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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Thursday, May 12, 2022

The draft opinion, written by Justice Samuel Alito, is steeped in language that paints fetuses - no matter what stage of development - as people. The connection between fetal personhood and prosecutions of pregnant people is well-established. Self-induced abortions and miscarriages - which occur in one in four pregnancies - can look identical.

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Between 1973 and 2005, National Advocates for Pregnant Women identified 413 cases in which a person was punished for allegedly harming the health of their fetus, including self-inducing an abortion. But in the last 15 years, the organization identified 1,254 cases - and that's almost certainly an undercount. The majority of cases involve low income women and women of color: According to NAPW's pre-2005 data, 71 percent of the women couldn't afford lawyers and, of the 368 women for whom information on race was available, 59 percent were women of color.

[C]onsider El Salvador, where abortion is completely banned. More than 140 people, mostly impoverished women living in rural regions, have been incarcerated for illegal abortions - many of whom insist they merely miscarried. In Poland, where a court last year imposed a country-wide, near-total ban on abortion, a new bill proposes requiring doctors to report all pregnancies and miscarriages to a registry controlled and monitored by the government, raising fears it will heighten scrutiny of and prosecutions over pregnancies that don't end in birth.

If you think that can't happen in the United States, consider this: In 2019, during a hearing as part of an investigation that threatened to close Missouri's lone abortion clinic, the head of the state's department of health testified the office had created a spreadsheet tracking Planned Parenthood abortion patients' menstrual periods using state medical records. The purpose: To investigate "failed" abortions - people who had gone in for an abortion but were still pregnant and not getting their period - in an attempt to prove that abortion complications are common (they aren't). And since the leaked Supreme Court draft, Louisiana has taken the lead in saying what's coming next, via a bill saying people who get abortions can be charged with homicide.

"There's no medical way to tell the difference between a miscarriage and a medication abortion. And so the difference between whether someone gets reported isn't anything medical," says Rafa Kidvai, who directs the legal defense fund at the reproductive justice group If/When/How. "And that's obviously about race, about Blackness, about indigeneity, or anyone that feels suspicious."

Anti abortionists have no idea of the chaos about to be unleashed across America if Roe is overturned and Republicans move to ban abortion outright nationally. If anyone thinks the current heatwave encompassing a large swath of America is extreme, just wait and take the temperature after the SCOTUS decision is actually rendered and trigger laws ban abortion in almost 1/3 of the states.

#1 | Posted by tonyroma at 2022-05-11 07:44 PM | Reply

This is amerikkka. How do you think it will shake out?

#2 | Posted by fresno500 at 2022-05-11 09:55 PM | Reply

Can a woman claim it as a dependent before its born, then?

#3 | Posted by HeeHaw at 2022-05-11 11:49 PM | Reply

Does "fetal personhood" entitle a fetus to a Social Security number?

#4 | Posted by Twinpac at 2022-05-12 12:48 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#4 | POSTED BY TWINPAC

Aren't numbers already a felony in Florida?

#5 | Posted by IndianaJones at 2022-05-12 02:33 AM | Reply

"Math turn people into homosexual!"

-Republican Motto

#6 | Posted by ClownShack at 2022-05-12 02:38 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Math is racist"

~left whang PC road apple

#7 | Posted by phesterOBoyle at 2022-05-12 06:56 AM | Reply

Yes, miscarriages will be crimes. Miscarriages and evidence of miscarriages will be concealed. Concealment will be crimes, also.

#8 | Posted by Zed at 2022-05-12 07:52 AM | Reply

Does "fetal personhood" entitle a fetus to a Social Security number?

#4 | POSTED BY TWINPAC

A fetus will never be a person for the purpose of getting money.

#9 | Posted by Zed at 2022-05-12 07:53 AM | Reply

There are already women in jail because of a miscarriage.

www.usatoday.com

#10 | Posted by Nixon at 2022-05-12 08:17 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Oklahoma is such a s**t hole statr,

#11 | Posted by danni at 2022-05-12 09:00 AM | Reply

The only thing that is a crime is the GOP's
Puritanical 1600's viewpoint on America...

trying to roll the clock waaaaaaaaaay back.

Thankfully, most GOPers are already like 65+,
so should start dropping like flies here over
the next 15 years or so, so this will all only
be temporary (on the larger scale of things)
before any enactments are rolled back--
permanently...

