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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, November 23, 2021

A sentence uttered by a defense attorney in the trial of those accused in the killing of Ahmaud Arbery brought an audible gasp from people in the courtroom Monday -- and elicited outrage from his family and legal experts.

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He just got his clients convicted. Also possible grounds for a mistrial or reversal on appeal.

Strategy?

#1 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-11-23 11:16 AM | Reply

All they need is one racist to get a hung jury.

#2 | Posted by censored at 2021-11-23 11:52 AM | Reply

I hate it when criminal defense attorneys engage in unclassy behavior. All defendants deserve better than that.

#3 | Posted by moder8 at 2021-11-23 11:55 AM | Reply

The defense lawyers in this case should hook up with the prosecution in the Rittenhouse case. They have a lot in common.

#4 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-11-23 12:01 PM | Reply

Says the Nazi

#5 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2021-11-23 01:37 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

most racist thing I've heard in quite some time.

I guess GOP filth hires GOP filth, to defend, you guessed it,
GOP filth...

(sorry, sort of fell into a reiterative redundancy there)

Sort of like saying, "Mean Bastard",
or saying "Republican".

#6 | Posted by earthmuse at 2021-11-23 01:46 PM | Reply

The toenail remark was despicable, kinda weird and completely out of liine, and a downright stupid thing for the defense attorney to say. but I don't see it as racist. Why would you consider it racist?

#7 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-11-23 08:20 PM | Reply

I feel like Boaz can tell us if it's racist or not, to say that about a black woman.

#8 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-11-23 08:24 PM | Reply

Why would you consider it racist?

It dehumanizes Arbery:
Just an animal.
Uncivilized. Just like all the slave animals that worked plantations.
Not even any socks to cover his long, dirty toenails.

It reinforces that White is better:
Just look at this animal with uncut toenails.
Dirty. Long. Toenails.
That animal doesn't even wear socks.
Well he's black. What do you expect?

Do you get it yet?

#9 | Posted by YAV at 2021-11-23 09:21 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Dirty feet?

Good Gracious!

Dirty racists?

Vote Republican!

#10 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-11-23 09:36 PM | Reply

Nope ... ..you only draw that sort of inferences if you are racist yourself. Yes it's insulting, yes it's dehumanizing, but it's completely nonspecific to race. We all have toenails, lots of people don't wear socks and ive seen far more white people with dirty toenails, particularly southern white women who have a propensity to wear flip flops all year round.

#11 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-11-23 09:37 PM | Reply

I'm not sure it's fascist but race was certainly a factor in the shooting.

What do y'all think about this?
Seems like some some very aggressive statements being made with the gear to back it up.

nypost.com

I wonder how many are locals??

#12 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-11-23 09:41 PM | Reply

Nope ... ..you only draw that sort of inferences if you are racist yourself.

I live in the South. I grew up here. There isn't any doubt what was meant.
His mother gasped. She left the Courtroom.
Others in the courtroom gasped.
You asked I told you.
I can't help you be any more intelligent or insightful than you are.

You don't have to be a racist to see racism.
Did you think that was somehow clever or insightful?
That's about as stupid a thing as I can imagine anyone saying.

#13 | Posted by YAV at 2021-11-23 09:47 PM | Reply

NYpost isn't allowed here because it's garbage.

#14 | Posted by YAV at 2021-11-23 09:48 PM | Reply

A land shark using land shark tactics. I'm shocked I tell ya.

#15 | Posted by willowby at 2021-11-23 09:58 PM | Reply

"Yes it's insulting, yes it's dehumanizing, but it's completely nonspecific to race."

The people in the courtroom didn't seem to think so.

Are you telling the people who gasped that they're wrong?

Is that what's happening here? They're seeing racism where none exists, according to you.

#16 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-11-23 10:02 PM | Reply

Turning Ahmaud Arbery into a victim
After the choices that he made
Does not reflect the reality
Of what brought Ahmaud Arbery To Satilla Shores
In his Khaki shorts
With no socks
To cover his long, dirty toenails.

