Turns Out the 'Good Guy with a Gun' Doesn't Stand a Chance

Steve Kerr Demands Mitch McConnell 'Let Go Of Power' To Stop School Shootings

By John Amato " May 25, 2022
Instead of talking about his upcoming game against the Dallas Mavericks, Golden State Warriors coach Steve Kerr launched into a passionate speech not just condemning gun violence, but pointing directly at the politicians who are sitting there doing nothing while children are being murdered.

"Any basketball questions don't matter. 14 children were killed 400 miles from here," he said.

"In the last 10 days, we've had elderly black people killed in a supermarket in Buffalo. Asian churchgoers killed in Southern California and now we have children murdered in a school."

Kerr bashed the table with his hands and screamed, "When are we gonna do something!"

Kerr continued, "I'm tired. I am so tired of getting up here and offering condolences to the devastated families that are out there. I am so tired of the, excuse me, I am sorry, I am tired of the moments of silence. Enough!'

"There's 50 senators right now who refuse to vote on HR 8 which is a background check that the House passed a couple years ago, been sitting there for two years and there's a reason they won't vote on it -- they want to hold onto power," Kerr exclaimed.

Kerr continued, "So I ask you, Mitch McConnell, and all of you senators who refused to do anything about the violence in school shootings, in supermarket shootings, I ask you, are you going to put your own desire for power ahead of the lives of our children, and our elderly, and our churchgoers? Because that's what it looks like. I'm fed up. I've had enough."

So many of us have had enough.

It is all about political power for Republicans and their undying love of the NRA and its dirty blood money.

Thank you, Coach Kerr.

Gunman Was Inside School for Roughly an Hour Before Being Shot

Around 11:30 a.m., the Uvalde police received a 911 call that a truck had crashed at the school and a man had emerged from it with a long rifle and a backpack. Mr. Ramos exchanged shots with at least one armed officer from the Uvalde school district, but managed to get past the officer.

He eventually barricaded himself inside a classroom in the school, where he opened fire with what a state police official described as an AR-15-style rifle. He was inside the school for about an hour before a tactical unit from the Border Patrol arrived and shot him several times, killing him, the official said.

www.nytimes.com

#16 - I've watched that three times now. Everyone should feel that way. I feel that way. Enough already!

The Onion ran the same headline it always runs when we have another one of these mass shootings:

No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

Another question that comes to mind is: will the teachers be expected to buy their own guns in the same way they so often buy classroom supplies with their own money?

Gunman Was Inside School for Roughly an Hour Before Being Shot

^
New high score?

Maybe that's what Abbott meant. It could have been worse. The gunman could have been in there for two hours!

"There's 50 senators right now who refuse to vote on HR 8 which is a background check

Would this have done anything? Did he have a "backgound" worth checking/stopping this or even the Buffalo incident? Didn't Kerr lobby against police at schools? I don't see the problem with police at schools.

I thought the best idea I heard was raising the age of purchase to 21. When all the hormones of youth have run it course.

I think the argument about the shots per minute having increased makes sense to restrict some access. Its just absurd at this point.

Onlookers urged police to charge into Texas school

twitter.com

Onlookers urged police to charge into Texas school

Although I understand both the sentiment and desire - particularly of those who had children trapped inside the building - the police rightly knew better than to senselessly throw themselves into a situation where the assailant was armored and possessed greater firepower than they did until back ups arrived. Had anyone else not wielding a high powered weapon tried to engage the shooter, they themselves would have likely died or been wounded and thrust yet another family/families into mourning for lost or injured loved ones.

The only hope of a bumrush would have been that the leader(s) could have allowed those following to physically subdue the shooter at the cost of their own safety or lives.

#24 very sensible, and all the reasons we shouldn't expect teachers with guns to defend their students against these mass shooters.

Yes, it's a shame Trump wasn't there to rush the school unarmed and save those kids.

the police rightly knew better than to senselessly throw themselves into a situation where the assailant was armored and possessed greater firepower than they did until back ups arrived

Nonsense. The reports I've seen said he was wearing a vest to hold magazines with no armor plates. But even if he was dressed like robocob the cops must defend a school with their life. There were three cops on scene before the gunman entered the building. Giving them them benefit of the doubt I suspect they will have a hard time looking in the mirror for awhile. There are in fact worse things than no longer being alive.

Ramos killed 19. How many do you think he would have killed if he had not been shot by a "good guy with a gun"?

Every shooting is different. There is no blanket solution to the gun violence problem. Many proposed solutions are worthwhile because they have the potential to limit the number of fatalities, or make it a little bit harder for the shooter to obtain a firearm. Unfortunately, those intent on violence will find a way around new restrictions. Most of the legislation on the table is crafted to serve the electoral interests of the politicians advancing it, not actually solve the gun violence problem. To recognize this, you have toRead the bills, not just the headlines

#27
I agree. The cops MUST defend the school with their lives and cannot wait for backup in an active shooter situation, even if they are outgunned. We are trained to immediately enter the building and to locate and engage the shooter.

I don't know enough about the details yet to judge these officers, but reports of them waiting outside while onlookers urged them to go inside are troubling. That is cowardice

There were three cops on scene before the gunman entered the building. Giving them them benefit of the doubt I suspect they will have a hard time looking in the mirror for awhile.

