Once again, the headline is a lie F.S. 847.012 is not new, it has been on the books for decades . Providing pornography to minors is, and has been a felony in Florida and most likely, 49 other states.

The article seeks to conflate the often misrepresented "Don't Say Gay" bill (which concerns age appropriate curriculum) with -------------------- statutes.. They are not the same thing. The new law has NO criminal penalties, no felony or misdemeanor prosecutions are possible. it is a CIVIL statute.

Should teachers be concerned? Yes, they should, because it has become increasingly common for edgy, progressive authors to include sexually graphic language, particularly in "coming of age" stories targeted at LGBTQ teens. The authors intent may be inclusivity and outreach to kids struggling with their sexuality, but detailed descriptions of sexual activity can easily run afoul of pornography and obscenity laws.

This issue is not new or restricted to Florida. If you think Floridas pornography laws are unreasonable, I suggest you take a look at the laws in your own state.

#12 " One question I have is: Is there room for interpretation, differences of opinion when it comes to these laws being applied to minors and who makes the ultimate judgment call? For example, in the VA case I linked to above, they determined "Lawn Boy" was not pornography, but if a parent disagreed, could they take the case to court where a state court judge could potential overrule the school board's decision? For that matter, could another school district come to a different conclusion?"

Yes, yes and yes. Pornography and obscenity laws nationwide are notoriously vague, and often make reference to nebulous "community standards" Florida is attempting to draw clearer lines, particularly where it concerns Elementary school curriculum. Some here feel it is facist to draw any lines at all. There is room for debate and discussion, but that has to start with being honest about the facts.

#20 There is no law against rainbows in Florida classrooms, and furthermore, the "Don't say Gay" law has no prohibition against saying "gay". It includes specific guidelines about CURRICULUM and CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION. There is also NO CRIMINAL PENALTY, so nobody is going to jail for rainbows, photos of their same sex spouses or other such things.

"Since you're keen to paint teachers as pedophiles let's see all the proof you have. There must be hundreds of cases.

Also, you claim to be black. Should American history erase slavery in order to help white peoples and their feelings?"

#46 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-01-29 03:23 PM | Reply

I'm not at all keen to paint teachers as pedophiles. I have great respect for teachers. Care to point out where I have ever disparaged teachers? Nope you can't.

Of course American history should not erase slavery. Care to show me where the Florida law does that? Nope, you can't, because it doesn't.

Like so many in the media, you have completely reimagined the law in your own head, freaked the eff out about it then vomited it back out as something it is not.

"#20 There is no law against rainbows in Florida classrooms, and furthermore, the "Don't say Gay" law has no prohibition against saying "gay". It includes specific guidelines about CURRICULUM and CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION. There is also NO CRIMINAL PENALTY, so nobody is going to jail for rainbows, photos of their same sex spouses or other such things.

#51 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2023-01-29 03:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

Florida County Bans Rainbows In Classroom After Don't Say Gay' Law Takes Effect

upolitics.com"

Once again, you come up with a BS headline. The alleged "rainbow ban" in Orange county is nothing more than conclusions drawn by reactionary teachers and media after a meeting with reactionist school board officials in one of the BLUEEST counties in Florida. It is doubtful there was a single Republican in the room to "ban" anything. There is no written ban, no explicit verbal ban and nothing in the state Law that would support a ban.

Check back with me when somebody actually gets fired for a rainbow in the classroom. It won't happen.

I'm not going to bother about reading about whats going on in Ohio, that is Ohio's problem, but I'll bet you have misrepresented that as well.

"The only thing about the law I don't like is that it's a third degree felony."

It isn't. There are no criminal penalties for the "Don't say Gay" law. The third degree felony applies only to providing pornography to minors, and that law has been on the books since long before Florida turned red.

"Because as Tao explained in #14 these laws DeSantis is instituting are meant to, and do, silence through intimidation.

#70 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2023-01-29 04:19 PM | Reply | Flag: "

I see your point, but I don't buy that Liberal teachers are intimidated. Unions are powerful, and know the strength of activism. Nobody is going to be fired for a rainbow, but several have already very publicly resigned citing alleged "fear". It shouldn't be hard for the unions to engage an activist teacher (especially one who is planning to quit over this anyway) to test the waters, push the envelope and become a victim of this law....but they won't because they already know rainbows are a non issue. At this point, they are milking it for all it is worth as an wedge issue. They have no need to "test the waters" or try to effect change when they are getting so much mileage out of simply lying about what they law does, and does not prohibit.