#17 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-11-23 10:06 PM | Reply

^
I'm not one for poetry but that might as well be Maya Angelou.

#18 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-11-23 10:07 PM | Reply

There you go assigning a position to me. I didn't say they were wrong.I said YOU are wrong. The people in the courtroom gasped. So did I. Because it was shockingly offensive to be speaking of the victim in that manner. Unbelievably disrespectful, especially in the context, which was part of remarks about his family and upbringing.

The mother is a class act and handled herself admirably. She commented that she thought it was "beyond rude", and dehumanizing. She didn't say racist, You did. Is she wrong?

#19 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-11-23 10:17 PM | Reply

Right.

Turning Arbery into a runaway slave trope for no reason at all wasn't racist.

Idiot.

#20 | Posted by YAV at 2021-11-23 10:40 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Only the ignorant wouldn't call it racist

#21 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2021-11-23 10:45 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Let's review:
"We don't want any more Black pastors here"
Defense compared the presence of those Black pastors to the KKK and "public lynchings." Yeah.
The defense complained that the overwhelmingly white jury still didn't have enough bubbas and Joe six-packs.
The defense attorneys called for a mistrial because Ahmaud Arbery's mother cried in court.
That's just too human.

This entire trial has, from the beginning, from the defense side, been a -------- of racism.

#22 | Posted by YAV at 2021-11-23 10:46 PM | Reply

It's a long stretch to go from long dirty toenails to runaway slaves ... ... but you do you. As a matter of fact google "long dirty toenails" all you will see is a bunch of white feet ... ... no pics of runaway slaves, so apparently it's not a trope or even "a thing" until people like you decided to make it one.

#23 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-11-23 10:49 PM | Reply

#19 | POSTED BY MIRANDA7

^
Here's what's up:
You'll say anything but it was racist.

#24 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-11-23 11:02 PM | Reply

Based on this discussion (I haven't been following this trial) focusing on his toenails seems strange and offensive. I don't know that it's racist, but certainly seems petty.

Having said that, I do know that demand for racism always vastly outpaces supply in this country so any time a lefty screams "racism" my skepticism radar goes on alert.

To whatever extent this toenail thing is racist, is it more racist than calling Larry Elder "the black face of white supremacy" or calling Senator Scott "Uncle Tim?"

#25 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-11-23 11:09 PM | Reply

As a matter of fact google "long dirty toenails" all you will see is a bunch of white feet

Well that settles it. Thread over.

#26 | Posted by REDIAL at 2021-11-23 11:10 PM | Reply

#25 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

^
Another one who won't say it's racist.

#27 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-11-23 11:10 PM | Reply

Implied racist with deniability. The audience for which it was intended, possible racists on the jury, knew exactly what was meant and being said.

It wasn't even subtle, anybody who knows the south at all could read his meaning instantly.

Only people unfamiliar with the region would mistake his meaning. To the jury it was clear.

#28 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-11-23 11:11 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Just so ya know, there are three defendants, with separate counsel All the remarks you attributed above were from the clearly racist Mr. Gough, who represents "Roddy"., and the other attorneys spoke up opposing his remarks. The woman who made the toenail remark represents "Greg", and though she may have been offensive, and a complete idiot, ,I don't think her remarks were racist, the comparisons to runaway slaves are being raised by mostly white male journalists. I think it is disingenuous and destructive.

#29 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-11-23 11:13 PM | Reply

#27 It's because I don't care.

Fact is these 2 guys shot and killed a man who posed no physical threat to them. Unless the prosecution totally soils the bed these 2 will be convicted. That's what matters - a fair trial with justice being meted out.

#30 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-11-23 11:16 PM | Reply

"the comparisons to runaway slaves are being raised by mostly white male journalists."

So the journalists are wrong, and the way you can tell is they're mostly white?

Do you realize just how bad that sounds?

#31 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-11-23 11:17 PM | Reply

"#27 It's because I don't care."

--------.

