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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, September 12, 2023

Srivastava is one of a soaring number of Gen Zers who has decided to skip college altogether. Four million fewer teenagers enrolled at a college in 2022 than in 2012. For many, the price tag has simply grown too exorbitant to justify the cost.

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... From 2010 to 2022, college tuition rose an average of 12% a year, while overall inflation only increased an average of 2.6% each year. Today it costs at least $104,108 on average to attend four years of public university -- and $223,360 for a private university.

At the same time, the salaries students can expect to earn after graduation haven't kept up with the cost of college. A 2019 report from the Pew Research Center found that earnings for young college-educated workers had remained mostly flat over the past 50 years. ...


#1 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-09-11 11:51 AM | Reply

worldpopulationreview.com

Countries with free college educations.

Some of which anyone can access.

#2 | Posted by Corky at 2023-09-11 12:20 PM | Reply

Countries with free college educations.
Some of which anyone can access.

#2 | POSTED BY CORKY

These countries will be leaving us in the dust.

#3 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-09-11 12:39 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

This isn't remotely surprising.

Costs too high. Limited number of career paths that are still worth the up front investment. Crazy SJW crap that's ever changing and angry that you're not already aware of it.

#4 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-11 02:20 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Makes sense. Top tier jobs aren't for everyone. And there's more graduates than top tier jobs anyway.

I'm not sure why only ~20% of jobs can be top tier, but that's how it's been for around 50 years now.

#5 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 07:43 AM | Reply

#1 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER AT 2023-09-11 11:51 AM | REPLY

Spend the first two years in community college. Knock $40k and $110k off of those prices. It's stunning how many STEM majors can't figure that out, they're in math heavy fields.

#6 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 08:22 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

There are plenty of colleges out there at $15k/year or less, and many more at less than $20k/year. Too many students are convinced that they need to go to an Ivy or Ivy-type college, or some mega-school with a huge football stadium, for more than they can afford, and to study some topic that has little meaning to them. Meanwhile, there are plenty of smart students who do not fit for college, and don't want to go to college, and end up in a technical school to learn a marketable trade (e.g., plumber, electrician, tool and die maker, CNC operator). Not enough has been said to make the choices of such students honorable and respectable. There is nothing wrong with a 21 year-old trained, certified CNC operator making $60-70k, doing something he/she likes and is good at...

#7 | Posted by catdog at 2023-09-12 09:28 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

certified CNC operator making $60-70k.

LOL. They can barely afford a 1br apartment.

#8 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 09:36 AM | Reply

"Too many students are convinced that they need to go to an Ivy or Ivy-type college, or some mega-school with a huge football stadium, for more than they can afford, and to study some topic that has little meaning to them."

100% true. And it's for more reasons than "it's too expensive" why someone would skip college. And the community college for the first 2 years is also a solid alternative.

there are other reasons to skip college.....maturity being #1 on the list.

But blame it on someone else.......always a good plan.

#9 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 10:04 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Too many students are convinced"

Who convinced then?

#10 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 10:05 AM | Reply

"And the community college for the first 2 years is also a solid alternative."

When did this become the stock answer? When did four year schools become last-two-year schools? Who here giving this advice followed it or sent their own kids on that path? Just curious...

#11 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 10:08 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

-When did four year schools become last-two-year schools?

community colleges have been around here for 50+ years. They serve as a place to get 60 or so transferable credits to 4-year schools to finish your degree.

#12 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 10:13 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Ban college sports and prices will drop dramatically. The highest paid state employees are usually football coaches.

#13 | Posted by qcp at 2023-09-12 10:23 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#1

Going through this myself at the moment, the in-state costs seem a bit high, and the private rates look a bit low.

My daughter just started at the University of AZ in Tucson, and tuition and fees are just under $50k per year. Housing is another $800 per month. She also has to have a meal plan, but I forget what we paid for that. It wasn't cheap though. And that's OOS at a public school.

#14 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-12 10:23 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Too many students are convinced that they need to go to an Ivy or Ivy-type college, or some mega-school with a huge football stadium, for more than they can afford, and to study some topic that has little meaning to them.

I think this speaks to the larger issue of people in their late teens simply being too young and inexperienced to make such significant life decisions. Looking back at how dumb i was back then, it's insane to think it was basically *up to me* to decide whether to incur hundreds of thousands in debt for something I wasn't really sure about. I changed my major three times. I came out of it unscathed but many people don't.

One of the less spoken-of benefits of college is that it gives a really immature age group another four years to have fun and figure things out before entering reality. It would be nice if we could just be honest about there being some value in that and take some of the pressure off somehow.

#15 | Posted by JOE at 2023-09-12 10:24 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

"Too many students are convinced"
Who convinced then?

#10 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Anyone born in the 80's was basically told they either went to college or the ended up poor.

Joke is on them! Everyone ended up poor either with low paying jobs or big student loans.

#16 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-09-12 10:43 AM | Reply

"Fun and figure things out" seems like a woefully incomplete view on it. What it really produces is a long term social network of educated people for mutual benefit, with the knock on effect of vertical wealth and class consolidation as they make more money and have less kids.

#17 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 10:45 AM | Reply

Joke is on them! Everyone ended up poor either with low paying jobs or big student loans.

#16 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT AT 2023-09-12 10:43 AM | FLAG:

I was born in 80. I ended up with neither. I split classes between 2 and 4 year school at the same time because of the massive savings and zero difference in the course, while working 40 hour weeks which is manageable with 10-11 credit hours a semester as long as you don't ---- off and party. I went back to a 2 year school again a decade later to take some classes I was interested in. I went back to a 4 year school a decade later for fancier paperwork. Never took any student loans. Now I'm getting big amex points every semester.

#18 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 10:49 AM | Reply

and it's entirely because my parents said: "Don't take out debt, it's a scam." They weren't lying.

#19 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 10:50 AM | Reply

and it's entirely because my parents said: "Don't take out debt, it's a scam." They weren't lying.
#19 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

They weren't lying.
To date I've paid about $27K on my student loans.
The split is $14k Interest and $13k Principal.

#20 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 11:53 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

That's You-Lost-At-Tony-Sorpanos-Card-Game kind of loan terms. Why was sourcing part of your curriculum to a cheap 2 year school so unappealing or was it not even on your radar as an option?

#21 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 12:27 PM | Reply

Davey! You're doin' a good job!

#22 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 12:31 PM | Reply

"That's You-Lost-At-Tony-Sorpanos-Card-Game kind of loan terms"

Yeah, that's why students are angry.

#23 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 12:48 PM | Reply

"Why was sourcing part of your curriculum to a cheap 2 year school so unappealing"

It's appealing but it's not an option for a graduate program. My undergrad loans from 30 years ago were only $1,640.

#24 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 12:50 PM | Reply

My daughter is doing ROTC, Which should pay around $18k per year, plus she has an academic scholarship that pays $20k per year. She was still terrified to take out any sort of loan.

I explained to her that, if she continues with ROTC and gets a commission, the break-even point for what she would earn as a 20-year O-5 (Lt Col) and someone making median household income is about a half a million dollars in student loans.

I think at most she might have to take out $10k, and that's just because I don't want to pay for everything. I want her to have some sense of responsibility.

#25 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-12 01:26 PM | Reply

"Yeah, that's why students are angry."

Do you think they would be less angry if they were told they didn't qualify for loans because their field of study was not likely to generate sufficient income to pay them off in a reasonable amount of time?

#26 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-12 01:27 PM | Reply

I think at most she might have to take out $10k, and that's just because I don't want to pay for everything. I want her to have some sense of responsibility.
#25 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

I go back and forth on this, though I have time before choosing.

I would rather my children get loans from me before the bank, I would rather the children keep our wealth within the family than some bank.

The loan could be formalized. But there is the moral hazard thing. Seems like a Military child might be more responsible than someone jumping into a 4yr school without an idea of what they are going to study.

Anyhow its an interesting problem

The two community colleges are the way to go before you know.

"Yeah, that's why students are angry."

Not being angry at the University is the problem.

#27 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-09-12 01:34 PM | Reply

#27

The University? Why?

How many kids will graduate from high school to take out hundreds of thousands in student loans to go into fields that pay $30-$40k per year?

Loaning an 18 year old $300k so they can attend an expensive private school might be less dumb than loaning them the same amount so they could go by a Lamborghini. At least the car is going to retain some of its value.

#28 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-12 01:47 PM | Reply

You do realize that you're presenting the exception as the norm, right?

Median student loan debt is about $35,000.

Your post above is the education equivalent of the the welfare queen buying lobster and ribeyes trope.

#29 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-12 02:20 PM | Reply

"You do realize that you're presenting the exception as the norm, right?"

That's what he does.

#30 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 02:23 PM | Reply

#29

My daughter was approved for $240k in student loans.

She just turned 18 in July.

$35k is nothing. Even if you're only making $70-$80k per year. Hell, less even.

No student has a right to be angry about $35k unless they're just entitled. Or they've been conditioned to think that the $35 is owed to them.

#31 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-12 02:47 PM | Reply

"No student has a right to be angry about $35k"

It's not the $35k loan.

It's the $75k it takes to pay off the loan.

#32 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 02:49 PM | Reply

"Not being angry at the University is the problem."

You're a moron.

The University doesn't control anything about the loan whatsoever.

#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 02:51 PM | Reply

$35k is nothing

It is when you're living paycheck to paycheck.

The point is you need to get out of your little privileged world and learn what reality actually is.

The norm is people with

#34 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-12 02:51 PM | Reply

"$35k is nothing"

Which 22yo said this?
Not one who needed $35k in loans to go to college!

#35 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 02:52 PM | Reply

$35k is just under half of a down payment on the median home sold in America.

#36 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 02:54 PM | Reply

Loaning an 18 year old $300k so they can attend an expensive private school might be less dumb than loaning them the same amount so they could go by a Lamborghini. At least the car is going to retain some of its value.

#28 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER AT 2023-09-12 01:47 PM | FLAG:

Woah flag on this play. The education and connections from the time at the expensive private schools are proven long term earnings boosters unless you went out of your way to getting a doctorate in obscure niches of European history.

Lamborghinis are depreciating assets that lose value every moment you use them, and even lose value when you don't given time mandatory replacement items. Only intentionally supply constrained, very limited models have a chance at appreciation, and a $300k loan won't really get you one of those, and generally to be selected to be offered to buy one, you have to be a previous owner.

#37 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 02:55 PM | Reply

$35k is just under half of a down payment on the median home sold in America.

#36 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2023-09-12 02:54 PM | FLAG:

That's to get a loan that doesn't require mortgage insurance. At the current Q2 2023 median, your $35k is only 5k from getting you in the door with a lender that does 10%. The insurance is like 0.5% to 1.5% of the loan depending on how ---- your credit is.

#38 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 03:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The norm is people with

#34 | Posted by jpw

Oooops the less than sign killed the rest of the post.

The norm is people with less than $50K in loans to get a business or marketing or accounting degree.

Social sciences account for less than 10% of Bachelor's given.

www.coursera.org

#39 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-12 03:04 PM | Reply

"It's not the $35k loan. It's the $75k it takes to pay off the loan."

Then they shouldn't take the loan.

#40 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-12 03:06 PM | Reply

If I didn't take the loan I wouldn't have gone to grad school, so...

#41 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 03:08 PM | Reply

Congress should set the interest rate to zero. I've paid plenty.

#42 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 03:09 PM | Reply

"That's to get a loan that doesn't require mortgage insurance."

Uh huh. Are you advocating for the return of NINJA loans or something?

#43 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 03:10 PM | Reply

"It is when you're living paycheck to paycheck."

If you have a college degree and you're living paycheck to paycheck, you maybe should have gone into the trades.

Over ten years, $35k would be what? $300 per month? Something like that.

Median income for a new graduate with a business degree is $52k. Had they not gone to college, it would be ~$36k. That's a pretty low break-even point on a $35k loan.

"The point is you need to get out of your little privileged world and learn what reality actually is."

Bro...this is a math problem. Nothing more.

#44 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-12 03:12 PM | Reply

"$35k is just under half of a down payment on the median home sold in America."

Cool. And if you paid the difference between what you would have earned with an HS diploma and what you earn with a college degree, you'll have the loan paid off in two years and a couple of months.

Theyn you can do the same and put a down payment on a house.

#45 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-12 03:14 PM | Reply

#7

I'm reminded of an article I read about a kid who majored in journalism at NYU, followed by grad school at Columbia. When all was said and done, with all his hundreds of thousands in student loans, he was offered jobs making ~$30k per year. So he decided he was not going to pay off his student loans.

Going to the right schools did not seem to have benefitted this kid much.

#46 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-12 03:16 PM | Reply

"If I didn't take the loan I wouldn't have gone to grad school, so..."

OK. So was it worth it or not?

Do you wish you hadn't done it?

#47 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-12 03:18 PM | Reply

#43 no just a loan lol. Mortgage insurance is real. It's for people that don't have 20% and a normal banking product used residential and commercial. If you have the 20% the whole thing saves you a point, as the rich get richer.

#48 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 03:20 PM | Reply

"Congress should set the interest rate to zero. I've paid plenty."

OK.

Do you see where there might be some negative fallout from mandating zero-interest loans?

I mean, take you for instance. No actual lender is going to loan money for free, which means it would need to be offered by the government, which means that it would need to come from the taxpayers.

I'm not sure what you did for grad school, but by the virtue of the fact that you've spent $75k on a 35k loan, either you got a degree in something that doesn't generate a lot of income, or that you make bad financial choices. I'm not sure it is the role of taxpayers to subsidize and compensate for your fiscally unsound life choices.

#49 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-12 03:22 PM | Reply

"Do you see where there might be some negative fallout from mandating zero-interest loans?"

Not a concern for me when I've already paid ~25% of the principal as interest.

#50 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 03:32 PM | Reply

"So was it worth it or not?"

It would be more worth even more if the loan terms weren't designed to make rich bankers even richer at my expense.

#51 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 03:36 PM | Reply

"No actual lender is going to loan money for free"

PPP Loans on Line 2.

#52 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 03:36 PM | Reply

"No actual lender is going to loan money for free"

I've already paid $14K in interest so the money isn't free.

And even if interest goes to zero, the loan balance is higher than the loan amount since unpaid accrued interest gets capitated annually.

I thought you thought you were supposed to be a financial genius who understands these kinds of things.

#53 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 03:40 PM | Reply

"The point is you need to get out of your little privileged world and learn what reality actually is."

I made my privileged world. I started with nothing.

Why do folks attack success and hard work by calling it a "privileged world"?