#12 | Posted by earthmuse at 2022-05-12 09:07 AM | Reply

Leftists so sad they can't abort at 9 months. I've got a closet full of wire hangers I can donate to Planned Parenthood.

#13 | Posted by visitor_ at 2022-05-12 09:09 AM | Reply

Mom told you to stay out of her closet!

#14 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-05-12 09:11 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

"A woman in Oklahoma was recently convicted of manslaughter after having a miscarriage."

After taking meth, which was found in the brain and liver of the fetus. Great example. /s

#15 | Posted by sentinel at 2022-05-12 10:07 AM | Reply

Leftists so sad they can't abort at 9 months. I've got a closet full of wire hangers I can donate to Planned Parenthood.

#13 | Posted by visitor_

So you dont actually care about abortion.

How many 9 month abortions were occurring?

#16 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2022-05-12 11:15 AM | Reply

Are we bargaining? How many 9 month abortions are acceptable? Is there a point in a pregnancy where the decision to abort should require more than the pregnant person's consent?

#17 | Posted by visitor_ at 2022-05-12 12:44 PM | Reply

"How many 9 month abortions are acceptable?"

As many as are medically indicated. Which sadly is a number greater than zero

"Is there a point in a pregnancy where the decision to abort should require more than the pregnant person's consent?"

Why so vague? Who else did you have in mind, the mailman?

#18 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-05-12 12:46 PM | Reply

"Are we bargaining?"

You bargaining to take away the rights of women?

Like you morons would compromise about anything.

So sick of the lies and hate. You want to barter with the lives and rights of women? No you don't. You want to tell women what rights they should have according to you or some ancient text and when and where they can have them.

You maggots don't want to negotiate and you would never actually even ask women or involve them in any way if you didn't have to.

What the hell happened to America?

I will answer that.

Social media has divided us and we have destroyed ourselves.

You maggots made America into something but it sure ain't great.

#19 | Posted by donnerboy at 2022-05-12 01:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

After taking meth, which was found in the brain and liver of the fetus. Great example. /s

And now for the rest of the story - which anyone could have read if they bothered to hit the link:

Still, prosecutors were never able to prove that the drug had ended the pregnancy. In fact, the medical examiner testified at Poolaw's trial that he had noticed another compelling possible cause: congenital abnormalities in the developing fetus.

In January, the Oklahoma Court of Appeals dismissed manslaughter charges lodged against a woman in a similar situation to Poolaw, finding that the prosecutor could not establish that the mother's methamphetamine use was a substantial factor in her pregnancy loss - however, Comanche County has appealed. Poolaw must make a decision about whether she wants to appeal her case to the same court. If she does, and the court orders another trial, she risks being reconvicted and resentenced, potentially facing the maximum manslaughter sentence: life in prison.

So science could not prove that meth was a factor in the miscarriage, but a jury/judge is still tasked with determining a woman's guilt with her own life and freedom at stake? What gives anyone the right to judge something that happens in 1 out of 4 pregnancies?

#20 | Posted by tonyroma at 2022-05-12 01:56 PM | Reply

It's already happening:

woman sentenced to 30 years in prison for homicide after miscarriage

amp.theguardian.com

#21 | Posted by ClownShack at 2022-05-12 02:03 PM | Reply

Are we bargaining? How many 9 month abortions are acceptable? Is there a point in a pregnancy where the decision to abort should require more than the pregnant person's consent?

#17 | Posted by visitor_

Well if they're so concerning to you then you must at least have info about the scale of the problem. How many 9 month abortions occur and how many liberals want 9 month abortions to be always legal?

#22 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2022-05-12 02:11 PM | Reply

"Still, prosecutors were never able to prove that the drug had ended the pregnancy. In fact, the medical examiner testified at Poolaw's trial that he had noticed another compelling possible cause: congenital abnormalities in the developing fetus."

It's well known that hard drug and alcohol use while pregnant can cause congenital abnormalities in a developing fetus. I'm sure whoever wrote this article knows that, and I'm guessing you do too.

#23 | Posted by sentinel at 2022-05-12 02:14 PM | Reply

#23

If it weren't for alcohol and heavy drug use, your mom would never have made it through her pregnancy with you.