You cared enough to invite us to play "Which Is More Racist, Uncle Tom or Aunt Jemima?"

You can't be saved.

#32 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-11-23 11:20 PM | Reply

Dirty unwashed people in the South are associated with ni**ers and-----------. Either one is almost equally bad as far as character assassination goes to well off southerners.

This was racist in context but if Arbery had been white it would also have been prejudicial.

So there is some deniability about race, but not really if you know the underlying mores and beliefs of the south.

#33 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-11-23 11:20 PM | Reply

who posed no physical threat to them.

Does that matter if they was a'skeered of him?

#34 | Posted by REDIAL at 2021-11-23 11:21 PM | Reply

Down there? You betcha.

#35 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-11-23 11:22 PM | Reply

"So there is some deniability about race,"

That's a good way of putting it.

Plausible Deniability is an enduring right-wing legacy from the Reagan Revolution.

In hindsight, it shouldn't surprise us at all that Trump sided with Putin.

Reagan sided with the Ayatollah.

#36 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-11-23 11:23 PM | Reply

I've already been saved. Just pointing out lefty hypocrisy when it comes to allegations of racism.

#37 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-11-23 11:24 PM | Reply

#34 - No. Unless they can make a plausible case that they felt they were in danger - they were the ones chasing - I don't see how this case doesn't end in conviction.

#38 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-11-23 11:25 PM | Reply

"Just pointing out lefty hypocrisy when it comes to allegations of racism."

What happened to, "#27 It's because I don't care."

Now you're a man on a mission. Pointing out that Liberal Hypocrisy.

Like I said, there's no hope for you.

#39 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-11-23 11:25 PM | Reply

Effete ... ..can you show me something somewhere (from before yesterday) that makes a clear connection between dirty long toenails and slaves? Cause I just ain't seeing the connection. Clearly you didn't even watch the video, you say nobody could mistake HIS meaning? The lawyer is a woman.

#40 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-11-23 11:25 PM | Reply

Carter sided with Arafat.

Obama sided with the mullahs, as does Biden.

#41 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-11-23 11:25 PM | Reply

Biden's love for Putin and Xi make Trump blush.

#42 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-11-23 11:27 PM | Reply

#39 There's always hope. You just don't like your nose being rubbed in your own dung.

#43 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-11-23 11:28 PM | Reply

they were the ones chasing

So was Zimmerman.

#44 | Posted by REDIAL at 2021-11-23 11:30 PM | Reply

------------- is the racist ----- who cheered enthusiastically as Governor Snyder deliberately poisoned the residents of Flint.

#45 | Posted by Reinheitsgebot at 2021-11-23 11:34 PM | Reply

You just don't like your nose being rubbed in your own dung.
#43 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

Congratulations on finding another thing that differentiates us!

#46 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-11-23 11:36 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

I didn't have to see it. As soon as I heard the comment, it was obvious to me what it was. I have seen this kind of crap up close. It wasn't remotely subtle or ambiguous if you know the code. Which you obviously don't.

Get a clue about southern culture. Unwashed is criminal and unworthy of respect. The racism was implied but clear to the audience. If Arbery was white the image would have been negative but less so. It's really a regional thing;Like a cultural dialect.

#47 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-11-23 11:37 PM | Reply

"The audience for which it was intended, possible racists on the jury, knew exactly what was meant and being said. "

If there is a legit racist on the jury the why would they need the dirty toenail reference?

Their vote is already determined.

So why would the defense do this?

#48 | Posted by eberly at 2021-11-23 11:40 PM | Reply

Black people being dirty is, in fact, a stereotype.

I can't believe that needs to be explained, but conservatives always seem to find new depths to which their willful ignorance will plunge.

#49 | Posted by JOE at 2021-11-23 11:41 PM | Reply

BTW, that post was directed at Miranda.

#50 | Posted by JOE at 2021-11-23 11:42 PM | Reply

they were the ones chasing

So was Zimmerman.

