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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Saturday, December 03, 2022

Finnish PM Sanna Marin has said Europe is "not strong enough" to stand up to Russia's invasion of Ukraine on its own, and has had to rely on US support. During a visit to Australia, the leader of the pending Nato member said Europe's defences must be strengthened.

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The US is by far the largest provider of military assistance to Ukraine.

Luckily for Ukraine Putin's ----------- is pickling away in Mara Pedo.

#1 | Posted by reinheitsgebot at 2022-12-03 11:04 AM | Reply

They've only had 77 years to prepare...

#2 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-12-03 03:07 PM | Reply

Sop

#3 | Posted by fresno500 at 2022-12-03 06:39 PM | Reply

Republicans don't really support NATO any more.

#4 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-12-03 06:43 PM | Reply

Why would anyone not in the MIC? NATO causes wars, it doesn't prevent them. It only exists to manage the problems it itself creates.

Without NATO there would be Peace in our Time.

#5 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2022-12-03 06:56 PM | Reply

Poland and Finland, and several others, would be Russian territory if not for NATO.

"One. More. Time. It's not about NATO"

www.brookings.edu

#6 | Posted by Corky at 2022-12-03 07:20 PM | Reply

"I must be brutally honest with you, Europe isn't strong enough right now,"

This is what Putin knows.
Putin also knew that Brexit would weaken Europe further.

#7 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-12-03 07:32 PM | Reply

"They've only had 77 years to prepare"

So it's official now Liberals are done with their obnoxious and pretentious claims that America should be more like Scandinavian countries?

#8 | Posted by Tor at 2022-12-03 08:00 PM | Reply

I was being sarcastic.

What she is describing is the reason NATO exists.

Finland being not worth anything militarily or economically is not likely to get invaded by Russia (unless Russia is simply passing through on its way to a richer target).

NATO seems to be a line Putin is unwilling to cross. Which again is the entire point of NATO -- to contain the spread of what once called Communism and is now a mafia style crime family that is also running a country.

So, now that the wolf is on the prowl, Finland is convincing itself it's worth the 2% of GDP or whatever to rent space inside the wire.

#9 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-12-03 08:08 PM | Reply

Finland is a fine country filled with some good people but it also was invaded by Russia within the last hundred years and if Putin is trying to reclaim every piece of land that existed at the time of the czars empire Finland would certainly be a country he would want.

#10 | Posted by Tor at 2022-12-03 08:24 PM | Reply

"Hence, the conclusion was that only NATO's article five and its nuclear deterrence could provide Finland with sufficient security.

Outside of NATO's umbrella, the threat facing Finland would not necessarily have been a direct and all-out military confrontation with Russia, but rather a significant weakening of Finland's geopolitical position.

For example, it is possible to imagine a limited Russian military or hybrid threat scenario against Finland in order to absorb Helsinki into Moscow's orbit.

In such a scenario where Finland would not be a member of NATO, Russia could have demanded Finland's capitulation, using the threat of nuclear or military options. Without NATO's article five, there would have been no guarantees of assistance, leaving Finland vulnerable."

www.wilsoncenter.org

#11 | Posted by Corky at 2022-12-03 08:43 PM | Reply

Where do I find findland...

#12 | Posted by South_American at 2022-12-03 10:08 PM | Reply

Don't discount the Fin winter snipers

#13 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2022-12-04 02:58 AM | Reply

Findland?

#14 | Posted by RJSquirrel at 2022-12-04 03:53 AM | Reply

"Without NATO there would be Peace in our Time."

Yeah because there was no NATO in 1938 and the world sure was peaceful. When EFFETEliar has posted the dumbest post of his time on this site he always surprises me with something even dumber.

#15 | Posted by danni at 2022-12-04 10:16 AM | Reply

Putin doesn't want Europe with all of the headaches it would bring. He is just trying to save the Russians in Ukraine's eastern provinces. According to what I've heard. Visit Pravda.ru.

#16 | Posted by wolfdog at 2022-12-04 08:30 PM | Reply

"According to what I've heard."

You're a paid troll, Boris. All you've "heard" is propaganda.

Ukrainians are all Nazis, and Vlad is a perfect physical specimen. Da, comrade?