If that's not what you're doing then I retract my question.

#54 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 03:41 PM | Reply

"If you have a college degree and you're living paycheck to paycheck, you maybe should have gone into the trades."

That's not actionable advice for people with a college degree living paycheck to paycheck.

#55 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 03:43 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Why do folks attack success and hard work by calling it a "privileged world"?"

Who's attacking hard work? You want hard work, go to grad school.

#56 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 03:44 PM | Reply

I went to grad school. Great move.

It was hard work but it paid off.

#57 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 03:46 PM | Reply

-That's not actionable advice for people with a college degree living paycheck to paycheck.

Are you describing yourself?

#58 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 03:47 PM | Reply

"Are you describing yourself?"

No, just millions of Americans.

#59 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 03:48 PM | Reply

So if you just went to work after the BS you would probably be a homeowner that rode Cali or PacNw housing inflation to a 750k, potentially 1.5 mil net worth with your home loan ending right on the horizon.

That's a really expensive degree.

#60 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 03:48 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

And even if interest goes to zero, the loan balance is higher than the loan amount since unpaid accrued interest gets capitated annually - snoofy

You paid less than min monthly.
Like Cc only paying the min is a problem.

Kinda your fault.

#61 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-09-12 03:49 PM | Reply

"just millions of Americans."

Do you know any of them? Can you describe anybody you actually know who is in this situation?

#62 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 03:50 PM | Reply

Teacher, low pay, graduated over 20 years ago, still paying loans.

Guy who never finished, low pay, still paying loans.

Snoofy, graduated five years ago, can't really afford to buy a house and also pay ~1k on a loan every month.

#63 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 03:59 PM | Reply

"You paid less than min monthly."

No, I paid the min monthly until I realized what was happening.

The interest accrues faster than the minimum monthly payment makes it go away.

#64 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 04:00 PM | Reply

So if you just went to work after the BS
#60 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

I did go to work after the BS. But not in the top tier of the economy.

#65 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 04:01 PM | Reply

You didn't have to be in that. You just had to not add massive debt.

#66 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 04:06 PM | Reply

Like Cc only paying the min is a problem.
Kinda your fault.
#61 | POSTED BY ONEIRONAUT

I can live with that.

The fact that these loans have provisions to sunset after 25 years regardless of outstanding principal tells us they were designed to be paid over 25 years without actually fully paying off the principal.

Instead you pay 1x to 5x the principal over 25 years.

It's almost like buying a spot at the cemetery. After 25 years grandma gets the lawn mowed "in perpetuity."

#67 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 04:06 PM | Reply

"You just had to not add massive debt."

You mean like... buy a house? ;)

#68 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 04:07 PM | Reply

1x to 5x
should be:
2x to 5x

Math is hard!

#69 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 04:08 PM | Reply

You mean like... buy a house? ;)

#68 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2023-09-12 04:07 PM | FLAG:

Not when rates are low. They're appreciating assets with big returns.

#70 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 04:13 PM | Reply

Bro...this is a math problem. Nothing more.

#44 | Posted by madbomber

And yet you constantly reference a figment of your imagination.

Payment would be about $365 a month.

smartasset.com

$52K a year = ~$42K net = $3500 per month

Rent is gonna cost you at least $2K. More like $2.5K if you want a decent place.

So now you're down to $1000-1500 per month remaining.

Car is $300. Utilities are $400. Food is $350-400.

And we haven't even gotten into cell, gas for car ect.

Which is why most end up on income driven plans, which is where you see interest increasing the principal of the loan year after year and people end up paying the original principal plus more and STILL have a balance.

#71 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-12 04:29 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

71 is NW

#72 | Posted by Corky at 2023-09-12 04:47 PM | Reply

-Snoofy, graduated five years ago, can't really afford to buy a house and also pay ~1k on a loan every month.

so, you were talking about yourself.

You're living paycheck to paycheck based on what you just posted.

"71 is NW".

Sad is a better explanation for it.

paying $2,500 a month for rent while making $52K a year? That's so ------- retarded I don't know where to begin.

That's a real place? A real job in a real place?

Corky, JPW, is Snoofy a moron or just a poor victim?

#73 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 05:36 PM | Reply

"paying $2,500 a month for rent while making $52K a year?"

Let's take Washington, D.C. as an example: The average K12 Teacher salary in District of Columbia is $66,408 as of August 27, 2023. www.salary.com

"$2,500 a month for rent"

Still in Washington, D.C.: The average rent for a 1-bedroom apartment increased by 1% to $2,400, and the average rent for a 2-bedroom apartment decreased by -1% to $3,215. www.zumper.com

"That's so ------- retarded I don't know where to begin."

Yes I've been saying this about our economy for what, a decade now?

#74 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 05:48 PM | Reply

morons who agree to that are just morons.

#75 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 05:55 PM | Reply

That's a real place? A real job in a real place?

Corky, JPW, is Snoofy a moron or just a poor victim?

#73 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Another bubble dweller who wants to comment as if he has a clue.

I've been looking a lot for rentals in various places because I'm leaving my job and am looking/interviewing for a new one.

You might get down into the $1800 range for an apartment, but a house? Sub-$2000 means not great area. If you want a safe neighborhood and enough space for a family? $2000 minimum in every place I've looked.

Only place to find the above for sub-$2000 is more rural areas. But jobs aren't exactly booming there, nor is median pay gonna be a salary for starting employees fresh out of college.

#76 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-12 05:56 PM | Reply

morons who agree to that are just morons.
#75 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Agree to that?
When did you agree to this deal?
"Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households."

#77 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 05:58 PM | Reply

most teachers are just morons.
#75 | POSTED BY EBERLY

#78 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 06:00 PM | Reply

Granted, these are areas like Ann Arbor, MI and Gaithersburg, MD areas.

But let's say you can find an apartment for $1200 a month. Cool. You've freed up enough to contribute 5% to retirement and pay student loan bill in time to be back to broke.

#79 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-12 06:03 PM | Reply

-Another bubble dweller

Yes, born into wealth, Exeter, Harvard, and took over my daddy's company.

I humbly apologize for being born on 3rd base, slum dweller.

#80 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 06:04 PM | Reply

"You might get down into the $1800 range for an apartment, but a house? Sub-$2000 means not great area. If you want a safe neighborhood and enough space for a family? $2000 minimum in every place I've looked.
Only place to find the above for sub-$2000 is more rural areas. But jobs aren't exactly booming there, nor is median pay gonna be a salary for starting employees fresh out of college."

What makes any of you think any of what you're telling me is news? Something I don't already know?

#81 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 06:08 PM | Reply

-Another bubble dweller
#80 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Your bubble is GOP, and you'll never leave. It's your Safe Space.

#82 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 06:08 PM | Reply

Hey Eberly,

Type of Degree Median Yearly Earnings of 25 to 34 Year Old Full-Time Workers
Less than high school $29,800
High school $36,600
Some college, no degree $39,900
Associate degree $44,100
Bachelor's degree $59,600
Master's degree or higher $69,700
www.forbes.com

#83 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 06:10 PM | Reply

Funny to watch people who aren't exactly doing very well financially lecture folks who ARE doing well on matters involving......finance.

#84 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 06:11 PM | Reply

thanks for the google link, moron.

#85 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 06:12 PM | Reply

"Master's degree or higher $69,700"

That's who's struggling with student debt. The median student who did everything "right" and yet only makes $70k. Their future is on hold while they pay down their past.

What Is the Average Student Loan Debt for Graduate School?

The average student loan debt for graduate school in 2015-16 was $71,000, according to the most recent data available from the National Center for Education Statistics.

That average reflects debt for master's degrees, Ph.D.s and other graduate school loans borrowed only for advanced degrees. Including undergraduate loans increases the average debt for graduate students to $82,800.

With a total debt of $82,800, the average graduate student would repay $949 each month and $113,936 overall, assuming current federal interest rates and a standard 10-year repayment term.
www.nerdwallet.com

That $1K a month payment really cuts into the budget, especially when you only make $70K.

#86 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 06:13 PM | Reply

Funny to watch people who aren't exactly doing very well financially lecture folks who ARE doing well on matters involving......finance.
#84 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Yes, I also enjoy the comments from GracieAmazed.

#87 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 06:15 PM | Reply

-That's who's struggling with student debt

I thought I read here most folks who were going to benefit from the student loan forgiveness were people who never finished a degree.

#88 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 06:17 PM | Reply

-Yes, I also enjoy the comments from GracieAmazed.

gracie is struggling?

#89 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 06:18 PM | Reply

I mean....you are. and so is JPW it appears.

and I'm not trying to kick someone when they are down being in your situation doesn't make you smarter than me.

I imagine that's impossible for you to understand.

But if Gracie starts lecturing me on how the world really works, then I'll gladly take issue with her.

#90 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 06:20 PM | Reply

I wouldn't say I'm struggling. What I said is, it would be a struggle to buy a house and also pay off my loans.

Pay off my loans in a reasonable time frame, at these interest rates, both of which could change depending on Congress and Biden and Election Year, so there's really no incentive to pay it all off now, only to miss out on any forgiveness later.

#91 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 06:24 PM | Reply

gracie is struggling?
#89 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Financially?
Does she strike you as a woman of means?

#92 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 06:25 PM | Reply

I thought I read here most folks who were going to benefit from the student loan forgiveness were people who never finished a degree.
#88 | POSTED BY EBERLY

There's got to be a bunch of those too. I know at least one. Getting the loans but not finishing the degree is the worst of both worlds.

#93 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 06:26 PM | Reply

Poor little snoopy Door Dash driver. I should charge you rent. Coward is afraid to post on the Nooner where he would be less protected.

#94 | Posted by gracieamazed at 2023-09-12 06:38 PM | Reply

"I should charge you rent."

I am happy to just buy you the cat food you need to survive. Though it should be your rapist son who is doing that for you!

#95 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 06:39 PM | Reply

-your rapist son

good grief.

-I wouldn't say I'm struggling.

that's denial. You are clearly struggling.

but keep lecturing me on how the world works and how smart you are.

#96 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 07:01 PM | Reply

-Door Dash driver

seriously? You're a ------ door dash driver?

#97 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 07:01 PM | Reply

No, I did that during the lockdown. Seemed like a better way to get a job, than not being a delivery driver.

You know, for the part of the interview where they ask what have you been doing lately. Listening to racist Republicans who support racist Republican policies say they aren't racist, well, that isn't the right answer.

#98 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 07:21 PM | Reply

98

Sounds like a toxic group.

#99 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 07:22 PM | Reply

Toxins are supposed to kill you eventually.
Racist Republicans, they're here every day!

What's the secret to their success?

#100 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 07:24 PM | Reply

-No, I did that during the lockdown.

Didn't have an essential job? Sounds like you're just killin it.

#101 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 07:33 PM | Reply

What makes any of you think any of what you're telling me is news? Something I don't already know?
#81 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Then why did you seem to think those rent prices are ridiculous?

#102 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-12 07:42 PM | Reply

I mean....you are. and so is JPW it appears.

Are you just trying to troll?

Or did the Mrs have a "headache" last night?

#103 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-12 07:44 PM | Reply

"Didn't have an essential job?"

Maybe you should borrow GracieAmazed notes?
When COVID rolled around, I was unemployed.
Which is why I got all that fake unemployed money on my fake EBT card.
I shoupd probably use all that fake money to pay down my real student loans, but I haven't quite decided what I'm gonna do yet.

#104 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 07:45 PM | Reply

#96 sounds like you need a reason to think you've "made it."

If I was there I'd give you the hug you need, ebs.

#105 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-12 07:51 PM | Reply

-Maybe you should borrow GracieAmazed notes?

I've ignored the both of you for the most part for several years.

And I don't buy that absurd story.

Nobody is stupid enough to admit to something so pathetic as that.

Nobody

#106 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 07:53 PM | Reply

I can't say what monkey is on Eberly's back, but it has been there for the better part of a decade now.

I'm partial towards the idea he doesn't like being the grandparent of a mixed baby. Bad for business.

#107 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 07:53 PM | Reply

"And I don't buy that absurd story."

You don't buy that I got laid off, along with the rest of my department?

And here you were just saying how having less people in a program saves money...

#108 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 07:54 PM | Reply

-Or did the Mrs have a "headache" last night?

Now you're giving marriage advice?

Your expertise knows no bounds.

I just celebrated my 25th anniversary

But let me hear your wisdom.

#109 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 07:55 PM | Reply

-You don't buy that I got laid off,

Absolutely believe that. What was the job you were laid off from?

#110 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 07:57 PM | Reply

I was a research analyst.

#111 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 07:57 PM | Reply

-I'm partial towards the idea he doesn't like being the grandparent of a mixed baby. Bad for business.

Yikes.

#112 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 07:59 PM | Reply

#109 nothing about my post was advice, everbutthurt.

Just pointing out that you seem to keen on kicking someone while they're down.

Which would suggest something's got you goat.

#113 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-12 07:59 PM | Reply

111

And that job just went away?

LOL

#114 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 07:59 PM | Reply

"And that job just went away?"

No, the project we were working on came to an end and they didn't pick up a round two.

I'm guessing you're so inexperienced with working life -- especially in the tech field -- that you've never experienced a layoff, is what's happening here.

#115 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 08:02 PM | Reply

"Which would suggest something's got you goat."

Whatever it is, it's something beyond his control. Which points to family problems.

#116 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 08:04 PM | Reply

"I just celebrated my 25th anniversary"

Cracker Barrel?

#117 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 08:04 PM | Reply

-Just pointing out that you seem to keen on kicking someone while they're down.

That's awful.

Except in business. I've learned over the years there is no better time to kick someone than when they are down.

But you and snooty are smart, obviously

And I'm not. So keep posting the wisdom.

Like rent in Washington DC.

#118 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 08:05 PM | Reply

-Which would suggest something's got you goat.

Your challenges are what make you so smart.

And me not, clearly.

#119 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 08:08 PM | Reply

"Except in business. I've learned over the years there is no better time to kick someone than when they are down."

Serious question, assuming you're being serious, of course:
Can you give some examples?
Not necessarily from your business, anything from current events or pop culture will do.

But I also am curious what it looks like when the insurance company kicks someone while they are down. I guess that simply means denying claims?

#120 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 08:09 PM | Reply

Who rejected you that you're all mopey?

#121 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-12 08:09 PM | Reply

-Then why did you seem to think those rent prices are ridiculous?

That's not my point.

People who make such paltry wages paying that kind of rent is ridiculous

#122 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 08:10 PM | Reply

#122 the point, though, is that that's the norm.

