Artemovsk has fallen into Russian control.

Prighozin announced the capture of the city today.

I thought the UkroNazis were winning on that front?

My bad,the propaganda turned out to be BS.

Just like everything the Ukrainian's say.

A Win is a Win.

They killed off tens of thousands of UkroNazi soldiers.

Artemovsk is the lynchpin to the Donbass.

Where's that Awesome counteroffensive we've been hearing so much about?

How long till the Russians run out of missiles?

I thought that it was any time now.

He looks like a strip club manager.

Sleazy.

Just a grift'n Fool.

Yeah right. This guy has done more to facilitate oligarch takeover of the economy in Ukraine than anyone else.

He's worth about a billion dollars,rules by Decree,has outlawed most opposition political parties. He has muzzled the press and private citizens.

Corruption is rampant.

Labor rights have gone backward,all to give Western companies, cheap easy access.

Russia invading is probably the best thing that ever happened to Zelinsky personally.

His popularity before the war was in the commode.

Now he's a "Hero".

By that standard Putin is just has much of a "Hero".

That's a pretty low bar if you ask me.

Dude, I'm not a right wing guy.

I'm a lefty.

The real left,the left that doesn't love effing Nazis.

Maybe you should understand what is going on?

Zelinsky is a right wing type in Ukraine. He doesn't care about labor rights.

He doesn't care about human rights.

He's a puppet of Oligarchs and has only his own financial and physical well being in mind.

He was elected on an antiwar, stop the killing in the Donbass, platform.

Once elected he tried initially to live up to that but the Neo Nazis threatened him and he caved to their demands.

Now he's just another Authoritarian getting thousands of his people killed for nothing more than the chance to cash in big on Graft.

War brings out the worst in people.

Zelinsky is no less Authoritarian than Putin.

I'm a non interventionist.

Ukraine and it's problems are not our concern. Russia was provoked into invading by Ukraine and NATO.

Ukraine NEVER Would have beens so confrontational and outright murderous with the rebels in The Donbass if NATO had not been inciting them with promises of protection and membership.

For that matter there never would have been a rebellion in the East if the Ukrainian political system had been left alone.

The violent coup in 2014 had consequences,far worse than were foreseen at the time.

This whole thing is just a proxy way of damaging Russia.

Ukraine was an afterthought.

Zelinsky is an opportunist.

#33 Putin was an idiot for invading the whole country.

He should have lodged human rights complaints against Ukraine with the UN security counsel. And documented ongoing abuses.

Ukraine and NATO were being provocative. They could have implemented The Minsk accords.

They could have stopping shelling the Donbass as the Russians built up on their borders. They could have had negotiations over the status of the breakaway regions.

They did the opposite of all of these things.

It's like they were hurtling blindly into war. NATO War games near the Russian border, inflammatory rhetoric coming from the Baltics and other NATO members. The whole lead up to war was clearly Not aimed at defusing tensions or finding common ground.

Then Biden started saying he KNEW the Russians were planning to attack.

Gee,how'd he "know" that?

He knew because that was what they were inciting all along.

You got anything but dumb retorts? Explain where my reasoning is wrong,if you can?

Why were the Minsk accords ignored? Why didn't Ukraine stop shelling their own people? Why was no effort made to defuse the obvious tensions leading up to war?

You got anything on that besides dumb wisecracks? Even assuming the whole UkroNazi thing is BS,the Ukrainian actions leading up to war make little sense.

They were obviously not interested in anything but retaking the Donbass at any cost.

Preventing war wasn't their main priority apparently.

So you're telling me that the Russians were building up and they didn't want to have talks when the Russians wanted to?

How dumb is that? Would unsuccessful talks have been worse?

At the very least you're looking at Diplomatic malpractice and consummate stupidity.

Talking is better than 300,000 deaths.

Or is it?

It's not like Americans are getting killed or anything.

Ukrainian lives don't count?

Not when there are peer adversaries to be weakened.

One thing I'm noticing, nobody is attacking my arguments on the merits of lack thereof.

They are attacking ME personally for not being in lockstep with the prevailing dogma about Russia.

Counter my arguments on point,if you can.

Leave the personal invective out of it.

Otherwise it just looks weak,like you've got nothing else.

Do you have any rational responses besides abuse?

You're ignoring the elephant in the room of continuous NATO expansion and provocation. The Russians warned repeatedly that Ukraine being weaponized against them was unacceptable and would lead to war. They weren't coy about it.

