US Army Wants New and Upgraded Tanks

Wednesday, September 13, 2023

The U.S. Army disclosed on September 6 that it will launch an aggressive upgrade of the service's Abrams tank, greatly accelerating the pace of planned engineering changes in response to lessons learned from the war in Ukraine.

Posted by sitzkrieg at 07:31 PM | 57 COMMENTS | permalink | Comment on This Entry |

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Remember the drive to cancel the M1 tank production and all the insults thrown at a crony congress?

Turns out that was RT fueled propaganda regurgitated by an uncritical US media too.

#1 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 08:51 AM | Reply

Remember Trump?

Turns out that was RT fueled propaganda regurgitated by an uncritical US media too.

#2 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-12 09:41 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

A few of the media. Most of it ---- on Trump.

#3 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 10:30 AM | Reply

Of course the Army wants new tanks.

They always do.

$10,000,000 a pop.

Give a kid a baloney sammich though and the world is ending according to the GQP.

#4 | Posted by Nixon at 2023-09-12 12:45 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

...in response to lessons learned from the war in Ukraine.

Lessons? Like they suck outside of the desert?

#5 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-09-12 01:00 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

They suck in the desert. So much easier to find and kill.

#6 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 04:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Chaos As Ukrainian Tanks Run Wild On Russian Positions

Effectiveness despite the lack of Ukr training. They're not covering sectors correctly. They should be using the coax machine gun extensively between cannon shots. Then they eventually pop smoke and disappear into the treelines.

#7 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-12 04:19 PM | Reply

#1 | Posted by sitzkrieg

So there wasn't an excess being mothballed in the desesert?

#8 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-13 03:07 PM | Reply

#5 Also the M1 is a gas hog.

yet the M1 consumes 83% more fuel than the Leopard II when driven at a constant speed
www.pogo.org

300 gallons a day depending upon mission. Creating a logistical nightmare.

Using a turbine which is always running, I am wondering what it's heat signature is, the link above says it's enormous. Though could be low maintenance.

#9 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-09-13 03:27 PM | Reply

Yes, but the things you need to refurbish them for combat duty come from the production line. If the line is shut and Lima plant closes, the strategic capability can't be turned back on easily. It's 70 years of lost institutional knowledge and foundries that we just don't make anymore.

#10 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 03:33 PM | Reply

300 gallons a day depending upon mission. Creating a logistical nightmare.

#9 | POSTED BY ONEIRONAUT AT 2023-09-13 03:27 PM | FLAG:

It's not a weapon system for poor countries. It's not weapon system for rich countries that do not have Western values. They fail to fight effectively with it, fail to maintain it, etc.

#11 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 03:34 PM | Reply

"It's 70 years of lost institutional knowledge and foundries that we just don't make anymore."

Deplorables don't think that way.

Like when Trump gutted Obama's White House Office of Pandemic Preparedness, with the hand-waving comment that if they're ever needed those jobs can just be restaffed.

#12 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 04:30 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

"300 gallons a day depending upon mission. Creating a logistical nightmare."

That's not a nightmare that's easy for us.

It would be hard in a county like Russia where they would need to provision a thousand gallons in hopes that only 700 are lost to corruption along the supply chain.

#13 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 04:31 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

"It's 70 years of lost institutional knowledge and foundries that we just don't make anymore."
Deplorables don't think that way.

#12 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2023-09-13 04:30 PM | FLAG:

They do. Trump went to Lima for a we-kept-it-open party/speech. They actively looking to undo that knowledge to diminish government power.

#14 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 07:43 PM | Reply

Unless it's military related, because the military is mostly Trumpers from Trumper towns surrounding military bases.

#15 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 07:43 PM | Reply

It might be wiser to invest in a huge army of swarming drones. Tanks appear to be nearing obsolete...

Besides...tiny drones are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay cheaper.

#16 | Posted by earthmuse at 2023-09-13 07:57 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Ukraine is proving they're not obsolete at all, but the T-72 is an empirically bad design. Some new armor designs are surprisingly effective against the cardboard drone swarm.

#17 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-13 08:38 PM | Reply

"Lessons? Like they suck outside of the desert?
#5 | POSTED BY REDIAL"

More like - they are ineffective against positions that have been heavily mined when the enemy has anti-tank missiles. The heat signature of their engines make them completely unfit for battle against a modern army.