You don't see a problem that median wage earners can't afford median rent prices?

#123 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-12 08:15 PM | Reply

-Can you give some examples?

Taking clients from competitors. Not harming clients.

I know when the competition is in a weak position.

I've recently got 3 new clients. Worth over a million a year in revenue to my firm.

I've lost a few as well but we're up close to $1million this year in profit.

#124 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 08:18 PM | Reply

"People who make such paltry wages paying that kind of rent is ridiculous"

What else are people supposed to do?

That's what rent costs. That's what jobs pay.

That's why so many more young people are living at home!

Are you seriously saying you haven't seen the middle class evaporate slowly over time?

Your party won't even support a minimum wage, let alone minimum wage increase. Minimum wage which last increased 14 years ago.

What you are seeing is what it's like when wages don't keep up with productivity. Being on the coast costs more too, and just like the polar caps are experiencing much greater global warming than we are (so far), the situation becomes more ridiculous as you approach the coastal cities and job centers.

So, let me know what you think can be done about this ridiculous situation, because increase party wages sure seems like the incredibly obvious first step.

#125 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 08:27 PM | Reply

Also, median household wage is "paltry," but he doesn't live in a bubble lol

#126 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-12 08:31 PM | Reply

You don't see a problem that median wage earners can't afford median rent prices?
#123 | POSTED BY JPW

Been thinking about that a lot lately.

We have all these tools and concepts built around the Normal Distribution, aka the Bell Curve.

But things like the distribution of wealth and income in the economy are nothing like a bell curve. And, importantly, have gotten less like a bell curve during all of our working lives.

The median is pretty far from the mean. Why? Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households.

I don't regret going to grad school but I'm not sure I would have done it if I didn't think I needed the money.

#127 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 08:39 PM | Reply

The only road to reigning in college costs is ------- student body growth, supply growth, to accepting students that take loans. You can't inflate demand without massively inflating supply to keep up. The Ivy League is anti-growth because their brand is exclusivity and have endowments to fund whatever they want that turns massive investment profits, but are a minority anyways. Everybody else that wants that money has to start growing to drive down costs.

#128 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 08:44 PM | Reply

"Taking clients from competitors. Not harming clients."

They should let you harm the clients just a little bit. As a treat.

#129 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 08:46 PM | Reply

"The only road to reigning in college costs is ------- student body growth, supply growth, to accepting students that take loans."

That will build a two tier system. One that does not favor the Ivy Leagues, which is where the old money is, and the GOP buzzword Private, so even if e.g. the University of Texas system and Texans would ultimately profit immensely, the idea will blocked by their own government.

It's an interesting idea on how to manage costs though. Makes me think of a reverse social security.

#130 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 08:52 PM | Reply

and conceptually, the family with 1 job and the man doing "business" and the woman homemaker and kids supported on a single income along with mortgage and bills, is a historical anomaly in the United States fueled by post-WW2 veterans benefits. The standard before that was always multigenerational family dwellings, the "kids still living at home". The suburbanization driven destruction of that isn't actually healthy and critical historians argue it has precipitated a mental health crisis in women.

#131 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 08:53 PM | Reply

That will build a two tier system.

#130 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2023-09-12 08:52 PM | FLAG:

There's already a two tier system. One isn't designed to be affordable and never will be. Make the best with the other one.

#132 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 08:54 PM | Reply

If Capitalism could innovate a better education system it would have done so by now.

There are things you can't buy, but Capitalism doesn't have any way of knowing that. It will keep optimizing. And those optimizations will incur costs elsewhere.

#133 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 08:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#If Capitalism could innovate a better education system it would have done so by now
-snoofy.

It has, just poor people can't pay taxes for public school system and pay for their children to attend the capitalist version.

#134 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-09-12 08:59 PM | Reply

"and conceptually, the family with 1 job and the man doing "business" and the woman homemaker and kids supported on a single income along with mortgage and bills, is a historical anomaly in the United States fueled by post-WW2 veterans benefits."

Nice concept.

Economically, during this time period, wages grew in lockstep with productivity.

This "historical anomaly" ended in 1975.

It did not end out of economic necessity.

To the extent that wages can improve life -- everyone in this country was better off when wages grew with productivity.

Re-invigorating the economy by matching wages to productivity needs to be our national economic agenda. It is the only way out of this hole. It's a lot like whichever diet you're on, it gonna work when calories in less than calories out.

#135 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 09:06 PM | Reply

Can we just rename the rename Educating Eberley?

#136 | Posted by Corky at 2023-09-12 09:30 PM | Reply

Re-invigorating the economy by matching wages to productivity needs to be our national economic agenda.

Learn how to weld LMAO...

#137 | Posted by Mao_Content at 2023-09-12 09:41 PM | Reply

136....yet another successful person to come tell me, from his place in life, how they have it all figured out.

I commented originally on someone's personal anecdotal stupid choices in life and it turns in a contest to see how fast you can defend it, then hide behind "Median this and median that" --------.

falling into the "Median" trap is just an excuse for poor choices. period.

your median income can't afford your median rent and it someone else's fault besides yourself.
< br />
Obviously, any moron can google median whatever and use it as a platform to complain about your lot in life. Even Snoofy and JPW.

Your lot is your lot......blame yourself for your choices.

#138 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 09:41 PM | Reply

"but he doesn't live in a bubble lol"

You're so big and strong....and sooooo smart.

I know I know.....successful people live in a bubble, right?

#139 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 09:44 PM | Reply

Learn how to weld LMAO...

"But that's a median wage and they can't afford median rent!!!!!"

-JPWoofy

#140 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 09:45 PM | Reply

your median income can't afford your median rent and it someone else's fault besides yourself.

Only so many cows in Kansas to insure.

You were lucky to get there first.

#141 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-09-12 09:45 PM | Reply

But that's a median wage...

Welding is pretty serious coin in a lot of places.

#142 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-09-12 09:48 PM | Reply

"Only so many cows in Kansas to insure.
You were lucky to get there first."

around 1.5 million cattle in Kansas.....and we insure a few.

I wasn't first. I invited myself to the party.

#143 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 09:51 PM | Reply

-Welding is pretty serious coin in a lot of places.

whatever you can make serious coin doing, it's a lock that some morons here will never be doing that.

Instead, they'll be crying they can't afford their rent on whatever they do....with a graduate degree.....LOL

#144 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 09:53 PM | Reply

"the top 20% of households"

aaahhhh....the bubble people you curse

#145 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 09:58 PM | Reply

Welding is pretty serious coin in a lot of places.

----... any trade is now.

I'm a twice degreed professional with a "Director" title at an international company and the little 23 year old ------ building fence for me grossed more last year than I did....

I think the problem is this sense of entitlement that comes with having attended college.....the antiquated idea that you are somehow "better" or "more educated" than those who didn't...

As anyone who spends 15 minutes perusing this most august website can see, there is a profound difference between being "well-educated" vs just simply having attended school for a long time.

#146 | Posted by Mao_Content at 2023-09-12 10:02 PM | Reply

I have 2 gen Z kids currently in college. 1 in law school actually and the other earning an engineering degree.

the engineering student is the same age as the kid in the article...meaning they started college at the same time. experienced COVID while in high school and came into college with the similar challenges.

That kid lasted a couple months and gave up.

BFD. The article tried to tie this kid's failure to the cost. He didn't spend enough time in college for his failure to have anything to do with the costs.

did that not occur to any of you? His failure wasn't related to the costs. For all you know, he's rich as hell and just couldn't hack it.

But you --------- who can't even figure out your own lives can keep lecturing me on how the world works....as if I didn't go to college on my own dime, including grad school and then put 2 kids into college with a 3rd in a few years.

bubble.........what a laugh.

#147 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 10:05 PM | Reply

----... any trade is now.

True enough, but welding is one of the easier trades to get in to. Lots of grunt, not much math.

#148 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-09-12 10:05 PM | Reply

"falling into the "Median" trap is just an excuse for poor choices. period."

Sorry, what?
Any statistical distribution has a median.
The example I gave was of a teacher. You're saying being a teacher is a poor choice. You could do the same numbers and it would be a cop or a EMT who made the bad choices.

You're back to saying there isn't really a problem, these are just bad choices that people made, and there's no problem if society continues to go this way.

You really do live in a bubble, it seems.

#149 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 10:07 PM | Reply

"the top 20% of households"
aaahhhh....the bubble people you curse
#145 | POSTED BY EBERLY

The reason I went to grad school is it seemed the best way to get on that top 20% gravy train, Eberly.

#150 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 10:10 PM | Reply

-I think the problem is this sense of entitlement that comes with having attended college

I believe we have individuals here who suffer from that problem.

What they can't face is that they aren't very employable. they sit around and convince themselves it's the republicans who are screwing them over instead of working on the real problem they face. That they aren't worth much to any employer. They know it, deep down.

They should worry about how they can be more valuable tomorrow than they were yesterday but that likely involves working harder.......so.....nope. not going there.

Instead, they blog all day about what Clarence Thomas and Donald Trump did to put them in their -------- apartment they can barely afford because their ------ job doesn't pay any more than it does....

....even though employers are still paying higher wages than ever before for folks to show up sober with a drivers license.

Truck drivers who can barely speak english make more than those ridiculous median wages they are posting. LOL

#151 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 10:11 PM | Reply

-You're saying being a teacher is a poor choice. You could do the same numbers and it would be a cop or a EMT who made the bad choices.

Those people don't come here to whine to me about their lot in life.

You do. YOU'RE the one who can't even keep up with those folks in those professions you just listed.

you WISH you could do what those folks do. You can't even muster up the ability to earn what a teacher earns.

I'm saying YOU have made poor choices.

miserable Qunt

#152 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 10:14 PM | Reply

The reason I went to grad school is it seemed the best way to get on that top 20% gravy train, Eberly.

Well that was stupid...

You're supposed go to grad school because you're genuinely interested in further pursuing knowledge in your particular field of study.

Not because of greed....

#153 | Posted by Mao_Content at 2023-09-12 10:17 PM | Reply

I'll let snoofy and JPW have their little safe space back now.

they are pissed they can't jack each other off over how bad their lives are with me embarrassing them in the process.

have at......median whiners.

#154 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 10:17 PM | Reply

"You can't even muster up the ability to earn what a teacher earns."

You must have me mistaken with someone else.

#155 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 10:18 PM | Reply

"I'm saying YOU have made poor choices."

The topic isn't me, it's the average person trying to get by in this economy that only rewards the top 20% of households. I found a way in. Most people won't.

How much longer do you think 80% of people can keep making bad choices before this doesn't work any more, Eberly?

#156 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 10:22 PM | Reply

I'm genuinely fascinated by these supposedly grown ass men who have been raised to believe that the world somehow owes them a particular standard of living.

#157 | Posted by Mao_Content at 2023-09-12 10:22 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

156

Forever.

It's what slums are for.

But you know that, obviously.

Found your way into the 20% did you?

While driving door dash on welfare?

#158 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 10:30 PM | Reply

Back in the day when income inequality grew too much, there were revolutions and the rich were murdered.

Unfortunately for us, Republicans have been taught to like their place in the trailer park.

They're morons.

#159 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-09-12 10:35 PM | Reply

-The topic isn't me,

You made it about yourself. Upthread you did.

You made it all about your loans and your interest.

As if nobody else had to take out student loans and wouldn't understand how it works.

Now you're insisting it's not about you while you try to personally attack me.

You're hopeless.

#160 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 10:35 PM | Reply

"in the trailer park."

When I said slums I meant to include trailer parks.

So, you're saying trailer parks are happy and slums are not happy?

#161 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 10:38 PM | Reply

"You made it all about your loans and your interest."

Yeah, they suck,

And I'll probably do what I said, pay off a big chunk of it with the unemployment money on my debit card.

I'm giving an example of what these loans look like. Why they're a burden on people who make the median income for that education level. They're not a burden on me, but it means I could not buy as much of a house as I'd like, so I am going to keep renting and hope my comp keeps up with real estate, or at least interest rates back off a bit.

I would not call that "struggling." Struggling is my car's catalytic converter got stolen and I can't afford to get that fixed immediately and now I have to take the bus to work. And even that's a manageable struggle.

#162 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 10:39 PM | Reply

"As if nobody else had to take out student loans and wouldn't understand how it works."

How much were your student loans? Not $50,000.

You know how interest was not due for all those years, and now they just started up interest again? For me that's $933. Just in interest. I don't see how that's right. If that's just the interest, what's my payment, if I'm ever going to touch the principal.

Sitzkrieg called it a Tony Soprano loan, which seems pretty accurate. If the vig is $950 in a month. I'm really thinking that can't be right but calling them will be a huge pain in the ass that is barely worth $950 to sit there and endure.

#163 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 10:41 PM | Reply

-I would not call that "struggling."

That's why you'll always be poor.

You can't see that as struggling.

But it is. Massive struggling. You just lack standards which is why it's normal.

Most folks who live this way would think they're fine like you do.

While taking a bus because their car's CC was stolen.

#164 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-12 10:45 PM | Reply

"Most folks who live this way would think they're fine like you do."

I'm sorry, live what way?

"While taking a bus because their car's CC was stolen."

If I were in that position I would think my car insurance would cover a rental, but who knows? I also might just take an Uber. The bus is never much fun.

#165 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 10:53 PM | Reply

You just lack standards which is why it's normal.

So the teacher in DC making $68K in a $2000/mo apt, the problem with her is she lacks standards. In addition to making bad decisions.

#166 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 10:54 PM | Reply

Spend the first two years in community college. Knock $40k and $110k off of those prices. It's stunning how many STEM majors can't figure that out, they're in math heavy fields.
#6 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

Completely agree!

For many, community college is (and will be) free. A foundational post-secondary education (i.e., associate degree) leading into (or completed during) trades training is a steady and quick pathway to the middle class, with potential far beyond that.

#167 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2023-09-12 11:10 PM | Reply

I did the Intro to Biology transfer track for bio majors at community college before grad school. It was roughly the same cost per credit as when I was an undergrad at State school. Definitely worth it.

#168 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 11:16 PM | Reply

There is nothing wrong with a 21 year-old trained, certified CNC operator making $60-70k, doing something he/she likes and is good at...
#7 | POSTED BY CATDOG

Absolutely agree! In fact, this was the exact presentation I provided 90 middle schoolers today! We host project-based learning for students using CNC machines at our technical center along with laser cutters and 3D printers. And that's just the Advanced Manufacturing lab!

#169 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2023-09-12 11:18 PM | Reply

When I said slums I meant to include trailer parks.