For Liberals this isn't about kids, or free speech or LGBTQ issues in Florida or anywhere else. It is about stopping Desantis from becoming President.

"For Conservatives, this isn't about kids. It's about control.

They created a nonexistent issue and passed laws to eliminate freedom based on their lies.

#84 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-01-29 04:41 PM | Reply | Flag: "

I'll agree with you on that. In reality, it is a (relatively) non-extistant problem, but the Conservative constituency doesn't know that. For Conservative Politicians, this is about virtue signalling, convincing their constituency that they are doing something about this "problem"

Now you do how this is about Liberals (all over the country) being concerned about kids (in Florida).....because I'm just not seeing that. It's about stopping Desantis, period.

"What about non-liberal teachers? You act like every teacher in the state of Florida who might want to put a rainbow on the bulleting board or a photo of their same sex partner on their desk for that matter are liberals. I don't think that is the case. Many public school teachers in Florida are likely to be conservatives, but that doesn't automatically mean they are all anti-gay or don't want to teach tolerance or don't recognize that systemic racism exists.

#90 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2023-01-29 04:57 PM | Reply | Flag:"

You are absolutely, right, thank you for that. It is so easy for some here to assume that anyone who is conservative is also anti-gay. I have many close friends and family members who are gay, and some of them are conservative. In particular, my very liberal cousin and her wife fully in support the Florida "Dont Say Gay" law which doesnt really say "Dont say Gay". They don't want ANY teacher providing classroom instruction to their elementary aged children about same sex marriage or gender identity. That issue is very personal to them and they want to control that dialogue. Rainbows in the classrooms, photos of same sex spouses, nobody has a problem with that. The law addresses CURRICULUM and CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION.

"The third degree felony applies only to providing pornography to minors"

Nope.

"The statute 847.012 says distribution of pornography is punishable as a third-degree felony, but it also covers age-appropriate classroom material, which for 3rd grade and younger also forbids subjects of racial issues and sexual orientation.

"forbids subjects of racial issues and sexual orientation."

#91 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-01-29 04:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

Nope, you are wrong again. Look at the law, not the article (which is inaccurate --------)

Yes, that is the relevant pornography statute, originally enacted in 1967, as your post was directed to me, what is the point you are making?

My post #104 was directed to Lamplighter. I don't normally respond (intentionally) to Snoofy, but I will complete the thought. Florida schools are NOT removing rainbow flags from their classrooms. The law covers CURRICULUM and CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION. Rainbow flags and pictures of spouses are NOT CURRICULUM or CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION. If a kid asks "who is that" and the teacher says, "My wife", there is no violation of the law. If the kids want to pepper the teacher with a barrage of personal questions, the teacher should answer in the same manner that any teacher who has normal boundaries separating their personal life from professional life would answer. If the teacher decides to turn it into a lesson plan for 2nd graders, and discuss same sex marriage, with specific descriptions of how they express their love in the bedroom, then you have a problem. That is the sort of thing the law covers. Not flags and family photos.

Can you please cite where you got the idea that I am terrfiied of that book? Never even heard of it. Spreading lies as usual "TRUTH" hurts, Queen of the straw man argument. I don't usually respond to you either, but WTH.

Just to take a breath for a moment....I am not fully in support of the "Don't Say Gay" law. It has many flaws. The reason I jump into arguments like this is that they usually begin on a false premise, as this one has, from the beginning of the thread with a headline that is not even remotely true. I am frequently accused of being a "bothsideser" a label I wear proudly, because seeing both sides is the only way to effect change and make a difference in the world. What I see here so often are blatant misrepresentations and lies on the part of the media and posters here. That is where I jump in. There is no way to achieve common ground when our arguments are based on lies. My posts generally are intended to to dispel these misrepresentations, not to take the conservative side. Of course in this very homogenously leftist space, I am scapegoated and attacked as a despised conservative, and y'all let the hatred fly towards me. There isn't miuch point in me taking the Liberal side of anything, because y'all have that covered. What you don't realize is that we have far more in common than you realize.

I speak from personal experience, having family members who are teachers in one of the cited counties. There are still rainbows in Florida classrooms.

Let me reiterate. The law is very clear and does not require the removal of rainbows from classrooms. If teachers are being forced to remove rainbows, (and I personally don't believe they are) it is not because of the new state law. School districts in Florida are COMPLETELY controlled by Liberal teachers unions.

The article you cite is six months old. If in fact teachers were/actually required to remove rainbows from classrooms, some enterprising attorney would have filed suit already. They have not.