#44 | POSTED BY REDIAL AT 2021-11-23 11:30 PM

True. But Zimmerman ended up on the wrong side of a MMA beatdown. I also said Arbery never posed a physical threat to them. Can't say the same about Martin.

#51 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-11-23 11:44 PM | Reply

REINHEITSGEBOT tortured small animals as a child and now has a restraining order issued by Chuck E Cheese.

#52 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-11-23 11:46 PM | Reply

#49 ------------- isn't a black stereotype.

#53 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-11-23 11:46 PM | Reply

How old are you?

#54 | Posted by JOE at 2021-11-23 11:47 PM | Reply

Probably older than you but certainly less mature.

#55 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-11-23 11:48 PM | Reply

Their vote is not necessarily gauranteed. The toenail business was to gross them out and give them permission internally to refuse to convict, "fine white fellas",for killing a dangerous and dirty ni**er. It was obvious and disgusting.

It made the victim seem like a perp, by design.

#56 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-11-23 11:48 PM | Reply

I imagine when we have this cast of characters ...

1. White defendant
2. Black victim
3. White defense attorney

Any attempt to smear the victim is ... ... ... .racist?

95% of the time?

#57 | Posted by eberly at 2021-11-23 11:52 PM | Reply

I also said Arbery never posed a physical threat to them.

How close was he when they shot him?

#58 | Posted by REDIAL at 2021-11-23 11:56 PM | Reply

It was the racist version of "she was dressed like a ----, she was asking for it." Don't be so freaking dense.

#59 | Posted by bocaink at 2021-11-23 11:58 PM | Reply

Low hanging fruit. Lowest common denominator.

Easy to grasp if you just don't over think it.

Did it shock you? It was meant to give an impression of the defendent. You are not the intended audience. They knew what was being said. To outsiders it just seemed weird and incongruous. But it was anything but in the context of that jury.

#60 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-11-23 11:58 PM | Reply

They know it's racist. They just refuse to acknowledge it is all

#61 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2021-11-24 12:00 AM | Reply

I can't wait for the defense to go off on his belly-button lint.

#62 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-11-24 12:07 AM | Reply

62

Laura's?

They'd need a ------- wheelbarrow for all of that trapped in that bottomless hole

#63 | Posted by eberly at 2021-11-24 12:20 AM | Reply

My hundred pounds weight loss took care of that Eberly..

#64 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2021-11-24 12:27 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Effete, not sure where you are from, but I lived in Brunswick for several years and still live close enough to smell it when the wind is right. If you've ever been there you will know what that means. You lost credibility when you admitted you didn't even watch the video. Context matters.

And I disagree, dirty" is not a Black stereotype.

#65 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-11-24 12:30 AM | Reply

I disagree, dirty" is not a Black stereotype.

Then you're a ------- idiot. Thanks for clarifying.

#66 | Posted by JOE at 2021-11-24 12:33 AM | Reply

I went back and watched the video, It didn't change my opinion one iota. In fact, in context with a blonde white woman saying so deliberately and enunciating everything so precisely, it came across as rather more racist than my imaginings.

You have a problem dude.

#67 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-11-24 12:46 AM | Reply

I have dirty fingernails. I'm not black. Apparently, I'm a savage.

#68 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-11-24 12:48 AM | Reply

It's just a visual image she used to elicit a disgust response in the jury. You're overthinking it. It's primitive, and probably will be effective for being so.

You just don't want to see what you don't want to see. Why?

#69 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-11-24 12:52 AM | Reply

You just don't want to see what you don't want to see. Why?

#69 | POSTED BY EFFETEPOSER AT 2021-11-24 12:52 AM | REPLY

It doesn't mean it's racist, and more than likely it backfired, but at this point she is clutching for straws.

I don't know why you think you're an expert on Southern culture but watching The View every day isn't working.

#70 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-11-24 01:06 AM | Reply

I never said I'm an expert. My views are my own. I could be wrong but so could you. The dog whistle was singing loud and clear to me and obviously many others here. If we heard it why don't you think the jury did? I'm guessing you are pretending. "Oh the outrage, such a foolish assumption",why go into something so irrelevant to anything about the crime? To bias the jury in favor of acquital. Was it explicitly racist?not entirely, but the dog whistle was singing, no question.