That comment wasn't meant as a reply to your statement.

#170 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-09-12 11:31 PM | Reply

Eberly is really letting his inner bitch out tonight.

Something had him feeling super inadequate.

Blue pill stop working?

#171 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-12 11:56 PM | Reply

I'm genuinely fascinated by these supposedly grown ass men who have been raised to believe that the world somehow owes them a particular standard of living.
#157 | POSTED BY MAO_CONTENT

I'm genuinely fascinated by the supposedly grown ass men who can't comprehend pretty basic stuff.

Do you and eberly move your mouths when you read? Finally mastered not sounding things out, but can't quite stop reflexively mouthing the words?

#172 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-12 11:59 PM | Reply

I remember my dad sharing a work anecdote from early in his career. He had two women up for promotion for one position. He made his choice. The one who wasn't chosen marched into office and complained, "I have a masters degree and she only has a bachelors degree. How could you have picked her over me?"

My dad's response: "she performed better."

Succinct and perfect. I miss him so much.

#173 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-09-13 12:04 AM | Reply

#171 From where I am sitting Eberly is pretty much killing it. Get out of the cheap seats son and move close to the front row.

#174 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-09-13 12:05 AM | Reply

He's being a whiny ----. Gravy, but a Midwest --------- version.

Do you have any idea what a tool you sound like saying that, "son"?

#175 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 12:09 AM | Reply

Well, whatever has Eb's gash bleeding tonight, I hope it resolves itself.

Manana.

#176 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 12:21 AM | Reply

I use the term son because I'm guessing based upon what you've revealed about yourself you are in your mid-30's and yet have an intellectual God-complex that is absolutely through the roof.

Based on posts on this site, you have a foundling and Eberly has multiple kids at various stages of young adulthood yet you act like he knows nothing about putting kids through college even though he has done so while you are still changing diapers.

#177 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-09-13 12:25 AM | Reply

First paragraph-wrong. I see you're back in the god complex crap. Don't be proudly stupid and you'll find I have a very different demeanor.

Who gives a ---- if he's putting kids through college. Means nothing in a conversation about the effects of student loans on people's ability to build equity and comfortably have a family.

Because the kids aren't there yet.

In any case, he hasn't argued numbers. Just mumbled self-serving crap because apparently his ego needs a boost.

#178 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 12:31 AM | Reply

I miss him so much.

Says the ------- who fed him horse paste.

#179 | Posted by reinheitsgebot at 2023-09-13 12:43 AM | Reply

He's lived it and you haven't. In no way does that invalidate any of your opinions. By the same token you seem to proclaim he has no clue what he's talking about as he's living it in real time.

Ever heard of the term wisdom, and how it's earned? Life experience. In my late high school years I thought my parents didn't know anything or understand anything. By the time I graduated from college I was in awe by how much they knew and understood. It was a very humbling experience as I began to venture out on my own and all of a sudden I was seeking advice and help with so many things - from my parents.

I am going 100% serious now (this is all based on what you've shared on this site) - you are a father raising a very young boy. During the Dobbs discussions you and Miranda had something in common - she had both a miscarriage and an ectopic pregnancy as did your wife, prior to your little bundle of joy.

You are at the beginning stages of parenthood. Your biggest problem is that you are an insufferable know-it-all. Eberly is apparently in the process of putting 2 kids through college and you are still figuring out how to efficiently change a diaper and properly work a Diaper Genie.

I am not suggesting you should bow down to him or anyone else. But you are entering a period of life where you have no personal life experience to draw on - this is the time to lean on others who have been there and have thus developed wisdom.

Don't be afraid to swallow some pride and ask for guidance from those who have more experience than you.

*off my soapbox*

#180 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-09-13 12:54 AM | Reply

"yet you act like he knows nothing about putting kids through college"

Not at all.
What Eberly doesn't know is the economic reality of median people who earn the median income.
Surely Kansas is chock full of them, but the plight of those people simply aren't any more than a passing concern. When pressed, he suggestded they make bad decisions and they have no values.

He's a Republican after all.

#181 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 01:00 AM | Reply

Means nothing in a conversation about the effects of student loans on people's ability to build equity

Pussoir, my tractor note with the evil Kubota Credit Corporation is affecting my ability to build equity and more comfortably have a family. Even though I use that tractor to produce food and fiber to benefit Society.

It's awful, and I'm a victim.

Every month I have to pay lots of money towards the note.

And then everybody gets all mad at me when I don't---and they call my house and harass me and my credit goes to ----.

It's not fair.

I need relief, too.

Will you help?

Will you be my Sally Struthers and advocate for me?

#182 | Posted by Mao_Content at 2023-09-13 01:00 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I miss him so much.
---
Says the ------- who fed him horse paste.

#179 | POSTED BY REINHEITSGEBOT"

We went over this before. He died last summer. He had cancer health issues that were under control for a year prior but the radiation treatment, while much better than chemo, was not easy on him. He had a nice recovery in the spring of '22 but his health deteriorated in June. He went into the hospital and it was a roller-coaster between the hospital, rehab and ICU. He never made it back home and ultimately passed at the end of July, 2022. Prior to that he took 4 vax jabs and was never prescribed for "horse paste" and never took Ivervectin on the side.

Do you seriously-------- to the sadness of others. What in the hell prompted you to make such a nasty comment?

#183 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-09-13 01:01 AM | Reply

Are you even human?

#184 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-09-13 01:03 AM | Reply

Horse paste is a game changer.

~ Flint Water Jeff ~

#185 | Posted by reinheitsgebot at 2023-09-13 01:04 AM | Reply

"Do you seriously-------- to the sadness of others."

That's what Eberly does when people make bad choices.

Was your father's cancer because of bad choices?

#186 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 01:05 AM | Reply

"Prior to that he took 4 vax jabs and was never prescribed for "horse paste" and never took Ivervectin on the side."

You let him get the toxic Fauci shot?
Why didn't you seek appropriate medical care for your ailing father?
The guilt you feel must be immeasurable. I can see why you had to create a new identity.

#187 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 01:10 AM | Reply

"In my late high school years I thought my parents didn't know anything or understand anything. By the time I graduated from college I was in awe by how much they knew and understood."

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."
~Mark -----

#188 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-09-13 01:16 AM | Reply

italics off

#189 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-09-13 01:17 AM | Reply

I took 3 jabs. You d-bags are such ghouls.

What kind of a person takes glee at another person's loos of a loved one?

Apparently you two.

Go on living your loveless miserable lives fellas. You've earned it

#190 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-09-13 01:18 AM | Reply

#188 That's an excellent quote, Danforth.

#191 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-09-13 01:19 AM | Reply

#188 JeffJ is a collage of shopworn folk wisdom that you might get if you trained an AI on Reader's Digest.

While also thinking it's time to do something about that International Conspiracy of Bankers. That part of JeffJ AI was trained on Father Coughlin.

#192 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 01:20 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

I hadn't seen that quote before. Damn. Perfectly encapsulates my experience. I seriously thank you for sharing that in general, but the timing is perfect as I'm dealing with a couple of individuals who are being mockingly cruel about my dad passing away a year ago.

Thank you. I've been a bit emotional this week about his passing and you couldn't have timed that better.

#193 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-09-13 01:23 AM | Reply

#193 Was directed at #188 Danforth.

#194 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-09-13 01:23 AM | Reply

"a couple of individuals who are being mockingly cruel"

No, you're being an overly emotional cooze. Which you literally just said when you said "I've been a bit emotional this week about his passing"

This is just locker room talk. You don't like it, head on over to the women's locker room since you can't hang with the men.

#195 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 01:29 AM | Reply

And if you can't figure out this is a pastiche of your own Deplorable values, that's your problem.

To Sum Up: ---- Your Feelings.

#196 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 01:31 AM | Reply

"I hadn't seen that quote before. Damn. Perfectly encapsulates my experience."

Mine, too. The way I've always put it is I spent the first 20 years trying to be anyone but my father, and the rest of my life trying to be my father.

#197 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-09-13 01:51 AM | Reply

Snoofy,

I mostly ignore you because you contribute almost nothing to any real discussion on this site, as scanty as they are.

I will take you up because I am about to go to bed for the night and just feel like acknowledging your last barrage of pathetic nastiness.

Last summer my dad passed at 78. To this day and the rest of my life I do and will miss him. That is not a politics thing, it's a human thing.

Neither politics nor policy contributed to his death. His healthcare coverage was good but his time had come. That isn't politics, it's life.

He contracted Covid early May and despite 4 boosters he passed with respiratory failure...at the end of July. "Long Covid" Possibly. He followed the medical advice of his doctors and got jabbed 4 times. He never took "horse medicine" nor did he inject "fish tank cleaner".

Go ahead. Keep making fun of this. Call me an emotional cooze for mourning the passing of my dad. Try and make it"political" when you can't.

At then end of all of this exchange please look in the mirror and assess your words.

#198 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-09-13 01:55 AM | Reply

"Mine, too. The way I've always put it is I spent the first 20 years trying to be anyone but my father, and the rest of my life trying to be my father.

#197 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2023-09-13 01:51 AM"

Perfect. Unwittingly your timing is perfect. i'm seriously missing my dad tonight.

Thank you.

#199 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-09-13 01:57 AM | Reply

I guess you don't know what the word "pastiche" means because everything I've said to you is what you Deplorables say to their political enemies with no regard for how hurtful it is.

What did you learn?
Nothing.

Look in the mirror and remind yourself Snoofy can't hurt you. Unless you give him permission to.
Why did you give Snoofy permission to hurt you?

What did you learn?
Nothing.

Good night, JeffJ.

#200 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 02:01 AM | Reply

"Thank you. I've been a bit emotional this week about his passing"

The first year is always the hardest. My mom passed on Christmas Day in 1991, and the following year was a nightmare: her birthday, Mother's Day, mom & dad's anniversary, my birthday...and all the time Christmas was looming in the background. I wasn't sure how I was going to get through it...and then it hit me: I'd make a vat of her spaghetti sauce, learn to can, and jar it for some close friends. I canned about 15 quarts the first year, and gave away 10-12.

To a person, every recipient said some version of "you're doing this next year, right?"...

...and so I did. For the next 25 years. At the height, I canned over 150 quarts. A designer pal of my wife's took my dad's favorite pic of my mom and made a super-cool label, ("Big Mammu") and would change it a little every year.

And every year it got a little easier. Not easy. Just a little easier.

#201 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-09-13 02:03 AM | Reply

That is a really cool and inspiring anecdote. What an incredible way to honor and remember your mom's passing. In all seriousness, thank you for sharing all of that.

It's nice to set aside political differences every once in a while and recognize other aspects of life are more important.

That you showed up when you did was accidental. The timing of your comments was not. Thank you.

I tip my last drink in your general direction and am off to bed.

Good evening to you, Danforth.

#202 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-09-13 02:23 AM | Reply

No difference between college and cities like San Francisco. Everything the Dems 100% control, they break. The costs soar out of control and the benefits diminish over time. Literally everything the Dems control.

#203 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-09-13 03:40 AM | Reply

It's nice to see reasonable and intelligent folks like Bell, Mao and Danforth make sense

Little people like JPW and the energizer bunny will remain just that.

Little people.

Very little people.

All they manage to do is push their own buttons.

#204 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 07:41 AM | Reply

"Ever heard of the term wisdom, and how it's earned?"

That miserable POS has been cursing at that his entire life.

#205 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 07:44 AM | Reply

If Capitalism could innovate a better education system it would have done so by now.

#133 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2023-09-12 08:56 PM | FLAG:

It did. It's called Community College. A large one here now offers trade school, 2 year, and an assortment of 4 year degrees. You can knock out a 4 year there for half the interest you've paid. They have a growth model that established schools like UH do not, so UH is 8 times more expensive with a much ------ selection of classes until you go into the post grad world which in your case was a terrible investment.

#206 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 08:28 AM | Reply

And to add to the above post, they also offer classes online. A wide selection of classes in fact kids today can graduate high school with 30+ college credits can go to a community college and earn another 30 for next to nothing and then get to a four-year school with only two years left to obtain a four year degree. On top of that, college kids are being paid $15 an hour for part-time jobs which covers their rent and food.

The pitfalls illustrated in the attached article are easily avoidable for people who aren't stupid.

#207 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 08:34 AM | Reply

Really really feels like there's more to snoofs bad financial situation than 1 bad loan 25 years ago.

#208 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 08:35 AM | Reply

The answer is simple. The federal government needs to stop guaranteeing student loans, and it needs to make it so student loan debt is discharged in bankruptcy. Right now, college loans are bottomless because there is zero risk to lending money. Zero.

There needs to be the same scrutiny as to ability to repay student loans Sd there is any other loan.

No one should be taking out 300,000 in loans from NYU to fund their art history degree or their liberal arts degree. The odds they can repay such a loan are incredibly low.

As the funds dry up, colleges works have to cut costs and lower tuition to attract a student pool. The skilled trades would suddenly find themselves flush with qualified and suitable apprentices.

It would be a massive and healthy shift.

#209 | Posted by ABH at 2023-09-13 09:54 AM | Reply

"It would be more worth even more if the loan terms weren't designed to make rich bankers even richer at my expense."

If it weren't designed to make them richer, then why would they offer you a loan?

#210 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-13 09:56 AM | Reply

"I thought you thought you were supposed to be a financial genius who understands these kinds of things."

You don't have to be a genius to understand that paying as little as possible on a loan is not the way to pay off a loan.

#211 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-13 09:59 AM | Reply

"Still in Washington, D.C.: The average rent for a 1-bedroom apartment increased by 1% to $2,400, and the average rent for a 2-bedroom apartment decreased by -1% to $3,215. www.zumper.com"

How much is it in Meyerstown, just across the state line in WV?

In fact up there it might be cheaper to buy than to rent.

#212 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-13 10:11 AM | Reply

"He's being a whiny ----. Gravy, but a Midwest --------- version."

Eberly's being whiny?

How? By pointing out that Snoofy is being whiny. Which is pretty much the steady-state for Snoofy?

#213 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-13 10:32 AM | Reply

He's lived it and you haven't. In no way does that invalidate any of your opinions. By the same token you seem to proclaim he has no clue what he's talking about as he's living it in real time.

LOL the argument isn't about putting kids through college, sport.

It's about living with student loan debt, particularly since the late 2010s when changes were made to the repayment system.

You asserting he knows what it's like to pay off a mortgage because he's in the process of getting one for his kid.

Ever heard of the term wisdom, and how it's earned?

