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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Sunday, October 24, 2021

The NIH is clashing with a research group it funded for allegedly not reporting that research conducted at the Wuhan Institute of Virology resulted in a coronavirus becoming more infectious to a protein carried by humans. The group, EcoHealth Alliance, claims this information was previously published and reviewed by the NIH in April 2018.

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The righties will jump on this and gnash their teeth at Fauci for "lying" about the U.S. funding this type of research.

Equally partisan lefties will pounce on the statement by NIH that this one specific project alluded to in the article could not have led to the coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan that led to the pandemic.

Both are missing point. This is further evidence that risky gain of function research was being done at a lab which was known to have poor enforcement of safety protocols, at the very center of the SARS-Cov-2 outbreak.

#1 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-10-24 04:12 PM | Reply

Let's say that research was conducted at that lab and that a modified virus escaped and infected the population.

Had that information gotten out in the first year of the pandemic at this point Trump would have us fighting a nuclear war with China while all of the loser countries in Eastern Europe died of the Coronavirus.

If the information was withheld or covered up you should be grateful.

#2 | Posted by Tor at 2021-10-24 04:14 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

@#1 ... Both are missing point. This is further evidence that risky gain of function research was being done at a lab which was known to have poor enforcement of safety protocols, at the very center of the SARS-Cov-2 outbreak. ...

Fauci fires back at Rand Paul for slam on tonight's "Axios on HBO"
www.axios.com

...
But, but, but: Fauci told Stephanopoulos the implication of the criticism is that the research led to COVID-19.

- - But the doctor said it's "molecularly impossible for those viruses that were worked on to turn into SARS-CoV-2," or COVID-19.

- - "They were distant enough molecularly that no matter what you did to them, they could never, ever become SARS-CoV-2."

Fauci added that the U.S. "knew what the risk was and what the oversight is" at the Wuhan lab....


#3 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-24 04:26 PM | Reply

"molecularly impossible for those viruses that were worked on to turn into SARS-CoV-2," or COVID-19

Of the ones that were disclosed and Fauci knew about.

#4 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-10-24 04:39 PM | Reply

@#4 ... Of the ones that were disclosed and Fauci knew about. ...

That seems to be the gist of the cited Vanity Fair article, the previously undisclosed item (are there other undisclosed items that might contradict this one?). Now it remains to be seen if the information holds up under more open scrutiny.

As I've mentioned before, if it does turn out that the virus originated at that lab, then we will at least have a better idea of how to prevent recurrence. That is why I have always been in favor of more investigation in the area of the origin of the virus. However, I still hold the viewpoint that unless and until China cooperates fully, we will always be forming an opinion based upon incomplete information.

An that is why I maintain a healthy dose of skepticism in this area.

#5 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-24 05:11 PM | Reply

Huh.

So Trump allowed the United States to be attacked by a Chinese bioweapon.

#6 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-24 05:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Fauci lied and should go to jail. Further, he should make a public apology to Rand Paul and the American people.

You can now try to spin and still claim that the Wuhan virus did not originate in the lab or as a result of gain of function research at the lab - but you are making that claim with no evidence on your side and after having been caught in lie after lie.

Why does this matter?

For one, if the US and world governments had known exactly what the Wuhan virus was - supercharged SARS specifically enhanced to make it more deadly, the world may have been able to take steps to isolate China and not allow it to spread beyond Chinese boarders because they would have known from Day 1 that is can pass from human to human that is it airborne. This is critical information that Fauci either lied about/tried to hide or was so incompetent in his job that he funded it without knowing what it is.

Peter Daszak should be put on public trial for crimes against humanity. I would even allow the Chinese to run the trial as they are also his victim.

#7 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-24 09:50 PM | Reply

"So Trump allowed the United States to be attacked by a Chinese bioweapon.
#6 | POSTED BY SNOOFY"

Trump had that as an unproven theory.

Biden now has that as a FACT - so, the question is, what is Biden going to do China other than send his crackhead kid to pick up a few more bags of money for himself?

#8 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-24 09:51 PM | Reply

@#7 ... Fauci lied and should go to jail. ...

Please present your evidence.

#9 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-24 09:57 PM | Reply

@#7 ... You can now try to spin and still claim that the Wuhan virus did not originate in the lab or as a result of gain of function research at the lab - but you are making that claim with no evidence on your side and after having been caught in lie after lie. ...

Quite the contrary.

Those who claim that the Wuhan virus did not originate in the lab or as a result of gain of function research at the lab are the ones who needs to provide their evidence.

You're up....

#10 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-24 10:00 PM | Reply

@#8 ... "So Trump allowed the United States to be attacked by a Chinese bioweapon.
#6 | POSTED BY SNOOFY"

Trump had that as an unproven theory. ...

Are you denying that fmr Pres Trump called the virus an invisible enemy that was attacking the United States?

Trump now calling coronavirus fight a 'war' with an 'invisible enemy'
abcnews.go.com

...Referring the virus as the "enemy" and the fight as a "war," Trump said, "One day we'll be standing up here and say, 'Well, we won.' And we're going to say that, as sure as you're sitting there, we're going to win. And I think we're going to win faster than people think, I hope," adding,"If we do this right, our country -- and the world, frankly -- but our country can be rolling again pretty quickly. Pretty quickly."...


#11 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-24 10:06 PM | Reply

"Trump had that as an unproven theory."

Not according to Trump.

#12 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-24 10:09 PM | Reply

"Please present your evidence.
#9 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

That Fauci lied? That is the central point of the article - NIH has now confirmed that GoF research was ongoing at the Wuhan lab and that it was funded by Ecohealth Alliance.

There is no question that Fauci's testimony in front of the Senate was incorrect when he claimed GoF did not occur. This is 100% settled by this article.

The only question is if Fauci is so incompetent that he did not understand what he was funding so it was not a conscious lie but rather an incorrect statement because he didn't know any better.

But, please carry on trying to defend the guy - if you want to play the incompetent card, play it.

#13 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-24 10:28 PM | Reply

"Are you denying that fmr Pres Trump called the virus an invisible enemy that was attacking the United States?
Trump now calling coronavirus fight a 'war' with an 'invisible enemy'
#11 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER "

That is what a war against a virus is.

That is entirely different statement than saying that we have indisputable proof that it was a bio-weapon intentionally released on the world by the Chinese government.

The fact that is came from a lab about 90% certain as this point. However, whether it was intentionally released is unknown.

If it becomes known as an intentional act, what will Joe Biden do?

#14 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-24 10:31 PM | Reply

"Not according to Trump.

#12 | POSTED BY "SQUIRTS" DANFROTH, GED"

Squirts, how about you provide a link to Trump claiming that covid was a Chinese bio-weapon released intentionally against the US?

#15 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-24 11:20 PM | Reply

"Trump had that as an unproven theory.
Biden now has that as a FACT"

Hang on.

So you are saying China attacked us with a biological weapon... but Trump couldn't figure that out.

That's the hill 756,362 Americans have died on.

A bipweapon attack that Trump couldn't prove.

#16 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-24 11:23 PM | Reply

The demented orange --------- lied and 735,000 Americans died.

#17 | Posted by reinheitsgebot at 2021-10-24 11:31 PM | Reply

@#14 ... That Fauci lied? That is the central point of the article ...

Is it?

Then please quote the part of the article that proves that Dr Fauci lied.



#18 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-24 11:43 PM | Reply

@#14 ... That is what a war against a virus is. ...

Yes, I agree.

So how do you justify fmr Pres Trump taking side with the virus in its attack against Americans?

#19 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-24 11:45 PM | Reply

"The demented orange --------- lied and 735,000 Americans died."

Who are these 735k people who died because of Trump and when did they die? I missed that news story.

#20 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-24 11:48 PM | Reply

@#15 ... Squirts, ...

