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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Monday, November 27, 2023

Paul Waldman: There is a strong disconnect between what the numbers on the economy say, and what the people say. Specifically, what GOP voters say.

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Damn librul media...

#1 | Posted by Angrydad at 2023-11-27 08:29 AM | Reply

"The study seems to suggest the GOP just hates Democrats in the White House, no matter how they are doing..."

"Seems"????

#2 | Posted by Angrydad at 2023-11-27 08:32 AM | Reply

The reason most see the economy as terrible, is because of inequity. Used to be the man of the house was able to make a living, working one job, and being able to pay for a new car, a home, and a family. Now it takes two working or one working two or more jobs just to make ends meet. There is no more time for a lot of leisure as most have to scramble to just pay rent. According to surveys there is no place in the US where one person working a full time, minimum wage job, can pay for the rent by themselves on a two bedroom apartment. Then there are the other necessities of life such as food, utilities, and clothing. All aspects of life, from health care to education, have gone through the roof in costs. In no way considering what the average person makes when it comes to affordability.

This is why Americans feel the economy sucks.

#3 | Posted by BBQ at 2023-11-27 04:25 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 7

"The reason most see the economy as terrible, is because of inequity."

The truly amazing thing in all this, is we've got all these Republicans who say people who complain about inequality are just jealous and need to work harder.

So, why do Republicans even think anything is wrong with the economy? The problem is they are jealous and they need to work harder.

Like, what's wrong with the economy, and more to the point, what are Republicans gonna do to fix it.

Republicans can't say what any of their fixes are.

#4 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-11-27 04:38 PM | Reply

-The study seems to suggest the GOP just hates Democrats in the White House, no matter how they are doing...

You can make yourself miserable if you try hard enough. No matter how good you have it......

#5 | Posted by eberly at 2023-11-27 05:10 PM | Reply

-Used to be the man of the house was able to make a living, working one job, and being able to pay for a new car, a home, and a family.

sounds very MAGA to me.......but lefties say it all the time.

#6 | Posted by eberly at 2023-11-27 05:13 PM | Reply

As Leftists and their MSM lackeys seem incapable of understanding the current state of the economy, let me help you out. First, NO ONE believes the inflation numbers published by the government. Second, people are way less concerned about the RATE of inflation than the resulting PRICES that are way elevated over 2 years ago and aren't coming down (because the RATE of inflation is still positive). They see this every time they go to a grocery store or fast food joint and could care less about the price of things like cell phones. Part of this is because that conflate prices with inflation - so, they think Biden claiming inflation is now will actually result in prices going down (mistake on their part and poor messaging by Democrats).

Second, outside of minimum wage workers, the great bulk of the workers did not see their wages keep up with inflation. While the average fast food worker is now making $20/hour in places like CA up from $12-$15 2 year ago, the guy that was working a minimally skilled office did not see his wages go up 33% - maybe their wages are up 10% over 2 years but their cost of living is up 20% or more. So, they actually got poorer over the last 2 years. How many on this board have averaged a double-digit wage increase for the last 2 years? If you didn't, you are also poorer.

On top of this, the stock market is not performing well (relative to inflation) and housing prices have plateaued and started to decrease. House affordability is the worst it has been in decades if not ever due to the plateauing prices and sky high mortgage rates.

As for these jobs Biden 'created' - well, let's just use the 14M number. 9M+ are simply jobs recovered since the government shutdown over covid. So, the real number is ~5M. Of those, most are also 'fake'. By this, I mean that we have had a minimum of 7M illegal enter the country in the last 3 years. On top of this, the Dem policies have increasingly brought some of the 20M illegals that lived here before covid from working off the books to working on the books. So, the entire increase in 'jobs' can be attributed to the illegals and not US citizens. Of the few jobs going to US citizens, most are part time crap jobs in hospitality.

Thus, NO ONE believes the number posted by the US government at this point. We have reached CCCP level of data integrity.