*off my soapbox*

#180 | Posted by BellRinger

You never should have gotten on it. There is nothing there worth responding to because you're just flailing about trying to make yourself relevant.

You know, whenever someone says they're something loudly and as a means of trying to control the argument, you 100% know they're NOT it, right? That little screed tells me you have vast overconfidence in your "wisdom"that isn't shared by those around you.

The funny thing, the post that started all this was me merely pointing out the reality of the situation as a counter to the 'underwater basket weaving with $300K in loans' trope. All butthurt offered in response was sneering at people making median household income and the typical expenses paid by them. Despite his supposed in depth knowledge of the topic, he never argued the math or the economic conditions they're occurring in. Just self-congratulatory sneering.

Well, here's my soapbox. F*&^ him and f*&^ you. Demanding respect you haven't earned is the biggest bitch move a guy can make.

#214 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 10:34 AM | Reply

It's awful, and I'm a victim.

Every month I have to pay lots of money towards the note.

And then everybody gets all mad at me when I don't---and they call my house and harass me and my credit goes to ----.

It's not fair.

I need relief, too.

Will you help?

Will you be my Sally Struthers and advocate for me?

#182 | Posted by Mao_Content

Show me where I advocated or even mentioned student loan relief.

In fact, you'll be hard pressed to do that even if you dig through my history because I'm not a fan of it.

I've stated as much many times here.

#215 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 10:35 AM | Reply

"Means nothing in a conversation about the effects of student loans on people's ability to build equity and comfortably have a family."

Why is that only true of student loans, and not all loans?

#216 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-13 10:36 AM | Reply

JeffJ is a collage of shopworn folk wisdom that you might get if you trained an AI on Reader's Digest.

LOL

Or if you told AI to only communicate in cliches.

#217 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 10:38 AM | Reply

-You know, whenever someone says they're something loudly and as a means of trying to control the argument, you 100% know they're NOT it, right?

You mean like when someone claims to be a scientist and an expert in pandemics and viruses?

#218 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 10:39 AM | Reply

No, you're being an overly emotional cooze. Which you literally just said when you said "I've been a bit emotional this week about his passing"

This is just locker room talk.

I've heard as much "locker room talk" mocking a guy over his father's death as I have about grabbing women by the p&^^$.

#219 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 10:40 AM | Reply

You mean like when someone claims to be a scientist and an expert in pandemics and viruses?

#218 | Posted by eberly

I am a scientist.

Never claimed to be an expert on pandemics.

Only ever claimed to be someone who studied and worked with viruses for 20+ years.

#220 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 10:40 AM | Reply

"Well, here's my soapbox. F*&^ him and f*&^ you. Demanding respect you haven't earned is the biggest bitch move a guy can make."

Nobody is demanding anything from you, poor boy.

To quote rsty ... ... ..Swallow it.

#221 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 10:41 AM | Reply

#204 | Posted by eberly

Right. You're so big (spoken like I'm talking to my 1 year old) for sneering at people making median household income.

I'm sure if Jesus came back today he'd bow in deference to you.

#222 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 10:44 AM | Reply

That miserable POS has been cursing at that his entire life.

#205 | Posted by eberly

More stupid assumptions from a stupid person.

#223 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 10:45 AM | Reply

-I am a scientist.

Congrats. LOL

#224 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 10:45 AM | Reply

-I'm sure if Jesus came back today he'd bow in deference to you.

Probably not.

But he would spot your envy from huge distance.

And it wouldn't take you 5 minutes to accuse Jesus of being a bubble dweller.

#225 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 10:48 AM | Reply

JPW is the smartest person ever. Just ask him.

#226 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-09-13 10:48 AM | Reply

"More stupid assumptions"

It's all he and you do here.

#227 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 10:48 AM | Reply

Jeff, if you feel like everyone else is a knowitall, perhaps it just means you're stupid. Just a thought.

#228 | Posted by JOE at 2023-09-13 10:52 AM | Reply

The pitfalls illustrated in the attached article are easily avoidable for people who aren't stupid.

#207 | Posted by eberly

You do realize that this is all relatively new, right? A four year stint at a state school wasn't prohibitively expensive ten years ago. With scholarships it wasn't 5 years ago. The economic turmoil of the last 3 years has probably changed that.

www.bestcolleges.com

The article is pushing the same BS trope Madbomber did by choosing a student going to UC Berkley.

www.collegetuitioncompare.com

#229 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 10:53 AM | Reply

Why is that only true of student loans, and not all loans?

#216 | Posted by madbomber

Tell me, what other loan do you have to be permanently disable and completely incapable of working to discharge?

You're not a serious person asking this question as this topic has been discussed ad nauseum here and you definitely know the unique status of student debt as far as loans go.

#230 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 10:59 AM | Reply

Nobody is demanding anything from you, poor boy.

Oh you are most definitely demanding respect for your *ahem* wisdom.

It chaps your ass that you're not treated deferentially. Must happen IRL too because you've just been oozing miserable bitterness all over this thread.

#231 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 11:00 AM | Reply

JPW is the smartest person ever. Just ask him.

#226 | Posted by BellRinger

And we're back to this whine again.

Nobody is stopping you from understanding this topic, jeffy. The key is admitting to yourself that maybe, just maybe, you don't have as much a clue as you think you do.

You blathered on about life experience and wisdom, how much experience do you have paying off student loans in the last twenty years? Any?

#232 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 11:01 AM | Reply

-I am a scientist.

Congrats. LOL

#224 | Posted by eberly

You're the idiot who said it.

#233 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 11:02 AM | Reply

BTW anyone notice something with total student loan debt?

www.bestcolleges.com

Better view here

educationdata.org

Anything about that timing of linear increase of total debt burden over time stand out to anyone?

I wish they had pre-2006 on there. I'm willing to bet it wasn't going up by about $90 billion dollars a year.

#234 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 11:19 AM | Reply

Oh, and the actual people with the blockbuster loans in the hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Professionals with advanced degrees.

Lawyers. Doctors. Vets. Pharmacists.

People who most definitely have the ability to pay and who have high earnings because of their education.

www.nerdwallet.com

That the average debt for a bachelor's degree is ~$28,000 (has changed a bit, need to remember that) shows just how small the number of students attending expensive four year schools are compared to the total pool.

Another aspect is that a minority of students at those schools pay sticker price. The students who don't need loans to go there.

#235 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 11:22 AM | Reply

*The students who do don't need loans...

#236 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 11:29 AM | Reply

229

Your link is referencing tuition costs 20 years ago and 60 years ago

Not three years ago

It's not new.

#237 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 11:30 AM | Reply

"Oh, and the actual people with the blockbuster loans in the hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Professionals with advanced degrees.

Lawyers. Doctors. Vets. Pharmacists.

People who most definitely have the ability to pay and who have high earnings because of their education."

IOW, NOT you nor Snoofy.

You have the debt ... ... just not the earnings to go along with it??

#238 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 11:35 AM | Reply

IOW, NOT you nor Snoofy.

You have the debt ... ... just not the earnings to go along with it??

#238 | Posted by eberly

More stupid assumptions from a stupid person.

#239 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 11:37 AM | Reply

Lawyers. Doctors. Vets. Pharmacists.
People who most definitely have the ability to pay and who have high earnings because of their education.
www.nerdwallet.com
#235 | POSTED BY JPW

Young lawyers, vets and pharmacists don't make as much as you think.

Most make around $100,000 except starting lawyers who are closer to $80,000.

With a $100,000 student loan at 5-8% interest, the interest alone each year is $5,000-$8,000. Some rates are now at 10-12% for private student loans.

At $100,000, your take home is about $70,000.

A 10 year student loan would be $12,000 to $15,000 payment per year for 10 years. That's a rather huge hit (17-20%).

And if you think you can graduate with these programs with only $100,000 in student loans, you need to look at a calendar and remember what year it is.

That's a huge buying power hit. You aren't buying a home and miss generating home equity. You aren't saving for retirement. This means you are having to spend more later in life to make up for it and hurting buying power then. So you are way behind your parents' generation.

And this only applies if you never lose your job.

#240 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-09-13 11:37 AM | Reply

Oh, and the actual people with the blockbuster loans in the hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Professionals with advanced degrees.

Seems weird to make such a blanket statement. I'm sure sometimes that's true, but my undergrad would cost nearly $200k just for a bachelor's degree today, plus housing.

#241 | Posted by JOE at 2023-09-13 11:39 AM | Reply

Your link is referencing tuition costs 20 years ago and 60 years ago

Not three years ago

It's not new.

#237 | Posted by eberly

The first link is references everything from 60 years ago. It's called context.

It also shows that even if you paid the entire bill with loans, you'd only have ~$60K in debt from 2009 to now.

So where are all those lesbian dance theory majors with $200K debt coming from? Oh, that's right, your ass.

#242 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 11:42 AM | Reply

People who most definitely have the ability to pay

Again, not always true. I knew lawyers coming out of law school who were making $40-50k, and others who struggled to find work at all and wound up in other sectors. Not every lawyer is rich. I'm sure this is true in other professional fields as well.

#243 | Posted by JOE at 2023-09-13 11:43 AM | Reply

#240 | Posted by Sycophant

I understand that.

My comment and links are geared towards dispelling the ridiculous notion that it's normal for people to have high debt with low earning potential degrees.

Just trying to splash some cold water on the ignorance many of the loudest on this thread hold so dear.

#244 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 11:45 AM | Reply

Seems weird to make such a blanket statement. I'm sure sometimes that's true, but my undergrad would cost nearly $200k just for a bachelor's degree today, plus housing.

#241 | Posted by JOE

I'm not living on the extremes of the bell curve. That's not particularly helpful in understanding the situation.

Oh, and that's at sticker price. How much of that actually gets paid by the average student?

#245 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 11:46 AM | Reply

#243 | Posted by JOE

Again, not interested in dwelling on exceptions.

BTW did those lawyers come from big time schools charging big time bucks? Or were they more likely from smaller, less expensive schools?

In my field, how high you start is directly related to how prestigious your training institution was/is.

#246 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 11:49 AM | Reply

I'm not living on the extremes of the bell curve.

No, you're just excluding them entirely by claiming people with professional degrees can all pay their loans. Obviously i'm only talking about my own experience, but if i alone knew several people who didn't fit your narrative i'm guessing they weren't the only ones.

BTW did those lawyers come from big time schools charging big time bucks?

Maybe you didn't know this but almost all law schools are expensive. This was a mid tier school and even back then the tuition was pushing 30k/year. If you borrowed your way through that and add on housing and undergrad loans, the bills aren't cheap when payments start.

#247 | Posted by JOE at 2023-09-13 11:54 AM | Reply

No, you're just excluding them entirely by claiming people with professional degrees can all pay their loans. Obviously i'm only talking about my own experience, but if i alone knew several people who didn't fit your narrative i'm guessing they weren't the only ones.

I've been talking about averages. Because that's how you most correctly assess the situation.

And the point was that high loans are most often from professional degrees.

But please, keep whining about a point I didn't even make.

Maybe you didn't know this but almost all law schools are expensive. This was a mid tier school and even back then the tuition was pushing 30k/year. If you borrowed your way through that and add on housing and undergrad loans, the bills aren't cheap when payments start.

Answer this simple question-was that $100K+ loan amount from a professional degree?

#248 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 12:07 PM | Reply

Also, are you unaware of income driven payment plans?

If they were paying full amount for payments they were doing it wrong.

#249 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 12:09 PM | Reply

That's a huge buying power hit. You aren't buying a home and miss generating home equity. You aren't saving for retirement. This means you are having to spend more later in life to make up for it and hurting buying power then. So you are way behind your parents' generation.
And this only applies if you never lose your job.

#240 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT AT 2023-09-13 11:37 AM | FLAG:

That's the choice. Not sure where the expectation that you get the best of everything comes from other than entitlement. Literally just entitlement based on what baby boomers got, while ignoring that it took a World War for the boomer's parents to drive suburbanization. Those same people end up far ahead of their lesser educated peers over time. The earnings gap between education level increases with age.

#250 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 12:09 PM | Reply

Buying something that costs as much as a Porsche 911, except unlike a depreciating toy, it unlocks lifetime higher wages with most of the financial benefit coming 15-25 years after you graduate. There's worse deals.

#251 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 12:13 PM | Reply

Not to mention many of those professions don't require a solid retirement nest egg up front.

A lawyer/doctor/vet/pharmacist's ability to earn isn't going to be inhibited by a shot back, blown out knees, carpal tunneled wrists.

Can the same be said for someone in the trades or in a blue collar job outside of the trades?

#252 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 12:15 PM | Reply

That's the choice.

#250 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

No, it's not.

Our country depends on educated workers. If they start making a different choice, we are screwed.

And for workers without college degrees, they are getting left behind with lower and lower wages.

I'm not sure how this is so hard to understand.

#253 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-09-13 12:16 PM | Reply

Buying something that costs as much as a Porsche 911, except unlike a depreciating toy, it unlocks lifetime higher wages with most of the financial benefit coming 15-25 years after you graduate. There's worse deals.

#251 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

No one needs a Porsche.

We need people with degrees.

And it isn't unlocking the higher wages like it did before because the wages are depressed and the costs are getting so high.

Again, you have to be pretty simple not to understand this.

#254 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-09-13 12:18 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

And yes, I'm well aware of the impact of compounding interest.

#255 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 12:19 PM | Reply

Maybe you didn't know this but almost all law schools are expensive. This was a mid tier school and even back then the tuition was pushing 30k/year. If you borrowed your way through that and add on housing and undergrad loans, the bills aren't cheap when payments start.

#247 | POSTED BY JOE

No wonder lawyers cost so much.

Got here late but I wanted to say that if I was still hiring (retired now) when I sorted thru the job applications for a position on my team if you had a college degree in computer sciences your application went to the top. Right next to to college AND experience. Experience counted as much or even more if it was in the right field. A two year degree and experience in the field was the ideal combo for me.

#256 | Posted by donnerboy at 2023-09-13 12:22 PM | Reply

No, it's not.

Our country depends on educated workers. If they start making a different choice, we are screwed.

#253 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT AT 2023-09-13 12:16 PM | FLAG:

Yes, it is lol. Your viewpoint is too narrow.

Our country depends on skilled labor. There's more to skilled labor than churning out PhDs.

#257 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 12:25 PM | Reply

And yes, I'm well aware of the impact of compounding interest.

#255 | POSTED BY JPW

Are you sure?

Because income based repayments mean higher payments down the road and a much higher overall cost.

And you have to hope your loan qualifies because most private loans don't. Sadly government subsidized loans don't cover much of the cost of college.