#24 | Posted by ClownShack at 2022-05-12 02:24 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

In the countries like El Salvador having a miscarriage can land you in prison. These small countries have been advised by the right wing Taliban coming from the USA for years on their abortion policies. Of course, the US Taliban will go after miscarriages and morning after pills in their zeal to keep women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, while the man is out on the town looking for a few good little girls to play and lay with.

#25 | Posted by Wildman62 at 2022-05-12 02:28 PM | Reply

#23

And I guess the words "never able to prove" went right over your pointy head. If something can't be definitively proven than how can a person be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?

Stop arguing with me. You have the credibility of a zero. Think for a second: If 25% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, then how can anyone determine if the mother had criminal intent? No one has any idea how many different things can trigger miscarriages.

And lastly, the wording of the ME indicates that he wasn't relating the deformities to the meth. Again, the ME did not allege what you're alleging and you're not a forensic examiner and you've not seen any toxicology results. Stay in your lane - which happens to be the ditch you dig with your obstinance and illogic.

#26 | Posted by tonyroma at 2022-05-12 02:39 PM | Reply

You really are a moron, PizzaBoy. The jury was obviously convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that meth found in the fetus' brain and liver played a role in its death, and they weren't swayed by the weasel words of the defense which is likely what the article is disingenuously quoting as if it were fact.

#27 | Posted by sentinel at 2022-05-12 03:20 PM | Reply

Unreal. A miscarriage is not an abortion. People know what a miscarriage is. Grow up!

#28 | Posted by BellRinger at 2022-05-12 03:24 PM | Reply

I remember back when they outlawed infanticide, people were saying all crib deaths would become crimes.

#29 | Posted by sentinel at 2022-05-12 03:32 PM | Reply

Unreal. A miscarriage is not an abortion. People know what a miscarriage is. Grow up!

#28 | Posted by BellRinger

You dont think repubs will start making every woman who has a miscarriage prove it wasnt done on purpose?

You'll never stop giving the benefit of the doubt to people who keep proving you wrong.

#30 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2022-05-12 03:36 PM | Reply

#17 | POSTED BY VISITOR

you understand 91% of abortions occur before week 13? 8% between week 13-20? Only 1% of all abortions occur after week 20? Less than .1% after week 26? Less than .01% after week 30? This information has been posted on multiple related threads recently, cited and sourced. Abortions after 20 weeks are almost always due to lethal fetal abnormalities, risk to the life of the mother, or both. Which means they wanted a baby, but something went horribly wrong.

Or do you believe there's a flood of women 7 1/2 months pregnant who just figured out they don't want a baby?

#31 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2022-05-12 03:47 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#31, regardless of the numbers at that stage it's murder

#32 | Posted by BellRinger at 2022-05-12 03:50 PM | Reply

#31, regardless of the numbers at that stage it's murder

#32 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

The only murder will be the woman who is not permitted to abort a fetus because of religious whackos, you lying POS.

#33 | Posted by truthhurts at 2022-05-12 03:53 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It's well known that hard drug and alcohol use while pregnant can cause congenital abnormalities in a developing fetus. I'm sure whoever wrote this article knows that, and I'm guessing you do too.

#23 | POSTED BY SENTINEL AT 2022-05-12 02:14 PM | REPLY

What about if they don't know she's pregnant? My ex-wife's college roommate didn't think she was pregnant until the second trimester. She wasn't planning to get pregnant, she was on the pill but suffered a bout of flu before the pregnancy, which means she likely puked up one or more pills. She was a competitive distance runner with very low body fat, so her cycle was screwed up, and it was not unusual for her to miss periods, even two in a row. When she missed the third, she started to get concerned. During that period, had she been a heavy drinker and unaware she was pregnant, she could have done some real damage, even caused a miscarriage? Should she have been charged if that happened.

I saw an interesting statistic the other day, 20-50% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. The number varies so much because the majority have a miscarriages happen before the woman knows she's pregnant, so Gawd, if you believe in one, is a far more effective abortionist than is Planned Parenthood.

#34 | Posted by _Gunslinger_ at 2022-05-12 03:53 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Unreal. A miscarriage is not an abortion. People know what a miscarriage is. Grow up!

#28 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

A miscarriage can easily present as an at home abortion you vile, vile creature.

#35 | Posted by truthhurts at 2022-05-12 03:54 PM | Reply

at that stage it's murder

#32 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

But at other stages, it's not.

Right?

But Republicans will end an American right anyway.

