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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Saturday, November 26, 2022

Rivan and Amazon's adorable electric delivery van--the EDV--is hitting the streets, with the first 1000 of the planned 100,000 slated for production already in the hands of the e-commerce giant's drivers.

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#11
We've already spotted a couple of EDV700s on the road, like this one that senior news editor Joey Capparella found delivering packages in his New York neighborhood.

Rivian says the vans can travel up to 150 miles before needing to be recharged, and the Amazon depots are being equipped with Level 2 charging stations so each of them can be juiced up overnight for emissions-free deliveries the next day.

The EDV has been designed to last for 10 years or 330,000 miles before needing to be replaced, so once they're on your route you can expect to see them for a long time.

#1 | Posted by Corky at 2022-11-26 12:36 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It's a subsidy feedbag
#2 | POSTED BY PUPPET16

There are two choices when it comes to energy: Subsidy or Nationalization.
Only one of those is practical in a capitalist economy.

#3 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-11-26 12:30 PM | Reply

#2 | POSTED BY PUPPET

You're the puppet; I'm not the puppet.

#4 | Posted by Zed at 2022-11-26 12:55 PM | Reply

Rivian says the vans can travel up to 150 miles before needing to be recharged

We won't be seeing those around here... the nearest Amazon depot is about 200 miles away. Probably be good in the cities though.

#6 | Posted by REDIAL at 2022-11-26 02:02 PM | Reply

Zed, he isn't wrong about all of the environmental implications of "green energy." Some might call it an inconvenient truth.

#7 | Posted by Bluewaffles at 2022-11-26 02:06 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Meanwhile optimized IC engines are the best solution."

Wouldn't be happening without a government mandate:

under the EPA's Tier 3 Vehicle Emissions standards passed in 2014, by 2025 all cars sold in America will be PZEVs.
sustainableamerica.org

#9 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-11-26 03:08 PM | Reply

#2
Batteries last three years or less.

LOL!

My Leaf is 4 years old and going strong.
Charging at home is very convenient.
It may pay for itself in 10 years.

ICE cars can't compete.

#10 | Posted by bored at 2022-11-26 04:36 PM | Reply

My Leaf is 4 years old and going strong.
Charging at home is very convenient.
It may pay for itself in 10 years.
ICE cars can't compete.

POSTED BY BORED AT 2022-11-26 04:36 PM | REPLY

That's sure a masculine name for a car. Does it eat hummus and tofu too??

#11 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2022-11-26 04:46 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

That's sure a masculine name for a car.

That's why you put truck nuts on them.

#12 | Posted by REDIAL at 2022-11-26 04:50 PM | Reply

I could get a Leaf since the farthest I ever really have to drive is the airport.

#13 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-11-26 05:32 PM | Reply

So "Laura" is talking about masculine sounding names? Bwahaha.

#14 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2022-11-26 08:55 PM | Reply

STILL the mining and power generation issues stand, though. Zero tailpipe emissions do not imply zero emissions incurred in operation. The power has to be generated somewhere, and the materials have to be mined.

Same goes for combustion engines, low emissions or not. Gasoline doesn't just appear at the pump by magic.

#17 | Posted by REDIAL at 2022-11-27 12:02 AM | Reply

It's more efficient to take to a pump, transfer into a vehicle and burn on board than burn remotely with transmission loss then battery storage losses. EV gain vs hybrid isn't worth the tradeoffs. Popular to subsidize though.

#18 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2022-11-27 07:59 AM | Reply

My Leaf is 4 years old and going strong.
Charging at home is very convenient.
It may pay for itself in 10 years.
ICE cars can't compete.

POSTED BY BORED AT 2022-11-26 04:36 PM | REPLY

That's sure a masculine name for a car. Does it eat hummus and tofu too??

#11 | Posted by LauraMohr

So I guess there's no room in electric cars for consumer taste? The leaf looks like a god awful piece of ----.

But then again, for eco-nazi's, it's always been about their ball(climate change) and wanting EVERYONE to play with it.

#20 | Posted by boaz at 2022-11-27 10:35 AM | Reply

The Leaf looks like every hatchback ever. That format remains a popular niche, just not amongst old men.

#21 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2022-11-27 11:33 AM | Reply

I don't think it's ugly. I just don't like electric vehicles. A gas vehicle you can gas it up and go in about 10 minutes providing you don't have to tinkle.

#22 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2022-11-27 12:28 PM | Reply

Re 22.

Admit it. You just like sniffing gas.

"STILL the mining and power generation issues stand, though."

All forms of energy have "issues".

Name one that doesn't.

Now maybe ask yourself why that is.