#17 | Posted by Danforth at 2022-12-04 08:34 PM | Reply

"Putin doesn't want Europe with all of the headaches it would bring. He is just trying to save the Russians in Ukraine's eastern provinces. According to what I've heard. Visit Pravda.ru."

You do realize that the Russians that live there could have moved back to Russia any time they wanted. They were/are in no danger from Ukrainians and Putin doesn't give a crap about them. His original plan was to annex all of Ukraine but thrn Ukraine foght back harder than he ever thought they could so he revised his plans to only annec the Donbas region and he's not even doing well with that. Zelensky is determined to drive the Russian military out of Ukraine and as time goes on it seems more and more likely he will succeed before Putin dies.

#18 | Posted by danni at 2022-12-04 10:59 PM | Reply

Oh they could do it,
they just don't want to
PAY for it...

The American Tax Payers
keep the rest of the
world free.

Not saying this as a protest
against paying taxes, or for
the amount we are taxed (which
is too much for the Middle Class),
but saying it as something to
take pride in.

The American Tax Payers
truly keep the rest of the
world free. You are WELCOME
rest of the world...

#19 | Posted by earthmuse at 2022-12-05 07:03 AM | Reply

Liberals are done with their obnoxious and pretentious claims that America should be more like Scandinavian countries?
#8 | POSTED BY TOR

No. Because it isn't "obnoxious" or "pretentious" to think that people deserve things like healthcare and paid maternity leave. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings.

#20 | Posted by JOE at 2022-12-05 08:28 AM | Reply

"Without NATO there would be Peace in our Time."

#5 | POSTED BY EFFETEPOSER

Having traveled behind the Berlin Wall in 1985 on an official state invitation from the Polish communist government, I can tell you for a fact that what you wrote is one of the most stupid things I have ever read. Just complete nonsense.
The Poles hated the Russians. Told me so over and over again. "Ronald Reagan good! Bomb Russia, bomb Russia!"
They wanted, their own democracy, "not French, not English or American but Polish democracy." The Russian had huge armies surrounding them to keep that from happening. When you cross into East German on a train in those days, you went past 25 miles of Russian tanks and weapons piled onto trains all facing west. I thought to myself this cannot end well or without a war. Well, those same old tanks are now being used to fight the war that was always going to come and NATO kept it from coming for 45 years. People like you that come off as a liberal anti war person yet tend to blame the west for wishing to keep their freedom would never wish to live under the Russian, Iranian, Chinese or Myamar boot and come off as a complete hypocrite in your BS rhetoric. That or you are like everybody else thinks a Russian bot stirring up disinformation suited for the TRumpanzes coming on here. Either way please get on an airplane and go live in one of the countries that you seem to think are just all so innocent in all of this conflict.

#21 | Posted by Wildman62 at 2022-12-05 10:08 AM | Reply

"Without NATO there would be Peace in our Time."

That's basically the same mentality every tyrant has. If one ruler were to take over everything, then we would have peace because nobody would be around who could challenge that ruler. Unfortunately, there are so many underlying things wrong with that and luckily most of the world has learned how that typically plays out, so organizations like NATO exist to ensure it doesn't happen.

"No. Because it isn't "obnoxious" or "pretentious" to think that people deserve things like healthcare and paid maternity leave. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings."

You are absolutely right. But it isn't obnoxious or pretentious to think that people should have to work for the betterment of society before obtaining those things, either. But that doesn't stop you and the rest of the DR Libs from vilifying people who don't have the same opinion as you. In other words, expect the same kind of response from the other side that you give them.

#22 | Posted by humtake at 2022-12-05 12:28 PM | Reply

"Without NATO there would be Peace in our Time."

"Without them ballots there would be no need for a peaceful transfer of power.

There would be no transfer of power." -Trumpy Dumpy (before he fell off the wall)

#23 | Posted by donnerboy at 2022-12-05 12:56 PM | Reply

"Not saying this as a protest against paying taxes, or for the amount we are taxed (which is too much for the Middle Class), but saying it as something to take pride in."

Uh, you do realize that someone in the "middle class" in Europe would pay 2-3 times as much in income taxes as someone in the US, right?

And that's before you factor in a VAT.

#24 | Posted by madbomber at 2022-12-05 02:09 PM | Reply

"No. Because it isn't "obnoxious" or "pretentious" to think that people deserve things like healthcare and paid maternity leave. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings."