You need more better sources for your information and you obviously didn't bother to read the information already contained in this thread above before making such unsupported observations.

When the attacker crashed the truck, it prompted a 911 call from a resident who added that the driver apparently had a rifle, said Travis Considine, spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety. The gunman encountered a school police officer and "they exchange gunfire," Considine said, with the shooter wounding the officer and heading inside.

The side entrance to the school should have been locked, but it was unclear whether it was or if Ramos forced it open.

Two Uvalde police officers then showed up, Considine said, and tried to get inside, exchanging more gunfire with Ramos. Both officers were wounded, he said. The attacker then went to a fourth-grade classroom, where he barricaded himself in and "does most, if not all, of his damage." A Border Patrol team responded to the scene, as did other law enforcement officials, who "were breaking windows and getting kids out," Considine said.

www.washingtonpost.com

The three officers you mentioned were all wounded trying to battle the shooter. They were unable to stop him with their weapons from entering the school, and then he continued to murder or injure another 30 plus individuals over the course of an hour. Fortunately, he was pinned down to one room and did not have the ability to further work his way through the school.

As it regards timeline, there's this:

In public transmissions on a radio channel used by local EMS workers, someone said at 11:53 a.m. that a lieutenant had requested a response to the area of the school. As the response was discussed, one official was heard telling first responders: "Please, just stay back."

By 12:10 p.m., a Facebook live stream recorded out the front of the school showed that police cars had established a perimeter, helicopters were flying overhead and onlookers had gathered. Seven minutes later, school authorities announced on social media there was "an active shooter at Robb Elementary."

Shots were still being heard at 12:52 p.m., according to radio recordings. "Do not attempt to get closer," a voice warned on the EMS channel.

After hearing gunfire, authorities said, a tactical team formed a "stack" formation and eventually breached the classroom door and killed Ramos in a shootout. Ramos was in the room for some time before police officers entered, and it was unclear whether he killed the students when he first barricaded himself inside or just before the police breached the room.

At 1:06 p.m., Uvalde Police announced on social media that the attack was over. (same link as above)

So all these police/Boarder Patrol who you claim should lay down their own lives in order to save children from a lightly protected gunman - whom it took close to an hour to amass enough tactical force to neutralize - were wrong or negligent?

I don't know enough about the details yet to judge these officers, but reports of them waiting outside while onlookers urged them to go inside are troubling. That is cowardice

Good grief, I can't believe what I'm reading. The shooter had over 200 rounds of ammo. Had individual police officers continually tried to take him on with their service weapons, the carnage would have been orders of magnitude greater AND the shooter would have likely shot more students as well if there was not a coordinated effort to keep him pinned down.

Based on how quickly police tend to shoot unarmed suspects that they "fear" plan on doing them harm as they try to run AWAY from the officers pursuing them, this notion that officers should "banzai" charge a known shooter who possesses tactical advantages over them - including having greater firepower while wearing protective armor - who already wounded 3 other officers who engaged him and failed to stop him from entering the school in the first place - makes no sense at all based on all the operative factors listed above.

However, I'm not a cop, but I am a citizen. I never expect any officer to senselessly put their lives in danger against common sense odds unless that is what the individual decides to do for themselves. The point of this argument is not to criticize the police, it's to highlight that they're at a tactical disadvantage when facing shooters with greater firepower and body armor that makes them almost impervious to individual officers trying to subdue them. It now takes tactical teams to take out single shooters. One good guy with a hand gun or shotgun has no chance under these circumstances.

But even if he was dressed like robocob the cops must defend a school with their life.

"In the cases DeShaney vs. Winnebago and Town of Castle Rock vs. Gonzales, the supreme court has ruled that police agencies are not obligated to provide protection of citizens. In other words, police are well within their rights to pick and choose when to intervene to protect the lives and property of others " even when a threat is apparent.

In both of these court cases, clear and repeated threats were made against the safety of children " but government agencies chose to take no action."

Source

The police are not and never have been your friends, and certainly not there to protect you.

"School shooters are now old (or young) enough to have gone through the shooting drills in the schools they shoot up.
They know where to go and what to do. They know how to turn what they learned in the drills into the highest number of casualties & carnage."

Absolutely true. Also ironic that the unbreachable security doors designed to provide safety to students barricading inside classrooms also prevented their rescue.

Also ironic that the unbreachable security doors designed to provide safety to students barricading inside classrooms also prevented their rescue.

And no one ever considered that a tactical situation might arise where the "good guys" would need to enter the schools in order to confront an active threat?

Why in God's name aren't there "keys" or other access methods reserved for law enforcement or EMS to use when emergency entrance is imperative? No school security expert/engineer ever thought of this?

I guess the operative question now is why didn't this school have a video monitoring system with offsite access that could have identified the shooter ensconced in one classroom and would have allowed at minimum other distanced rooms to vacate the school safely and also allowed LEO to enter far more quickly than they did?

Josh Marshall's latest:

According to the latest reports, a school security officer exchanged gun fire with the shooter prior to the shooter entering the school. The two municipal police officers exchanged gunfire with the shooter once he was already in the school but - apparently - before he had actually begun shooting kids. They apparently felt they were outgunned. So they called in backup.

Apparently police on the scene waited for a significant period of time - like tens of minutes - while parents outside the schools begged them to go in and kill the shooter. Parents even brainstormed about whether they should go in and rush the shooter themselves since the mass shooting was unfolding as everyone waited outside.