Lastly, EVERY city is seeing a surge in homeless (mentally deranged and drug addicted mainly). This surge is occurring at a time when it is relatively easy to get a job. People see this and think: "what will happen when the economy dips into a full blown recession? Will my town be overrun by homeless?". This is the reality of what people see - roving hoards of zombie like homeless, soaring cost of living, and wages not even coming close to keeping up with cost of living. The next group that is going to be angered by this are the Senior Citizens - the group most impacted by the manipulation of the inflation rate number.

#7 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-27 07:04 PM | Reply | Funny: 3 | Newsworthy 1

No one reads your wall of words you waste of carbon

#8 | Posted by truthhurts at 2023-11-27 07:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

@#7 ... As Leftists and their MSM lackeys seem incapable of understanding the current state of the economy, let me help you out. First, NO ONE believes the inflation numbers published by the government. ...

So, your current alias asserts that there is NO ONE, not a single person on this planet, who believes the inflation numbers published by the government. Aside from, got a link?

I'll go on ...

That self-attribution of speaking for all others on this planet is something 've noted about other aliases on this most august site.

Yet those other aliases seem to shy away when I ask the following question....

Why does your current alias appear to speak for everyone on this planet?

Such ridiculous assertions reduce the gravitas of anything else posted by your current alias here. But the comments actually posted by your current alais have already reduced it's believability to a low point, regardless.


Yer up.

And do try harder next time.

:)


#9 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-27 07:21 PM | Reply

"No one reads your wall of words you waste of carbon
#8 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS"

It is 100% your right to remain ignorant. You wear it like a badge of honor.

#10 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-27 07:29 PM | Reply | Funny: 2 | Newsworthy 1

If I bothered to read your nonsense I can count on losing a couple of iq points

#11 | Posted by truthhurts at 2023-11-27 07:32 PM | Reply

"If I bothered to read your nonsense I can count on losing a couple of iq points
#11 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS"

Well then you better not read. You are already at the dull-normal classification so I would hate to see you slip further.

#12 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-27 07:34 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

You're so far behind me you think you're leading dummy

#13 | Posted by truthhurts at 2023-11-27 07:39 PM | Reply

@#10 ... It is 100% your right to remain ignorant. You wear it like a badge of honor. ...

Projecting?

Again?

:)

#14 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-27 07:40 PM | Reply

Claudio is beating Truthhurts like a red headed step child.

#15 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-27 07:43 PM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

Used to be the man of the house was able to make a living, working one job, and being able to pay for a new car, a home, and a family.
sounds very MAGA to me.......but lefties say it all the time.
#6 | POSTED BY EBERLY

It does sound Great.

But Republicans think the tax regime at that time, with it's top marginal rate of 77%, was an incredible injustice.

So they fixed it.

And they got us off the gold standard and they opened up trade with China.

And now the average man of the house is lucky to be as fiscally sound as his 1950s or 1960s counterparts. While the top 20% has significantly more wealth.

Wealth was massively redistributed upwards.

Wealth stopped trickling down right around the time Republicans promised wealth would trickle down.

#16 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-11-27 07:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Second, outside of minimum wage workers, the great bulk of the workers did not see their wages keep up with inflation."

I've been saying as much for a decade, and it's been happening for half a century.

"Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households."

#17 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-11-27 07:46 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

@#12 ... Well then you better not read. ...

Please tell me then, instead of advising people not to read the comments of your current alias....

What parts, specifically, are worth reading?

What parts does your current alias think I can read without feeling my brain drain out of my ears?

What parts, specifically, of your current alias' comments are worth reading?

Gimme the Cliff Notes version....

thx.

#18 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-27 07:46 PM | Reply

People know what Obamacare entails. Which is why a majority disapproves.

Most people have no idea what Affordable Care Act is other than it sounds nice, which is why it polls better.

Elizabeth Warren knows exactly what ACA is and she is ripping it based n that knowledge.

She's an Honest Injun.

#19 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-27 07:47 PM | Reply

@#19 ... People know what Obamacare entails. Which is why a majority disapproves.

Most people have no idea what Affordable Care Act is other than it sounds nice, which is why it polls better. ...