Really?

You expect your comments to be taken seriously here when you resort to childish name-calling.

How do you expect me to view any other comments you might post here on this agust board?


#21 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-24 11:52 PM | Reply

@#20

You need to try harder.


Jus' sayin'


#22 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-24 11:54 PM | Reply

#22 - it was a question, not an attempt at "trying" anything.

#23 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-25 12:02 AM | Reply

#21 - "You expect your comments to be taken seriously here when you resort to childish name-calling."

I empathize.

#24 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-25 12:04 AM | Reply

Nature created Covid 19. No lab. If man was involved it was a stupid mistake, not malice.

The horseshoe bats were the vector. All the rest is details; Blame shifting and scapegoating.

The Chinese no more wanted this pestilence than anyone else. It's bad for business. Get real.

#25 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-10-25 12:16 AM | Reply

The Chinese no more wanted this pestilence than anyone else. It's bad for business. Get real.

#25 | POSTED BY EFFETEPOSER

China hasn't paid any kind of price for this and it seems to have harmed China's economic competitors more than China itself. That doesn't mean this was deliberate biological warfare. This absolutely looks like negligence that enabled this to get out of the lab....China's actions in the immediate aftermath were, most charitably, a cover-up of sorts.

#26 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-10-25 12:22 AM | Reply

@22 ... it was a question, not an attempt at "trying" anything....

I do not deny that you asked a question.

But really, as I said, you do need to try harder.

Jus' sayin


#27 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-25 12:27 AM | Reply

" how about you provide a link to Trump claiming that covid was a Chinese bio-weapon released intentionally against the US?"

How about you admit we all heard Trump refer time and again to "The China Virus", and "Kung Flu" ...?

Stop gaslighting. We lived through it. You're insulting.

#28 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-25 12:40 AM | Reply

"But really, as I said, you do need to try harder."

Perhaps you need to try harder explaining yourself. Vague statements like, "You need to try harder" are kind of silly.

At what do I need to try harder exactly in your opinion? Don't speak in riddles, man.

#29 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-25 12:40 AM | Reply

I'm not so sure it was even a leak. Disease is unpredictable. Horseshoe bats are found throughout southern China and southeast asia,this could have emerged differently than has been portrayed. It's not knowable at this point. One thing is sure,I see no benefit to the Chinese from this horror emerging from their ecosystem,to ravage the earth and man.

Just move on.Nature has spoken here

#30 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-10-25 12:46 AM | Reply

@#29 ... Perhaps you need to try harder explaining yourself. Vague statements like, "You need to try harder" are kind of silly. ...

So you admit you got nothin'.

#31 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-25 12:53 AM | Reply

"So you admit ..."

Whatever you say, snoofy.

You need to try harder. The "so you admit" schtick is trite, lame, and grossly overplayed.

#32 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-25 12:55 AM | Reply

"How about you admit we all heard Trump refer time and again to "The China Virus", and "Kung Flu" ...?
#28 | POSTED BY "SQUIRTS" DANFROTH, GED"

Squirts - he called it the "China Virus" because it came from China. He was very clear about this in his press conferences. He never said it was a bio-weapon intentionally deployed against the US. That makes your prior contention and out and out lie. So, how about you go backtrack on that one now?

#33 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 01:05 AM | Reply

@#32 ... Whatever you say, snoofy. ...

Wow that is all ya got? A lame attempt to associate my alias with another? With no substantiation whatsoever?

That is the best you can do in this discussion?

But more importantly, that is the level of evidence you seem to require for your opinions?

Really, you need to try harder.

Really.

#34 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-25 01:22 AM | Reply

"Wow that is all ya got? "

That's all that was needed.

#35 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-25 01:24 AM | Reply

@#33 ... He was very clear about this in his press conferences. He never said it was a bio-weapon intentionally deployed against the US. ...

So why did fmr Pres Trump assist the bio-weapon in its assault of Americans?

There are two things here that need to be discussed:

1) the origin of the virus

2) fmr Pres Trump's actions against the virus that is assaulting Americans.

Your comments seem to be unable to discern the difference. Tht is unfortunate, as it is an important difference.

#36 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-25 01:28 AM | Reply

"He never said it was a bio-weapon intentionally deployed against the US."

But he should have, right?

"Trump had that as an unproven theory.
Biden now has that as a FACT"

Did China create a bioweapon or not?

Because it sure sounds like you're saying they did, and Trump did nothing to stop it... and you're blaming Fauci for Trump's inaction.

#37 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-25 01:30 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

@35 ... That's all that was needed. ..

Perhaps in your view.

But not mine.

You do really need to try harder to substantiate what your comments assert.

Jus' sayin'. :)

#38 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-25 01:31 AM | Reply

"One thing is sure,I see no benefit to the Chinese from this horror emerging from their ecosystem,to ravage the earth and man."

The China Virus has pushed America to the brink of Civil War.
That's got to be worth something!

#39 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-25 01:32 AM | Reply

"But not mine."

Oh dear. My life is ruined.

#40 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-25 01:35 AM | Reply

@#40 Oh dear. My life is ruined. ...

I note that you still have not provided any substantiation for your comments.

Not a surprise.

As I have said multiple times, you really need to try harder.

Vacuous assertions seem to be questioned.


#41 | Posted by LampLighter at 2021-10-25 01:40 AM | Reply

"You do really need to try harder to substantiate what your comments assert."

This coming from the person who thinks "so you admit.." is a zinger.

Take your own advice and try harder. Then get back with me, cowboy.

#42 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-25 01:48 AM | Reply

"I note that you still have not provided any substantiation for your comments."

So you admit you got nothing

#43 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-25 01:55 AM | Reply

"There are two things here that need to be discussed:
1) the origin of the virus"

I believe it was a lab leak, intentional or not is still to be defined. However, what is not debatable is that China - with an assist from the WHO and Dr. Fauci tried to lie and cover up its origins. The Peter Daszak Lancet letter should be grounds for a criminal referral. With this was because Fauci is was incompetent or knowing lying is the only debatable aspect.

"2) fmr Pres Trump's actions against the virus that is assaulting Americans.
#36 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER "

I think he did infinitely better than pretty much any other leader being dealt the same hand. He cut off flights, gave emergency aid to NYC and LA, gave a shut down order to the entire economy, closed the southern border, and MOST IMPORTANTLY - fast tracked the vaccines. All this while Fauci was telling people not to wear masks, vaccines were years away, and blue state governors were knowingly killing their old people and encouraging summer long rioting.

I compare this with Biden's horrific record and Biden looks even more incompetent than at first glance. He was handed 3 working vaccines on day 1 and a public conditioned to shutdowns and mask wearing - he took that and turned into 300k+ dead Americans in 9 months.

#44 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 02:42 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"I think he did infinitely better than pretty much any other leader being dealt the same hand."

I guess more deaths is better to you then:

USA: 2,268 Deaths/1M pop
South Korea: 54 Deaths/1M pop

USA ranks #16 highest in Deaths/1M pop, out of over 200 countries.

#45 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-25 02:48 AM | Reply

Yup. This thread is going exactly as I predicted.

Whether it was intended as a bioweapon or not, it's clear mainland China weaponized it after the fact, to control its own population as much as weakening its enemies.

All the evidence pointing to a lab leak is now outweighing the racist wet market one.

#46 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-10-25 03:29 AM | Reply

"I think he did infinitely better than pretty much any other leader being dealt the same hand."

All raw math to the contrary.

#47 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-25 04:42 AM | Reply

"All the evidence pointing to a lab leak is now outweighing the racist wet market one.
#46 | POSTED BY SENTINEL"

I can promise you that the wet market source is believed by 95% of the leftists on here despite having zero evidence....and for the reason you state, racism pure and simple.