#23 | Posted by donnerboy at 2022-11-27 12:39 PM | Reply

Wouldn't be happening without a government mandate

#9 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2022-11-26 03:08 PM | FLAG:

When the Prius came out it had no government support anywhere. US subsidies were 7 years behind the first to market Japanese cars and 5 years behind Gen 2 global release.

"I can say 100 percent that Toyota received absolutely no support " no money, no grants " from the Japanese government for the development of the Prius," Toyota spokesman Paul Nolasco said.

#24 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2022-11-27 12:41 PM | Reply

They can help, but government policies are not strictly necessary for automotive advances to come to market.

#25 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2022-11-27 12:43 PM | Reply

True but leaded gasoline smelt better. Much sweeter than unleaded gasoline.

#26 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2022-11-27 12:50 PM | Reply

Maybe the Japanese government didn't support the development of the Prius but the US and and California sure did. And it was a deciding factor in my personal investment in an EV and I bet it helped drive the whole EV market forward.

#27 | Posted by donnerboy at 2022-11-27 12:52 PM | Reply

They can help, but government policies are not strictly necessary for automotive advances to come to market.
#25 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

Your being a fanboi had blinded you to the big picture.

So let's review why you're wrong: The Arab Oil Embargo, a government policy, gave rise to CAFE, a government policy, which gave rise to automobiles engineered for fuel efficiency, not power and torque efficiency, and allowed Toyota to use cars like the Prius to offset the low mileage of cars like the Tundra.

Thanks for reading and understanding.

#28 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-11-27 03:46 PM | Reply

Would Toyota have invented the Prius anyway? Probably. Most of the world plays a lot more for gas so designing for efficiency isn't at all surprising. But Mazda went the Skyactiv route and others joined the PZEV bandwagon.

Anyway, the big traditional auto makers are quasi-national industries to begin with.

#29 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-11-27 03:58 PM | Reply

Maybe the Japanese government didn't support the development of the Prius but the US and and California sure did.

#27 | POSTED BY DONNERBOY AT 2022-11-27 12:52 PM | FLAG:

No. Toyota received no money from the US nor California to develop the Prius. US hybrid subsidies came 7 years later.

This thread is a bunch of people with zero industry knowledge but absolutely certainty how it works. It's tragic.

#30 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2022-11-27 04:32 PM | Reply

"US hybrid subsidies came 7 years later."

I didn't mean to imply that the US subsidized Toyota. But these subsidies tax breaks and incentives propelled the EV industry forward.

Now there EVs everywhere.

"It's tragic."

It's tragic how you purposely misunderstood or maybe how tragically unclear I was.

But whatever.

My intent was to point out the federal and state tax incentives and subsidies helped propel the EV industry and helped it develop into what it is today.

#31 | Posted by donnerboy at 2022-11-27 08:21 PM | Reply

No, Toyota pricing it between the corolla and camry before subsidies existed is why it got popular.

Tragic is the description of your industry knowledge but it's par for the course from Musk worshippers.

#32 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2022-11-28 06:11 AM | Reply

Hmm, just guessing here, that Puppet 16
either owns a lot of Oil Stocks or
works for an oil company...

Such vitriol, and over Clean Energy!

lol. What a waste of time & life.

#33 | Posted by earthmuse at 2022-11-28 06:36 AM | Reply

Tragic is the description of your industry knowledge but it's par for the course from Musk worshippers.

#32 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

I am not in the " industry". And I don't worship Musk. I wish him luck with his hubris and you too with yours.

My speciality lies elsewhere but that doesn't make me entirely unaware.

It's tragic that you think the Prius and Toyota is the entire EV industry. But whatever.

It's well known that the US with federal incentives and tax breaks and especially California have helped propel green energy and cleaner vehicles into the future and into the success it is today.

#34 | Posted by donnerboy at 2022-11-28 08:29 AM | Reply

#34 you worshipped Musk and wanted to work from him. Don't know when subsidies kicked in for hybrids. Think a $80k ASP battery car had to have subsidies to popularize lipo cars. It's not hubris, I have industry data you can't get. It's my job and you have been a long time fountain of Musk driven fake news.

#36 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2022-11-28 08:43 AM | Reply

But thankfully I get to wind down at the end of next year and never care about the automotive industry again. Greener pastures. Unless I take ford's offer to work on user experiences.

#37 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2022-11-28 08:45 AM | Reply

Tell Ford to not be such cowards when thinking about the user experience of the baby left behind in the car.

The car can easily detect this event and notify the driver. Unlock the doors. Roll down windows. Start the vehicle and turn on the AC. Call OnStar or whatever Ford's version is, etc. etc.

But they won't because of legal liability if those safety measures fail and then it's Ford's fault that there's a cooked baby.