Yeah, back in 2017 when people were asked about ACA, with details, they liked it.

At the time, the Republicans were on a campaign against Obamacare. They called it Obamacare because their polling showed that the ACA was liked.

To wit, when asked about ACA, most liked it, even though Obamacare and the ACA are the same thing.

Your current alias still seems to propagate that misunderstanding.

Why?

#20 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-27 08:08 PM | Reply

""Second, outside of minimum wage workers, the great bulk of the workers did not see their wages keep up with inflation."
I've been saying as much for a decade, and it's been happening for half a century.
"Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households."
#17 | POSTED BY SNOOFY"

Well, people don't listen to you because what you say is not grounded in reality - for instance, the main point of the sentence you quoted is that minimum wage workers have been a great beneficiary over the last 2 years. Contrary to what you posted about, THIS HAS NOT been the case since 1975. From 1975-2021, minimum wage workers had their earnings power eroded due to offshoring of manufacturing and a flood of illegals suppressing wages. This was completely turned upside down in 2021 due to the government policies leading to a lack of people actually wanting to work and the illegals being 'legalized' in the workforce demanding higher wages.

As for the 'top 20% of households' - this is also nonsense. This is only the case when you ignore government transfer payments at the lower income levels.

Please tell me the difference between owning a real estate property that yields $1000/month after expenses and simply receiving $1000 per month in transfer payments (food stamps, electric subsidy, housing subsidy, Medicaid, etc)? At the end of the day, the disposable income is the same but from your accounting, there was no gain for the low income people. $1000 per month if it was an annuity account at 8% inflation is worth $150K. So, stating that the poor people have no savings, etc ignores these transfer payments and the value of them.

Once we account for the transfer payments, the people getting screwed are the middle class and upper middle class. Neither of these groups can get transition their income into unearned income and they cannot escape the high tax rates on W2 income. Additionally, they are not seeing wages keep pace with inflation and the value of the taxes are decreasing as they go to fund foreign wars and failing public institutions that are little better value than simply burning the money (like US public schools). Worse yet, they are the ones bearing the brunt of the wage increases for the minimum wage workers as they still need to eat and the higher wage costs are passed directly on in the form of higher prices.

That is why people are pissed and complaining that the economy is broken.

#21 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-27 09:36 PM | Reply

"Please tell me then, instead of advising people not to read the comments of your current alias....
Gimme the Cliff Notes version....
#18 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

If you are too lazy/dumb to read the whole post to understand the entire context, then it is not worth spoon feeding you only a portion of it so that you are misrepresent it later. Quite frankly, you are the epitome of what is what is ailing America. A generation that is lazy, entitled, filled with both hubris and ignorance and you want to make it someone else's job to alleviate you from your moronic stupor and react with anger with a person actually attempts to do it. Enjoy your ignorance, wear it like a badge of honor.

#22 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-27 09:39 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Are Real Wages Rising? Yes, But Here's Why That Question is Harder to Answer Than You Might Think

JOSEPH POLITANO - (I write about monetary policy, labor markets, business, finance, and everything else that falls under macroeconomics.)
11/13/2023

The last few years have seen some of the strongest US labor markets since the turn of the millennium -- unemployment rates had fallen to generational lows, working-class wage growth hit the highest level since the 1980s, and millions of workers were able to switch to higher-paying jobs as part of the "Great Resignation." Yet we have also seen an enormous surge in inflation -- the Consumer Price Index (CPI) is up nearly 19% since the end of 2019, functionally matching the cumulative price growth seen across the entirety of the prior decade, with costs for food, energy, and transportation skyrocketing. So are American workers still making it out ahead?

The answer is, on average, yes -- cumulative growth in hourly compensation has exceeded inflation since the end of 2019, though it remains slightly below the trend of strong growth seen in the latter half of the 2010s.

Official average real hourly compensation is up since the pandemic but remains slightly below the pre-COVID trendline, and the same is true for real wages derived from the average hourly earnings data. However, real wages for "production and nonsupervisory workers" - i.e., the middle/working class jobs directly involved in service provision, manufacturing, or construction, excluding managers and the like - have risen faster than the overall average and are essentially in-line with what would be expected in the absence of a pandemic.