#48 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 04:46 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"he called it the "China Virus" "

Thanks for admitting exactly what you denied, doofus.

"Squirts"

Yes, I admit it: I caught you in a bald-faced lie about ivermectin. You claimed it had "no known side effects", but it turned out you were lying, which was really, really easy to prove. All I did was link to an article referencing symptoms from the squirts, to seizures, severe allergic reactions, and loss of consciousness, which can be life threatening.

You were so embarrassed at being proven wrong, you've had to deflect your stupidity ever since, and as usual, target the poster who outed your lies.

Why anyone would want to continue to remind posters he'd been caught in a bald-faced lie is beyond me, but then again, it's Ima Schittturd, who famously claimed Trump would win, with 25% of the black vote...right after Comey, Clapper, and Brennen were frog-marched by the Durham Report. Take it all with a ton of salt.

#49 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-25 04:59 AM | Reply

"USA: 2,268 Deaths/1M pop
South Korea: 54 Deaths/1M pop"

Did S. Korea have a group of Democrats saying it was racist to stop travel from China? No. Did S. Korea do a shutdown of the economy like the US - no. Does S. Korea have their governors stick sick people into nursing homes among the most vulnerable? Does S. Korea have a Dr. Fauci telling people not to wear masks or do they have a masking culture stretching back to SARS? Lastly, how many vaccines did S. Korea develop?

"USA ranks #16 highest in Deaths/1M pop, out of over 200 countries.
#45 | POSTED BY SNOOFY"

Because our rates of obesity are among the worst in the world and the US did way more testing that other countries. The Dem goal was to up the death count to defeat Trump - now, you are stuck with the system under Biden which is why cases will continue for months if not years to come.

BTW, because of our obesity rate, it is not reflective of Trump - the only number that should be used is # of cases per 1M with countries that test the same amount as the US. In that case, we are slightly better than Israel. We have similar rates to the UK, Luxembourg, Sweden, Netherlands, Belgium, etc. Given the Democrats encouraged large gatherings all summer for communal riots right when the virus was being contained, it is shocking he did so well.

#50 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 05:04 AM | Reply

"The Dem goal was to up the death count to defeat Trump"

Well thank God Trump cooperated, and made mask wearing, and therefore science and therefore vaccines, political. It seems Trump did more to defeat Trump than anyone else. Biden would've got his --- kicked had Trump not screwed up the pandemic so badly. That must really sting.

Dr. Birx said all deaths above 100k were due to Trump. Is there any science to dispute that fact?

#51 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-25 05:18 AM | Reply

" Given the Democrats encouraged large gatherings all summer for communal riots ... "

Outdoor, and with a sizable percentage masked. Plus, follow up studies have shown no superspreading, unlike say, Sturgis.

Are you too lazy for that research, or were you planning to lie regardless?

#52 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-25 05:24 AM | Reply

" the only number that should be used is # of cases per 1M with countries that test the same amount as the US."

Moron Math.

It's the same type of stupidity that claimed we wouldn't have cases ... if we just didn't test.

#53 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-25 05:27 AM | Reply

"he called it the "China Virus" "
Thanks for admitting exactly what you denied"

I never denied that - your contention is that he stated China it was a Chinese bio-weapon purposefully launched against the US. Trump never stated that. He said it came for "Chy-na"....that is all.

"Yes, I admit it: I caught you in a bald-faced lie about ivermectin. You claimed it had "no known side effects
#49 | POSTED BY "SQUIRTS" DANFROTH, GED"

Everything has side effects. Drink too much water, breathe too much oxygen - you will die. But, ivermectin gives you the squirts and does not cause death. That is what the doses administered to humans is in the billions.

At the end of the day, you were worried about your white pantsuit...understandable.

#54 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 05:36 AM | Reply

"It's the same type of stupidity that claimed we wouldn't have cases ... if we just didn't test.
#53 | POSTED BY "SQUIRTS" DANFROTH, GED"

That is what Biden proposed. Maybe you should take it up with him Squirts. I am sure he would value your insights into medical matters given your extensive experience in expressionist dance studies.

#55 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 05:38 AM | Reply

There is no clear evidence of anything other than a zoonotic origin for Covid 19. Why look under the plate for the food? It's right there.

MERS, SARS, both obviously natural in origin. Viruses make that leap all the time.

This whole thread is sound and fury signifying nothing.

The Chinese have nothing to gain from a deliberate release. It kills them too. It's bad for business, it could if proved to be deliberately leaked lead to war and loss of markets. The whole thing is just not realistic.

I know having a "villian" is somehow more satisfying emotionally then just bad luck, but bad luck us much more likely here.

#56 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-10-25 09:56 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"USA: 2,268 Deaths/1M pop
South Korea: 54 Deaths/1M pop"

"Did S. Korea have a group of Democrats saying it was racist to stop travel from China?"

Wow dude.
Democrats were not running the country.
Trump was running the country.

#57 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-25 11:43 AM | Reply

There isn't a single aspect of any of this that "skeptical" hasn't intentionally misrepresented.

What a dishonest sack of ---- that ------- is.

#58 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 12:05 PM | Reply

" Everything has side effects."

Then why did you claim ivermectin had none? Why lie about it?

What's in it for you? Rubles?

#59 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-25 12:31 PM | Reply

" But, ivermectin gives you the squirts and does not cause death."

And once again, you leave out the serious side effects of seizures, severe allergic reaction, and loss of consciousness, which can be life-threatening.

See why everyone views you as a lying SOS?

#60 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-25 12:36 PM | Reply

Fauci lied and should go to jail.

And still these idiots demand we believe they're not authoritarian POSes.

You can now try to spin and still claim that the Wuhan virus did not originate in the lab or as a result of gain of function research at the lab - but you are making that claim with no evidence on your side and after having been caught in lie after lie.

There isn't sufficient evidence to make a definitive claim either way. Anyone doing so can't support their argument as concretely as necessary.

supercharged SARS specifically enhanced to make it more deadly,

There is literally no evidence or information to support this absurd statement.

Stick to making lame ass fast food worker "digs," it's about the only thing you seem to do well.

#61 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 12:39 PM | Reply

The only question is if Fauci is so incompetent that he did not understand what he was funding so it was not a conscious lie but rather an incorrect statement because he didn't know any better.

As if you have a clue what constitutes GoF research or what science funding is like.

Do you really think Fauci reads every grant submitted to NIAID? Do you have any idea how many grants that is and what the breadth of topics it encompasses?

God damn I understand how climate scientists feel now, having to listen to scientifically illiterate morons proclaim idiocy as if they have a clue.

#62 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 12:45 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The fact that is came from a lab about 90% certain as this point.

Not even close, numbnuts.

#63 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 12:45 PM | Reply

Actually confession time. I made Covid. I wanted to work from home. My freedom is more important than your safety.

#64 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-25 12:53 PM | Reply

"Fauci lied and should go to jail."

What should he go to jail for? Name the crime.

#65 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-25 12:59 PM | Reply

I believe it was a lab leak

Because you're a scientifically illiterate moron who can only regurgitate what is told to them.

I think he did infinitely better than pretty much any other leader being dealt the same hand.

Yeah sure, Orange ----------.

He cut off flights,

To Chinese nationals only coming from China. Nothing about non-Chinese flying from China or anyone flying from anywhere else.

This talking point has been long debunked (not that it ever had much legitimacy anyway) and is only parroted by orange ----------- showing their allegiance to Dear Leader.

gave emergency aid to NYC and LA, gave a shut down order to the entire economy,

He did? Other than the hospital ships that sat largely empty because of the ridiculous requirements to get onboard, what else did "he" give?

And I seem to remember that other than a short initial shutdown he didn't do a damn thing. After May/June 2020 shutdowns were entirely driven by states.

closed the southern border,

So? The numbers coming across are negligible compared to the number of unvaxxed morons running around. A year ago COVID didn't need any help spreading.