The latest reports - again, tentative - say the shooter barricaded himself in a classroom and then began killing children and teachers in that classroom. Apparently everyone who died was in that classroom.

The school shooting police doctrine since Columbine has been that you don't wait on the perimeter. You enter and try to kill or disarm the shooter as soon as possible. If I were these parents I would never forgive these officers. And for good reason. You don't have to sign up to be a police officer. These are the moments which make being a police officer dangerous. Sometimes highly dangerous. But that's the job. That's why, for all the shifting social perceptions of police officers, they're given great societal deference as heroes.

That said, from a policy viewpoint, we should look beyond individual courage or cowardice. If a shooter has body armor and one or more AR-15s he has a big advantage over a cop with a handgun. That was almost certainly the case with the school district officer and it was quite likely the case with the two municipal officers who were there on the scene. Trying to rush the shooter very likely would have gotten them killed.

The global point is this: As long as society allows pretty much anyone to arm themselves as the functional equivalent of a combat solider - AR-15 and body armor - that person is almost certainly going to dramatically outgun the first police officers they encounter. It's probably unrealistic to assume those officers are routinely going to sacrifice their own lives in what may be a futile effort.

"There is no blanket solution to the gun violence problem."

^
I don't understand this kind of talk.

They seem to have gun violence mostly snuffed out in literally every other modern country.

"It's probably unrealistic to assume those officers are routinely going to sacrifice their own lives in what may be a futile effort."

That's the armed teacher's job.
According to the "arm the teachers" GOP.

every other modern country.

#36 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2022-05-26 09:54 AM | FLAG:

Ahh the casual racism again. Latin Americans, nothing modern about them right?

"Modern country" has a meaning. It's also a terrible music genre, but I digress.
Japan fits the bill, and they ain't white.
Lo siento, Paco.

when none of its advocates could have imagined personal weapons with modern firing capacities and capabilities now matched with semi-impervious suits of armors that can fire and kill tens of persons in the matter of a few seconds.

#1 | POSTED BY TONYROMA AT 2022-05-25 09:58 AM | FLAG:

People really underestimate the era. What you have in your head is the image of 2 armies marching up and fighting in Napoleonic battle formations. That's only a narrow slice of warfare in the era. US sharpshooters of the era laid in the grass with multiple loaded rifles to pick off British officers. The people of the time privately owned entire warships with cannon batteries capable of destroying coastal towns. What they did for rapid fire was the same thing the FBI has researched that mass shooters do when faced with a limited ammo capacity, they bring more guns. They were also shot at by the British with Nock Guns, which are 7 barreled contraptions designed to kill multiple people per shot and came out 7 years before the Declaration of Independence was signed. The Puckle Gun came out in 1718. The "high capacity, repeating crossbow" was so devastating (but complex and expensive) that it was in service from 4th century BC to the late 19th Century.

"Semi-impervious" is not how I'd describe a vest. If it works correctly it's still like getting hit with a hammer, and that's from small caliber rounds. It sucks really bad. You can still get knocked out of the fight quite quickly, assuming it actually hits the vest and not any of the other areas that aren't covered.

The "Founders could never see it coming!" argument doesn't hold up to historical scrutiny.

Tony, a lot to unpack here,
"The shooter had over 200 rounds of ammo" The responding officers didn't know that, but even if they had, they would have been even more motivated to stop him knowing he had the ammo to kill 200 kids.

"Had individual police officers continually tried to take him on with their service weapons, the carnage would have been orders of magnitude greater"
That makes no sense. How would officers continuing to take him down result in MORE carnage? One well-placed shot from a Glock could have ended it. Even if unsuccessful, the officers presence in the building distracts the shooter from killing more kids and causes him to "hunker down". And sadly, every bullet that went into a cop was one less available to shoot kids with.

"Based on how quickly police tend to shoot unarmed suspects that they "fear" plan on doing them harm as they try to run AWAY from the officers pursuing them"
YOUR BIAS IS SHOWING. There are a million police officers in the US. The percentage of officers that have shot unarmed suspects is infinitessimally small, yet you hold that as the typical police mindset? It's not. Most officers have been physically attacked and sustained injuries dozens of times in their careers and never shoot anyone.

"However, I'm not a cop, but I am a citizen. I never expect any officer to senselessly put their lives in danger against common sense odds"
Which is why you will never understand cops. That is what most cops do, at least several times a week. Cops run toward the danger while everyone else runs away. Officers who will NOT put their lives on the line to save children "against common sense odds" are the exception, not the rule.

"The point of this argument is not to criticize the police, it's to highlight that they're at a tactical disadvantage when facing shooters with greater firepower and body armor that makes them almost impervious to individual officers trying to subdue them. One good guy with a hand gun or shotgun has no chance under these circumstances."
It only takes one bullet to take down the shooter, and a .40 Glock is more deadly than a rifle round. The officers may have been outgunned, but they have training and tactical skill which far exceeds that of a video game trained teenager.

Decades ago, the typical response was to set up a perimeter, evacuate and wait for SWAT to make a coordinated tactical entry. Columbine changed that. Officers can't just wait outside while innocents are being killed. Now all officers in US get training specific to Active Shooter Incidents. Immediate entry is part of that training. Yes, it is dangerous for the officers, but I don't know a single officer who won't put their own life on the line (against common sense odds) to save innocent children.