The civil war in Ukraine was a prelude to wider war. It should have motivated the Western allies to defuse an obviously dangerous development. Instead of that they doubled down on the very things that were provoking the Russians.

Dialogue was almost non-existent and what little there was, was arrogant posturing and deflection. Ukraine should have declared itself Neutral like the Austrians did after WW2.

This would have given everyone breathing room. But no,they had to double down on the Russia hate which lead directly to civil war in 2014.

Russia made a huge strategic mistake by invading. They should have been more careful. Propping up the breakaway regions and reinforcing their lines from within to prevent the Ukrainian militias from breaking through should have the most they did. Not outright invasion.

Your talking points are equally tiresome. Just endless repetitions about the innocence of the Ukrainians. They were slaughtering their own people.

If Minsk had been accepted in fact and not just in form,and the Russians had invaded anyway you would be correct. But that's not what happened, They dissembled, they bought time by pretending to approve Minsk when they had no intention of ever abiding by it.

The human rights violations in Ukraine pre invasion are documented. The Russians played this all wrong but they have a case.

Yer up.

NATO chooses to invite members, or not.

Russia asked to join. They were refused.

Because NATO is an anti Russian alliance.

It is exists solely to contain Russia. It has no other purpose.

Ukraine and NATO had to know that pushing Ukrainian membership would lead to war,sooner or later. It's not about right or wrong, it's just the way it is. The Russians have been crystal clear about that since 2007.

Ukraine killing Russians in the Donbass was causing tensions, it's not really too hard to figure that out.

If they were prepared to accept the consequences, the Ukrainians were just doing their own thing,as horrible as it was. The consequences were shooting war.

The Russians made their position very clear. Unlike the West, They didn't lie about their intentions.

The West was perfectly happy with provoking Russia. They knew Ukraine was not a member of NATO. They knew that when it came to the wire,they didn't have to actually put soldiers on the line. That would be Ukrainian people dying only.

The West got to test advanced weapons systems against Russia,with no loss of Western lives.

I long ago concluded that this was their real intention.

Give the Ukrainian people the false belief that NATO membership was just around the corner,coming soon.

Then cynically feed the resulting war with modern western weapons to fight proxy war with Russia. The best part is Russia stupidly started the war themselves, you can't make this up. It's evil off the charts.

Knowingly provoke a shooting war by tricking Ukraine into believing they would get membership into an alliance that they would no more be accepted by than Russia was. Certainly not in the short term.

Both Ukraine and Russia got played. Ukraine worst of all.

Lame answer.

NATO is absolutely evil here.

They fomented war for their own ends. The Ukrainian's are just dupes and bullet catchers.

The Russians were a known quantity, they used the knowledge of what would push their buttons to get them to act out aggressively.

Then they ramp up the propaganda about how "unprovoked" the Russians were.

It's Sick. The Russians are wrong, NATO is absolutely wrong, in that they used the aspirations of trusting people to lead them to war.

Knowing all along they would just watch and use their torment for their own ends.

Putin is a cruel and unjust man.

NATO is worse.

They used peoples idealism for base and destructive purposes knowing what would happen.

But NATO KNEW IT WOULD HAPPEN. They are more culpable because they used the knowledge they had to weaponize the Ukraine against Russia. Causing hundreds of thousands of deaths.

It's cynical,Depraved even.

Best part. They get to look so pure and unsullied by venial motives.

Too bad for them the entire global south saw the BS for what it was.

They don't support Russia, but they know the West is playing everyone else against each other for their own sick reasons.

They've seen the whole colonial enterprise for what it is.

The West believes their own --------.

Putin saw war as inevitable so he chose the time himself. Was he wrong?

Kind of like we claimed with Iraq but with far more justification.

Bush lied thousands died.

Putin isn't morally correct. Invading was wrong.

Was knowingly instigating a war between two parties for their own reasons less evil?

My moral compass says No.

NATO is a malign force in the world.

Russia is just paranoid. Not the same by a long shot.

Should Bush be in prison?

His actions were far more Evil than Putin's have been.

Aggressive war is always wrong, but Putin didn't lie. Russia is being encircled and Ukraine is being turned against them.

Bush LIED HIS ASS OFF. More people died in Iraq than have in Ukraine to date.

Why is he still a trusted elder statesman?

America learns Nothing from it's mistakes.

Or Crimes.

We have NO MORAL CREDIBILITY AT ALL.

That's why the sanctions on Russia have failed so miserably.

That's why Ukraine will lose.

No Credibility.

I'm a Devil's advocate not an apologist.

Putin is far more justified here than any of our or NATO's wars of choice including both Vietnam and Korea.