#66 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 01:04 PM | Reply

and MOST IMPORTANTLY - fast tracked the vaccines.

All he did was front some public money. That's it.

The vaccine platforms were already developed, the COVID-specific vaccines were already formulated and being produced/tested when WarpSpeed started.

Stop being such a ---- holster.

All this while Fauci was telling people not to wear masks, vaccines were years away, and blue state governors were knowingly killing their old people and encouraging summer long rioting.

You're such a dishonest sack of ----.

Early on, masks weren't necessary and there was a need to balance PPE supplies between clinical settings and people in grocery stores.

Never said vaccines were years away, just that the usual timeline was a few years and that there couldn't be a guarantee of rapid vaccine rollout. An entirely responsible position to take as a public health official.

Finally, the Cuomo situation is another dumb ---- talking point used by illiterate morons who don't actually know what they're talking about. The patients moved into the homes were recovering patients long past their contagious phase who needed long term care but were better off not being in a hospital where they ran a high risk of acquiring another infection while taking up a much needed bed. The chances are overwhelmingly in favor of staff introducing the virus into the homes.

I compare this with Biden's horrific record and Biden looks even more incompetent than at first glance. He was handed 3 working vaccines on day 1 and a public conditioned to shutdowns and mask wearing - he took that and turned into 300k+ dead Americans in 9 months.

#44 | POSTED BY SKEPTICAL

A public conditioned to shutdowns and wearing masks LOL

Look, everyone clearly knows you're an idiot but that doesn't mean everyone else is just as stupid as you are. Those acting against Trump's policies were doing the things we should have been doing-masking, distancing and getting vaxxed as soon as possible.

Those acting against Biden's policies have made life worse for everyone by doing what we shouldn't be doing-refusing to mask, get vaxxed or distance.

But sure, we're totally a society "conditioned to shutdowns and masks."

STFU ------.

#67 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 01:14 PM | Reply

"Orange --- guzzler."

Come on, man, WTF is wrong with you? I'm trying to eat orange yogurt here, and you're ruining it.

#68 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-10-25 01:16 PM | Reply

All the evidence pointing to a lab leak is now outweighing the racist wet market one.

#46 | POSTED BY SENTINEL

Another scientifically illiterate moron giving his Dunning-Kruger opinion.

The market hypothesis was discarded over a year ago. It became clear by the mid-summer 2020 that the market wasn't the source of the infection, just that it was disseminated widely among people there by a person who was infected. At the same time it was determined that the initial spread among people in Wuhan was at least as early as October 2019, not November/December as initially thought.

In any case, the "evidence" pointing to a lab leak isn't outweighing anything. It's entirely circumstantial with many caveats that can equally pertain to the zoonosis hypothesis.

#69 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 01:22 PM | Reply

Come on, man, WTF is wrong with you? I'm trying to eat orange yogurt here, and you're ruining it.

#68 | POSTED BY SENTINEL

Are you sluuuuuuuurrping while you eat it?

#70 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 01:23 PM | Reply

Because our rates of obesity are among the worst in the world

Certainly part the problem but one a competent leader would have taken into account. Same with DeathSentence being governor of a state with a high proportion of seniors.

and the US did way more testing that other countries.

Not until quite a way into the pandemic. The reason why countries like SK did so well is that they implemented widespread, easy testing IMMEDIATELY. Something the US failed to do for various reasons.

The Dem goal was to up the death count to defeat Trump

GFYS.

now, you are stuck with the system under Biden which is why cases will continue for months if not years to come.

More scientifically illiterate garbage.

Cases will continue in perpetuity because the virus isn't going to ever be eradicated. It will become endemic and there is no stopping that now. Has nothing to do with Bide.

>Given the Democrats encouraged large gatherings all summer for communal riots right when the virus was being contained, it is shocking he did so well.

#50 | POSTED BY SKEPTICAL

More regurgitated garbage.

There is zero evidence of significant spreading events at protests. But that hasn't stopped mouthbreathing --------- like you from parroting that talking point as if it's true.

#71 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 01:33 PM | Reply

Occam's razor. The zoonotic hypothesis is the most likely in my opinion. One billion chinese, bats harboring similar virii. A culture that eats literally anything. What could possibly go wrong?

It's not racist to say they eat bats and dogs and cats if they actually do.

The close contact with wildlife is a known means of zoonotic leaps by pathogens. It's not satisfying perhaps, it's a little boring really, but there you go.

#72 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-10-25 01:40 PM | Reply

#72 Not to mention the SARS and MERS were both zoonotic. The lessons learned from those two outbreaks let to Obama's White House Pandemic Preparedness team, which Trump couldn't see the value of like the fool he is.

#73 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-25 01:45 PM | Reply

"There is zero evidence of significant spreading events at protests.

You are being disingenuous. It was clear from live footage and streaming that the protesters were not social distancing nor were most wearing masks. You can't have it both ways and call things like the Sturgis or Trump rallies "super spreader" events and pretend that these other events with people in close proximity were not significant vectors at the time.

#74 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-10-25 02:10 PM | Reply

#70 is revealing way too much about himself with that comment.

#75 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-10-25 02:13 PM | Reply

"Occam's razor."

towardsdatascience.com

#76 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-10-25 02:18 PM | Reply

So how about simple honesty. The virus is 99% similar to known other coronaviruses. What actual motive do the Chinese have for releasing this if they did? Viruses jump zoonotically all the time, in fact, every known epidemic has been traced to animal origins.

Forget the term "Occam's razor" how would you explain this virus becoming a human problem?

Even the lab theory has an animal vector as the original source of contagion. No one is disputing that. They just think the Chinese were weaponizing or studying dangerous virii and one got loose. I think that's probably not the case.

Why do you believe otherwise? No other epidemic in history has started the way people are describing this one.

Even if it's really a lab leak the original virus is natural in origin. Just one more unnecessary step, A detail at most.

#77 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-10-25 02:45 PM | Reply

You are being disingenuous. It was clear from live footage and streaming that the protesters were not social distancing nor were most wearing masks. You can't have it both ways and call things like the Sturgis or Trump rallies "super spreader" events and pretend that these other events with people in close proximity were not significant vectors at the time.
#74 | POSTED BY SENTINEL

Not even a little because I'm base my opinions on actual data, not innuendo and personal desire.

Cities/counties with significant protests didn't see significant changes to case loads in the week following. Some states/counties set up free testing centers for people who participated in the protests because of concerns that spread could occur. Those centers had positivity rates on par with neighboring counties that didn't have protests and in line with the general population who didn't participate.

As for the rest that's just nonsense. The issue is and always will be outside vs inside. Trump's rallies were inside. High profile attendees got COVID and died. Sturgis is both indoors and outdoors and had actual data linking a burst in cases nationally to attendees of the rally.

So no, the fact that you've got a bunch of false equivalencies to offer up doesn't make me the disingenuous one.

#78 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 03:02 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#13 That is the central point of the article - NIH has now confirmed that GoF research was ongoing at the Wuhan lab and that it was funded by Ecohealth Alliance.

You should re-read the article. The NIH has not said GoF research was ongoing at the Wuhan lab. The Ecohealth Alliance work was not GoF research as described. The Coronavirus they were working with was not Covid-19.

The article contains false claims from Satan's soldiers (republicans), but no evidence of GoF or Covid-19 experiments or a lab leak.

#79 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-25 03:44 PM | Reply

"Not even a little because I'm base my opinions on actual data, not innuendo and personal desire."

Oh really...

Background
Protests ignited by the George Floyd incident were examined for any significant impact on COVID-19 infection rates in select US cities.