#258 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-09-13 12:27 PM | Reply

Yes, it is lol. Your viewpoint is too narrow.
Our country depends on skilled labor. There's more to skilled labor than churning out PhDs.

#257 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

We aren't even talking about just PhDs. This applies to college undergrad degrees as well.

Where do you think most of our skilled labor comes from?

#259 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-09-13 12:28 PM | Reply

Because income based repayments mean higher payments down the road and a much higher overall cost.

I used income based repayment for quite some time.

Yes, I know what happens.

#260 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 12:29 PM | Reply

Our country depends on skilled labor. There's more to skilled labor than churning out PhDs.

#257 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

PhDs don't do labor very well. Even if it is "skilled" labor.

In my experience someone with a PhD was not a good hire for my team of technicians.

I did hire one once and I don't think I got a weeks worth of work out of him before he retired on disability.

#261 | Posted by donnerboy at 2023-09-13 12:37 PM | Reply

PhDs don't do labor very well. Even if it is "skilled" labor.

Can you even think of a field where it's primarily labor-based but requires a PhD?

Seems like once you get past a Master's degree you're relegated to the office...

#262 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 12:39 PM | Reply

-So where are all those lesbian dance theory majors with $200K debt coming from? Oh, that's right, your ass.

I'm not complaining about any debt. Not mine, not yours, not snoofys...nobody.

YOU are one complaining about everyone's debt.

I'm the one in the bubble....remember?

#263 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 12:44 PM | Reply

-Just trying to splash some cold water on the ignorance many of the loudest on this thread hold so dear.

IOW, you're going to die on the hill by being wrong over and over and over.

Good luck with that, Mr. Scientist.

#264 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 12:46 PM | Reply

I've been talking about averages

That's not what the comment i responded to sounded like, but i'll admit to not reading this entire thread.

Answer this simple question-was that $100K+ loan amount from a professional degree?

I'm not sure i understand why you're asking that, but people can owe $100k from law school alone or even more than that if they borrowed their way through undergrad.

Also, are you unaware of income driven payment plans?

Yes. I'm also aware that private lenders (which most non-rich law students have to at least partially rely upon) aren't required to offer them.

#265 | Posted by JOE at 2023-09-13 12:50 PM | Reply

Where do you think most of our skilled labor comes from?

#259 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT AT 2023-09-13 12:28 PM | FLAG:

People in their 40s. Not college grads. They have education but no skill.

#266 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 12:51 PM | Reply

-Because income based repayments mean higher payments down the road and a much higher overall cost.

that looks like a very bad way to lower your payments with consequences later.

#267 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 12:51 PM | Reply

As far as undergrads, yeah, I already mentioned earlier that choice is the #1 part of it. You can get a bachelors from community colleges nowadays and not break $12k in your pursuit of it.

#268 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 12:52 PM | Reply

YOU are one complaining about everyone's debt.

I'm the one in the bubble....remember?

#263 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Pointing out that reality is far from the extreme exception bordering on fantasy example that's usually trotted out isn't whining.

#269 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 12:53 PM | Reply

IOW, you're going to die on the hill by being wrong over and over and over.

Good luck with that, Mr. Scientist.

#264 | POSTED BY EBERLY

What have I said that's wrong?

#270 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 12:54 PM | Reply

I'm not sure i understand why you're asking that, but people can owe $100k from law school alone or even more than that if they borrowed their way through undergrad.

The point you're jumping in on was my showing the distribution of loan debt.

It began and ended with loan balances in the six figures are almost entirely from people with graduate/professional degrees who gain higher earning potential from those degrees.

The myth of the BA in feminism studies costing hundreds of thousands of dollars isn't a real example that's worth arguing over.

#271 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 12:56 PM | Reply

#268 when did that start?

Back when I was college age CCs were for gen ed credits, certificates or technical programs and associates degrees.

#272 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 12:58 PM | Reply

Back in the day, I hated high school because it was boring as all hell. Not a lot of learning going on.

So as a jr, I got a GED, petitioned a local jr college for admission with tests and an essay, graduated, and went on to a university and got a couple of degrees.

Of course, it only cost a couple of grand a semester back then for everything, and I could make that in summers driving 18 wheelers.

Not so cheap today.

#273 | Posted by Corky at 2023-09-13 01:02 PM | Reply

Back in the day, I hated high school because it was boring as all hell. Not a lot of learning going on.

So as a jr, I got a GED, petitioned a local jr college for admission with tests and an essay, graduated, and went on to a university and got a couple of degrees.

Of course, it only cost a couple of grand a semester back then for everything, and I could make that in summers driving 18 wheelers.

Not so cheap today.

#274 | Posted by Corky at 2023-09-13 01:02 PM | Reply

Where do you think most of our skilled labor comes from?
#259 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT AT 2023-09-13 12:28 PM | FLAG:
People in their 40s. Not college grads. They have education but no skill.
#266 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

This might be one of the dumbest things ever written.

But I'm sure you're 20 years of doing construction qualify you to teach high school history, handle accounting, do HR work, be a nurse, do IT, handle engineering, etc.

The majority of skilled jobs require a college education. If you can just learn it in the field, there's lot of competition and it doesn't pay very well.

#275 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-09-13 01:07 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#275 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT
#266 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

Blue collar skilled labor vs white collar skilled labor.

#276 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-09-13 01:13 PM | Reply

It began and ended with loan balances in the six figures are almost entirely from people with graduate/professional degrees who gain higher earning potential from those degrees

Fair enough. I'm genuinely curious how many people with 6-figure debt don't have professional degrees, and how many who do aren't earning enough to pay their loans in a manner that won't have them saddled with 25 years worth of capitalized interest, but not curious enough to bother researching it.

#277 | Posted by JOE at 2023-09-13 01:18 PM | Reply

Blue collar skilled labor vs white collar skilled labor.

#276 | POSTED BY ONEIRONAUT AT 2023-09-13 01:13 PM | FLAG:

The community colleges here produce both. You can get a BS at the same school you learn to run a CNC lathe. Cheaply. It's the growth model. Legacy colleges, the ivy league, are vehemently anti-growth.

#278 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 01:23 PM | Reply

I don't even know what Syc's point is besides "WE NEED COLLEGE!". Obviously. The massive skilled labor gap in the blue collar world still exists and has to be filled and more white collar doesn't solve that. Sycs solution? Nationalize the entire system? Loan forgiveness of a bad system? Mass reform? Removing federal backing and evaluating loans on their true credit?

#279 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 01:27 PM | Reply

I don't even know what Syc's point is besides "WE NEED COLLEGE!". Obviously. The massive skilled labor gap in the blue collar world still exists and has to be filled and more white collar doesn't solve that. Sycs solution? Nationalize the entire system? Loan forgiveness of a bad system? Mass reform? Removing federal backing and evaluating loans on their true credit?

#279 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

My point is the majority of the skilled labor force requires a college degree. Welcome to the modern economy.

But we've priced those degrees out of reach.

Solutions?

Put money back into colleges on a per student basis. It's been decreasing on a per student basis for decades.
Ramp up federally subsidized loans to bring the interest rates down or eliminate them entirely.
Invest in a strong income based repayment plan that forgives remaining debt after 10-15 years.
Pay people a decent wage.

College doesn't have to be free. But it should be affordable.

#280 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-09-13 01:36 PM | Reply

Don't disagree, syc seems to believe skilled only means degreed, looking at his myopic responses.

I imagine CC will get more expensive as they see the gravy train of deferring the costs via loans. Just a hunch

The solution imo is remove much of the money from the system.

Require universities/cc to back the loans.

Universities have no skin in the game.

There is a thinking that Universities don't create soldiers to make wealth they build soldiers to maintain it.

It's wealth that creates university not the other way around.

#281 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-09-13 01:39 PM | Reply

#280 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT AT 2023-09-13 01:36 PM | FLAG:

I disagree with your point. Blue collar jobs are 70% of the economy. You solutions also look like pouring gasoline on a fire and would inflate tuitions at a pace that makes the current fees look paltry.

#282 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 01:51 PM | Reply

#281 | POSTED BY ONEIRONAUT

"Don't disagree, syc seems to believe skilled only means degreed, looking at his myopic responses."

Reading comprehension issues? I said the majority of skilled labor requires a college degree. We discussed skilled labor coming from work experience. Starting out with a lie is a bad sign.

"The solution imo is remove much of the money from the system."

So let the students bear even more of the cost? Genius idea.

"Require universities/cc to back the loans."

Do you have any idea how impossible that is? Or the cost?

"It's wealth that creates university not the other way around."

Where do you think that wealth comes from?

It doesn't sound like you have any idea of how the economy or education works. It's like you're stuck in the 19th century.

#283 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-09-13 01:54 PM | Reply

Blue collar jobs are 70% of the economy.

#282 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

...They are about 15-20% of the workforce. Not 70%.

#284 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-09-13 02:00 PM | Reply

No, that the measurement for goods-producing vs service-providing jobs.

#285 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 02:45 PM | Reply

When you define it that way, a hotel maid is now a white collar job in the service industry.

#286 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 02:47 PM | Reply

No, that the measurement for goods-producing vs service-providing jobs.

#285 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

That's not the definition of blue collar but it doesn't matter.

The fact is about 60% of US jobs require a college degree.

Some of those may be blue collar jobs.

#287 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-09-13 03:14 PM | Reply

"My point is the majority of the skilled labor force requires a college degree. Welcome to the modern economy. But we've priced those degrees out of reach."

That's actually not an economic possibility.

If the needs of society demand a worker with a specific skillset, then the person with that skillset will be compensated based on the market clearing rate as a function of supply and demand. Universities could charge three times what they do. The result would be society choosing that whatever those "skilled" workers had to offer wasn't worth what they were willing to pay, in which case people would simply stop chasing those degrees.

It's math.

If the cost of getting the degree is less fiscally beneficial than not getting a degree, then you don't get a degree. But what we've seen here, even from Snoofy, is that net earnings are higher with a college degree when compared to those without...they just don't feel like they should have to pay the cost of the degree. It interferes with them being able to by a house or a new car or whatever.

#288 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-13 03:17 PM | Reply

"Some of those may be blue collar jobs."

Yeah. There are a lot of "blue collar" jobs out there that pay far more than "white collar" jobs.

A 25-year-old welder in the oil path in North Dakota is going to make gobs more than a 25-year-old art curator in SoHo.

As I mentioned earlier, my daughter is a new freshman at the University of Arizona. She's doing ROTC and wants to go into the military as a pilot.

She has scholarships, and I have money, but I told her she needed to be prepared to take out student loans. She freaked out and said she would not go to college if it required taking out ANY loans.

Then, I pointed out to her the difference between median income of a college grad and a high school grad (2023):

HS Diploma: $34k

College (BS): $81K (for STEM, she is a statistics major)

So, assuming graduation at 22 and working to 65, if she did not go to college, her earnings would be $1.462 million. If she got her degree, it would be $3.483M. So her getting a degree, over the course of her lifetime, would earn her $2.021M more.

Even if she maxed out her approved $240k student loan offer, what are the odds that over the course of 43 years she would end up pay more than $2 million on it?

Like I said...math. Loans make sense.

I think what we see here is people bitching because they were going to make nearly the same amount of money, whether they did or did not go to college. Based on what they chose to study.

#289 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-13 03:35 PM | Reply

The pitfalls illustrated in the attached article are easily avoidable for people who aren't stupid.
#207 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Eberly has no thoughts on fixing these problems.

He lives to blame stupid people for being stupid.

There isn't even a problem to be fixed, from the Republican point of view on student loans or spiraling consumer debt in general.

Who needs consumers? Consumer spending is only 70% of GDP.

Meanwhile, Republicans are mad that people are still living with their parents into their 30s. Because of their stupid debts.

Stupid Americans doing stupid things with guns?
Republicans shrug their shoulders about that too.

It's a political philosophy of not giving a ---- and telling yourself nah, I'm not really my brother's keeper after all.

It's stupid.

#290 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 03:50 PM | Reply

"It's a political philosophy of not giving a ---- and telling yourself nah, I'm not really my brother's keeper after all."

Not when your brother is an utter ------- ------ incapable of making good decisions.

...or maybe its just that selfishness convinces one brother that another brother unilaterally owes them something.

If you considered yourself your brother's keeper, you might not be so bitter about paying back the money they loaned you.

#291 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-13 04:15 PM | Reply

I think what we see here is people bitching because they were going to make nearly the same amount of money, whether they did or did not go to college. Based on what they chose to study.
#289 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

The averages you listed earlier don't support that.

#292 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 04:24 PM | Reply

If you considered yourself your brother's keeper, you might not be so bitter about paying back the money they loaned you.
#291 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Again, it's paying back twice what I borrowed.

It's paying double what I borrowed, to a company that was gifted the money by Uncle Sam in the first place.

#293 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 04:27 PM | Reply

"The averages you listed earlier don't support that."

Sounds like math.

Show me.

#294 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-13 04:36 PM | Reply

"It's paying double what I borrowed, to a company that was gifted the money by Uncle Sam in the first place."

Again, has it been more or less fiscally beneficial for you to have taken the loan?

Again, math.

#295 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-13 04:38 PM | Reply

You're discussing math with madbomber?

The idiot joined the armed forces after flunking out of high school and having zero options available.

But. If you ever need to dig a latrine, he's your man.

#296 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-09-13 04:40 PM | Reply

"Again, has it been more or less fiscally beneficial for you to have taken the loan?"

This was answered yesterday.
The answer is, it would be more fiscally beneficial if the terms were more like, say, my car loan.

#297 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 05:04 PM | Reply

Since it's a requirement to state the obvious:

My car loan at 1.99% has a minimum monthly payment such that eventually the loan gets paid off.

My student loans at rates between 5.4% and 6.8% are structured in such a way that the minimum monthly payment set by the loan servicing company didn't even cover the accrued interest every month.

#298 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 05:26 PM | Reply

Interesting that in almost 300 comments not one person mentioned that Joe Biden (the banker's senator from Delaware) is to blame for laws such as in 2005 finance.yahoo.com to disallow bankruptcy etc.

Biden always took care of the banks and crefit card companies and Democrats took care of woke academia. They let them raise tuition while paying university CEOs and all others in the fold generously. No Democrat put the onus on academia to make tuition more affordable. What changed that made tuition go from affordable in 60's, 70s, 80s, to outrageous in 2000s?

#299 | Posted by Robson at 2023-09-13 08:54 PM | Reply

Why didn't Robson mention his child-raping hero's fraudulent Trump U?