"#112

The problem is that pornography laws are so broad that they very well could be used to arrest someone because the police didn't like what they said or taught. The fact that the case would eventually be tossed out is immaterial to people who risk arrest by it."

Yes, but that is not new, or restricted to Florida.

The bigger question, is why does anyone need to dance so close to the edge of the pornography laws? Why can't teachers teach kids academic subjects and leave very personal discussions of sexuality and gender identity to parents?

The same people who lament that conservatives are labeling all teachers as pedophiles and groomers are labeling all conservative parents as bigots and homophobes. The fact remains that parents have the right to raise their minor children as they see fit, and to control their children's exposure and education about matters as deeply personal as their individual sexuality. It is not the mandate (or right) of public school teachers to insert themselves into children's lives to save them from their parents' influence.

Certainly, I am in favor of children being exposed to the diverse world of gender identity and sexuality, but I also believe it is the parent's decision to determine when and how that exposure will take place. You folks don't trust conservative parents to do that effectively. Frankly, you don't believe that parents love, and know their children well enough to support and protect their child better than a 24 year old teacher with hundreds of students can. In some cases you may be correct, but how dare you make that assumption of all parents. That is really what this is about, the assumption that the state (teachers) can raise children better than their parents can. I think parents should win that standoff.

"You never heard of it? Why do people lie so poorly? I mean less than 4 hours ago you were using it as an example of the end of civilization as we know it."

I didn't click on your link, which HAD A DIFFERENT TITLE THAN THE BOOK. That book may have been published in German, but it is also published in English and the author has many works which appear in American schools, includng summer reading lists.

And I did NOT say anything about the end of civilization, or anything similar to that. You are so full of ---- it just oozes out of you.

and to both SNoofy and Truth,

I am not going down your endless rabbit holes where you lie about what I said and then expect me to respond. I'm done with you. Save your efforts for someone who doesn't know your game.

Always glad to engage with anyone interested in grown up, honest discourse.

How do you make the leap from your admitted knowledge of only one county to "School districts in Florida"?

That's quite an extrapolation, don't you think?

#122 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-01-29 07:21 PM | Reply | Flag:
Perhaps it is, but I have more than a dozen teachers in my family spread across the country. I was also a PTA president. I challenge you to find a single Republican candidate that has ever been supported by a teachers union. Administrators do not become administrators without support of the teachers union. Find a teacher, any teacher and ask him/her about what I just said and report back with your findings. Liberals control public education nearly everywhere in Florida. It is a fact.

because I just now clicked on the link you stupid ----, and realized it is the same book I linked (but did not claim was the end of civilization).

Now post some excerpts and see if the moderators take down the content. Better yet, read it to your 4 year old and see how she/he reacts to it.

I'm quitting for the night, but I want to share something here. This thread took me down a journey looking at books written by the author Dagmar Geisler. She is the one who wrote the book "My Body is Growing". This book included content that was not only inappropriate for her targeted age group(4-8 year olds) but also potentially dangerous, as it could encourage small children to mimic sexual behavior with their peers or with adults. IMO it is absolutely a book that could be easily used by a predator to groom a young child. I'm not sure at what age this book would be appropriate, but clearly not 4 year olds.

That being said, Ms. Geisler has many other books about difficult subjects that are very very good. In particular, the below linked book is the best book I have ever seen to teach young children ownership of their bodies, and empower them to say "no" to unwanted touch. As a person who has investigated many sex crimes against children, this is a subject that is important to me. I cringe whenever a parent tells a child "Give Uncle Ned a hug", or "Be Nice to Mr. Jones". Children should never be encouraged or expected to allow anyone to make them uncomfortable by touching them.

So while I am glad that this author has many GOOD books, I am VERY disappointed in her for publishing "My Growing Body", particularly because parents who appreciate her good work may inadvertantly give the bad one to their child. Here is the good one:

Have at it. Would you want this excerpt read to your child's kindergarten class? Maybe afterwards they could turn it into a play.

It says right on the cover, that the book is for 4-8 year olds. At some age this content could be considered appropriate, but 4 years old ain't it.

I think most people would agree with that. I certainly do, but I guess where we differ is that I imagine most teachers would respond by discussing same sex marriage in very broad terms that don't include "specific descriptions of how they express their love in the bedroom". In fact, I imagine most teachers wouldn't mention the bedroom in their descriptions at all.

#145 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2023-01-29 08:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

No, we don't disagree on that point, I agree that MOST teachers would limit that discussion to broad terms and the law allows them to do that. What the law does not allow them to do is turn it into an unauthorized lesson plan. Remember, the law specifically refers to CURRICULUM and CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION.