Do you think they would be cool with their tax rates doubling in order to get those things?

#25 | Posted by madbomber at 2022-12-05 02:10 PM | Reply

#21

True story. Once of my co-workers is a former F-16 pilot who started flying in the early 1980s. He was stationed at Ramstein Air Base (where we both are now) during that time.

Back then, US service members could travel into East Germany for leisure, no questions asked. You just had to wear your dress uniform.

He also has some interesting stories about skiing in Sarajevo, right before the winter Olympics. And right before the war that followed soon after.

#26 | Posted by madbomber at 2022-12-05 02:13 PM | Reply

#21

True story. Once of my co-workers is a former F-16 pilot who started flying in the early 1980s. He was stationed at Ramstein Air Base (where we both are now) during that time.

Back then, US service members could travel into East Germany for leisure, no questions asked. You just had to wear your dress uniform.

He also has some interesting stories about skiing in Sarajevo, right before the winter Olympics. And right before the war that followed soon after.

#27 | Posted by madbomber at 2022-12-05 02:13 PM | Reply

"Uh, you do realize that someone in the "middle class" in Europe would pay 2-3 times as much in income taxes as someone in the US, right?"

You do realize that someone in the "middle class" in USA would pay about 500-1000 times as much in health care expense as someone in EU, right?

#28 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-12-05 02:35 PM | Reply

"You do realize that someone in the "middle class" in USA would pay about 500-1000 times as much in health care expense as someone in EU, right?"

I'm not saying one is better or worse. I plan on staying out here in Europe for a long time. Probably forever

But I choose this. I don't know that US taxpayers would equate a doubling or tripling of taxes as a good thing, even if it came with no out-of-pocket healthcare expenses.

Again, I'm not saying that either is better or worse. But that's a decision that should be left to voters.

#29 | Posted by madbomber at 2022-12-05 03:25 PM | Reply

"But I choose this."

We don't get to make that choice, here in the Land Of The Free.
Should we?

#30 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-12-05 03:38 PM | Reply

"No. Because it isn't "obnoxious" or "pretentious" to think that people deserve things like healthcare and paid maternity leave. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings."

And how many countries only have the money for those programs because America's paying for military programs?

#31 | Posted by Tor at 2022-12-05 03:38 PM | Reply

"I don't know that US taxpayers would equate a doubling or tripling of taxes as a good thing, even if it came with no out-of-pocket healthcare expenses."

Have you tried asking?

#32 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-12-05 03:38 PM | Reply

"But that's a decision that should be left to voters."

Why should it be left to voters?

Did voters here, or there, choose their existing health care systems?

#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-12-05 03:39 PM | Reply

"And how many countries only have the money for those programs because America's paying for military programs?"

Math doesn't work out that way, Tor.
Health care is more expensive than defense.

People always talk about the trillions we spend on defense. But we spend six times as much on health care. 3% of GDP on Defense, 18% of GDP on Health Care. In other modern countries, it's closer to 2% of GDP on Defense, 10% of GDP on Health Care.

#34 | Posted by snoofy at 2022-12-05 03:41 PM | Reply

Other 1st world NATO countries can afford to spend the same amount of their GDP on defense as we do.

#35 | Posted by Tor at 2022-12-05 03:47 PM | Reply

"We don't get to make that choice, here in the Land Of The Free. Should we?"

You get a say in it...your say is just not popular enough to take hold in the US.

You could also move to a country that has what you're looking for. My guess is that you want all the benefits of living in a "social democracy," you just don't want to pay the taxes required to fund it.

#36 | Posted by madbomber at 2022-12-06 01:27 AM | Reply

"No. Because it isn't "obnoxious" or "pretentious" to think that people deserve things like healthcare and paid maternity leave. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings."

It doesn't hurt my feelings, and it wouldn't matter if it did.

The proof is in the puddin'. So far support for these type efforts comes primarily from the left, but unlike every other nation on the planet, US progressives envision a world where the vast majority of taxpayers retain their incredibly low tax rates while getting all the benefits of living in a high-tax country.

#37 | Posted by madbomber at 2022-12-06 01:37 AM | Reply

"Have you tried asking?"

No one has.

#38 | Posted by madbomber at 2022-12-06 01:37 AM | Reply

"Why should it be left to voters?"