There are a few reported cases where officers stayed outside during an active shooter incident (there was one officer in Parkland, and Tony mentioned a couple cases). The courts did not hold the officers criminally responsible, but they should lose their badges. That is cowardice, and again, it is the exception, not the rule. Can't make that judgement on this case yet, don't know all the facts.

"And no one ever considered that a tactical situation might arise where the "good guys" would need to enter the schools in order to confront an active threat?"

In modern schools, the classroom doors can be remotely locked or unlocked from the office. The problem is finding the person who can unlock the doors at a chaotic scene. That happened in Parkland, the doors were all locked in response the the active shooter and police couldn't get inside.

"Why in God's name aren't there "keys" or other access methods reserved for law enforcement or EMS to use when emergency entrance is imperative?" Agree this needs to be addressed.

"I guess the operative question now is why didn't this school have a video monitoring system"
Teachers Unions absolutely will not allow cameras in the classroom.

Can't make that judgement on this case yet, don't know all the facts.

#41 | POSTED BY MIRANDA7

We can make certain judgments, one being that forty minutes is an awful long time for someone with an AR-15 to be left alone with schoolkids.

Zed, I agree with your statement, my only hesitance to judge is that right now there are more rumors than facts.

Teachers Unions absolutely will not allow cameras in the classroom.

Don't know where you're getting your information, but that is wrong.

Are School Security Cameras Legal?

The short answer is: yes! It's legal to have security cameras in schools. That said, there are several things to be mindful of when setting up video surveillance on campus. In addition, states have different laws regarding school surveillance, so it's important to check your state's specific regulations.

I'm 62 years old, and when I was in school during the 70s, two-way intercoms could both listen and broadcast into individual classrooms. Even this type of monitoring could have facilitated a potential evacuation for students not near to the shooter. My point was in regards to simple video surveillance for security purposes and I can find nowhere that this is controversial. Texas law mandates that upon request from any parent that video/audio surveillance must be placed into special education settings and rooms, but I can find nothing either allowing or disallowing security video in general classrooms in Texas schools.

Sounds like they were waiting for him to run out of ammo.

That's some quick thinking by the cops. Probably saved their own lives. Hopefully their cool-headed approach doesn't go unheralded.

It nice to think that hardening schools would deter killers from shooting them up but doing so would only redirect killers to softer targets such as playgrounds. School resource officers are not equipped to deal with killers intent on shooting up a school. The killers have the element of surprise and advanced planning. About the only thing school resource officers are good for are tackling pubescent black girls to the floor when they act up.

"Don't know where you're getting your information, but that is wrong.

Are School Security Cameras Legal?"

Didn't say they were Illegal. I said the teachers unions will never allow them. It has come up before in many localities and turned into a partisan debate.

#47. Your bias is showing too. How many pubescent Black girls have been tackled by SRO's? Divide that by the number of schools in America with SRO's. You will probably get a number with a lot of zeros after the decimal point. Yes it happens but not in statistically significant numbers.

I know you see me as a cop apologist ... ..but get real here. These kinds of judgements of all officers based On the actions of a very small minority of them is bad for our society in general.

The only reaction to expect is escalation. That is all we know.

Expect arming teachers and further militarization of the police.

And escalation never leads to a successful resolution

"These kinds of judgements of all officers based On the actions of a very small minority of them is bad for our society in general."

That's a two way street.
Let me know when officers stop racially profiling, and I'll think about stopping making assumptions about cops.

There's a photo on reddit today of a cop, with an assault rifle, ready to tase parents outside the school in Uvalde but who wouldn't go inside to protect their children.

Link to photo

These kinds of judgements of all officers based On the actions of a very small minority of them is bad for our society in general.

#49 | POSTED BY MIRANDA7 AT 2022-05-26 11:03 AM | FLAG:

And the media are the number one catalyst.

I said the teachers unions will never allow them.

That may have been true in the past and in isolated places, it's no longer true today for the very reasons we're having this discussion. Teachers unions do not make law and they do not override the security concerns of the parents whose children they teach.

All of my children's schools had security cameras all over their school's campuses and they graduated almost 10 years ago.

#52 Yes, I saw the video too and it provides more questions than answers. It looks a little different from the narrative "officers standing around outside while parents urge them to go inside to save their children". Where was this in the timeline? Obviously enough time had passed for parent to arrive, and by that time there would be dozens of officers on scene as well. All officers in surrounding communities would respond and Border Patrol SWAT was training nearby and allegedly arrived in minutes. Was the suspect already contained? Were there already enough officers inside? If there were enough, some officers would be assigned outside for traffic and crowd control. Traffic needs to be controlled to allow ambulances in and out, and hysterical parents rushing inside would certainly make things more dangerous for everyone. Lots of twitter rumors and videos without context. I will wait for factual details before making judgements.

"Was the suspect already contained? Were there already enough officers inside?"

Give it up, son.

The cops let this guy rampage for almost an hour.

Tony,
Were there cameras IN the classrooms? I've never seen security footage from inside a classroom, but your area may be different.

POSTED BY MIRANDA7

You looking for some murder porn?

You're a sick fkkk.

Let me know when officers stop racially profiling, and I'll think about stopping making assumptions about cops.