Granting that average real wages have increased since 2019, it's still important to check on the evolving distribution of real wages -- US income inequality is relatively high, so even if average wages are up that could easily reflect growth only accruing at the top end of the distribution. The good news is that median usual real earnings among full-time workers are also up, though they remain below the pre-pandemic trendline.

Even still, it remains clear that wage growth has been strongest at the lowest end of the wage spectrum, something corroborated by the fast wage growth rates for production and nonsupervisory employees and in traditionally low-wage industries, although low-end wage growth has cooled recently.

#23 | Posted by tonyroma at 2023-11-27 10:05 PM | Reply

Overall, it's clear that:

1. Average wage growth since the pandemic has outpaced inflation, though cumulatively real wages are likely a bit below where -one would expect in the absence of COVID-19

2. The real wage distribution has compressed -- that is, lower-wage workers have seen proportionally larger gains than higher-wage workers, although this effect is lessened by the fact that low-income households have faced greater inflation than high-income households.

3. Real wage growth is likely to hold up if the labor market remains strong and the US is able to stick the "soft landing" where inflation normalizes without a recession. Yet it remains at significant risk of cooling or stagnating if the slowing labor market we've seen over the last two years worsens substantially.

www.apricitas.io

#24 | Posted by tonyroma at 2023-11-27 10:06 PM | Reply

"1. Average wage growth since the pandemic has outpaced inflation, though cumulatively real wages are likely a bit below where -one would expect in the absence of COVID-19"

- the published inflation rate is CCCP level propaganda. Use the formula from 1980 and try to make the same statement again.

"2. The real wage distribution has compressed -- that is, lower-wage workers have seen proportionally larger gains than higher-wage workers"

The ones squeezed are the middle class (people above minimum wage but still working poor). Again, I ask this board - who has seen 10% yearly increases in your earnings the last 2 years without switching jobs? Anyone?

"3. Real wage growth is likely to hold up
#24 | POSTED BY TONYROMA"

Again, it only holds up if we lie about the rate of inflation. You do realize that the inflation rate formula was changed under Reagan for the purpose of screwing SS retirees, right?

#25 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-27 10:15 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Well, hello. Tony Roma.

#26 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-27 10:16 PM | Reply

This is hilarious.

I love it when Lumpers here tell Americans what they are experiencing, aka the Gaslighting of Americans.

This is why Biden is polling so poorly, people aren't feeling what he's saying, and he's not saying he will fix anything because nothing in his opinion is wrong.

#27 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-11-27 10:21 PM | Reply

Our current level of inflation was so predictable. Massive deficits and government debt. Years upon years of essentially zero interest rates. Lockdowns exacerbated all of it. This is the result of bad fiscal policy.

#28 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-27 10:22 PM | Reply

@#22 ... If you are too lazy/dumb to read the whole post to understand the entire context, then it is not worth spoon feeding you only a portion of it so that you are misrepresent it later. Quite frankly, you are the epitome of what is what is ailing America. ...

So, nothing but ad hominem attacks.

No gainsay of the comment your current alias replies to.

Typical.



#29 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-27 10:25 PM | Reply

Currently it's mostly the result of Trump's Deficit Funded Tax Cuts for himself and other billionaires / Corporate Personhood entities.

#30 | Posted by Corky at 2023-11-27 10:25 PM | Reply

@#25 ... Again, it only holds up if we lie about the rate of inflation. ...

Are we lying?

... You do realize that the inflation rate formula was changed under Reagan for the purpose of screwing SS retirees, right? ...

If that assertion is actually true, fmr Pres Reagan was decades ago.

What does something that may have happened so long ago affect what is happening now?