The reality is, the US is military paper tiger - and now that is being exposed to the world. It is sad - we didn't need to involve ourselves in Ukraine and have yet another military failure attached to our horrible record since Korea.

But the bigger reality is: tanks are absolute on the modern battlefield. Just like horse mounted calvary was made obsolete by motorized vehicles, so too have tanks by modern anti-tank missiles and drone scouting. It will only get worse. Modernizing tanks is re-playing our current losing effort.

#18 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-09-13 10:44 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"The reality is, the US is military paper tiger"

Oh man. Thanks I needed a laugh.

#19 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 10:47 PM | Reply

""The reality is, the US is military paper tiger"
Oh man. Thanks I needed a laugh.
#19 | POSTED BY SNOOFY"

I think you need to explain how we were defeated in Afghanistan fighting vs. an army with no airforce, limited motorized vehicles - and troops wearing dresses rather than body armor. Next, you can tell us how Ukraine can sustain an 8:1 casualty disadvantage vs. Russia with a 'Spring Offensive' that was a complete disaster. Lastly, you can explain how a Russian mercenary group headed by a chef and composed of convicts defeated the national army of Ukraine equipped with billions of dollars in NATO weapon systems and trained by NATO as well.

#20 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-09-13 10:53 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"I think you need to explain how we were defeated in Afghanistan fighting vs. an army with no airforce, limited motorized vehicles - and troops wearing dresses rather than body armor."

Just pencil in however Russia was defeated in Afghanistan and that's probably going to hit a few of the right notes.

#21 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-13 11:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Just pencil in however Russia was defeated in Afghanistan and that's probably going to hit a few of the right notes.

#21 | POSTED BY SNOOFY"

Russia left Afghanistan nearly 35 years ago when Afghanistan was 100% supported by the US. The US surrendered in Afghanistan 2 years ago and Afghanistan was not fully funded by a modern military (hence, the dresses rather than body armor). But, your attempt at 'whataboutism' is cute.

#22 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-09-13 11:05 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

But, your attempt at 'whataboutism' is cute.

Its uninformed.

#23 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-09-13 11:15 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

The US surrendered in Afghanistan 2 years ago

Actually Lewzer did that in 2020. That's 3 years.

#24 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-09-13 11:15 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"Actually Lewzer did that in 2020. That's 3 years.
#24 | POSTED BY REDIAL"

Way to not see the forest for the trees -------.

#25 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-09-13 11:30 PM | Reply

Ok... have it your way. Lewzer for sure did not sign a bailout agreement with the Taliban in 2020.

#26 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-09-13 11:32 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

"#26 | POSTED BY REDIAL"

The entire discussion is around if the US military is a paper tiger. It does not matter if it was a paper tiger under Trump or under Biden - the reality is that it is one now. So, you may think deflecting to Trump is some 'value add' to this discussion. It is not. It does nothing to address the actual discussion. Do you understand now -------?

#27 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-09-13 11:36 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

The entire discussion is around if the US military is a paper tiger.

Sorry, I missed that. I thought it was about *looks at thread headline* the US Army looking at tank upgrades.

#28 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-09-13 11:39 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Sorry, I missed that. I thought it was about *looks at thread headline* the US Army looking at tank upgrades.
#28 | POSTED BY REDIAL"

Did you apply to the OP/thread headline or a discussion already in progress about the US being a paper tiger -------? You can lead a liberal to water but you can't make him think.

#29 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-09-13 11:56 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Did you apply to the OP/thread headline or a discussion already in progress about the US being a paper tiger

Fair point. I should not have encouraged your thread deflection to begin with.

I apologize to all concerned for my faulty application.

#30 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-09-14 12:03 AM | Reply

But, your attempt at 'whataboutism' is cute.
Its uninformed.
#23 | POSTED BY ONEIRONAUT

If you didn't like my idea of penciling in the reasons the Russians lost in Afghanistan -- something we Americans called "Russia's Vietnam" at the time -- you could try penciling in the reasons the United States lost in Vietnam.

#31 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 12:07 AM | Reply

"#31 | POSTED BY SNOOFY"

It is not that I disagreed with you point - it is that you point was more 'whataboutism'. I never claimed the Soviet Union in the 1970's was NOT a paper tiger. In fact, outside of nuclear weapons, it most certainly was. This was seen in the USSR equipped Arab armies getting regular trounced by the Israelis or by the USSR equipped rebels chalking up huge losses vs. South Africa and Rhodesia. The Soviet weapons of the 1970's are just as ineffective as the US tanks are today.