#71 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-11-24 01:22 AM | Reply

Well, in this day and age - dog whistle crap tends to backfire.

#72 | Posted by BellRinger at 2021-11-24 01:24 AM | Reply

#69 Why? Because the exaggeration and misrepresentation of racism is not only dangerous to society, but it is personal to me. I find it ironic that nearly everyone here who accuses me of racism is a white male with no actual personal experience of racism to speak from, who has no idea of my background, gender or race

I grew up with one parent who made a concerted effort to convince me from an early age that everything bad that happened to me and my siblings was because of racism. I was oppressed and could never hope to achieve my goals and dreams.

I had another parent who worked very hard to reverse that indoctrination and convince me that i was the Captain of my own ship, and my future was far more dependent on my choices and actions than the color of my skin.

Now I work to teach my children to embrace the latter mentality, an effort stymied by the woke culture of the last 2 years, bombarding them with messaging that encourages the former mentality, which in turn discourages hope and personal responsibility.

Of course racism exists, but it is not"worse than ever" the woke mob and the race hustlers would have you believe. Anyone who has been on this earth for more than a few decades has seen race relations steadily improve. The media is using disinformation and exaggeration to try to cause a full scale race war, for clicks. It's working

#73 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-11-24 03:56 AM | Reply

So why would the defense do this?
#48 | POSTED BY EBERLY

To dehumanize the disgusting filthy animal... oops I mean person, the defendant is accused of murdering.

Basically, it puts the victim on trial.

#74 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-11-24 09:15 AM | Reply

"Of course racism exists, but it is not"worse than ever" the woke mob and the race hustlers would have you believe."

Is it better than it's ever been, then?

Or are maybe some things getting worse since we passed Civil Rights, like wealth if black households?

Who said it's "worse than ever" can I get that race hustler's name please?

"Anyone who has been on this earth for more than a few decades has seen race relations steadily improve."

Can I see these numbers on race relations, to see the steady improvement you claim?

#75 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-11-24 09:19 AM | Reply

So you work really, really hard at never seeing racism to spite your one parent?
It all makes sense now.
As does the mischaracterization of and derision towards "woke" culture.
I bet you hate CRT, too, but can't actually tell anyone what it honestly is.

#76 | Posted by YAV at 2021-11-24 09:26 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#76 for #73.

#77 | Posted by YAV at 2021-11-24 09:26 AM | Reply

#75 -
Can I see these numbers on race relations, to see the steady improvement you claim?

That'll be good for a laugh. I can't wait:
news.gallup.com

#78 | Posted by YAV at 2021-11-24 09:28 AM | Reply

"So you work really, really hard at never seeing racism to spite your one parent?"

The drunk one saw racism everywhere... I don't want to end up a mean old drunk. I deserved better from a parent! So I'll foster hostility towards everything they stood for, and mold that personal resentment into a prominent feature in my world view.

Pretty standard child psychology right there.

#79 | Posted by snoofy at 2021-11-24 09:36 AM | Reply

Miranda,
It looks like Snoofy and Yav have proved your point...the woke crowd and media have brainwashed them to see racism everywhere and anyone who doesn't is obviously a racist...that means you. And of course me too.

#80 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-11-24 11:05 AM | Reply

If they're aquitted was That racism, or justice on the merits? I really want to know as the deliberations drag on its looking increasingly likely they may in fact be acquitted.

The more things change,the more they stay the same.

#81 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2021-11-24 11:25 AM | Reply

#81 | POSTED BY EFFETEPOSER AT 2021-11-24 11:25 AM | REPLY

I don't know what's in the mind of the jury or what they're discussing, but as I said earlier race definitely was a factor in the shooting.

I really don't see them coming back with an acquittal...possibly Mr Bryan only being convicted of lesser charges.