Very nice retort!

the media are the number one catalyst.
#53 | POSTED BY LFTHNDTURDS

Yea. It's the medias fault gun laws in Texas make gun purchases so easy that 19 children were brutally murdered.

So far, you blamed Biden, liberals, the media.

But nothing about Abbott or Texas Republicans who wrote the laws which made this tragedy possible.

Keep on being a POS Trumper.

It's what you excel at.

Yea. It's the medias fault gun laws in Texas make gun purchases so easy that 19 children were brutally murdered.
So far, you blamed Biden, liberals, the media.
But nothing about Abbott or Texas Republicans who wrote the laws which made this tragedy possible.
Keep on being a POS Trumper.
It's what you excel at.

#60 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2022-05-26 12:08 PM

Hey dumbass, we were talking about police. Next time read a little and keep your penis trap closed until you understand the subject matter.

#58 Clownshack you have proven time again that you have no reading comprehension whatsover. I have no desire to see footage of this attack. My post was in response to #54. You really should get on some meds for your ADHD.

Hey dumbass, we were talking about police. Next time read a little and keep your penis trap closed until you understand the subject matter.

#61 | POSTED BY LFTHNDTHRDS

Also

And the media are the number one catalyst.

#53 | POSTED BY LFTHNDTHRDS

You're a ------- idiot

#57

I just checked with my son and he said cameras were everywhere but for individual classrooms. In this case, shouldn't having video feeds of the hallways and common areas led to the evacuation of those a distance away from the shooter, since the police knew precisely where he was barricaded?

Welcome to the new Wild West.

Thanks republicans. You built this.

I was hit in the vest, just above the right kidney, with a .38 from about 10 feet. It did feel like getting hit with a hammer. My entire back was bruised and I could hardly move for a week. I pissed blood for about 2 weeks. Fortunately no internal damage requiring surgery. Thankfully he wasn't packing something heavier.

"Semi-impervious" is not how I'd describe a vest.

Has it been confirmed that the shooter was only wearing a vest? When I hear the term "body armor", I assume a SUIT, not a vest. If it had only been a vest, then it's not "body" armor, it's an armored vest at best. The term "body" means body, not just the torso.

Has anyone definitively found out what he was wearing?

#67 | POSTED BY TONYROMA

This is the most detailed article I've found so far. States he was wearing a plate carrier vest but had no plates installed. Depending on the specific vest it would still have level IIa-IIIa - which basically means handgun rounds - ballistic protection. The plate pockets allow for additional ballistic plate to be inserted over vital areas which can increase protection to III or IV - which means rifle rounds. So even with no plates he still had ballistic protection against the SRO's handgun - 9mm, .40 or .45 with JHP's.

Beau of the Fifth Column - Let's talk about cops waiting outside, Rule 303, and the way....

www.texastribune.org

sorry, here's the link

#1 | Posted by tonyroma

Turns out it was a vest to carry mags for his AR-15, not body armor. So much for the cop's shooting abilities.

The cops stood around for 40 minutes - and actually tackled parents who charged the school after observing their lack of action? There were swarms of them outside the school during those 40 minutes.

"Good guys guns stop bad guys with guns" huh?

As the Associated Press reports, response to the mass shooting was so slow that even though police had been on the scene since the beginning of the incident, who heard about the shooting arrived at the school to find that the killer was still in the classroom. Shots were still being fired. Police were still waiting outside, making no apparent effort to end the ongoing murders.

Parents looked on in frustration as police refused to go in to save the children. That frustration reached the level where it seemed that parents were attempting to rush the classroom themselves. At which point police did respond"by confronting and tackling at least one of the parents.

"Lots of "good guys with guns" and not one of those 'brave heroes' with guns even entered the school for 40 minutes as he continued his rampage.

Like the cop at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School who ran away.

"I just checked with my son and he said cameras were everywhere but for individual classrooms. In this case, shouldn't having video feeds of the hallways and common areas led to the evacuation of those a distance away from the shooter, since the police knew precisely where he was barricaded?" The monitors are generally located in the main office or SRO office, and once shots start everybody runs out of there in a hurry leaving nobody to watch the feed. Remote monitoring is a very good idea, but as fast as something like this unrolls.... Depends on the system in place. If there is a lockdown system where high security doors all doors lock simultaneously, then evacuation efforts should wait until the shooter is apprehended. The safest place for the kids farther away from the threat to remain in the classroom, as the shooter is isolated in another area.

#71, #72 So far info about the 40 minute delay is based on rumours. I'll wait for the facts. If that's what really happened, then I'm right with you. A police department is no place for cowards.

The vest is a bit irrelevant. Officers are trained to go for a head shot if subject is wearing a vest or center of mass isn't working. A .40 into a vest can easily knock down and at least stun the shooter. I'd bet the officers who shot at him missed, or didn't fire due to backstop. Hard to get a bead on a moving target who is firing at you.

#74

The latest I've seen is that the Border Patrol is saying they immediately formed a phalanx and went into the school, but they were armed with long rifles, not handguns, and had already been given tactical recon.

I still think the locals did not enter because they knew doing so would have been probably suicidal considering 3 armed officers were unable to stop him from entering in the first place.