#32 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-09-14 12:45 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

The US didn't lose Vietnam because of tanks.

#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-09-14 12:50 AM | Reply

"#33 | POSTED BY SNOOFY"

Where did I ever claim that it did? It lost Vietnam because it was a paper tiger. How is it so difficult for your liberals to follow a conversation. Too much dope as a teen?

#34 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-09-14 12:53 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#31 US lost Vietnam because it held back, it was afraid of my motherland.

Soviets lost Afghanistan because it was fighting the last/wrong war.

Calling it "Russians Vietnam" is American narcissism.

#35 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-09-14 01:17 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Claudio is your typical 'move the goalposts Conservative',
he likes to come into a forum, and try his best
to destroy it by saying outlandish crap that will get people
riled up, and thus, hijack the debate. I've learned to
ignore such idiots. You see, when you get older (55+ here)
you just find that your life doesn't have room for time
wasters in life that it used to...

The U.S. military is no 'paper tiger'. As Russia (through our
proxy Ukraine) is currently finding out. As China is likely
to find out in the next decade, if not 5 years, if it remains on
it's Xi driven 'world domination path'.

But, that being said, America's military definitely should be
rethinking its strategy in the face of new technological developments
(e.g. drones and the like). Weapon systems have a 'shelf life'. And
once they become obsolete, or are nearing that date, it is time to move
on to a better technology.

#36 | Posted by earthmuse at 2023-09-14 06:40 AM | Reply

They are. The Abrams is becoming an autonomous drone.

#37 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-14 07:54 AM | Reply

"Soviets lost Afghanistan because it was fighting the last/wrong war."

So, are you saying that the unprovoked invasion of Ukraine is a morally correct war?

#38 | Posted by danni at 2023-09-14 08:31 AM | Reply

"The U.S. military is no 'paper tiger'. As Russia (through our
proxy Ukraine) is currently finding out.
#36 | POSTED BY EARTHMUSE"

How do you figure -------? The 'Spring Offensive' has done nothing but fill up Ukraine's cemeteries. Now, Ukraine is drafting mental deficients, handicapped, and women - oh - and asking the other EU nations to force the Ukrainians that fled pre-war to return. You see no such thing out of the Russians. They are running up an 8:1 casualty advantage and crushing the NATO supplied troops and vehicles.

#39 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-09-14 09:08 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

#39 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO AT 2023-09-14 09:08 AM | FLAG:

8:1 that's hilarious. Every reasonable sources has it at 1:2, even on the offensive.

#40 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-14 09:10 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It's refreshing that only the magatards are balls deep in the Russian propaganda. Still lots of reasonable conservatives that understand how OSINT works.

#41 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-14 09:11 AM | Reply

"8:1 that's hilarious. Every reasonable sources has it at 1:2, even on the offensive.
#40 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG"

Keep smoking the copium -------. I will trust Douglas Macgregor's estimates more than anything out of Ukraine or the lying Pentagon spokesman. But, we won't have to wait long - I think Russia is done playing now and will actually take the gloves off now that they see Ukraine has no intention of ever negotiating in good faith.

infobrics.org

#42 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-09-14 09:19 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

HAHAHAHA! OH GOD THAT GUY! Literally the most notorious fraud of 73 Easting! He's been posting article, after article, after article, about how Ukraine is losing next week, since the 3 day war started almost 600 days ago.

#43 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-14 09:21 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#39 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO

Do you just make up the numbers yourself or are you told what numbers to use?

The Ukrainians have lost about 25,000 soldiers. The Russians have lost over 100,000.

#44 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-09-14 10:27 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Do you just make up the numbers yourself or are you told what numbers to use?

Best estimates put Ukr troop losses around 70k killed and 110k wounded.
Best estimates put Russian troop losses around 120k killed and 175k wounded.

It's about a 2:1 trade across the entire war.

#45 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-14 10:40 AM | Reply

Do you just make up the numbers yourself or are you told what numbers to use?
Best estimates put Ukr troop losses around 70k killed and 110k wounded.
Best estimates put Russian troop losses around 120k killed and 175k wounded.
It's about a 2:1 trade across the entire war.

#45 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

Someone from the Pentagon gave those numbers in August. And they match assessments from earlier this year.