I expect the jury will come back with a verdict today. We will see.

#82 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-11-24 11:42 AM | Reply

It looks like Snoofy and Yav have proved your point...the woke crowd and media have brainwashed them to see racism everywhere and anyone who doesn't is obviously a racist...that means you. And of course me too.

You're an idiot. It's blatant and I would have seen this a decade ago just as clear as I do today. You and this use of "woke" in a derogatory way shows what a low-life right-wing gullible moron you are. Maybe someday you'll be able to show an ounce of empathy for someone else that doesn't look like you.

#83 | Posted by YAV at 2021-11-24 01:31 PM | Reply

The verdict has been reached. There's a thread on it.

#84 | Posted by YAV at 2021-11-24 01:31 PM | Reply

Guilty.

#85 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2021-11-24 01:38 PM | Reply

Well there it is.

#86 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-11-24 01:44 PM | Reply

"It was the racist version of "she was dressed like a ----, she was asking for it."

So just like the people chasing after Rittenhouse then.

#87 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-11-24 01:47 PM | Reply

In my opinion.

Dirty = poor.

But, it seems black = poor, which is dirty.

(I'm not sure why, poor white people are as plentiful as poor black people.)

Regardless. Asinine statement.

Just by looking at pictures of the defendants, I assume they're poor too.

Did anyone examine their toes?

#88 | Posted by ClownShack at 2021-11-24 01:47 PM | Reply

Jakesters?

#89 | Posted by CharlieP at 2021-11-24 01:52 PM | Reply

83 | POSTED BY YAV AT 2021-11-24 01:31 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

And thanks for proving Miranda's point once again. Anyone who disagrees with you is the enemy and to be attacked. It shows your true ignorance since you know nothing about me or my personal relationships.

Referencing this case I said from the beginning these guys were guilty and going down for the crime...if I had no empathy for people who don't look like me why would I say Arbery was murdered instead of supporting the 3 old white men.

#90 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-11-24 01:54 PM | Reply

And thanks for proving Miranda's point once again. Anyone who disagrees with you is the enemy and to be attacked. It shows your true ignorance since you know nothing about me or my personal relationships.

I know what you post here. I know where you side. I know you made a stupid attack against me. I know you use right-wing nonsense like "woke" and such.

I don't need to know much more about you, nor do I care to.

Now go f**k yourself with a nice piece of barbed wire, will you?
Thanks!

#91 | Posted by YAV at 2021-11-24 01:59 PM | Reply

"I don't need to know much more about you, nor do I care to."

Exactly, you just keep making the point over and over...we get it.

You're just as brainwashed and full of hate as any Trumper...kinda like the 3 who were just convicted today. There hatred was their downfall, so wise up.

#92 | Posted by ScottE at 2021-11-24 04:38 PM | Reply

"There hatred was their downfall, so wise up."

Oops.

#93 | Posted by sentinel at 2021-11-24 05:10 PM | Reply

Oops.

#94 | Posted by YAV at 2021-11-24 07:08 PM | Reply

The usual suspects, expending all of their energy trying to parse the hateful statements of racists. You can pick any damn words apart if you're not looking for the truth. Empathy means putting yourself into the shoes of the oppressed and seeing the world through their eyes. But instead the parsers always manage to explain that there are different ways of looking at hateful words.

#95 | Posted by cbob at 2021-11-24 10:22 PM | Reply

#78 Yav, your link was interesting, and proved my point. This was polling date, most of the questions were generically asking about peoples PERCEPTIONS of race relations in society, not their personal experiences with it. The social media and mainstream media's hyper focus on race issues over recent years has created a mountain of misperceptions and false narratives that feeds these perceptions. When you ask people ab out their actual experiences you get different answers.