#300 | Posted by reinheitsgebot at 2023-09-13 09:04 PM | Reply

#298 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

One is a loan on a recoverable asset the other is an unsecured loan.

Be thankful its cheaper than credit cards.

#301 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-09-13 09:10 PM | Reply

No Democrat put the onus on academia to make tuition more affordable.

I do, I just don't see why Lumpers are so blind to the problem.

#302 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-09-13 09:11 PM | Reply

What changed that made tuition go from affordable in 60's, 70s, 80s, to outrageous in 2000s?

It didn't get really bad until Obama.
www.investors.com

#303 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-09-13 09:11 PM | Reply

The funny thing is Obama did a lot of damage to the middle class.

Student Loans.
Medical Care.
Size of Trucks.

I am not sure why he's so revered.

#304 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-09-13 09:13 PM | Reply

www.investors.com
"The Real Student Loan Crisis Is The One Obama Created"
04/16/2015

There's a Student Loan Crisis?
I haven't heard any Republicans say there's a Student Loan Crisis.
At least not since 2015.

#305 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 09:34 PM | Reply

"One is a loan on a recoverable asset the other is an unsecured loan."

What kind of security would a loan servicer need on money given to them by the government? There's no loss if the loan doesn't get paid back because they didn't originate it until Uncle Sam handed them a check for the loan amount.

#306 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 09:36 PM | Reply

-Eberly has no thoughts on fixing these problems.

Fair point.

Instead, I have insight on how to AVOID these problems.

Snoofy has no thoughts on how to avoid these problems.

he's an expert on having these problems. Not fixing them nor avoiding them.

Poor thing ... ...

#307 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 09:44 PM | Reply

"He lives to blame stupid people for being stupid."

I blame Snoofy for his choices.

#308 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 09:46 PM | Reply

"Snoofy has no thoughts on how to avoid these problems."

I agree with all the ones that have been suggested. I recommend community college, or joining the military if that's your thing, and they'll educate you for free.

But that doesn't do anything for the people who didn't avoid these problems.

Telling a teacher in DC she's stupid and made bad choices isn't your strongest work, Eberly.

#309 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 09:47 PM | Reply

-Telling a teacher in DC she's stupid and made bad choices isn't your strongest work, Eberly.

Calling you stupid isn't either.

I'm not "working" here. Are you going to pay me to solve your problems?

#310 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 09:51 PM | Reply

-Telling a teacher in DC she's stupid and made bad choices isn't your strongest work, Eberly.

Telling some red state redneck they're stupid is good work?

Because that's done a million times here.

No crying from you about that.

#311 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-13 09:53 PM | Reply

So you really just don't have any thoughts beyond "it's stupid" and "they made bad choices."

Killing the middle class': millions in US brace for student loan payments after Covid pause
www.theguardian.com
Thu 9 Dec 2021

Sensational headline aside, there's nothing wrong with killing the middle class, from your ivory tower perspective? We should just let nature run its course?

#312 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 09:59 PM | Reply

"Telling some red state redneck they're stupid is good work?"

You mean like Robson and Boaz? There's no reaching those goons.

But there's a difference between calling someone stupid, and saying someone made stupid choices.

The difference is whether they learned from their mistakes.

If you really think it's stupid that people are becoming teachers, or that only rich people's kids should become teachers, well, I'd be surprised.

But you like to think you're too cool for school so I guess it wouldn't really surprise me after all. Just a disappointing new low on the slow descent you've been on for the past six or eight years.

#313 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 10:05 PM | Reply

If you really don't think the nation's economic plight can be summed up through the simple observation that wages have not kept up with productivity,

You just might be a Republican.

#314 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 10:07 PM | Reply

Telling some red state redneck they're stupid is good work?
Because that's done a million times here.
No crying from you about that.
#311 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Crying from me?
Is there crying from them about that?
I'm not going to start inventing economic problems for non-college-educated white men and their truck payments if they can't be bothered.

But If you want to argue
Why student loan forgiveness,
What about truck loan forgiveness,

Go right ahead.
But you'd be lying about supporting it.

#315 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 10:12 PM | Reply

I do, I just don't see why Lumpers are so blind to the problem.

#302 | POSTED BY ONEIRONAUT

They're not.

You just want to feel special and act like you've had a unique insight.

Sorry, sport, you haven't.

#316 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 01:24 AM | Reply

"The answer is, it would be more fiscally beneficial if the terms were more like, say, my car loan."

IOW, you're just bitching because you think you're entitled to more money.

Should the banks eliminate interest on your credit cards as well? Don't you deserve it?

#317 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 01:27 AM | Reply

What changed that made tuition go from affordable in 60's, 70s, 80s, to outrageous in 2000s?
It didn't get really bad until Obama.
www.investors.com

#303 | POSTED BY ONEIRONAUT

Your link doesn't say what you think it says.

www.bestcolleges.com

Tuition increases are pretty linear since 1980. Trendline doesn't change when Obama became POTUS.

As usual, you're full of s&^% but are too stupid to realize it.

#318 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 01:27 AM | Reply

I am not sure why he's so revered.

#304 | POSTED BY ONEIRONAUT

Because you're too stupid to realize you're not even addressing the point.

Idiot.

#319 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 01:28 AM | Reply

Snoofy, there are a lot of successful people here. Maybe instead of continuing to bitch and moan, you could reach out to them offline and they could make suggestions on how to get ahead in life. I think most would recommend making higher, probably much high payments on your student loans and get those things paid off. $600/month and in six years you're probably pretty close to debt free.

#320 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 01:31 AM | Reply

#311 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Awww we know eberly's problem.

She's a redneck moron who also happens to be the second most loathsome creature on the planet-an insurance salesman.

Kid probably went to college, realized what a turd she is and told her so.

Only something like that could strike butthurt so deep as we've seen from her on this thread.

#321 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 01:31 AM | Reply

IOW, you're just bitching because you think you're entitled to more money.
Should the banks eliminate interest on your credit cards as well? Don't you deserve it?

#317 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

You're just inserting your bias here because you've already made a conclusion absent evidence or real experience.

What if bankruptcy laws changed such that an individual couldn't discharge ANY debt via bankruptcy? Let's make every single loan, including existing loans, the same as student loans.

What would be your view then?

#322 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 01:36 AM | Reply

#320 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Ah yes. The condescension of a gubmint benny collector acting as if his "wisdom" isn't common knowledge.

Here's the problem-

1. you're a phony
2. MakInG ExTrA PaMyEnTs isn't insightful advice

Why do righties always swoop in, say obvious, common knowledge ---- then pat themselves on the back for being a "Jeanyus"?

Tell you what bruh, when you're not a gubmint hating, gubmint leech living the good life off of Euro society you can be condescending, capiche?

#323 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 01:40 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It's funny. The easily most rabidly anti-government people I know are the most dependent on government.

Yet not a single one will walk away from it.

And most will openly mock those who make their way through education.

#324 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 01:45 AM | Reply

It's funny. The easily most rabidly anti-government people I know are the most dependent on government

Who?

#325 | Posted by Mao_Content at 2023-09-14 01:52 AM | Reply

You want names? Stupid question.

Ironically, most of them work for the department of corrections. Their day job is literally being the most intrusive government can be in someone's life.

Some are here. Mad and boaz who both collect government paychecks but hate everything gubmine. Two people who owe everything they have right now to the taxpayers of the United States.

#326 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 01:56 AM | Reply

A "Department of Corrections" employs folks who watch after the -------- who are incarcerated because they broke laws.

Mad and Boaz used their talents in Aviation and Signals in the public sector to actually do something of worth and value in the form of public service. The existence of men like them is why I consent to paying taxes.

That's a very different thing than pretending every dumbass Leftist public policy agenda is some kind of moral imperative that requires the same devotion of my tax resources.


#327 | Posted by Mao_Content at 2023-09-14 02:35 AM | Reply

It doesn't make sense for a young person to graduate from college with a mortgage and no property.

School should be free/cheap.

Enough of Repubican economics. Decades of failure won't ever make it successful.

#328 | Posted by chuffy at 2023-09-14 02:46 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The existence of men like them is why I consent to paying taxes.

BS. We see their stupidity here every single day.

Without the military welfare they'd be worthless punk ass sacs of ----.

A "Department of Corrections" employs folks who watch after the ----bags who are incarcerated because they broke laws.

Still the tip of the spear of government intervention.

Your subjective nonsense is what makes this acceptable relative to what the J6 bitches are experiencing.

#329 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 03:08 AM | Reply

Regardless, the majority of the military, ie government paid bitches, are against government.

Let that sink in.

Then let what that means for the level of abject, selfish stupidity that exists sink in.

#330 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 03:12 AM | Reply

It's funny. The easily most rabidly anti-government people I know are the most dependent on government
Who?
#325 | POSTED BY MAO_CONTENT

I'll put it in terms you can see and hear and smell in the world around you:
The fans of the state college football team.

#331 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 03:19 AM | Reply

The existence of men like them is why I consent to paying taxes.

You pay taxes because you have no other choice.

#332 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-09-14 03:21 AM | Reply

"You pay taxes because you have no other choice."

You could go completely off grid I guess. And steal stuff.

If you spend stolen money and you pay sales tax, did you pay taxes?
This is the kind of question that keeps Libertarians up at night.

#333 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 03:27 AM | Reply

"You're just inserting your bias here because you've already made a conclusion absent evidence or real experience."

There is ample experience right in this thread, from those who have successfully taken out and paid off student loans, as well as those who took them, but feel like they shouldn't have to abide by the terms of the loan agreement.

#334 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 05:03 AM | Reply

"Some are here. Mad and boaz who both collect government paychecks but hate everything gubmine. Two people who owe everything they have right now to the taxpayers of the United States."

What makes you think I hate the government?

I did 24 years on active duty, in return for which I, like any employee, was offered a benefits and compensation package. Now I work for a private company that also offers benefits and compensation that are, believe it or not, quite a bit better than what I was earning as a Lt Col in the AF.

You seem to be suggesting that the US government should be offering benefits simply because one is capable of drawing breath. The problem with that is that the government has no significant revenue streams outside of taxpayers. Your position seems to be that the taxpayers or other stakeholders should be forced to sacrifice for someone else, who provides nothing of value in return.

Like forgiving Snoofy's loans so that they have more walkin' around money.

#335 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 05:10 AM | Reply

"It doesn't make sense for a young person to graduate from college with a mortgage and no property."

They choose to do so. They don't have to.

#336 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 05:12 AM | Reply

"Without the military welfare they'd be worthless punk ass sacs of ----."

I'm no longer in the military but based on what I can deduce from your comments and those who share your opinions is that I'm doing quite well comparatively.

Not as good as my buddies who went off to Fly for Delta and American. They'll top out and half a million a year before they retire out of that gig.

More worthless punk ass sacs of ----?

#337 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 05:14 AM | Reply

"Then let what that means for the level of abject, selfish stupidity that exists sink in."

It's selfish to get a paycheck for doing work for the government, but it's not selfish to demand that the government give you taxpayer dollars while providing nothing in return?

#338 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 05:15 AM | Reply

Snoofy, I often find that people who want to try to control the economy to fit some moral concepts they possess tend to have a poor grasp of the actual facts, and lend little effort to skeptical, objective analysis. This is true with not just economics, but the economic arena is an area that particularly affects everyone, so such people's perceptions, and the votes they cast in response, is relevant to us all. These perceptions, or misperceptions, are often blown out of proportion, overly inflated, or are completely counterfactual.

For instance, you said that the middle class was "slowly shrinking over time" and in fact expressed incredulity at anybody who failed to perceive what you clearly seem to think is an obvious trend.

Perhaps we should look at the facts instead of narratives, carry out simple, objective analysis, and tailor our views to the facts.

According to the Pew Research Center, as portions of adult US population, from 1971 to 2021:
...the "lower income" grew from 25% to 29%.
...the "middle income" shrank from 61% to 50%.
...the "upper income" grew from 14% to 21%.
(Source: "How the American middle class has changed in the past five decades". authors Kochhar, Sechopoulos).

I haven't looked for data about changes from 2021 to 2023. Maybe I will sometime, but for now let's just use this.

Now, is the kind of rhetoric you've clearly been listening to, and passing on, really warranted? Is there a crisis of "middle class shrinkage"? Is there an economic "problem" here?

Well, while it is true that the middle class shrank, you will notice that of the 11% of the population that shifted out of the middle class from 1971 to 2021, 7 of those 11 percentage points actually moved into the UPPER income echelon (hence the increase from 14% to 21% of upper income earners), and only 4 of those 11 percentage points moved into the "lower income" earners.

This is not a crisis. What we are in fact talking about is that over the course of FIFTY YEARS 4% of the population moved from "middle income" to "lower income" - 4%. The rest of the change (the majority in fact) has been POSITIVE - people either staying "middle income" or moving into the "upper income" brackets.

Your entire narrative rests substantively on a 4%-age point negative change that took place over FIFTY YEARS, and completely ignores the fact that the majority of the change that occurred was actually POSITIVE for more people! By a substantial margin! Can anybody even say with a straight face that a 4%-age point change over FIFTY years is something that random variation couldn't substantially impact?

Moreover, that same Pew article notes following:

Median Incomes, 2020 Dollars, Scaled to Reflect 3-person Household
Upper Income (1970 | 2020 | % change): 130,008 | 219,572 | 69%
Middle Income (1970 | 2020 | % change): 59,934 | 90,131 | 50%
Lower Income (1970 | 2020 | % change): 20,604 | 29,963 | 45%

You know, while I'm not happy that 4% of the population moved from making 60k in 1970 down to 30k in 2020, I am VERY happy for the 7% of people who moved from making 60k in 1970 to making 219k in 2020.

I've heard you say in other comments things akin to "we need an economic model that keeps incomes up with productivity" - as if you believe the government can - or should - just magically dictate what people's incomes should be. And your moral justification is...what? The 4% of the population that took a hit? The well-being of 4% of the population should dictate how the rest of us live our lives?

Much more could be said about this subject and subjects like this. But the facts should guide us - the relevant facts that actually paint a clear picture. Not rhetoric or narratives that fit someone's personal moral beliefs.

#339 | Posted by FlubberDubber at 2023-09-14 07:20 AM | Reply

"It doesn't make sense for a young person to graduate from college with a mortgage and no property."

They choose to do so. They don't have to.
#336 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Ahh yes.
"They knew the risks when they signed up."
Those firefighters chose to respond to 9/11. Nobody held a gun to their head.

#340 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 09:49 AM | Reply

"IOW, you're just bitching because you think you're entitled to more money."

Whereas you think the rich are entitled to more money...