#31 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-27 10:28 PM | Reply

"What does something that may have happened so long ago affect what is happening now?
#31 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

Because both parties are fully invested in cheating SS recipients. For Dems, if they passed on a true COLA, the fund goes bankrupt sooner and pulls the carpet out on the argument that SS is an easy fix. For GOP, they want to cut SS even further so they have no incentive to pass on a true COLA. So, the uniparty wants inflation understated - it is what it is.

#32 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-27 10:33 PM | Reply

By the way, you can refer to this link on the actual reality that people are living through now:

www.shadowstats.com

Using the inflation formula from 1980, 2023 inflation is ~12% vs. the 3-4% quoted by the government today. When people go to the store and actually buy things, their lived experience is closer to the 12% - which is why they are pissed and Biden's approval rate is in the low 30's.

#33 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-27 10:37 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Why would Biden do this if things were so great!?

Biden will use the Defense Production Act to improve the domestic manufacturing of medicines deemed crucial for national security and will convene the first meeting of the president's supply chain resilience council to announce other measures tied to the production and shipment of goods
www.whitehouse.gov

.
What does something that may have happened so long ago affect what is happening now?
- gaslighter

It's math, the variables change but the equation is the same

#34 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-11-27 10:46 PM | Reply

@#32 ... Because both parties are fully invested in cheating SS recipients ...

OK, now your current alias seems to be arguing for "both parties."

How odd.

... By the way, you can refer to this link on the actual reality that people are living through now: ...

The link your current alias posts states up front that the viewpoint presented is "our estimate."

An opinion.

So, what else yer got?

Any real facts?



#35 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-27 10:54 PM | Reply

"The link your current alias posts states up front that the viewpoint presented is "our estimate.
#35 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

They apply the formula from 1980 because the government no longer does so it will always just be an estimate. I really don't understand your purpose for posting - is it just to hear yourself talk?

#36 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-27 10:58 PM | Reply

@#34 ... Why would Biden do this if things were so great!? ...

Why would Pres Biden do what? Produce medicines to help people?

#37 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-27 10:59 PM | Reply

@#36 ... so it will always just be an estimate ...

The numbers have always been an estimate.

Hasn't your current alias been paying attention?

I mean really.

... I really don't understand your purpose for posting - is it just to hear yourself talk? ...

I have a few reasons for posting.

One reason, and a major reason for me, is to post informative comments.

At a lower priority, sometimes I do post to counter the apparent intentional degradation attempts of a person who uses mutliple aliases to try to disrupt what I consider to be a most august discussion website.


I do note, though, your current alias's attempt to pull the discussion about me rather than the topic at hand.

As I mentioned many times prior, disrupt, not discuss.

#38 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-27 11:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

They apply the formula from 1980

Why? Why not 1950?

#39 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-11-27 11:13 PM | Reply

@#39 ... Why? Why not 1950? ...

Oh, stop that.

You're killing the narrative.


:)

#40 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-27 11:17 PM | Reply

Why? Why not 1950?
#39 | POSTED BY REDIAL

Sure go ahead. It would just be worse.

But thanks for asking.

#41 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-11-27 11:30 PM | Reply

@#41 ... It would just be worse. ...

Why?


#42 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-27 11:38 PM | Reply

Sure go ahead.

Ok... let's look at the cost of a cell phone.

Base + packages + connect fees + postage & handling = INFINITY

#43 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-11-27 11:41 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

@#43 ... Ok... let's look at the cost of a cell phone. ...

Yer gonna have to stop with such reality-based discussions when you try to gainsay the oneironaut group of aliases.

Those aliases seem to be oblivious to the real world.

:)


#44 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-27 11:54 PM | Reply

"One reason, and a major reason for me, is to post informative comments.
#38 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

Link please.

#45 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-27 11:59 PM | Reply

@#45 ... Link please. ...

Yeah, so your current alias admits it has not been paying attention.

Do try harder.

And, fwiw, I am still waiting to that recession to appear that your current alias stated was already occurring back in the sripng.

Yeah, do try harder.

:)

(see, smiley face)

#46 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-28 12:09 AM | Reply

"@#45 ... Link please. ...
Yeah, so your current alias admits it has not been paying attention.
#46 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

You made a claim - I expect you to link to back it up just like you expect from everyone else. Provide a link to an informative post you made.