But again, I'm not a cop, but I completely disagree with the notion that the children and families of officers somehow should be alright with them storming into a situation at a known tactical disadvantage where officers have already been wounded. All the dead and wounded were in that single room, pinning the shooter down at minimum kept him from targeting others in the school, so there is that. Again, I'm completely torn by the entirety of this tragedy, but I'm trying to take a rational 360 degree view of the situation as it was happening based on what's known of the information available to those at the scene.

I re-refer to post #35, though I completely understand the sentiment to prioritize the lives of children over those of the police. The reality is there are workable solutions that could have been implemented to keep such situations from happening in the first place. There is no constitutional amendment keeping non-military/LEO use of body armor from being outlawed, that would at least be a start in the right direction of public safety.

A .40 into a vest can easily knock down and at least stun the shooter.
#75 | POSTED BY MIRANDA7

Depends on the vest worn, but not necessarily. It's painful and still a blunt force injury, which may stun the shooter briefly, but does not have the energy to knock the person down. yes, the officer was most likely trained to fire to the head or groin if center mass shots aren't effective, but he may have been hit before he could adjust fire. Or just missed. Shooting someone who's shooting at you isn't like punching paper at the range.

Execute the cops for cowardice in the face of the enemy. Militarization of cops cuts both ways.

#70 - Thanks

#71 - See 70. The vest was protective, just not maximally protective.

The very latest info:

At the police briefing in Uvalde that just concluded, investigators were not able to answer why it took more than an hour to breach a classroom and kill the gunman who massacred 19 children and two teachers at Robb Elementary School.

"He walked in unobstructed initially," Escalon said, saying initial reports that the gunman was confronted by a school district police officer were inaccurate.

Escalon said that the gunman entered the building through the building's west side at around 11:40 a.m. and walked through the school hallways until he eventually reached an open classroom. Officers arrived on the scene by 11:45. "The initial officers, they don't make entry initially because of the gunfire they receive," Mr. Escalon said. He added that officials were making calls to bring in help and additional resources.

The authorities said they called for backup within minutes of first exchanging fire with the gunman at the school. "During that time they're making these calls to get help, they're also evacuating, students, teachers," Escalon said. "There's a lot going on." About an hour later, U.S. Border Patrol tactical teams arrived.

The authorities said the vast majority of the gunfire - "multiple rounds" - were fired at the beginning of the hourlong episode, Escalon said.

Escalon said an important question for the authorities to answer was: "Could anybody have got there sooner?" He said that would only be known once all of the responding officers had been interviewed. "Give us time," he said.

www.nytimes.com

They will be interviewing all the officers, teachers and witnesses and use transcripts of radio traffic and physical evidence at the scene to accurately reconstruct the timeline and events. That takes a while. The report for the Parkland shootings was very detailed and demonstrated that the actual events were very different from those reported in the news media at the time.

Yes. Full Stop.

You seem to be making an argument based on some perceived tactical disadvantage. I find that weird on its face. Not just because we dont have all the facts to make such an assessment, but I doubt either of us have the training necessary to make such a judgement. QCP is making a legal argument. That to me also comes off as weird an irrelevant. I'm making a moral argument. The police we pay and train and arm and give nearly carte blanche approval on the use of deadly force are morally obligated to lay down their lives to defend children. If 5 cops are killed to save one child that is a price worth paying.

The police we pay and train and arm and give nearly carte blanche approval on the use of deadly force are morally obligated to lay down their lives to defend children.

#82 | POSTED BY BLUSKY

At least one of the teachers inside is dead after apparently using her own body to protect her kids.

using her own body to protect her kids.

Big mistake. She should have waited until she had the optimal 10-1 ratio, full recon assessment, overwhelming fire power and several of those 10 gallon hats all the Texas cops wear before engaging.

Then out spake brave Horatius....

#82 | POSTED BY BLUSKY AT 2022-05-26 04:46 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

I don't disagree with your comment but this was an issue in the florida school shooting. The cop onsite ran and hid while the shooter dished out carnage. The officer got his job back and also back pay for the time he missed from work.

www.usatoday.com

3 police officers already exchanged fire with the gunman as he stormed the school. (in texas)

His body armor laughed at them.

www.dailymail.co.uk">Texas Department of Public Safety South Regional Director Victor Escalon gives an update into the investigation following a mass shooting at the Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, USA, 26 May 2022 /a>

Texas cops have revealed that there was no armed guard on campus when the gunman arrived on Tuesday which allowed him to walk 'unobstructed' through an unlocked door and into the building where he slaughtered 21 people. At a press conference on Thursday afternoon, Victor Escalon, the Regional Director for the Department of Public Safety South Texas, said Salvador Ramos walked through an unlocked door 'unobstructed' and that there was no guard 'readily available'. It contradicts earlier reports that he fired at a school resource officer.

Ramos entered the school at 11.40am, 12 minutes after crashing his truck outside the school and walking towards campus with his AR-15. That is when police were alerted to the scene. At 11.44am, the first cops entered the school. Ramos shot at them and they retreated.
It's unclear if he had already shot the kids and teachers in the fourth grade classroom by then, or if he went on to attack them after those cops retreated. It then took an hour for specialized SWAT teams to arrive. At 1.06pm, the incident was declared over after Ramos was shot dead. In the meantime, 150 cops were gathering outside. Some of them were filmed pinning parents to the floor and some were even placed in handcuffs, according to witnesses.

"First officers on scene retreated when he opened fire on them then waited an HOUR for SWAT"

First officers on the scene should all resign in disgrace.

