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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Friday, August 05, 2022

After NPR sent written questions asking how a technology -- the development of battery that could power a house for decades -- that cost U.S. taxpayers million of dollars ended up in China, the Department of Energy terminated the license with the Chinese company.

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Not much "intellect" in that property!

#1 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2022-08-05 08:42 AM | Reply

"It can power a house". Yeah, for 10 minutes, but lets not let Intro to Physics level knowledge stand in the way of some outrage.

This is a Vandium Redox Flow battery. Density: 15-25 Wh/L

The 37 year old Lithium Polymer Battery Density: 250-670 Wh/L

#2 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2022-08-05 08:53 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Recently priced solar for my house again. $70k install with 3 Tesla Powerwall. Switching to this battery and I'd need at least 30 power walls to do the same thing.

#3 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2022-08-05 08:54 AM | Reply

www.storen.tech

#4 | Posted by TrueBlue at 2022-08-05 09:04 AM | Reply

www.storen.tech

#4 | POSTED BY TRUEBLUE AT 2022-08-05 09:04 AM | FLAG:

lol, hit that link, Ctrl+F and search for "capacity". 1 mention, negatively against LiPo degradation. Not that it's at least 10x more capacity in the same footprint.

#5 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2022-08-05 09:27 AM | Reply

great... I'm guessing some exec somewhere along
the food chain, no longer has to work for a living,
and is spending his time walking beaches and enjoying
sunsets in the surf for selling out his country.

waaaaaay too many greedy people in the world...

#6 | Posted by earthmuse at 2022-08-05 11:23 AM | Reply

... that could power a house for decades ...

Can it actually power a house for decades?

Or will the battery last for decades before it deteriorates, and will be able to power a house for a number of minutes or even a few hours?

The cited article has this...

... The batteries were about the size of a refrigerator, held enough energy to power a house, and could be used for decades. ...

I didn't see anything in the article, at my quick reading, that mentioned how long the battery could power a house, let alone the size of the house or the load the house presents.

#7 | Posted by LampLighter at 2022-08-05 11:27 AM | Reply

It's Vandium Redox Flow, the energy density is known. Take existing whole-house lipo batteries and divide their capacity by at least 10 to get the same mAh out of them.

#8 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2022-08-05 11:54 AM | Reply

#8 You seem to know a lot about this so i have a few questions.

If this tech is so inferior, why are so many American companies trying to get a license to make these?

Regardless of how much the battery can hold at any one time, the article seems to suggest that the battery can be used for decades without degrading, which would still seem to be a potential improvement over batteries that can hold more but break down much faster. Is this off base?

#9 | Posted by JOE at 2022-08-05 12:28 PM | Reply

I didn't see anything in the article, at my quick reading, that mentioned how long the battery could power a house, let alone the size of the house or the load the house presents.
#7 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER

These are flow batteries, so the electrolyte is held in a tank. My guess is that the actual current collector that has sufficient power to handle a typical house is the size of a fridge, then you connect it to a tank with the electrolyte that is sized to hold enough electrolyte to store however much energy you want to store.

And the energy density is not that big of a deal if you are just storing it in a tank (doesn't need to be mobile). What is more important is the cost.

#10 | Posted by gtbritishskull at 2022-08-05 12:43 PM | Reply

If this tech is so inferior, why are so many American companies trying to get a license to make these?

Regardless of how much the battery can hold at any one time, the article seems to suggest that the battery can be used for decades without degrading, which would still seem to be a potential improvement over batteries that can hold more but break down much faster. Is this off base?

#9 | POSTED BY JOE AT 2022-08-05 12:28 PM | FLAG:

Because the article doesn't make a lot of sense? They only quote 1 person from Forever Energy. Forever Energy advertises an integrated Vandium battery solution manufactured in a SE US located plant that they hope to one day build. They have no sales, $11 stock, and less than 10 employees. That's a subsidy farm being incubated.

They're twice the size, hold 10x less energy, and cost 10x more than lithium polymer batteries while lasting not that much longer. A Power Wall has a realistic 15 year lifespan, with 20-25 possible on paper still over 60% capacity. VRF have a realistic lifespan of 20-25 years, with 30 possible on paper at the tradeoff of less degredation.

#11 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2022-08-05 01:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

@#9 ... If this tech is so inferior, why are so many American companies trying to get a license to make these? ...

I'm not saying the tech is so inferior.

I am asking if the tech is suitable for the purpose mentioned, i.e., powering a house.

There may be other [more appropriate?] uses for the tech.

#12 | Posted by LampLighter at 2022-08-05 01:23 PM | Reply

#11 | Posted by sitzkrieg

Admittedly, not an expert on the company or this battery type at all but I rummaged around a bit because I am curious.

From the article, the tech developed by Dept of Energy had a mix that was twice powerful as other Vanadium batteries - so if the known just doubled, that's a really good thing in battery tech. They are claiming more storage in less space than the Tesla system. Just digging around, there are actually quite a few makers out there of this type of storage already. If what the company is advertising on their site is even mostly accurate this is a big deal.

BTW - It says they are in Washington State. That is the NW. I can't find anything on a manufacturing location.

#13 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2022-08-05 02:03 PM | Reply

If what the company is advertising on their site is even mostly accurate this is a big deal.

#13 | POSTED BY GALAXIEPETE AT 2022-08-05 02:03 PM | FLAG:

There's two style of these batteries, but even with twice the density it is still at minimum 5x worse than existing giant scale battery plants. The only country to built any VRF battery at any scale has been China, which is known to subsidize non-sensical glamour projects (not that we don't). LiPo battery plants are doing pretty okay globally, but the money in them is in arbitrage and not on demand storage. As far as strategic implication, it's not favorable to us, our Vandium mines were closed long ago and reclaimed in the 90s. The primary source for Vandium is South African mines.

#14 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2022-08-05 03:12 PM | Reply

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