MOST parents will talk to their kids about sexuality. MOST parents LOVE their children, would sooner DIE than see their children hurt and will support their kids in their gender identification journey, even if they are conservative, religious wackos.

Laws aren't written to cover "MOST" people. They are written to cover the exceptions. Teachers who groom students, or even just do a piss poor job of guiding them on their journey are the exception, not the rule. But the same could be said for parents. If I am giving the benefit of the doubt to the person who has the best interest of the child at heart, I'm going to side with the parent, every single time, the mother who gave birth to the child, stayed up by their bedside when they were sick, held them when they cried. She is inherantly better equipped to decide what is best for the child than the "cool" teacher who may have graduated from college 2 years prior and hasn't yet figured out his/her/their own sexuality. Trust parents. Their are safeguards in the statute to help kids who show indications of abuse or are in need of intervention. In absence of these sorts of signs, trust parents.

religious, or

Two of my kids were art/theater kids (in the Bible Belt). They both had a lot of gay friends, from god fearing Southern Baptist families. In each case it was a journey for the family, but love conquers all. While some had a little difficulty coming to terms with it (particularly the dads) there was no shunning or conversion therapy. In each case the family came together and supported the child. In one case the kid was surprised by this acceptance. He had been conditioned (by the media and his peers) to believe his family would reject him because of their religious beliefs, and when they didn't, he wished he hadn't waited so long. The preconceived false narrative that all conservatives are homophobic bigots is also damaging.

Along the same lines, I have another gay friend (in her 50's) who still has not come out to her elderly mother. We have all have encouraged her to do so, and it wears on her long time partner who must pretend to be her "roomate". Mom is frail and she doesn't think she could handle the news. Personally I think her mother already knows (virtually everybody else does). She is old, not stupid. We are all tempted to "let it slip" and see how she reacts, but ultimately it is her decision to come out (or her mother's decision to come out and tell her she already knows). My friend and her partner are very happy and it is sad that she and her mother can't share this.

I doubt it was all the media and his peers' fault that the kid feared his parents reaction. The parents obviously didn't convey to their child that they were tolerant of a gay lifestyle. If they had, the kid would have known the he had nothing to fear when he came out to them.

#170 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2023-01-29 09:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

I agree. I know the parents. I don't think they ever conveyed NON support, but he never showed any indicators, and it just never dawned on them to talk about it, so the only input he was getting was expectations set by others outside his family group. On the other hand, my son showed signs from a very early age that he might be gay, so I always tried to keep a dialogue open. Turns out he isn't gay, but I don't think I was really sure until he got married.

"The problem I have with that sample is that I do not know how representative it is of those who vote.

When the thread is about how the state of Florida should behave, should a coupe of "kids" be an appropriate way to determine the policy of the state of Florida?

#169 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-01-29 09:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

Absolutely not. Just my own anecdotes. To answer your question, the policy of the state of Florida should be determined by the voters of the State of Florida, don't you think?

"I don't think they ever conveyed NON support, but he never showed any indicators, and it just never dawned on them to talk about it, so the only input he was getting was expectations set by others outside his family group."

But don't you think their reactions to gay friends or other family members, or gay co-workers, neighbors or celebrities etc. would have given him a clue with regard to their level of tolerance?

#174 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2023-01-29 09:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yes absolutely. I can't say for certain how those conversations went. True Christians are kind to others, regardless of sexual orientation. Have you ever heard the expression "Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin?". My very Christian inlaw was very kind and would not tolerate a single disparaging word about another person spoken in her presence. Then she got dementia and all the ugly spilled out of her over the next 2 years, LOL.

But don't you think that being barraged with media reports suggesting that all Christians are homophobic may have given him a clue as to what to expect from his church community? Past a certain age kids don't listen to their parents much anymore anyway, they are more succespitble to what their friends tell them.

As to the media, yes, I mean all of it. Twitter, Facebook, Fox, CNN. I hate them all with equal fervor. The media (and social media) collectively are destroying the fabric of society. Truth doesn't matter anymore. Clicks are all that matter.

Catching up,
"Hundreds of students? What county/state in this country assigns any teacher hundreds of students to teach on the public school level (on a college level perhaps, although I doubt a 24 year old grad student would be assigned such a class load unless they were being a TA assisting a full professor)?

#141 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2023-01-29 08:17 PM | Reply | Flag: "

I was referring to Middle or High School teachers. In Florida they teach 7 or 8 separate classes, that is hundreds of different students each semester.

#178 Wait, what, are you one of those "The Election was Stolen" truthers?

