reply

#44

#41 was a reference to The Jerk.

#46 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-22 11:01 PM | Reply

#24 your charger price is rolled into the vehicle price. Not free, and unless you pay cash or get 0% most are paying interest for 3 years of interest on it on average, as EV average ownership time is 3 years vs 4 on hybrids and ICE. With Covid the cost efficiency per mile took a huge hit. EV need to be driven a lot to offset the premiums.

#47 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-10-23 08:37 AM | Reply

And then the environmental offset gets very murky as you eat tires in a heavy battery car. The carcinogens coming off the tire wear is extreme and hard tires to counter it ride badly. It goes backwards with battery swaps.

#48 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-10-23 08:39 AM | Reply

US Lipo recycling capacity cant handle the EVs we have now, nor even just our phones. Decades to go on that front and no expectation for it to catch up to needs.

#49 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-10-23 08:40 AM | Reply

#47 I paid cash, after big rebates (thanks poor people). Not sure why charger cost is added when battery cost isn't. The battery cost much more than the charger.
I agree I am not saving as much with less miles driven, but I am not wearing out my tires either. I am in my fourth year for the EV and will keep it for at least 10.
The convenience of my EV is what I like the most. I won't know the true cost comparison for at least another 5 years, maybe 10.

#50 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-23 05:16 PM | Reply

I also liked the convenience and range of my RV for road trips. Getting stuck in LA traffic for hours with kids in the back was just a rolling picnic. Leaving the Oregon eclipse was a massive traffic jam, I was flagged down by a couple, the woman was bursting, so we let her use the bathroom. I could have charged enough to buy gas, lol.
My RV has a V10, it gets about 100 miles to the polar bear, sorry planet.

#51 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-23 05:21 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

A battery compares to a fuel tank. They're just temporary storage. That's one of the cool parts of an EV, the entire battery of the average Tesla only contains the equivalent energy of 4-5 gallons of gasoline but it uses them efficiently if you drive it efficiently.

Green Financing has some basics to be aware of. Get a solar system installed and you'll be on a 10 year loan and have incentives. Buy a house with a solar array and you're paying interest for that array, hopefully you negotiated in the depreciation, the length of your home loan which is usually 25-30 years.

You're in a Leaf last I saw you mention. It's on the lighter end of EVs that are still American car sized. Shouldn't eat tires that horribly, but it is measurably faster than a vehicle of the same class driven the same way. It's a much bigger deal when we look at high mileage fleet conversion, like public transport busses.

#52 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-10-23 05:27 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"If I owned and EV, I would not be able to explore the country because the infrastructure to charge the car simply doesn't exist. If I tried to drive from my home in Houston to San Diego, I wouldn't make it very far past San Antonio."

Houston TX to San Diego CA in a Tesla: www.evtripplanner.com

#53 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-23 06:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Snoofy if you had to spend 30 minutes in Flatonia you would kill yourself.

#54 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-10-24 07:56 AM | Reply

SITZKRIEG

That's true. From where I live it takes 8 hours to get out of the state. Even if EV stations were available I wouldn't want to wait 30 minutes for a charge. It just isn't practical in time or money. And can you count on every hotel and motel along I-75 or I-95 providing a charging station for 12 hours overnight. Not likely.

Another thing. AAA can't charge your EV. The best they can do is a flat bed or tow truck.

#55 | Posted by Twinpac at 2021-10-24 08:15 AM | Reply

It doesn't matter. None of this matters. Solid-state batteries are coming. Solar power is about to skyrocket in efficiency and we just found out you can generate dark energy in a fusion reaction. And compact portable fusion reactors are about three years away, ignited by particle beam. Say hello to the singularity, my desktop compiler lets me make OpenAI projects.

Doom. DOOM. Hand me the cloak. DOOOMMM!!!

#56 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2021-10-24 08:51 AM | Reply

#55 I don't understand the aversion to taking 30 minutes to charge an EV every 3-4 hours on a long road trip. Don't you stop to eat, stretch your legs? I have done 18 hour drives with the only stop to get gas in my RV, but those were not enjoyable, I just wanted to get home, and we had the diner and bathroom with us.

#57 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-24 02:12 PM | Reply

"I don't understand the aversion"

You're not meant to.
You're supposed to nod and smile as a recalcitrant retiree shares a "back in my day" moment.
His feelings are just as valid as your facts!

#58 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-24 02:49 PM | Reply

#57

I drive for work and rarely take a lunch break as the sooner I finish the sooner I get home. Stretching my legs is handled at each customers house so for me I get my work for the day map my route for max efficency and ball the jack till I finish up and head home. If I had to stop for 30 min. to charge in the middle of the day it would mean more time working, since I'm paid by the job not hour that means less time at home for no additional money.

EV's are getting there and I'm looking forward to the day they can make a whole days work on one charge but we just aren't there yet.

#59 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2021-10-24 04:11 PM | Reply

#56 - Invader Zim?

There is the much lower cost of upkeep on electric vehicles to consider. No oil changes, transmission flushes, etc, and if you're heavy on regen, brakes could in theory last a long time - although that one I don't know, greater weight might offset it

#60 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2021-10-24 08:41 PM | Reply

#56 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT AT 2021-10-24 08:51 AM | FLAG:

You left off the "In 10 years" part lol.

#61 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-10-25 08:21 AM | Reply

#55 I don't understand the aversion to taking 30 minutes to charge an EV every 3-4 hours on a long road trip. Don't you stop to eat, stretch your legs?

#57 | POSTED BY BORED AT 2021-10-24 02:12 PM | FLAG:

Driver habits. Most people do not sit down for meals on a road trip. They grab fast food and eat on the road. Check out a Buccee's one day. Tons of food sales but little to no seating. They have charging stations too.

#62 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-10-25 08:27 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

There is the much lower cost of upkeep on electric vehicles to consider. No oil changes, transmission flushes, etc, and if you're heavy on regen, brakes could in theory last a long time - although that one I don't know, greater weight might offset it

#60 | POSTED BY ZEROPOINTNRG AT 2021-10-24 08:41 PM | FLAG:

The brakes are replaced less, but still have to be inspected and lubricated annually. Same brake fluids, same kind of pads (Tesla uses Brembo & GM-ACDelco). The problem is because they are low volume they cost more when you do replace them. You may or may not have to flush the transmission on an EV. Some are coming with transmissions because without them you don't get high speed efficiency, see the Taycan's 2 speed. Oil changes cost less than new wiper blades.

Fast Moving Parts are shock absorbers, braces, clips, roof covers, bumpers, windshield glass, grills, hinges, body panels, washer bottles, condensers, evaporators, power window motors & assemblies, mouldings, mouldings, more mouldings, wheel sensors, etc.

Some FMPs you would replace that would not be on an EV: exhaust gaskets, crank sensors, engine coolant temp sensors, exhaust o2 sensors, radiator fans & shrouds though some exist on advanced ev cooling systems, etc.

Source: I maintain the largest independent automotive parts data source in the world.

#63 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-10-25 08:42 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

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