#36 | Posted by Zed at 2022-05-12 03:55 PM | Reply

#35 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS AT 2022-05-12 03:54 PM | FLAG: "

So sorry that it's unacceptable to slam it on the ground and stomp on it.

#37 | Posted by BellRinger at 2022-05-12 04:02 PM | Reply

So sorry that it's unacceptable to slam it on the ground and stomp on it.

#37 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

The vile vile lyin POS shows he is stupid too, quelle suprise!

#38 | Posted by truthhurts at 2022-05-12 04:04 PM | Reply

So sorry that it's unacceptable to slam it on the ground and stomp on it.

#37 | Posted by BellRinger

straw men are easy to argue against aren't they?

#39 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2022-05-12 04:13 PM | Reply

" a flood of women 7 1/2 months pregnant who just figured out they don't want a baby?"

The implication that there needs to be is irrational. There isn't a flood of men with 8-month pregnant wives who just figured out they don't want a baby, but Scott Petersen is still in jail.

#40 | Posted by sentinel at 2022-05-12 04:15 PM | Reply

" a flood of women 7 1/2 months pregnant who just figured out they don't want a baby?"
The implication that there needs to be is irrational. There isn't a flood of men with 8-month pregnant wives who just figured out they don't want a baby, but Scott Petersen is still in jail.

#40 | POSTED BY SENTINEL

so, the incel, ----, MRA is a supporter of Scott Peterson. Quelle Surprise!

#41 | Posted by truthhurts at 2022-05-12 04:20 PM | Reply

#31, regardless of the numbers at that stage it's murder
#32 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

You're becoming hysterical.

Self defense is a much more appropriate analogy than murder.

A woman's body is trying to push out a fetus with a head the size of a basketball. Doing so will likely kill her.

It's murder if she defends herself from imminent harm?

#42 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-05-12 04:21 PM | Reply

SSentinel and LyingPosJeff are arguing that an unviable fetus' existence is worth more than the life of a woman.

And you wonder why we call you misogynists.

#43 | Posted by truthhurts at 2022-05-12 04:22 PM | Reply

#31, regardless of the numbers at that stage it's murder
#32 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

At what stage is it not murder, and why not?

This shouldn't be such a show-stopper of a question for you!

#44 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-05-12 04:23 PM | Reply

#40 | POSTED BY SENTINEL

What made you hate women so much?

#45 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2022-05-12 04:24 PM | Reply

I don't hate women at all. You're projecting.

#46 | Posted by sentinel at 2022-05-12 04:32 PM | Reply

"And you wonder why we call you misogynists."

We know why you do, it's because you're an immature little ---- who switches between strawman arguments faster than you switch between glory holes.

#47 | Posted by sentinel at 2022-05-12 04:35 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I don't hate women at all."

Obviously you do, or you would support their reproductive rights.

#48 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-05-12 04:40 PM | Reply

Unreal. A miscarriage is not an abortion. People know what a miscarriage is.

"There's no medical way to tell the difference between a miscarriage and a medication abortion."

Miscarriages are extremely common, despite public perception that pregnancy loss is rare. Approximately 10-20% of pregnancies confirmed by testing result in a miscarriage by 13 weeks GA, but estimates are as high as 31% to 50% when including individuals who miscarry before knowing they are pregnant.

More often than not, the cause of a pregnancy loss is unknown even after thorough evaluation. Of those with a suspected cause, the majority of miscarriages are attributed to genetic abnormalities (50-70%), and less commonly uterine cavity distortion (fibroids, adhesions, etc.), autoimmune and clotting disorders.

Risk factors for pregnancy loss include maternal age 35 years old, non-Hispanic Black race, diabetes, obesity, tobacco use (both maternal and paternal exposure) and certain illicit drug use. However, risk factors do not cause pregnancy loss, thus a pregnant person with one or more of these risk factors should not be faulted for their pregnancy loss.

www.kff.org

Nope, now thanks to Republicans many of these women will be facing charges and trials because their bodies expel zygotes.

#49 | Posted by tonyroma at 2022-05-12 04:45 PM | Reply

The implication that there needs to be is irrational. There isn't a flood of men with 8-month pregnant wives who just figured out they don't want a baby, but Scott Petersen is still in jail.

#40 | POSTED BY SENTINEL

OK, your first line, "The implication that there needs to be is irrational", I agree with. It is irrational that a woman in need of a medical procedure might not be able to obtain it.