30+ years of "Sheepdog" police training, and this group retreats at first contact instead of flanking.

These Colors Don't Run
.
.
(thin blue line flag)
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.
Into schools to save dying children
i.imgur.com

using her own body to protect her kids.

Her husband died today of heart ache. They had four kids. I have to cry just to type it.

I've lost a lot of respect for some of you. Not completely sure you are fully evolved human beings. Shame on you.

Uvalde SWAT Team class picture
twitter.com

This is very troubling.

A fourth grader who survived the mass shooting at Robb Elementary has shared gut-wrenching details about what he witnessed inside that classroom.

"He shot the next person's door. We have a door in the middle. He opened it. He came in and he crouched a little bit and he said, he said, 'It's time to die,'" the boy recalled. Authorities say the suspect barricaded himself inside a classroom and opened fire on the people inside, killing 19 children and two teachers before he was killed by law enforcement.

"When I heard the shooting through the door, I told my friend to hide under something so he won't find us," he said. "I was hiding hard. And I was telling my friend to not talk because he is going to hear us."

The boy and four others hid under a table that had a tablecloth over it, which may have shielded them from the shooter's view and saved their lives. The boy shared heartbreaking details about what happened in that room.

"When the cops came, the cop said: 'Yell if you need help!' And one of the persons in my class said 'help.' The guy overheard and he came in and shot her," the boy said. "The cop barged into that classroom. The guy shot at the cop. And the cops started shooting."

He said that once the shooting stopped, he came out from under the table.

"I just opened the curtain. And I just put my hand out," he said. "I got out with my friend. I knew it was police. I saw the armor and the shield."

www.kens5.com

These police have quite a lot of explaining to do and the constantly changing stories have eroded any sympathy they might have had prior to inexplicable corrections and first hand accounts beginning to emerge.

#82

That's a nice fantasy. Cops are awful people.

And I wasnt making a legal argument I was saying, and showing that the Supreme Court agrees, you should never count on a cop to help you.

#96

I understood your point. Unfortunately, there is no "moral" enforcement mechanism in American law. There certainly can be an obligation, but who can blame any officer who may be thinking about his own children becoming orphans due to the actions he's about to undertake. Absolutely in a vacuum they should heroically thrust themselves into any situation where saving a child's life hangs in the balance, but even police are human and have human frailties. But one thing is almost certainly true: If the shooter didn't have a semi-automatic rifle, but instead had a handgun, and if he weren't wearing protective gear, the police would have certainly gone after him sooner than they apparently did. The firepower he had and the protection his gear afforded him most certainly gave the police pause. Whether or not that was negligent or cowardly I cannot yet posit a fully-informed opinion.

But I understand and empathize with Blusky's point and outrage. But as he rightly pointed out, none of us have enough information to conclusively say that the police should have entered the building at any particular point in time before they did - YET.

And that's a big yet. But if the child's story I posted above is to be believed as true, whenever the police did enter and called out to children to respond if they needed help, at least one little girl probably lost her life following their instructions. Shouldn't they have known better than to have hiding children give up their positions to a maniac who's actively trying to kill them?

there is no "moral" enforcement mechanism in American law
And I'm not suggesting we put them on trial for their moral failing. But there was clearly a moral failing and they will have to live with it. Whatever social and/or psychological consequences they endure will be well deserved.

but who can blame any officer who may be thinking about his own children
Me. I can blame them. The parents of those dismembered children (apparently there was a lot of extracurricular gunfire and some had to be identified by DNA) can blame them. Society can blame them. I dont feel I need to know all the details and I'm not sure I want to know them. A teenage gunman over took trained officers who sustained minor injuries and was allowed to create an absolute bloodbath for an hour before the Federal government had to step in once there were no children left to kill. Disgraceful.

#76 | Posted by tonyroma

They're now saying the gunman was in four different classrooms.

#99

Refer to post #94.

It's almost certain the police completely screwed the pooch and then likely tried to cover it up right after by all the now retracted or disavowed reporting. Heads will roll, hopefully including Abbott's as well as every elected official on that stage as he delivered a now false narrative before Beto rightly told him he himself was directly to blame for this result due to his unconscionable stance on gun proliferation.

I saw someone else tweet this, but this certainly makes sense based on how raw emotions are running already:

America needs an Emmett Till moment - meaning at least one brave family needs to allow publication of photos showing their blessed child bloodied and maimed beyond recognition. I have no doubt that such publication will have a greater impact on public sentiment than the endless hours of interviews and pontifications we're subjected to after each mass shooting. Show the damage unfiltered and raw; let the public see exactly what these weapons and ordinance actually do to human bodies.

Since nothing positive toward change is being done, we need to be shocked into reality once and for all.

Show the damage unfiltered and raw; let the public see exactly what these weapons and ordinance actually do to human bodies.

I agree, but lets not limit it to the school shootings, every shooting, every day ... thats the only way to make change.

Once people find out how many minorities are killed by guns every weekend, the politicians will finally do something.

Its the only way.

#PublishEveryVictimOfGunViolence

Here is most certainly a hero off duty Border Patrol agent:

Jacob Albarado had just sat down for a haircut when he got a text message from his wife Trisha, a fourth-grade teacher at Robb Elementary.

"There's an active shooter," she said in the message. "Help," and then: "I love you."