Methods
Eight US cities were studied in which protestors in the tens of thousands were reported. Only cities that reside in states whose stay-at-home orders had been rescinded or expired for a minimum of 30 days were included in the sample to account for impact of growth rates solely due to economies reopening. Event study methodology was used with a 30-day estimation period to examine whether growth in COVID-19 infection rates was significant.

Results
In the eight cities analyzed, all had positive abnormal growth in infection rate. In six of the eight cities, infection rate growth was positive and significant.

Conclusions
In this study, it was apparent that violations of Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)-recommended social distancing guidelines caused a significant increase in infection rates.


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

#80 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-10-25 06:43 PM | Reply

"Even if it's really a lab leak the original virus is natural in origin. Just one more unnecessary step, A detail at most."

All the other deflections could have been left out of your comment, since this is really all you're saying, that the realistic possibility of a man-made lab leak is just a little detail. Basically you're just humming along with all the propaganda discouraging people from even looking at this by repeating red herrings and straw man arguments, throwing in some innuendo and insinuations to boot. Maybe you just don't want to think about the implications of it. Otherwise, I don't know what your angle is on this.

#81 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-10-25 07:04 PM | Reply

Who gains from persuing your line of reasoning?

Why is it so important to know if the natural virus jumped from a bat or from a bat to a test tube to humanity? Does blaming someone give you "closure"? If the leak was accidental, does causing rage and recriminations against China gain anyone anything? The protocols obviously must be strengthened if this was a leak. What else should be done?

War, sanctions, what? What's Your Endgame here?

If people knew this was leaked and even suspected malice the racist behavior against Asians you constantly decry would be far worse than anything we've seen so far.

Do you want that outcome? Cuz that's just what you'd get.

#82 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-10-25 07:24 PM | Reply

"So how about simple honesty. The virus is 99% similar to known other coronaviruses."

That is the logical result of starting with a naturally occurring virus and then using GoF to make it more dangerous - exactly what the NIH is now admitting happened.

"What actual motive do the Chinese have for releasing this if they did? Viruses jump zoonotically all the time, in fact, every known epidemic has been traced to animal origins."

I side on accidental release due to incompetence at the Wuhan lab. The fact is that they should not have been doing this research at that lab in the first place. As to animal origins, probably would have a stronger case if the wet market actually had these types of bats - they didn't. However, we know with 100% certainty that the lab did.

"Forget the term "Occam's razor" how would you explain this virus becoming a human problem?"

GoF - they took an animal virus and made it so that it could more easily attack human lung tissue.

"Even the lab theory has an animal vector as the original source of contagion. No one is disputing that. They just think the Chinese were weaponizing or studying dangerous virii and one got loose. I think that's probably not the case."

No one thinks they had to engineer a completely unique virus - you start with something deadly but not able to infect humans and then you use GoF so that it can easily infect humans. Why would they want to do this? Maybe military, maybe for honorable purposes like getting in front of the next virus. The point of the matter is that they should not have been doing that type of research and definitely not doing at that facility.

"Why do you believe otherwise? No other epidemic in history has started the way people are describing this one.
#77 | POSTED BY EFFETEPOSER"

Well, some claim HIV started in a similar way - a lab leak. But, to your point, 40 years ago they could not do G0F in this way because it took too long. So, it is not surprising this did not occur before - however, we do have many instances of labs accidentially leaking deadly viruses.

#83 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 07:28 PM | Reply

"In any case, the "evidence" pointing to a lab leak isn't outweighing anything. It's entirely circumstantial with many caveats that can equally pertain to the zoonosis hypothesis.
#69 | POSTED BY JPW"

And a year ago you were calling everyone an idiot that did not believe the wet market nonsense and a conspiracy theorist for anyone saying it came from a lab leak - I bet if I looked, I can find you even touting the Daszak's Lancet article as definitive proof it could not have come from the lab.

At the same time, you were serving as Exhibit A for anyone that said the lab leak was likely because they were staffed by morons with a completely unjustified ego that believed they could do no wrong despite decades of continual failures and screw ups. I don't trust you to wash your hands after pitching a deuce and then returning to your fry cook job at McDonalds. I sure as hell don't trust you to handle deadly pathogens.

#84 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 07:56 PM | Reply

"The protocols obviously must be strengthened if this was a leak."

You answered your own rhetorical question here. Yet you still insist on regurgitating the same tactics I pointed out in the comment above yours to discourage anyone from looking at this or seriously considering it.

#85 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-10-25 08:17 PM | Reply

#85 All evidence related to the origin of Covid should be sought. So far, there is no evidence Covid originated in a lab or was leaked from one. They haven't found it in nature either, but zoonosis is the most common source of new viruses.

#86 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-25 08:28 PM | Reply

Say it was a leak, just for argument's sake. What should be done? I'm asking you. So far you haven't said much. What is the proper course of action in the event that this was an accidental leak of biohazardous material that lead to 5 million deaths and counting?

Who should be held accountable and how?

#87 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-10-25 08:33 PM | Reply

"Who should be held accountable and how?
#87 | POSTED BY EFFETEPOSER"

1.) Daszak, if he did misrepresent his work to get funding, should be on trial for crimes against humanity
2.) The Chinese government should be economically sanctioned by all developed nations - they were in the best position to know the actual source and have taken every action to obscure it. If they would have confirmed that covid was a bio-engineered SARS virus, the world would have taken different actions to restrict travel and limited the fallout to China. Given the CCP actions, the spread of covid outside of China WAS 100% INTENTIONAL.
3.) Dr. Fauci should be jailed for lying to Congress - if he was too stupid to know of the research at the time of it occurring, fine. But, he lied to the Senate just a month ago after he had plenty of time to get all the facts.
4.) The WHO should be completely disbanded/defunded - the US can work with the G8 to reform a legitimate group

That would be a good start.

#88 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 08:42 PM | Reply

Why not war? Sounds like that's where you want to go? Why just sanctions,why not bombs? If the release was intentional, war would be a reasonable response.

#89 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-10-25 09:01 PM | Reply

#80 | POSTED BY SENTINEL

LOL

They only looked at cities that were reopened. In other words, data sets with all the background noise of nobody following mitigation measures.

Notice the one city that wasn't in the deep south of idiots? It stayed constant despite having very large protests.

Try again.

#90 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 09:09 PM | Reply

www.vox.com

And the paper they talked about.

www.nber.org

#91 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 09:12 PM | Reply

Otherwise, I don't know what your angle is on this.

#81 | POSTED BY SENTINEL

You don't seem to know much when it comes to this.

#92 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 09:12 PM | Reply

I don't think the release was intentional. I think the Wuhan lab got sloppy.

-=or=-

The Chinese were working on a bio-weapon. But it would not be effective unless their own people were vaccinated. Perhaps they were working on that vaccine, erroneously thought it worked, and the folks on whom it was tested unwittingly spread it.

It sure is strange that the Chinese had a vaccine 6 months before the other three popular ones began rollout. It's almost as if the Chinese were already working on it.

I'm not a conspiracy guy, but I don't think that scenario is outside the realm of possibility.

#93 | Posted by jakester at 2021-10-25 09:13 PM | Reply

"Why not war? Sounds like that's where you want to go? Why just sanctions,why not bombs? If the release was intentional, war would be a reasonable response."

Just come out and say it. You want the truth to be covered up.

#94 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-10-25 09:20 PM | Reply

That is the logical result of starting with a naturally occurring virus and then using GoF to make it more dangerous - exactly what the NIH is now admitting happened.

Except we've seen and are seeing adaptation to humans in real time.

So what, exactly, did the GoF do if we're seeing it adapt to humans as hosts over the past year, which is what we would expect to see if zoonosis or lab infection with a bat virus was the root cause?

Just admit you don't know what you're talking about when you say GoF and we can move on from there.