"Teachers are the #1 source of molestation

#188 | Posted by stoneher at 2023-01-29 10:20 PM | Reply | Flag: "

No they aren't, it's Stepfather/Mom's boyfriend, followed closely by Uncles, but those never make the news, because naming the suspect would expose the identity of the child victim.

Gal,
One of the reasons that book struck a chord with me is because of a truly heartbreaking case I worked many years ago. It involved a little girl who was molested by an uncle. The grooming was gradual and he never touched her against her will or caused her physical pain. As difficult as it is for me to type these words....she enjoyed it, it felt good to her. That is not that unusual. I don't want to be graphic, but most of the time molestation of young kids does not involve penetration, and some abusers are quite gentle. It went on for years until one day another relative walked in on them. The police were called, the uncle was arrested and by the time I arrived she was truly traumatized. Not by what her uncle had done, but by the yelling, the screaming, the adult conversations, the arrest of her beloved uncle and the fear of being removed from her neglectful mothers care. Suddenly she was realizing that their "secret love" was very wrong, but instead of blaming the uncle that she adored, she internalized that it was SHE who had done something very bad and shameful, and felt responsible for his arrest (because he had warned her repeatedly that if anyone found out they would take her away from him). My involvement was limited to evidence collection, so I didn't get to follow the case further, but it stuck with me for a long time. In the eyes of this child, the abuse was love and ending it left her alone and terrified. I wondered how she would heal and work through the emotions of that, and grow up to have healthy relationships.

So when the book goes into detail and talks about a variety of sexual acts and how good they feel, I thought about that case and how easy it would be for a groomer to use that book to convince a young child that sexual activity with an adult (as long as is consensual) is perfectly normal and feels good. I'm not sure what the right answer is, as far as how to teach kids healthy attitudes about sexuality, and when to introduce these concepts, but I'm not sure teaching young children this level of detail and emphasizing how good it feels is a great idea. We had "Health" class in 5th grade, and learned all about reproduction. We really didn't make mcuh of a connection because we didn't know much about our own parts, let alone the opposite sex. There were lots of giggles, and "ew gross" remarks, We wondered why anyone would "do it". There was no discussion of pleasure, and I don't think there was a reason to have one at that age. Maybe my case with the little girl proves that conversation is needed, but then how to you tell kids about how much fun it is without encouraging them to try it?

"Throughout this evening I have engaged in a conversation with you, a conversation that has helped me to understand some things.

Yet now you seem to throw the "election was stolen" appellation at me for no reason other than I have asked about the GOP registering more than 100 Florida voters as Republicans without their consent.

Why have you become so defensive regarding a reported issue?

#206 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-01-29 11:00 PM | Reply | Flag:"

I have appreciated and enjoyed our conversation. I was joking about the stolen election. It does give me a chuckle when folks on the left bring up election fraud claims, while simultaneously denying the existance of election fraud, but I don't recall your opinions on that so not suggestig you were doing that. To respond, I do believe that voter registration fraud, gerrymandering and other improprieties occur throughout the country, though not in numbers large enough to swing elections. The jury is out on which side is worse, so I'd call it a wash, and won't engage in an argument about it. Plenty of allegations to go around.

Also, since I am on a roll.. with a trip down memory lane...another case that comes to mind involved a perpetrator who molested multiple children who were not identified publicly. His conviction placed his pension in jeopardy. and I testified before the pension organization on his behalf, which generated outrage against me, since people often wrongly assume the victims were strangers (sexual abuse victims are nearly always family). What people didn't realize is he was the only income in the household, therefore, denying him his pension only took the money away from them. It took a toll on me, but I'm glad I did that. He didn't live very long in prison so those kids got all the money.

#216 Assuming we are talking about the same case, it was not election officials or GOP reps who changed voter registrations, it was a group of door to door canvassers from a private third party company hired by the republican Party. There have been many problems in the past with canvassers from both sides. Remember ACORN? This is an example of why harvesting (of ballots or voter registration forms) is a bad idea. These companies often pay bonuses or bounties based on the number of forms collected, which incentivizes this type of fraud.

Gal, I didnt read the My Growing Body book or watch the video review, I just read the excerpt. I'm not sure any nuances can justify that content for 4 year olds, but it is so ironic that it references sexual abuse by an uncle. Maybe the one good thing that could come out of it would be in a therapeutic setting for a girl like my victim, who has already had her innocence stolen and must pick up the pieces and sort out the complex emotions she was left with. That was a long time ago, and I don't know where she is now, but I hope she had something like that to help her. Thank you for sharing your experience and validating mine.