Mr. Albarado, an off-duty Border Patrol officer, ran out of the barbershop and sped to the school.

His wife and the children she taught were hiding under desks and behind curtains. Their daughter, a second grader at Robb, was locked in a bathroom, she said.

Once he got to the school, he learned that a tactical team was already forming to enter the wing where the shooter was holed up. So Mr. Albarado quickly made a plan with other officers at the scene: evacuate as many children as possible.

Armed with a shotgun that his barber had lent him, Mr. Albarado said he led his colleagues toward the wing of the school that housed his daughter's classroom.

"I'm looking for my daughter, but I also know what wing she's in," he said, "so I start clearing all the classes in her wing."

Two officers provided cover, guns drawn, he said, and two others guided the children out on the sidewalk. They brought out dozens of kids and their teachers, he said, many of whom emerged screaming.

"They were just all hysterical, of course," he said.

When he finally saw his 8-year-old daughter Jayda, he said he hugged her, but then kept moving the other children along.

"I did what I was trained to do," Mr. Albarado said.

www.nytimes.com

Execute all the cops on the scene for cowardice in the face of the enemy.

Police stood around for 45 minutes. Listening to children getting murder.

Too scared to do anything.

Preventing parents from trying to save their kids.

Texas police. Worthless sacks of shht.

Only take the jobs to harass black and brown people.

Scared of their own shadows.

Fkkking useless cowards.

I have no desire to see footage of this attack.
#62 | POSTED BY MIRANDA7

Yea right.

You love murder porn.

Hey dumbass, we were talking about police.
#61 | POSTED BY LFTHNDTURDS

They should all be fired for gross incompetence and cowardice.

No wonder you're defending them.

They're just like you. Cowards with guns.

Me. I can blame them.
I blame them as well. When it comes to protecting children, cops have access to vast resources: municipal, state, federal and probably even private. These resources can purchase the gear, training, knowledge and personnel to deal with a lone gunman murdering children.

Cops are also a potent lobbying force. They could lobby for real reforms that could have a positive impact but they don't. They and their unions are to busy covering their collective asses.

TPM got the story wrong and pushed a false narrative. Not surprised, TPM is left wing agi-prop. The shooter walked in, unimpeded through an unlocked door. The police did nothing and prevented parents taking action on their own. A off-duty border patrol officer took the shooter down. A good guy with a gun.

A off-duty border patrol officer took the shooter down.

That's new... details?

#108

TPM didn't get anything wrong because Josh Marshall was only commenting on what other's reported. Read the first line of the thread's introduction. The authorities released and continued to release changing narratives and that has been noted throughout this thread whenever new information became available.

As yet, there is still no definitive narrative from the police that explains every aspect of the timeline of events as they're now know to have occurred.

The latest I'm finding is just what I posited from the beginning and others have criticized:

Police Slow To Engage Uvalde Gunman Because They 'Could've Been Shot,' Official Says

Police officers were slow to enter Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, to confront a gunman because "they could've been shot," a spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety said Thursday.

Lt. Chris Olivarez spoke with CNN's Wolf Blitzer to describe the law enforcement response after an 18-year-old gunman entered the school on Tuesday, killing 19 young children and two teachers. Olivarez said officers responded quickly that day amid reports there was a gunman at the school, but waited for a tactical team to fully confront the man ... and kill him.

"Police officers were slow to enter Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, to confront a gunman because "they could've been shot," a spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety said Thursday."

I mean, he's right.

If you think the police are going to risk their lives to save some random kids, you're a ------- idiot.

Here is how police are trained to think about putting themselves in harm's way:
"Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six."

Cops are only here to kneel on the necks of black and brown people.

They were originally created to hunt down runaway slaves.

The entire institution is racist to its core.

Bunch of jackholes.

The origins of modern-day policing can be traced back to the "Slave Patrol." The earliest formal slave patrol was created in the Carolinas in the early 1700s with one mission: to establish a system of terror and squash slave uprisings with the capacity to pursue, apprehend, and return runaway slaves to their owners.

naacp.org

There were 19 officers in the hallway outside the classroom, and they didn't enter the classroom for another 47 minutes:
mobile.twitter.com

The good guy with a gun theory is officially done. If cops are too afraid of AR-15s to rescue children from a mass murderer, then we need to ban them and confiscate every single one.

#108

The latest from Josh Marshall.

We've noted a number of times that early accounts of school shootings are subject to the "fog of war" - chaotic uncertainty about what is happening, factual claims that turn out not to be true and more. That is ending up to be the case in the Uvalde shooting even more than I expected. The initial story was that the shooter was confronted by and exchanged gunfire with a school police officer and then exchanged gunfire with two municipal police officers just after he had entered the school. Body armor was a key part of why the shooter came out on top in those engagements. An account I read early yesterday said that each of those three officers received gun shot wounds - a fact that stands in contrast to the idea that they just ran for cover and didn't do their job.

But now it seems like basically none of that happened.

We still lack definitive accounts. So perhaps the pendulum will swing back in the other direction. But at least as of this moment, it appears that the shooter did not have body armor and that no one confronted him or exchanged gunfire with him as he made his way into the school. You can get a sense of the back and forth and withdrawn claims in this new piece from the Post. The school police officer couldn't get shot because, apparently, he wasn't even there.

Accountability.