As to animal origins, probably would have a stronger case if the wet market actually had these types of bats - they didn't. However, we know with 100% certainty that the lab did.

The zoonotic jump didn't happen at the market. Human to human spread really took off at the market by an infected person going to the market.

We have no idea how long this virus could have smoldered in rural China before being brought to an urban center and spreading.

GoF - they took an animal virus and made it so that it could more easily attack human lung tissue.

Or inefficient, low level spread between humans allowed it to adapt to spread more efficiently.

Neither can be definitively ruled out.

Well, some claim HIV started in a similar way - a lab leak. But, to your point, 40 years ago they could not do G0F in this way because it took too long. So, it is not surprising this did not occur before - however, we do have many instances of labs accidentially leaking deadly viruses.

#83 | POSTED BY SKEPTICAL

Some claim a lot of things. Doesn't mean a thing.

And define "too long." Because in vitro adaptation is still GoF and doesn't really take all that long if you know what you're doing.

#95 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 09:21 PM | Reply

"LOL"

LOL at yourself, Johnny -------. You're claiming the NIH isn't credible and citing an opinion piece and an article from an economics (soft science) site that confirm your bias.

#96 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-10-25 09:24 PM | Reply

And a year ago you were calling everyone an idiot that did not believe the wet market nonsense and a conspiracy theorist for anyone saying it came from a lab leak - I bet if I looked, I can find you even touting the Daszak's Lancet article as definitive proof it could not have come from the lab.

Look away because I know you won't find it.

My view has always been that anything short of a lab worker's hospital records showing COVID symptoms in a lab worker from Wuhan in September/October 2020 will be circumstantial.

And so far that's all we have-circumstantial evidence.

Why? Because a lab worker infected with a naturally occurring bat virus won't seem any different than a person acquiring a bat virus from a bat or intermediary species.

At the same time, you were serving as Exhibit A for anyone that said the lab leak was likely because they were staffed by morons with a completely unjustified ego that believed they could do no wrong despite decades of continual failures and screw ups.

This coming from a person who hasn't set a foot in a lab in their life.

So STFU you arrogantly stupid -----.

I don't trust you to wash your hands after pitching a deuce and then returning to your fry cook job at McDonalds. I sure as hell don't trust you to handle deadly pathogens.

#84 | POSTED BY SKEPTICAL

Because you're a ------- retarded loser who thinks the fry cook dig is worth using. Why? Because you're barely above a fry cook and need someone to look down on.

#97 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 09:25 PM | Reply

They haven't found it in nature either, but zoonosis is the most common source of new viruses.

#86 | POSTED BY BORED

The closest known relatives have been found after the pandemic started.

In Laos.

The lab leak hypothesis requires either (a) synthesis of a novel virus with no obvious markers of chimerism or recombination or (b) unconfirmable assertions of destroyed data or samples.

Both of which require bigger leaps of logic than the previous mechanism of pandemics-zoonotic transfer.

#98 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 09:29 PM | Reply

LOL at yourself, Johnny -------. You're claiming the NIH isn't credible and citing an opinion piece and an article from an economics (soft science) site that confirm your bias.

#96 | POSTED BY SENTINEL

I'll LOL all night long at you, SSentinel.

You're so unaware of what you're dabbling in you think the NIH is associated with that study LOL

And you're so unaware of how to dabble in it you think cherry picking one study that clearly states a massive confounding factor that is a red flag to anyone who actually thinks makes a point LOL

Want to keep going?

LOL

#99 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 09:32 PM | Reply

If the release was intentional, not an act of negligence, or the Chinese government actively promoted it's spread abroad to kill other nations war would be inevitable. Would that be a good outcome?

5 million disease deaths followed by untold numbers of military and civilians deaths if war broke out as a result of Chinese actions with the virus.

I'd take a coverup. A coverup would cause far fewer additional deaths, and if the US government knew the truth but hid it to avoid war. I would be ok with that.

More deaths Is NOT a win.

#100 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-10-25 09:37 PM | Reply

I'd take a coverup.

China is covering up no matter what.

Their culture places high value on saving face, especially the CCP who can't be seen as doing any wrong by the people.

#101 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 09:40 PM | Reply

#100, it sounds like you believe it was more likely intentional than not.

#102 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-10-25 09:40 PM | Reply

I actually believe it smoldered in rural China for months or years before emerging as a zoonotic event. The CCP may have obscured it's origins but not had anything to do with it directly. They may have been concerned about trade and business issues or the reaction of the world to it's arrival as a human pathogen.

The Chinese tend to be secretive, they probably hoped it could be contained domestically.

Bad decision. I don't believe the Chinese government is as Evil as you seem to be alleging,I think they were blindsided and in denial when the SHTF.

#103 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-10-25 09:52 PM | Reply

"If the release was intentional, not an act of negligence, or the Chinese government actively promoted it's spread abroad to kill other nations war would be inevitable.
#100 | POSTED BY EFFETEPOSER"

Well, now we are getting somewhere.

If the Chinese government knew it was a leaked bio-engineered virus with human to human transmission and airborne vectors - which is why they immediately located down and isolated Wuhan for domestic travel within China - but allowed international flights with no screening, etc - would you consider that 'actively promoting' or just lacking standard care protocols?

#104 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 09:54 PM | Reply

"I actually believe it smoldered in rural China for months or years before emerging
#103 | POSTED BY EFFETEPOSER "

Then the route to the natural origin would be easy to trace. Further, the fact that it emerged in Wuhan would make no sense. However, the location of the WIV makes a ton of sense.

#105 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 09:56 PM | Reply

"If the Chinese government knew it was a leaked bio-engineered virus with human to human transmission and airborne vectors - which is why they immediately located down and isolated Wuhan for domestic travel within China - but allowed international flights with no screening, etc - would you consider that 'actively promoting' or just lacking standard care protocols?"

The operative information here is that it was a virus with human to human transmission and airborne vectors, just like SARS and MERS.

Trump keep letting the planes from China land here, when his military intelligence advisors, his health advisors, and his economic advisors were telling him in November and December that it's only a matter of time.

Whose fault is that?

#106 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-25 09:59 PM | Reply

" I don't believe the Chinese government is as Evil as you seem to be alleging,I think they were blindsided and in denial when the SHTF."

China is beside the point.
What matters is how America responded.

Here is how Trump responded, on Jan 24, 2020:
"China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus. The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!"

#107 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-25 10:02 PM | Reply

"Then the route to the natural origin would be easy to trace."

Why do you know this, but Trump didn't know this?

#108 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-25 10:02 PM | Reply

Globalization make diseases far more likely to spread. Our economies and supply chains would not have allowed the isolation required to prevent this from becoming global once it emerged and became widely transmissible.

If air travel from both China and Europe were immediately totally shut down it still wouldn't have stopped it.

It might have bought some time,but Trump was too stupid and unimaginative to have used that time to any good purpose.

Sometimes, ---- Just Happens,no point in blaming people now. We are where we are.

#109 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-10-25 10:10 PM | Reply

"Trump keep letting the planes from China land here, when his military intelligence advisors, his health advisors, and his economic advisors were telling him in November and December that it's only a matter of time.
#106 | POSTED BY SNOOFY"

Which advisors were those? In Feb 2020, Pelosi was running around the SF Chinatown telling people that stopping flights from China was racist - did she not have access to any of that advisor information? The Dems were completely blindsided or were they knowingly complicit?

#110 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 10:20 PM | Reply

Then the route to the natural origin would be easy to trace. Further, the fact that it emerged in Wuhan would make no sense. However, the location of the WIV makes a ton of sense.

#105 | Posted by Skeptical

Easy? LOL It took ten years to trace the origin of SARS.

No, it wouldn't make it easy to trace.

And yes, it does make sense that it would emerge in a large urban center like Wuhan. That's where the people are, which is necessary for widespread transmission.