#38 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-11-28 10:34 AM | Reply

"Don't know when subsidies kicked in for hybrids."

2008. en.wikipedia.org

Long enough that the intended effect should have been achieved and the subsidies can wind down.

#39 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-11-28 10:40 AM | Reply

"you worshipped Musk and wanted to work from him. "

Never"worshipped" musk or anyone else for that matter. I respected his ability to revive the EV market practically single handedly. Thought he was a leader even thought he might become Americas "Tony Stark". But he fooled me and so many others who also apparently thought the same thing being as how he became the richest man in the world.

I even "Considered" working at SpaceX for a while until I found out what a hateful uncaring employer he really is. But I have "considered" working for a lot of companies in my time and it's not like I actually ever applied.

"Think a $80k ASP battery car had to have subsidies to popularize lipo cars."

No but thank you for telling me what I think or thought.

What I did think and thought and is what I did say is that federal and state tax (with California leading the way) provided incentives definitely helped get the EV market (and so many green energy companies) become successful and get to where they are today.

#40 | Posted by donnerboy at 2022-11-28 10:53 AM | Reply

"Clean Energy"=grid power minus charger+battery+motor losses"

"Puppetposting"= ignorance +stupidity+hatefulness

Most of power losses are in the grid itself and the transmission lines.

And electric motors are substantially more efficient than internal combustion engines (ICEs).

Electric motors convert over 85 percent of electrical energy into mechanical energy, or motion, compared to less than 40 percent for a gas combustion engine.

Battery technology has improved substantially.

"Gains in the amount of energy they can store have been on the order of five percent per year. That means that the capacity of your current batteries is over 1.5 times what they would have held a decade ago. Lithium-ion batteries have evolved, whether you noticed or not

arstechnica.com

#41 | Posted by donnerboy at 2022-11-28 11:07 AM | Reply

"Electric motors convert over 85 percent of electrical energy into mechanical energy, or motion, compared to less than 40 percent for a gas combustion engine."

Of course, the engine or motor only provides half the energy needed for the vehicle to function. The brakes have to make that energy go away when needed. ICE cars dump that all to heat. Electric cars can recycle some of that energy.

#42 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-11-28 11:11 AM | Reply

#40 | POSTED BY DONNERBOY AT 2022-11-28 10:53 AM | FLAG:

Stop trying to Google your way out of not knowing anything.

The Prius was developed with no subsidies from anybody, it's an internal Toyota project, and after market testing it sold well because it was priced correctly at the right time and was extremely suitable to fleet ops. Subsidies came half a decade later sold as consumer breaks but really to support commercial and state/city government fleet acquisitions. The customer demographic of the Prius don't need the subsidy, they were predominately upper & upper-middle class homeowners.

The actual battery car revolution was in China, taking trash 2 strokes off the street and replacing them with not nearly as bad coal charged, battery powered setups. The car that brought lipo cars to the US was after the one after the Tesla Roaster, the S. A car with an $89k ASP is not helped by subsidies as the buyers are on average in the top 10% of US incomes. Then came the Model 3 switch which cannibalized the high margin lines and was so backlogged it also did not need any subsidies. The top earners that would have bought an S bought the 3 instead. One of the few things true out of Musk is that they didn't actually need the subsidies and they ran out for Tesla early, and they don't get anymore because the batteries aren't union products thanks to the last round of legislation.

I can tell you all about lipos. I own many. I can assemble packs, cylindrical and prismatic. I have had to sit down and digest the research projects on stuff like using waste from leather processing to construct lipo anodes.

Your electric motor gets its power from a battery. The battery gets its power from... ? Except in edge cases in the US, it's a natural gas power plant. Our plants are not good on average and it will be awhile before they catch up. 30%ish thermal efficiency. The best, newest closed cycle turbines are on par with the thermal efficiency of the latest and greatest piston combustion engines. So the 30%ish plant loses to the lines, loses to battery storage losses, then loses 15% to the motor. The logistics of transport and rate of introduction of thermal efficiency increases for onboard power plants greatly favors hybrid powertrains over the next several decades in reality, just not politically.

#43 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2022-11-28 11:26 AM | Reply

"Subsidies came half a decade later"

Specific subsidies applicable to hybrids came later.

But Toyota Motor Corporation has been supported by the government of Japan throughout.

#44 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-11-28 11:35 AM | Reply

Any comments though on the environmental impact of lithium mining, or the pollution profile of power generation? On the lifespan and safety of the batteries?

#5 | POSTED BY PUPPET16

We are still very early into this transition. Just as it took decades for the "horseless buggy" to transition to a serious transcontinental automobile. I seriously doubt if lithium batteries are going to be the final stop.

#45 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2022-11-28 04:26 PM | Reply

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