Yav, how old are you? Do you remember the 70's, the 60's? Can you say with a straight face that race relations have WORSENED since then? My liberal daughter believes they have, because twitter told her that. The statistics you provide show that PERCEPTIONS of race relations steadily improved from the 60's to the 00's, after which time the numbers started reversing. It is no coincidence that coincides with the rise of social media. Before social media, our PERCEPTIONS were fairly closely tied with REALITY as they were based on our personal experiences and those shared with us by trusted friends and family. Since social media, our PERCEPTIONS have skewed far from REALITY, becoming more and more based on the shared experiences of complete strangers. We are bombarded with "stories" bouncing around in echo chambers which are deliberately curated to generate clicks and outrage. The pandemic isolated us and made it worse.

I watched a cousin go through a twitter arc over a period of months surrounding the BLM protests and lock downs. Gradually his posts changed from those of a liberal, intellectually stimulating, politically active guy, to a morose, cynical ADOS taglined guy consumed with race related anger, reparations and systemic racism. Gradually as restrictions lifted he regained his balance and returned to his old self. When we caught up in person I asked him about it. He said the pandemic caused him to live inside the virtual world instead of the real world. It was easy to get drawn into believing everything his "friends" and followers" had to say, and connecting with new friends who gave him a sense of purpose to "fight".

Then one day he left the house for an entire day to catch up on many postponed errands, bringing him into contact with a diverse set of REAL LIVE people, for the first time in months. He realized he was looking at each white person like a dog who was getting ready to bite him, and it almost surprised him when store clerks and others were actually nice to him after all the racial negativity in his virtual universe. When he got home and reflected on the day, he realized how far from reality his perceptions had strayed and decided he needed to get out more.

Im frequently accused of covering for, making excuses and minimizing racism. I'm not. Its real. We have come far but not far enough. I do believe that the only way to make things better is with TRUTH and understanding. The rampant exxaggerations and misrepresentations about racism in the media and social media don't serve to change minds and hearts, they only divide us further. The true racists will not respond to false allegations and only dig in deeper. White allies in the middle feel targeted and lose trust in the messaging. Black moderates get their voices stifled by race hustlers who don't truly represent them. The Black victim culture buys into it, feeds on it and wallows in misplaced anger.

I've seen this in my own very multi family, and I'm sure tommorrow's dinner will be as interesting as ever. We strive to focus on conversations on the the things we agree on, and find common ground. When it starts going off the rails, the Enforcer (my 6'5" uncle) steers it back. It is a shame Twitter doesn't have an Uncle like that.

#96 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-11-24 11:17 PM | Reply

" ... how old are you? Do you remember the 70's, the 60's? Can you say with a straight face that race relations have WORSENED since then?"

They haven't, no.

But the economic equations, from redlining to wage discrimination to inheritance laws, multiplied by generations, have exacerbated the differences.

Can you deny this with a straight face?

#97 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-11-24 11:25 PM | Reply

Dan, The conversation was about race relations, so glad to hear you are in agreement with me.
As for economic equations, I agree that the effects of redlining, historical wage discrimination, Jim Crow laws and yes, even slavery have carried forward through generations and therefore still impact today's landscape. Certainly Black families would be better off economically economics would be in better shape if not for those factors. BUT those conditions have also improved dramatically over the last few decades (with exceptions) and I would be inclined to believe there is a net overall improvement in Black family economics over that same time period relative to a similar index for non-Black famillies. I don't know what the stats show, however. Yav (and my daughter) seem to believe that everything is worse than ever.

The exception I would make is redlining, land taking and neighborhood splitting. Many Black families who still own older homes impacted by those actions have seen declining equity values as a direct result. This is also obscured by a broader problem of declining equity for homeowners in lower income neighborhoods, mostly due to crime and middle class flight. Relocating overpasses and reunifying neighborhoods may result in gentrification of these neighborhoods and help reverse these trends, but that isn't necessarily a good thing either. Gentrification wipes out affordable housing, forcing out struggling residents. It is a complex problem that "anti-racism" can't solve.

#98 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-11-25 12:14 AM | Reply

" BUT those conditions have also improved dramatically over the last few decades "

In the micro, yes.

Meanwhile, in the macro, the chasm deepens. If the average minority family's net worth doubles, great. But if it doubles while the average white family's worth quintuples, is that progress?