#111 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 10:20 PM | Reply

In Feb 2020, Pelosi was running around the SF Chinatown telling people that stopping flights from China was racist

No, you lying sack of ----. She was calling out Trump's travel ban that only prohibited travel to the US by Chinese nationals from China.

As if only chinese people carried the virus and only from China.

You've been corrected on this twice in one day. Any further use of that talking point is willful stupidity and dishonesty.

#112 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 10:22 PM | Reply

"If air travel from both China and Europe were immediately totally shut down it still wouldn't have stopped it."

It would have slowed the spread.

"It might have bought some time,but Trump was too stupid and unimaginative to have used that time to any good purpose."

He got 3 vaccines online. If travel could have been stopped, we could have eliminated the curve, not flattened it.

"Sometimes, ---- Just Happens,no point in blaming people now. We are where we are.
#109 | POSTED BY EFFETEPOSER"

The main problem is that Americans are too fat. People with a BMI over 30 have a 6x higher chance of death. So, the US was a time bomb for this type of virus.

So, the real question is that we know what we know now - and yet, Biden is still allowing Biden-covid variants to enter the country: delta, lambda, mu, etc. That is negligence at a minimum.

#113 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 10:28 PM | Reply

"it does make sense that it would emerge in a large urban center like Wuhan.
#111 | POSTED BY JPW"

A large urban area a thousand miles away from where the bats are located....riiiiigght.....

"No, you lying sack of ----. She was calling out Trump's travel ban that only prohibited travel to the US by Chinese nationals from China.
#112 | POSTED BY JPW"

So Pelosi was calling for a complete travel ban? Oh, she wasn't? She just wanted more travel by mainland Chinese where the disaster was unfolding. That makes perfect sense.

#114 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 10:32 PM | Reply

A large urban area a thousand miles away from where the bats are located....riiiiigght.....

Because people can't or don't move around...riiigghhhhttt.

So Pelosi was calling for a complete travel ban? Oh, she wasn't? She just wanted more travel by mainland Chinese where the disaster was unfolding. That makes perfect sense.

#114 | Posted by Skeptical

You really are this stupid, aren't you?

#115 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 10:39 PM | Reply

Nobody knew how to deal with this. It was a NOVEL coronavirus, this was not a movie. Everyone was in denial about the implications of what was happening quickly in real time.

People are not perfect, imagination is rare and usually ignored by the mainstream. A quick and decisive response was essential, but nobody wanted to be that decisive when doubt and denial were easier and apparently less risky to business and social interests at the time.

Global warming will likely unfold in a similar way. Denial of it's true implications will prevail until the true depth of the problem is unstoppable and undeniable, but then it will be too late to stop the worst effects and we will be playing catch up.

Human behavior is based on past and ongoing conditions, gradual changes that seem innocuous are usually ignored or minimized until a crisis point is reached.

History is full of such occurances.

Whole civilizations have ended because people could not change quickly enough to survive changing conditions.

#116 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-10-25 10:47 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Because people can't or don't move around...riiigghhhhttt.
#115 | POSTED BY JPW"

And it skips all the cities in between and just happens to become a pandemic in the exact city with the biolab that is specifically studying the exact virus in addition to having a history of lab leaks.

When you caught your wife having sex with your brother and she told you how she tripped and how his penis just happened to enter her repeatedly as she was slipping and having trouble standing up - did you believe her?

#117 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 10:48 PM | Reply

"People are not perfect, imagination is rare and usually ignored by the mainstream. A quick and decisive response was essential, but nobody wanted to be that decisive when doubt and denial were easier and apparently less risky to business and social interests at the time.
#116 | POSTED BY EFFETEPOSER"

I don't disagree with anything that you wrote. I would say that is likely what Trump was trying to accomplish by encouraging Chinese containment efforts and stopping general US panic. This becomes 100% political when the Left simultaneously condemns Trump for trying to maintain order while praising Fauci for telling people they didn't need masks.

#118 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 11:00 PM | Reply

And it skips all the cities in between

In between what?

What species of horseshoe bat carries SARS-CoV-2?

Because SARS like viruses have been found in multiple countries in different bats.

So which one, specifically, carries SARS-CoV-2 and how far is their range from Wuhan?

#119 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 11:02 PM | Reply

"In between what?
What species of horseshoe bat carries SARS-CoV-2?
#119 | POSTED BY JPW "

The one with the 98% match before they used GoF to make the spike protein.

They are from 1000 miles away and were never sold at the Wuhan wet market.

You didn't answer my question about your wife's "accident"

#120 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 11:06 PM | Reply

I would say that is likely what Trump was trying to accomplish by encouraging Chinese containment efforts and stopping general US panic.

Then why ban only Chinese nationals from China while doing nothing about anyone else (including Chinese nationals) from anywhere else while sending completely unprepared response teams to CA to process returning Americans from Wuhan?

Because the above is fantasy -------- predicated more on your desire to paint your Lord and Savior Trumpus Christ in a good light, that's why.

#121 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 11:10 PM | Reply

The one with the 98% match before they used GoF to make the spike protein.

I'm talking about the bats, ------, not the virus.

You're too scientifically illiterate to even understand that basic question.

Let me rephrase.

Even scientists don't know the exact bat species that is the animal reservoir of SARS-CoV-2.

So how do you know (a) what bat species is the animal reservoir and (b) how far away is it from Wuhan?

They are from 1000 miles away and were never sold at the Wuhan wet market.

They've found SARS-like viruses in locations all over place. In China and other countries. Laos being the most genetically similar to SARS-CoV-2.

If you actually knew what was going on you'd see that what that tells us is that we know very little about the viral landscape of these viruses and how widely distributed they are.

#122 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-25 11:13 PM | Reply

Villains and heroes are easier to accept. They fit a familiar narrative. Real life is slow, and a process, not a narrative. It's not dramatic, it's suble and not linear. Nobody could really grasp the enormity of what was happening when it was happening. Mistakes were inevitable and mostly because this occurrence was so new and not foreseeable by most people.

Trump was really incompetent however. He saw the whole thing as some sideshow to his own personal worldview. He really has the mind of a Psychotic, he can't see anything not in his actual experience as real or relevant to his actions. No imagination at all, no curiosity at all. Trump is feeble minded and totally self involved to the point of true mental illness.

The worst possible leader at a time of novel infectious disease, he caused hundreds of thousands of needless deaths.

Mostly because he was stupidly self obsessed.

Not because of gothic evil; the deaths were just as real though.

#123 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-10-25 11:35 PM | Reply

"They've found SARS-like viruses in locations all over place. In China and other countries. Laos being the most genetically similar to SARS-CoV-2.
#122 | POSTED BY JPW"

And after they found them from 1000's of miles away or in other countries - what did they do? Oh, they collected samples, many times unsafely, and then brought back live samples to the WUHAN INSTITUTE OF VIROLOGY where they used GoF research to make them more deadly and transmissible to humans under civilian and military projects....and you see no connection whatsoever to that and that covid just happened to erupt in Wuhan.

Again, did you believe your wife after her 'accident'?

#124 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 11:43 PM | Reply

Which advisors were those?
#110 | POSTED BY SKEPTICAL

As I said: Military, Intelligence, Economic.
abcnews.go.com

Trump ignored them.
And now you're pretending it never happened.

#125 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-25 11:43 PM | Reply

"In Feb 2020, Pelosi was running around the SF Chinatown telling people that stopping flights from China was racist "

So?

"Whatabout Nancy" has no bearing whatsoever on Trump's failure to act on intelligence from November and December 2019.

Unless you're saying Nancy somehow blocked Trump from protecting America? Is that what you're saying?