It makes a difference when half the world won't back your play because they know from history and personal experience that you're a bigger liar and criminal than the Russians are.

Duh.

Your ability to compartmentalize is pathological.

America has no credibility outside of Europe and east Asia.

The rest of the world knows better. Even Europe knows better but the elites are still holding out because of racial ties. It's all kind of colonial settler in origin. Russia is outside that tradition.

They had no colonies. They mostly were one.

Nobody is as Obtuse as you two are playing.

Of course Russia is responsible for it's invasion. I never said it wasn't.

But you still don't acknowledge that American crimes have totally compromised it as a moral leader.

Why the hell should any other country get on board with our "rules based order" when the rules are just arbitrary and self serving? When American crimes are worse than Russia's.

Is that relevant?

Especially when the sanctions are failing because of it.

Do you get my point now?

Do you see that American crimes are making Putin's success with no accountability more likely? Also the bad example gave Putin belief in his ability to succeed.

He's not going to lose or be tried as a criminal. His aggression will stand.

Our own impunity has made that far more likely. It's undermined the entire system of global justice.

Hypocrites make poor examples of principled rectitude.

Mostly they look foolish and are not considered trustworthy.

Am I wrong? Tell me why?

I'm not apologizing for Putin. I'm just not in favor of getting involved.

Ukraine chose to persecute their own people. They got clobbered for it.

NATO sided with the ethnic cleansers.

I'm not down with that.

But he won't... Do you know why?

Because nobody has jurisdiction over him.

Only military force will bring him to heel.

But NATO is not going to help with that and Ukraine is too weak even with assistance to do it themselves.

So they will Eat It. Not Putin.

And NATO encouraged the whole thing they won't see through.

Just like Iraq ate it and Bush had no consequences for his evil.

It's just not American Exceptionalism when Russia does it.

So their evil is worse by definition.

Americans make Mistakes, but their hearts are always Pure even when starving children.

Or bombing non combatants, or droning weddings.

Or attacking countries for Whims justified by LIES.

True.

But Putin is No Hitler.

Putin's motives are different.

Bush's were different yet again.

Would you countenance Any of them as a moral leader?

That's my point,not whattaboutism.

I have yet to see you even comprehend that.

Or maybe you just Pretend not to.

Of course it's His war.

I never said it wasn't.

I'm not justifying the criminal invasion of Ukraine.

I'm saying America claiming moral Superiority is like Hitler doing so. It's laughable, and you're playing stupid to not cede the point.

Putin will either win his war and nothing will ever happen to him for waging it like Bush,or he will lose and pay dearly,like Hitler.

My point is force is the only real decider,not right or wrong.

War itself is the problem.

That's why NATO pushing this is so evil. They knew they would never get directly involved. The massive aid is guilt and blood money.

If Ukraine had declared neutrality and not pushed the NATO expansion they probably would be at peace now.

NATO caused this. Putin is ultimately to blame for attacking but if NATO had held back he probably wouldn't have.

They used the Ukrainian aspirations to set them up for war. It's like a pimp or a Ho,who's worse,the Ho who needed cash and was guided into it or the pimp who exploited her needs to make bank.

NATO is a war pimp.

Dying how?

Is America dying?

We're losing influence more all the time.

Our political system is collapsing into armed factions.

No unity at all. War is our only claim to greatness.

Now we don't even excel at that.

That's why the military is so massively overfunded.

#107 The Warsaw pact dissolved after the Soviet Union disbanded. There was no longer any reason for it to exist.

NATO should have done the same thing, instead it's just expanding and provoking wars and providing markets for Western arms.

It's a dinosaur,but far more dangerous than any dinosaur ever was.

Now they want to take NATO to Asia too. I guess we need a war with China.

As if a European war wasn't enough.

America needs therapy,and a ban on military spending.

Why does America get veto power over the economic systems and associations of other nations?

Why is Cuba embargoed?

Why is Venezuela sanctioned?

Why is an Apartheid Israel propped up and funded?

NATO is just Imperialism codified. It's a bullying force in the world.

#123 Proof of that assertion? Why didn't Putin start the war when Trump was in office?

Why wait until Biden was president? That doesn't gibe with your scenario.

Maybe expansion wasn't the motive for the invasion? Just a thought.

Maybe the killing in the Donbass and the Ukrainian civil rights violations were more to the point? Ya,think?

Or maybe the imminent expansion of NATO to their doorstep was the last straw?

Perhaps?

Sounds like the US minus the dictatorship part, for now.