#99 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-11-25 12:47 AM | Reply

No, and. You are right. I did more research and the wealth gap between Black. And white is indeed widening, not narrowing as should be expected considering progress. Some of that is due to the historical factors noted,and inherited wealth. Some of it is also due to modern lifestyle factors and individual choices in financial management. Black family's traditionally shun the stock market and voluntary investment vehicles such as IRA.s, with many storing savings in low interest bearing savings accounts or worse yet, entrepreneurial startups. Black families also spend a higher proportion of their income ( as compared to white families) on "conspicuous consumption" such as expensive vehicles, jewelry, clothing and restaurants, and lesson positive ROI categories like home ownership, education and health care. That adds up over lifetimes and generations. Not suggesting this is the on,y reason for the difference, but the factors an individual can control are certainly a good place to start.

#100 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-11-25 01:35 AM | Reply

Most of my career was in public service, so I knew my coworkers salaries, which were mostly the same as mine. It was interesting to see how they spent their money. Some preferred to put it into their nest, building equity and staying home. Others vacationed frequently and kept a more modest home base. Some had stay at home wives or put their kids in private schools and sacrificed luxuries to afford that. The ones who always had new cars, boats and other depreciable assets could never seem to keep up with their bills, but they had a lot of fun on weekends. Another coworker spent nearly everything he had on his menagerie of animals. Another ate every single meal in restaurants, didn't even own pots and pans. The smokers ... .They had ------ houses and cars. Tobacco kills dreams. I was pretty thrifty. Me and spouse packed lunches for work and shared 1 car for 15 years. Saved enough to payofv our mortgage and keep trading up to acquire some nice real estate and pay cash for college, but didn't have much fun. I don't judge any of them for their choices. To each his own, but net worth is directly tied to these decisions, and many of them are directly tied to cultural norms and expectations.

#101 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-11-25 01:53 AM | Reply

And marriage ... ..marriage builds wealth. Single parenthood and child support are not conducive to wealth building. I know lots of cops who can't stay married, some divorced 5 or 6 times. They usually end up living in Trailer parks trading lot rent for security.

#102 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-11-25 02:00 AM | Reply

The kind of crap you hear from white lawyers when they got nothing.

#103 | Posted by fresno500 at 2021-11-25 02:16 AM | Reply

#100 Interesting how you admit Danforth is correct, but then still go out of your way to scrounge up some highly stereotypical reason to blame blacks anyway.

You're like a more articulate version of Boaz.

#104 | Posted by JOE at 2021-11-25 05:57 AM | Reply

Have you got something interesting to say or do you just go out of your way to troll? It's a complex issue, which I acknowledged. There are many reasons and we agreed on about 6 and then I talked about one more (personal finances) that is within the control of the individual. That is the ONE reason of all of them that is solvable with education and awareness, but to you, bringing it up makes it " blaming" and stereotyping? .Ignoring facts because they are uncomfortable does not make society better.

As fior Boaz, he is the kind of guy who believes in personal responsibility and isn't waiting for the Liberal White Saviors to take the blame and save all his problems. I doubt he would consider himself oppressed. You have, a problem with that kind of uppitiness I suppose.

#105 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2021-11-25 06:27 AM | Reply

That wan't a troll, at least I didn't take Joe's comment that way. It was an accurate distillation of your post, stripping away all the rationalization.

#106 | Posted by YAV at 2021-11-25 10:44 AM | Reply

"Black family's traditionally shun the stock market and voluntary investment vehicles such as IRA.s"

After histories of blatant racism by banks like redlining, do you blame them?

"...of all of them that is solvable with education and awareness,"

Not when the equation is against you, and every time your net doubles, everyone else's quintuples. For example, my house has more than doubled in value since the bride and I bought it. Meanwhile, houses on "the other side of the tracks" might've gone up 20% during that same time. Might've.

#107 | Posted by Danforth at 2021-11-25 11:30 AM | Reply

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