#341 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 09:53 AM | Reply

-She's a redneck moron who also happens to be the second most loathsome creature on the planet-an insurance salesman.

keep pushing your own buttons while believing you're pushing mine.

It's obvious you're triggered. You're unbelievably pissed off at your circumstances and you wish you hadn't dumped your laundry onto all of us like you did upthread.

That's incredibly pathetic, JPW.

#342 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-14 10:19 AM | Reply

"You're just inserting your bias here because you've already made a conclusion absent evidence or real experience."

This from a guy who feels trapped because he's struggling to figure out a way to change jobs and afford his rent and student loan obligations.

And he's attacking others in the process.

#343 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-14 10:23 AM | Reply

-More worthless punk ass sacs of ----?

If they come here and not agree with JPW, yes...that's exactly what they are.

#344 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-14 10:24 AM | Reply

Why not:

This from a guy who feels trapped because he's struggling to figure out a way to get out of Red states where it would be unsafe to raise trans child, or a girl who might need an abortion.

You are going to have a hard time selling anyone but your Deplorable compatriots that JPW wants to move someplace more expensive because he's "trapped."

#345 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 10:28 AM | Reply

-This from a guy who feels trapped because he's struggling to figure out a way to get out of Red states where it would be unsafe to raise trans child, or a girl who might need an abortion.

JPW really does have a lot of problems. Good grief!!

#346 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-14 10:40 AM | Reply

339

Very interesting post. Snoofy will ignore it because it's a hundred miles above his head but could you cite that information?

Not doubting it...but it will generate a better discussion if you can provide them.

#347 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-14 10:43 AM | Reply

JPW really does have a lot of problems. Good grief!!
#346 | POSTED BY EBERLY

99 problems but being stuck in Missouri ain't one.

#348 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 10:45 AM | Reply

339
Very interesting post.
#347 | POSTED BY EBERLY

The most interesting thing about it, is knowing somebody created a new user account just to respond to Snoofy.

Seriously, who does that?
???

#349 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 10:50 AM | Reply

-99 problems but being stuck in Missouri ain't one.

I think it might still be 1 of his problems.

#350 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-14 10:52 AM | Reply

So let's say he is stuck.

Hes got a Ph.D, working in a high tech job, but he's stuck economically.

If the guy with the Ph.D working in a high tech job can't afford to move, that indicates real problems with the entire structure of the economy, wouldn't you agree?

#351 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 10:58 AM | Reply

More worthless punk ass sacs of ----?

#337 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

There's more to worth than money.

Do they deny that that position was attainable because of taxpayer funded training?

That's my issue.

People like boaz and those I mentioned that are in my personal life.

#352 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 11:00 AM | Reply

I'm no longer in the military but based on what I can deduce from your comments and those who share your opinions is that I'm doing quite well comparatively.

You would be, like eberly, inserting your bias and assumptions.

#353 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 11:01 AM | Reply

It's selfish to get a paycheck for doing work for the government, but it's not selfish to demand that the government give you taxpayer dollars while providing nothing in return?

#338 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Show me where I've advocated for loan forgiveness.

I'll save you the trouble-I wasn't a supporter of it. You won't find me pushing for it on this thread or others.

#354 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 11:04 AM | Reply

"The problem with that is that the government has no significant revenue streams outside of taxpayers."

Norway was able to develop a significant revenue stream outside of taxpayers. So was Saudi Arabia. Even Russia figured it out.

#355 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 11:05 AM | Reply

It's obvious you're triggered. You're unbelievably pissed off at your circumstances and you wish you hadn't dumped your laundry onto all of us like you did upthread.

That's incredibly pathetic, JPW.

#342 | POSTED BY EBERLY

It's obvious your observation skills are as good as your critical thinking skills.

What laundry have I unloaded, exactly?

#356 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 11:06 AM | Reply

"Do they deny that that position was attainable because of taxpayer funded training?"

All these Self Made Men who also just happened to go through Basic Training on the taxpayer's dime...

#357 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 11:06 AM | Reply

This from a guy who feels trapped because he's struggling to figure out a way to change jobs and afford his rent and student loan obligations.

And he's attacking others in the process.

#343 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Not trapped at all.

There's nothing to figure out about changing jobs. It's a tough market in biotech right now so it's just a bit of a slog. Oh well, that's reality and I feel just fine with it.

Don't have any issues with affording rent of loan obligations. I've already paid the vast majority of it off.

Stop trying to tell me what my circumstances are because you haven't gotten a single thing right.

#358 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 11:09 AM | Reply

If the guy with the Ph.D working in a high tech job can't afford to move, that indicates real problems with the entire structure of the economy, wouldn't you agree?

#351 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

It isn't a money issue.

Trying to break into a major biotech hub from the outside is the issue.

Places like Boston or SF are very dense talent wise. People move companies often. Companies fold and employees absorbed by new companies just starting. It's a constant conveyor belt.

Why hire from half way across the country when you can hire from across the street?

#359 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 11:18 AM | Reply

All these Self Made Men who also just happened to go through Basic Training on the taxpayer's dime...

#357 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Along with all sorts of other specialized training.

There's nothing wrong with enlisting, obviously. The issue is when all those perks are attributed to something other than taxpayer funded training as a government employee.

#360 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 11:24 AM | Reply

I still find it hilarious how butthurt Beverly has been over a simple statement of fact.

He even spun all sorts of yarns to keep the fauxrage going.

#361 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 11:27 AM | Reply

"Trying to break into a major biotech hub from the outside is the issue."

Yeah that sucks. Probably a challenge to move there and take what work you can find, until you find something real.

#362 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 11:29 AM | Reply

Location is not just a major factor in real estate, but as you say in career advancement, too.

Headhunting in the Silicon Valley was a breeze compared to doing it in Texas.

And there's also other factors. I had the perfect candidate for a high level IT manger position in Dallas, and relocation was part of the deal.

But he turned it down because he was Jewish and at that time the closest synagogue was in San Antonio, lol.

#363 | Posted by Corky at 2023-09-14 11:33 AM | Reply

Probably a challenge to move there and take what work you can find, until you find something real.

#362 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

We've had that discussion of maybe just pulling the trigger and moving there to remove the relocation issue.

Only thing really preventing that is taking our son out of school. Wait lists are long and he really loves the place he's at.

Oops. Is the "dumping laundry"?

#364 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 11:53 AM | Reply

-You would be, like eberly, inserting your bias and assumptions.

Guilty as charged....but that makes me similar to.....let's see....everyone here, including you, laundry boy.

#365 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-14 12:30 PM | Reply

Location is not just a major factor in real estate, but as you say in career advancement, too.

Headhunting in the Silicon Valley was a breeze compared to doing it in Texas.

And there's also other factors. I had the perfect candidate for a high level IT manger position in Dallas, and relocation was part of the deal.

But he turned it down because he was Jewish and at that time the closest synagogue was in San Antonio, lol.

#366 | Posted by corky at 2023-09-14 12:39 PM | Reply

Oops

#367 | Posted by Corky at 2023-09-14 12:39 PM | Reply

I'm no longer in the military

#337 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Congrats on your resignation, separation, or retirement, o7.

#368 | Posted by GOnoles92 at 2023-09-14 12:44 PM | Reply

What laundry, butthurt boy?

#369 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 01:02 PM | Reply

"Whereas you think the rich are entitled to more money..."

I do?

Nah. Not really. I don't think that their yachts or private jets should be purchased with federally backed zero interest loans so they have more walkin' around money.

#370 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 01:51 PM | Reply

"Do they deny that that position was attainable because of taxpayer funded training?"

No, that position was attainable because they put in the long hours of training required to gain a very specific and very difficult skillset.

Today ~30% of airline pilots previously flew for the military. The rest paid for their flight training out of their own pockets.

#371 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 01:54 PM | Reply

#368

Retirement. Thanks.

#372 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 01:54 PM | Reply

"Show me where I've advocated for loan forgiveness."

I'm not talking about loan forgiveness. I'm talking about the notion that people with low labor value should be subsidized by those with higher labor value, and that if society permits or creates the conditions where someone can get ultra-wealthy, it's a problem with society and the appropriate role of government would be to correct their behavior in such a way that it did not create wealthy people.

OK, maybe that's not your position. It seems to be Snoofy's position, but I'm going to try not to put words in your mouth.

#373 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 01:57 PM | Reply

"Trying to break into a major biotech hub from the outside is the issue."

So, just for fun I googled it. I don't know how much a biotech research scientist makes, but it appears that the biggest hubs were also some of the country's most expensive cities. RTP in North Carolina seemed like it might be the place where you could live within 45 minutes and still have a nice house.

I dunno, maybe you make a half million dollars a year and can afford to drop $2M on a house. I'd be living in a tent in most of those places...and still probably have to pay an HOA.

#374 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 02:06 PM | Reply

"they put in the long hours of training"

They just didn't pay for the long hours of training.

#375 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 02:29 PM | Reply

"I dunno, maybe you make a half million dollars a year and can afford to drop $2M on a house."

And run a Debt to GDP ratio of 400%?
Your Right Wing Economists would ---- a brick if Uncle Sam bought that house.

#376 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 02:30 PM | Reply

"I'm talking about the notion that people with low labor value should be subsidized by those with higher labor value"

Can you explain what you're talking about without using the words "labor" and "value?"
Because you just sound like a broken record of a hot air machine.

#377 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 02:31 PM | Reply

"They just didn't pay for the long hours of training."

They certainly did. BY agreeing to a ten-year contract once they received their wings.

#378 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 02:36 PM | Reply

Can you explain what you're talking about without using the words "labor" and "value?"

Sure. Humans whose skills and abilities are insufficient to generate an income that they are you feel is sufficient.

#379 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 02:37 PM | Reply

Better?

#380 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 02:37 PM | Reply

"I'm talking about the notion that people with low labor value should be subsidized by those with higher labor value"

Is health insurance that kind of notion?
Is Social Security that kind of notion?
Is Medicare? Medicaid? WIC? SNAP? Student loans?
How about a government worker whose labor value is fixed by the government and receives their pay through taxation, much of which is collected at gunpoint from high value laborers. It that an example of the notion you're talking about?

#381 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 02:39 PM | Reply

369

I'm just messin with you........it's all good.

my apologies...

#382 | Posted by eberly at 2023-09-14 02:39 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"They just didn't pay for the long hours of training."
They certainly did. BY agreeing to a ten-year contract once they received their wings.
#378 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

They paid $$$ to agree to that contract? No.

#383 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 02:40 PM | Reply

"I'm talking about the notion that people with low labor value should be subsidized by those with higher labor value"

How would we pay for prisons otherwise?

How would we pay for schools otherwise?

#384 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 02:46 PM | Reply

Is health insurance that kind of notion?

No.

"Is Social Security that kind of notion?"

Definitely not.

"Is Medicare? Medicaid? WIC? SNAP? Student loans?"

No, Yes, Yes, Yes, no, as much as it pains you.

#385 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 03:19 PM | Reply

"How about a government worker whose labor value is fixed by the government"

The government doesn't "fix" labor value, so far as I know. The government has to compete with the private sector for the labor it requires to sustain continuing operations.

#386 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-14 03:20 PM | Reply

I understand you didn't like the word fix.

I'm not talking about price fixing or some kind of market force abstraction. I'm saying quite directly the government sets the rate, or the range really, the government pays.

Like when I was a NF-4 I made between $28,773 and $91,402 (can't remember the exact numbers but do remember noticing I was closer to the lower number than the top one.)

#387 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 03:31 PM | Reply

What's your economic argument against People of Low Value Labor being subsidized?

#388 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 03:34 PM | Reply

"It doesn't make sense for a young person to graduate from college with a mortgage and no property."
They choose to do so. They don't have to.

#336 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

"He knew what he was getting into"

#389 | Posted by chuffy at 2023-09-14 03:38 PM | Reply

but I'm going to try not to put words in your mouth.

#373 | Posted by madbomber

As I shouldn't have done with the anti-government stuff.

I always thought you and boaz had pretty similar views.

#390 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 03:47 PM | Reply

#374 | Posted by madbomber

They do tend to be pricier areas but companies almost always scale pay to account for differences in cost of living.

Similar jobs at AstraZeneca in Boston or Maryland will have different salaries.

Metros with large medical centers and (usually) universities almost always have a small biotech scene as well. Academic labs spin off findings into companies. Places like University of Pittsburgh do it very well and have built a small biotech hub there, although they have trouble attracting a lot of talent to the area.

#391 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-14 03:52 PM | Reply

We all know that the Hunter Biden indictment is ELECTION INTERFERENCE!!!!!

We just don't get treated to daily social media from his dad about how mean the DOJ is being to him, personally, and how the faschist Repubicans are trying to destroy America and the Second Amendment blah blah blah.

#392 | Posted by chuffy at 2023-09-14 03:52 PM | Reply

but I'm going to try not to put words in your mouth.

#373 | Posted by madbomber
As I shouldn't have done with the anti-government stuff.
I always thought you and boaz had pretty similar views.

#390 | POSTED BY JPW

I understand why you choose to be civil, but we are talking about a person who supports the fascist right daily. The Repubican Party is anti-government, anti-democracy and anti-Constitution. This is undeniable, and anyone who sides with them can feign ignorance of these facts, but wagons are hitched regardless. No amount of weasel words and victimhood can get you unhitched from that wagon...until these folks have their epiphany, they're on board with the anti-government movement, no matter how much they protest being associated with it.

#393 | Posted by chuffy at 2023-09-14 03:57 PM | Reply

The concept of naivete is lost upon people like MADBOMBER.

#394 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2023-09-14 04:39 PM | Reply

oops, #392 was in the wrong comments section. Sorry 'bout that

#395 | Posted by chuffy at 2023-09-14 04:52 PM | Reply

"I always thought you and boaz had pretty similar views."

I can't speak for Boaz's views, but mine are pretty simple. The biggest problem I see in the country right now is the unraveling of the concepts of rights and responsibilities. The notion that you should have unlimited rights, with no responsibilities tied to them. And it's occurring on both sides.

I'm not against the government pay for college, healthcare...whatever, but first and foremost the cost burden of these programs needs to be shared across society, and the government that collects the money needs to be a good steward. Which means spending that money in a way that will most likely result in some sort of net gain for society. Or when things are bad, minimizing. loss.

I most certainly do not subscribe to the notion that high income earners have the responsibility of providing a comfortable life for low-income earners, or the objectively silly notion that low income earners would somehow be earning more if it weren't for high income earners.

#396 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-09-15 09:53 AM | Reply

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