#126 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-25 11:46 PM | Reply

"The worst possible leader at a time of novel infectious disease, he caused hundreds of thousands of needless deaths.
#123 | POSTED BY EFFETEPOSER"

If not for Trump and Warp Speed, the global death toll would be magnitudes higher. Again, Biden's record is much worse than Trump's so saying he is the worse possible leader is pretty disingenuous when we have a example of you 'competent leader' delivering the current results.

#127 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 11:46 PM | Reply

"As I said: Military, Intelligence, Economic.
abcnews.go.com"

It uses unnamed sources....and is followed by this gem:

"Wednesday night, the Pentagon issued a statement denying the "product/assessment" existed."

So, you are making an argument constructed form whole cloth.

"Trump ignored them.
And now you're pretending it never happened.
#125 | POSTED BY SNOOFY"

Your own linked source explicitly states that IT NEVER HAPPENED.

#128 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-25 11:49 PM | Reply

"If not for Trump and Warp Speed, the global death toll would be magnitudes higher."

Not according to Dr. Birx:

Dr. Deborah Birx, a former member of the White House coronavirus response team, said thousands of Americans died preventable COVID-19 deaths and that everything after the initial surge could've been mitigated. Birx was speaking during an interview with CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta for the network's upcoming coronavirus documentary that airs Sunday. A clip of Birx's comments was shared on Saturday. "I look at it this way: The first time we have an excuse. There were about 100,000 deaths that came from that original surge," said Birx, who served under the Trump administration. "All of the rest of them, in my mind, could have been mitigated or decreased substantially."
Trump made masks, then science, then vaccines, political. According to Birx, a half-million are dead because of Donald Trump.

#129 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-25 11:56 PM | Reply

And after they found them from 1000's of miles away or in other countries

Way to avoid the question.

Probably because you don't have the answer and your simpleton mind can't think past a geographic similarity.

Here's a hint: I asked the question because some horseshoe bat ranges overlap with the location of Wuhan.

and you see no connection whatsoever to that and that covid just happened to erupt in Wuhan.

Nope. Because I'm not a moron and require actual evidence to make a firm decision.

The wife thing only solidifies the fact you're a genuine piece of ----.

#130 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-26 12:00 AM | Reply

If not for Trump and Warp Speed, the global death toll would be magnitudes higher.

LOL what a moron this orange ---------- is.

Biden's record is much worse than Trump's so saying he is the worse possible leader is pretty disingenuous when we have a example of you 'competent leader' delivering the current results.

#127 | Posted by Skeptical

Because people like you are a millstone around our collective necks.

If we observed Spartan traditions pieces of ---- like you would have been left on a hillside to die as an infant.

I suspect that you know this and that's why you loathe the society that basically patronizes you by allowing you to exist.

#131 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-26 12:02 AM | Reply

"Trump made masks, then science, then vaccines, political. According to Birx, a half-million are dead because of Donald Trump.
#129 | POSTED BY "SQUIRTS" DANFROTH, GED"

Let's use your math Squirts. Under Trump, 430k deaths minus the 100k above from Brix = 330k 'excess' deaths under Trump. That is the body count that Biden has racked up to date - so I assume you are outraged at him.

But more importantly, her statements are guesses at best and fly in the face of the fact that EVERY country had a winter surge. So, singling our Trump is disingenuous.

#132 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-26 12:07 AM | Reply

#132 Canada has 1/5th the deaths that the US has and is the most comparable country based on travel, health system, life style.
The difference is how mitigation and vaccination was managed. Canada did not have domestic testing, masks or vaccine production, so it started those behind the US. Trumps management of the Covid crisis was spectacularly bad. He fumbled testing, enriched his cronies at the expense of lives by diverting supplies. His politicization of mitigation and vaccines is still having the Herman Cain effect in the US.

Trump is responsible for 80% of US Covid deaths. He is a mass murderer. He killed more Americans than the Nazis in WWII.

#133 | Posted by bored at 2021-10-26 12:47 AM | Reply

"#132 Canada has 1/5th the deaths that the US has and is the most comparable country based on travel, health system, life style.
#133 | POSTED BY BORED "

Canada is a good comparison point. Under Trump, the covid death/1M pop was 2.5x higher than Canada. Under Biden, the covid deaths/1M pop is 3.5x that of Canada.

So, 2 important things:
1.) US rates will be higher than Canada's regardless due to the difference in obesity rates - the US is 43% while Canada is 26% and obese people are 6x more likely to die from covid
2.) Biden has performed much worse than Trump when comparing the deaths under his admin to Canada.

So, I think it is about time you start to demonize Biden and give Trump the thanks he deserves.

#134 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-26 01:15 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Sometimes, ---- Just Happens,no point in blaming people now. We are where we are."

It's all water under the bridge, huh? Just like Trump's crimes? You can't have it both ways.

#135 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-10-26 09:16 AM | Reply

"2.) Biden has performed much worse than Trump when comparing the deaths under his admin to Canada."

You just said that's only because of fat people.
What would you have Biden do about that?

Let's say it's also because of GOP policies in GOP states.
What would you have Biden do about that?

If there's no Biden policy you would change, then you're trying to pillory Biden for doing exactly what you want him to do.

#136 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-26 09:24 AM | Reply

Your own linked source explicitly states that IT NEVER HAPPENED.
#128 | POSTED BY SKEPTICAL

LOL

"The NCMI report was made available widely to people authorized to access intelligence community alerts. Following the report's release, other intelligence community bulletins began circulating through confidential channels across the government around Thanksgiving, the sources said. Those analyses said China's leadership knew the epidemic was out of control even as it kept such crucial information from foreign governments and public health agencies."

Here is the actual "Denial" from Trump's Defense Secretary. He doesn't deny it at all!

Asked about the November warning last Sunday on ABC's "This Week," Defense Secretary Mark Esper told Chief Anchor George Stephanopoulos, "I can't recall, George."

#137 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-26 09:33 AM | Reply

"You just said that's only because of fat people."

We are comparing Biden vs. Trump the US% of fat people didn't change Jan 20th. The fat comparison is only relative when comparing to other countries.

"What would you have Biden do about that?"

Enact better policies so his performance is at least equal to Trump's.

"Let's say it's also because of GOP policies in GOP states."

And Trump's were bad because of the NYC death factories under Cuomo.

"If there's no Biden policy you would change, then you're trying to pillory Biden for doing exactly what you want him to do.
#136 | POSTED BY SNOOFY "

I want him to enact policies to stop importing Biden-covid variants.

#138 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-26 11:07 AM | Reply

"Asked about the November warning last Sunday on ABC's "This Week," Defense Secretary Mark Esper told Chief Anchor George Stephanopoulos, "I can't recall, George."
#137 | POSTED BY SNOOFY"

I linked to the official Pentagon statement in my original response - the said that the documents flat out DID NOT EXIST. So, your unnamed sources are lying and the Pentagon called -------- on them.

#139 | Posted by Skeptical at 2021-10-26 11:08 AM | Reply

Enact better policies so his performance is at least equal to Trump's.

Right the problem was the policies, not the -------- who wouldn't follow anything policy or guidelines no matter what.

Sure thing.

Idiot.

#140 | Posted by jpw at 2021-10-26 11:10 AM | Reply

" importing Biden-covid variants."

Tell us you don't understand how viruses mutate without telling us you don't understand how viruses mutate.

#141 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-10-26 12:14 PM | Reply

"I linked to the official Pentagon statement in my original response"

I linked to the Secretary of Defense.
He says he couldn't remember.
Do you believe him... checks username... "Skeptical?"

#142 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-26 06:57 PM | Reply

"I want him to enact policies to stop importing Biden-covid variants."

That's not a policy, that's a goal, and a deliberately ridiculous one at that.
For it to be a policy, you need to specify what actions would hopefully achieve the outcome you want.
You can't do that.

#143 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-10-26 06:59 PM | Reply

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