Because they would be the ones impacted.

"Did voters here, or there, choose their existing health care systems?"

Here in the US, pretty much every election cycle.

Hell, Bernie was going to ban on-government provided healthcare outright. Divert all of that money into providing equitable healthcare for every American, from richest to poorest. And you'll get what the government gives you.

#39 | Posted by madbomber at 2022-12-06 01:39 AM | Reply

" Bernie was going to ban on-government provided healthcare outright. "

That's a lie, and I've corrected you before, with links. Please educate yourself and stop spreading bullschitt. theweek.com

#40 | Posted by Danforth at 2022-12-06 03:09 AM | Reply

Do you think they would be cool with their tax rates doubling in order to get those things?
#25 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

You could just take what Americans and their employers already pay for healthcare (far more than anywhere else in the world) and have more than enough to fund quality universal healthcare.

And you don't need to double the income tax to fund a paid parental leave program.

Any other stupid questions?

#41 | Posted by JOE at 2022-12-06 02:43 PM | Reply

"That's a lie"

If it is a lie, it was one that came straight from Bernie's mouth.

"Let us all be very clear about this. If you support Medicare for All, you have to be willing to end the greed of the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries. That means boldly transforming our dysfunctional system by ending the use of private health insurance, except to cover non-essential care like cosmetic surgeries."

"The bottom line is that the Sanders bill that Harris supports would kick about 180 million people off their private insurance policies. Only at that point would people be able to try to seek out "supplemental" coverage for cosmetic surgery, if they can even find such a policy."

www.washingtonexaminer.com

#42 | Posted by madbomber at 2022-12-06 03:04 PM | Reply

From your article:

"But here's the thing: Sanders' Medicare-for-all bill doesn't ban private health insurance. What it does ban is any private health coverage that duplicates the coverage offered by the government. For example, if Sanders Medicare-for-all system covered hospital stays but not dental work, then private insurers would still be free to offer plans that cover dental needs."

So, if it is offered by the government, you take what the government gives you, go find a country where you can get the care you want under the conditions you want, or go without.

This is very different from the vast majority of countries, which allow patients to procure premium or more timely care at their own expense.

"...The insurance part isn't too difficult to understand. People living in Britain can obtain private insurance, and about 10 percent of them do. About one-third of people with private insurance purchase it with their own money, while the rest receive it as a benefit of employment. Many of the big multinationals provide such insurance, either to all their employees or to senior executives. It's considered a plum perk for everyone, and most expats coming to work in the UK consider it an essential benefit.

Private insurance covers care provided outside the tax-funded NHS system. Sometimes, people use it to obtain items that the NHS has chosen not to cover, like medications or devices with low cost-effectiveness ratios (as I described in my previous blog on NICE). But that's unusual. Far more commonly, the insurance is used to purchase services that are freely available in the NHS, such as subspecialty consultation and elective surgery...

...The conflicts play out within the specialists' practices themselves. One London neurologist told me that he might see a patient in consultation for a neurological disorder and offer a follow-up appointment in several months, assuming there is no urgent clinical need. "But if the patient has private insurance, she can see me tomorrow if she'd like."

#43 | Posted by madbomber at 2022-12-06 03:11 PM | Reply

Bernie is still an old skool commie at heart, who believes that the quality of healthcare for the richest patient should be the same as for the poorest. It's not physically or economically possible to provide high-end care to everyone, but in theory you can ban that high-end care so that the richest received the same level of care as the poorest. Furthermore, if doctors are given the option of treating patients based on higher payments, they are going to prioritize those patients, leading to a non-egalitarian outcome.

#44 | Posted by madbomber at 2022-12-06 03:13 PM | Reply

"You could just take what Americans and their employers already pay for healthcare (far more than anywhere else in the world) and have more than enough to fund quality universal healthcare."

I don't think any rational human is against better healthcare. I would think that, if a person with a private plan can get similar or better care at equal or lower cost, they are not going to mind. I wouldn't.

But what we tend to see is that those with private plans would see a decrease in timeliness, comfort, and quality as an unnecessary sacrifice so that someone else can get the same care.

"And you don't need to double the income tax to fund a paid parental leave program."

OK. Fund it through a VAT then?

#45 | Posted by madbomber at 2022-12-06 03:18 PM | Reply

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