#47 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-28 12:14 AM | Reply

@#47 ... You made a claim ...

And what claim was that?

But since your current alias insists...

Here's one...

drudge.com

:)

#48 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-28 12:26 AM | Reply

"@#47 ... You made a claim ...
And what claim was that?"

You made the claim - no need to try to move the goalposts now and you clearly understand the request for a link as you attempted to provide one. Thus far, you have yet to link to an informative post you have made. I will continue to ask for that link until you retract the statement. You have never made an informative posting on this website, just admit it and move on.

#49 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-28 12:28 AM | Reply

@#49 ... I will continue to ask for that link ...

Yo, I provided a link in my #48.

Get a grip.

#50 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-28 12:31 AM | Reply

You have never made an informative posting on this website

Not to you. No one could pound information through a bubble like yours.

#51 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-11-28 12:39 AM | Reply

"Not to you. No one could pound information through a bubble like yours.
#51 | POSTED BY REDIAL"

To anyone. Which is why that ------- cannot provide a link.

#52 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-28 12:47 AM | Reply

@#52 ... Which is why that ------- cannot provide a link. ...

Still trolling?

Is that all your current collection of current aliases are capable of?

I provided a link in #48.

Troll harder.

#53 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-28 12:51 AM | Reply

"I provided a link in #48.
#53 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

I followed the link in your #48. It was non-responsive to the request. I have requested a link to an informative post from you. You still have not provided one.

#54 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-28 01:07 AM | Reply

@#54 ... It was non-responsive to the request. I have requested a link to an informative post from you. ...

Au contraire mon ami.

That link was most informative.

Your current alias just did not like the information it presented.

So, now that your current alias has shown it's true trolling colors, maybe we can get back to the topic of this thread, i.e. the economy, and why the GOP seems to lie so much about the economy.

What's yer got?


#55 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-11-28 01:16 AM | Reply

Nobody buying your lies about the economy? Probably because people buy groceries every week and pay rent every month. So lying to them about how great everything is won't get you far.

#56 | Posted by THEBULL at 2023-11-28 05:46 AM | Reply

THE BULL

Don't blame the economy on your personal cash flow problems. Maybe you should have made better decisions in your life. Like, for example, graduate from high school, if that's the case, as it is with many who are left struggling to survive on a low income.

Or maybe you're just a perpetual victim.

#57 | Posted by Twinpac at 2023-11-28 06:06 AM | Reply

I am not sure I read this right. But , I really hope I haven't.

Claudio ACTUALLY believes the rich have been getting screwed, and poor people are winning over the last several decades?

Please dear lord tell me that's not true.

If it is true, it is the single dumbest thing I've ever read in my 54 years of life. It odd the single most cognitively dissonant statement ever uttered. On a "wrongness" scale of 1-10, congratulations on hitting a million.

Wow. Just ... . Wow.

I didn't realize that people could be so fervently ... . So proudly ... incorrect.

#58 | Posted by ABH at 2023-11-28 06:25 AM | Reply

"I am not sure I read this right. But , I really hope I haven't.
Claudio ACTUALLY believes the rich have been getting screwed, and poor people are winning over the last several decades?"

You clearly don't know how to read because that is the polar opposite of what I wrote. The middle class is getting screwed. Poor, minimum wage workers, have also been getting screwed for the last 30 years outside of the large wage gains they made in the last 2 years. That is what I wrote.

"Please dear lord tell me that's not true.
If it is true, it is the single dumbest thing I've ever read in my 54 years of life."

Your reading comprehension is the problem - and yes, that is very dumb.

"It odd the single most cognitively dissonant statement ever uttered. On a "wrongness" scale of 1-10, congratulations on hitting a million."

Yes, your inability to read is truly world class. Perhaps you can ask Floyd Mayweather to read "The Cat in the Hat" with you so you both improve.