The second part about Scott Petersen, I just don't understand to what that pertains. Are you saying he shouldn't be in jail?

#50 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2022-05-12 04:50 PM | Reply

#50 is choosing to be obtuse. It's clear from what I wrote that certain types of activity involving the death of fetus do deserve to be criminalized, even when there isn't a "flood" of such activity. Including what Scott Petersen did.

#51 | Posted by sentinel at 2022-05-12 04:56 PM | Reply

#49 JeffJ boasts his ignorance of women's health issues every chance he gets.

Of course miscarriages will be investigated. JeffJ and the rest of the Conservatives are adamant that late term abortion is murder.

"Oops, I spontaneously aborted!" will need to be investigated as a potential homicide.

#52 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-05-12 05:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"It's clear from what I wrote that certain types of activity involving the death of fetus do deserve to be criminalized"

Then be clear.

What activities need to be criminalized, that aren't currently subject to criminalization?

#53 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-05-12 05:02 PM | Reply

People know what a miscarriage is.

You don't know Jack.

US women are being jailed for having miscarriages

www.bbc.com

#54 | Posted by ClownShack at 2022-05-12 05:07 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

It's clear from what I wrote that certain types of activity involving the death of fetus do deserve to be criminalized, even when there isn't a "flood" of such activity. Including what Scott Petersen did.

#51 | POSTED BY SENTINEL

No. That wasn't clear from your original post. It's clear you don't believe abortion should be legal, and it's fine if that's your strongly held belief. I'm not going to try to change it. But I will do everything I can to keep you and others like you from forcing your beliefs on the majority of Americans who want continued protected access to safe, legal abortions.

#55 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2022-05-12 05:24 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#54 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2022-05-12 05:07 PM | REPLY | FLAGGED FUNNY BY LFTHNDTURDS

You want a participation award?

It's sad how cowardly you are.

#56 | Posted by ClownShack at 2022-05-12 06:24 PM | Reply

If crazy ideas win there is no end to crazy.

#57 | Posted by Brennnn at 2022-05-12 06:30 PM | Reply

If a rethuglican kills their post birth kid with a gun, it was an accident and they have suffered enough with the loss of their child, no charges.

How, come we can't just say that a woman has suffered enough with the loss of a zygote, no charges?

#58 | Posted by bored at 2022-05-12 07:38 PM | Reply

"How, come we can't just say that a woman has suffered enough with the loss of a zygote, no charges?"

Because she had sex for fun, and there must be consequences.

#59 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-05-12 07:51 PM | Reply

It's all about control.

Look at Susan Collins deciding to call the cops, when faced with a chalked sidewalk.

Control. Authority. Power.

#60 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-05-12 07:56 PM | Reply

"No. That wasn't clear from your original post."

It was. You're just more interested in projecting views than you are in paying attention to what others are actually saying.

"It's clear you don't believe abortion should be legal"

Case in point.

#61 | Posted by sentinel at 2022-05-12 08:07 PM | Reply

Including what Scott Petersen did.

Isn't he on death row for that?

#62 | Posted by REDIAL at 2022-05-12 08:43 PM | Reply

It was knocked down to life without parole

#63 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2022-05-12 08:50 PM | Reply

It was knocked down to life without parole

Well that's a shame. Mind you in California death row is pretty much the same thing.

#64 | Posted by REDIAL at 2022-05-12 08:55 PM | Reply

~left whang PC road apple

#7 | POSTED BY PHESTEROBOYLE

I disagree that DeSantis is left wing.

Agree he's a turd in the street.

#65 | Posted by jpw at 2022-05-13 08:37 AM | Reply

#61 | POSTED BY SENTINEL

Projecting views? Isn't that what you're doing?

If I read your position wrong I apologize. But I disagree you were clear, and I'm done arguing about it.

#66 | Posted by El_Buscador at 2022-05-13 12:15 PM | Reply

If crazy ideas win there is no end to crazy.

#57 | POSTED BY BRENNNN

If we do not stop them the crazies will be coming for everyone.

Eventually.

Too many good men are doing nothing to stop them.

#67 | Posted by donnerboy at 2022-05-13 10:15 PM | Reply

#67

"Too many good men are doing nothing to stop them."

Then stop your incessant whining and do something about it, Marine.

SFMF

#68 | Posted by willowby at 2022-05-13 11:27 PM | Reply

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