The problem with numbers on the Ukraine side is separating soldiers, civilians fighting alongside soldiers, and actual civilians.

All together, they estimated 250,000 dead Ukrainians between these groups.

#46 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-09-14 11:04 AM | Reply

Perhaps you misheard them on losing 25k soldiers as it being total? or it's 25k lost in the offensive? United States govt estimates showed, in May 2023: 70k troops, 110k wounded, 42k civs = 222k total dead or wounded.

#47 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-14 11:10 AM | Reply

Leopard 2A6 vs Two T-72s. First Leopard 2 MBT vs MBT engagement published on video.

#48 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-14 12:34 PM | Reply

Would it be better to give soldiers quadracycles with stinger missiles? It's harder to hit fast moving targets.

#49 | Posted by Tor at 2023-09-14 01:44 PM | Reply

I think you need to explain how we were defeated in Afghanistan

I think you need to explain why you think we were defeated.

What was the goal? The goal was to kick the Taliban's ass and get Bin Laden. That was done.

The goal wasnt to install a U.S. government there. When judged against that, we didnt win.It just so happens the afghan people dont want freedom. They want Islam.

We deposed the Taliban, that was the goal. The afghan people just didnt want the type of peace that come with that.

Liberals needs to stop saying we "lost" anything. We didnt. Now, our resolve is different, as liberals dont have any. Peace involves doing things that are nasty and not progressive approved.

#50 | Posted by boaz at 2023-09-14 01:54 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

#39 Claudio...

According to one source...

www.oryxspioenkop.com

Russian Tanks lost (2315 tanks, 1502 destroyed, 130 damaged, 135 abandoned, 550 captured).

This is just tanks lost...
There are tons of stats like this for those interested in looking.

Russia is losing.....Badly.

Russia being far larger than Ukraine,
has managed to lose more men,
not including the 500,000 or so males
that left Russia because they didn't want
to be drafted and sent to an illegal war to
die for Putin's vanity,
1000's more tanks,
helicopters, military transport vehicles,
airplanes-both fighters and bombers,
and naval losses include frigates, a damaged aircraft carrier,
missle ships, and now a submarine...

try the YouTube Channels:

Warthog Defense
or Reporting from Ukraine,
if you want more accurate estimates of the war.

#51 | Posted by earthmuse at 2023-09-14 02:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I will trust Douglas Macgregor's estimates more than anything out of Ukraine or the lying Pentagon spokesman

Three days after the war began, he said "The battle in eastern Ukraine is really almost over," and predicted "If [Ukraine] don't surrender in the next 24 hours, I suspect Russia will ultimately annihilate them." Macgregor said he believed Russia should be allowed to seize whatever parts of Ukraine it wanted. In his second appearance, he revised his prediction: "The first five days Russian forces I think frankly were too gentle. They've now corrected that. So, I would say another 10 days this should be completely over...

Macgregor, who wants to declare Martial Law on the boarder and and use "extrajudicial execution". Spoke in favor of annexing Crimea on Russian State television. Claims the slaves in America were "mostly Irish".

In a strong field your declaration of trust in Macgregor is the dumbest thing you've ever said.

#52 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-09-15 10:25 AM | Reply

If Douglas Macgregor had to have an honest debate with a random OSINT person from the Internet, he would lose so badly it would devalue the PhDs at University of Virginia.

#53 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-15 10:46 AM | Reply

If we've learned anything from Ukraine, it's that the US should significantly upgrade its game on drone technology.

#54 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2023-09-15 12:41 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I'd rather see [much cheaper than the tanks] more Harpoon anti-ship missiles produced and prepositioned in the Pacific for our ships due to the buildup of the Chinese Navy.

#55 | Posted by MSgt at 2023-09-15 01:28 PM | Reply

If we've learned anything from Ukraine, it's that the US should significantly upgrade its game on drone technology.

#54 | POSTED BY WHATSLEFT AT 2023-09-15 12:41 PM | FLAG:

Replicator program. It's already under way.

#56 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-09-15 01:34 PM | Reply

I think Russia is done playing now and will actually take the gloves off now that they see Ukraine has no intention of ever negotiating in good faith.
infobrics.org

#42 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO

LOL there are still idiots out there who think Russia has been half-heartedly fighting in Ukraine?

#57 | Posted by jpw at 2023-09-15 02:32 PM | Reply