"Wow. Just ... . Wow.
I didn't realize that people could be so fervently ... . So proudly ... incorrect.
#58 | POSTED BY ABH"

You are like the above poster - equal parts hubris and ignorance - almost militantly ignorant.

#59 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-28 07:05 AM | Reply

Paul Waldman: There is a strong disconnect between what the numbers on the economy say, and what the people say. Specifically, what GOP voters say.

POSTED BY EARTHMUSE AT 06:32 PM | 59 COMMENTS | PERMALINK | COMMENT ON THIS ENTRY |

With overall consumer sentiment at a low ebb despite solid economic data, even Democrats who supported Mr. Biden in 2020 say they're not impressed with the economy.

In a recent New York Times/Siena College poll of voters in six battleground states, 62 percent of those voters think the economy is only "fair" or "poor"

better pray it's an abortion election

#60 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-11-28 08:30 AM | Reply

sounds very MAGA to me.......but lefties say it all the time.

#6 | POSTED BY EBERLY

It's one of many MAGA "ideals" that they used to sneer at when libruls said it but now say it themselves as if they thought of it because Trump told them to.

#61 | Posted by jpw at 2023-11-28 08:32 AM | Reply

A simple question then Claudio, since you always like to think you are so smart.

"Who causes prices to rise in America (i.e. who has more influence in setting prices,
in setting wages, in determining bonuses, in determining the benefits of the American Worker?"

A. The President
B. Corporate CEO's

Surely, a smart fellow like yourself can answer this simple question.

#62 | Posted by earthmuse at 2023-11-28 08:38 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#60 I don't pray much Sitz... Atheist.

But I do worry, and daily for this country.
I don't count on the 'abortion vote' or the vote of
ladies alone to win out, as they say, but on the vote of
the youth of today, who unlike their dimwitted parents,
are not blind to the very real threat Trump represents to
a functioning democracy. Ergo, if Trump is elected,
we will no longer be a Democracy, but an Autocratic state
or something worse.

#63 | Posted by earthmuse at 2023-11-28 08:42 AM | Reply

"in setting wages, in determining bonuses, in determining the benefits of the American Worker?"
A. The President
B. Corporate CEO's
Surely, a smart fellow like yourself can answer this simple question.
#62 | POSTED BY EARTHMUSE"

For fast food in CA, it is Gavin Newsom and the result is going to be drastically increased prices which will harm the middle class but help those actually working fast food. It will have a knock on effect of rising the cost of other non-skilled physical labor as it is way easier to work fast food in air conditioning than it is to work landscaping in 100 degree heat for the same money - so, expect prices to continue to rise. The very poor, minimum wage workers will benefit - they get higher wages and you know the government subsidies won't end and the guy left holding the bag is the middle class guy making $60k/year that now can't afford their old lifestyle.

But, you raise an interesting question. Biden and the Democrats have for decades depressed wages for the unskilled by importing millions of illegals. This was a conscious policy decision. The CEO's are not blameless as they still chose to hire them knowing they were illegal.

Perhaps it is time that you realize that the modern Democrat party is the party of the 0.1% that use the poor and ignorant to maintain their power. The unemployed loser or minimum wage earner is way more likely to be a Democrat voter. The 0.1% is also way more likely to be a Democrat. What the Democrats lack is the sensible people in the middle that actually have to live with the results of the Democrat pro-Crime, pro-drug, pro-homeless, pro-public defecation policies.

#64 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-28 09:28 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"#60 I don't pray much Sitz... Atheist.
#63 | POSTED BY EARTHMUSE"

That is sad to hear. But, it explains your acceptance of a life without meaning.

#65 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-28 09:29 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

it explains your acceptance of a life without meaning.

#65 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO

What explains yours?

#66 | Posted by Zed at 2023-11-28 09:38 AM | Reply

pro-public defecation policies.

#64 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO

I recall that being the MAGA attitude inside the Capitol, Jan6.

#67 | Posted by Zed at 2023-11-28 09:39 AM | Reply

Perhaps it is time that you realize that the modern Democrat party is the party of the 0.1% that use the poor and ignorant to maintain their power.

#64 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO

Trump....MAGA.

Jeez.

#68 | Posted by Zed at 2023-11-28 09:40 AM | Reply

#64 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO

Lest I be to obscure-

Trump is a part of the .01%. You do know that, don't you?

And Trump exploits the poor and ignorant to maintain power (MAGA). Brags about it.

#69 | Posted by Zed at 2023-11-28 09:43 AM | Reply

"Trump is a part of the .01%. You do know that, don't you?
#69 | POSTED BY ZED"

I thought your -------- kept claiming he was broke. What happened to that?

#70 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-28 10:10 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I thought your -------- kept claiming he was broke.

#70 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO

What's important is what people like CLAUDIO think.

I mean, you do think?

#71 | Posted by Zed at 2023-11-28 10:16 AM | Reply

#70 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO

I get the impression that you believe in God.

Given that, why do you support the atheist Anti-Christ for presidnet?

#72 | Posted by Zed at 2023-11-28 10:18 AM | Reply

"Trump is a part of the .01%. You do know that, don't you?"

Why do you think anybody believes that actually matters to you, Zed?

When you voted for John Kerry, you held your nose over the stench of his enormous wealth?

#73 | Posted by eberly at 2023-11-28 10:20 AM | Reply

#73 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Defending CLAUDIO?

That could only be you.

#74 | Posted by Zed at 2023-11-28 10:22 AM | Reply

-Defending CLAUDIO?

Surely a creative mind as such as yourself could come up with a better deflection than that

#75 | Posted by eberly at 2023-11-28 10:25 AM | Reply

#73 | POSTED BY EBERLY

CLAUDIO thinks that Trump is one of the Common People.

Whereas all evidence points to Trump thinking the Common People are losers.

So I was wondering what Common Person Claudio's attachment to Trump really is.

#76 | Posted by Zed at 2023-11-28 10:25 AM | Reply

Surely a creative mind as such as yourself could come up with a better

#75 | POSTED BY EBERLY

I'm only as good as my inspiration.

You, at the moment.

#77 | Posted by Zed at 2023-11-28 10:26 AM | Reply

-CLAUDIO thinks that Trump is one of the Common People.

EBERLY doesn't.

But you don't care either way. Anybody who pretends they do is lying to themselves.

It's about as significant as military service.

It's OK. You're not a bad person because you don't really care about the wealth of a presidential candidate.

Just don't pretend otherwise

#78 | Posted by eberly at 2023-11-28 10:30 AM | Reply

#65 my life has plenty of meaning,
but go ahead, and believe in just one more God
than me, and see if that gives your life meaning.
It's yours to waste as you see fit.

(cue George Carlin on God & Religion)

www.youtube.com

#79 | Posted by earthmuse at 2023-11-28 10:44 AM | Reply

#64 interesting rationalization until the last paragraph there Claudio.
wrong...but interesting to see how you think. Cherry picking the one
Dem Governor you could think of was a nice touch...

as to the last paragraph, ah, that one shows your 'true colors',
as the diehard died in the wool Kool aid drinking Ayn Rand adherent that you are...

so happy to disappoint you are your ilk in the next election, and every
election thereafter until I die.

#80 | Posted by earthmuse at 2023-11-28 10:51 AM | Reply

THE BULL
Don't blame the economy on your personal cash flow problems. Maybe you should have made better decisions in your life. Like, for example, graduate from high school, if that's the case, as it is with many who are left struggling to survive on a low income.
Or maybe you're just a perpetual victim.

#57 | POSTED BY TWINPAC AT 2023-11-28 06:06 AM | REPLY

I have no personal problems but I do have eyes and I see how expensive everything is and I know most people are not in a position where they can get by with current prices.

#81 | Posted by THEBULL at 2023-11-28 11:01 AM | Reply

I have no personal problems but I do have eyes and I see how expensive everything is and I know most people are not in a position where they can get by with current prices.

#81 | POSTED BY THEBULL

Guess we shouldn't have created from thin air $8 trillion dollars during the Trump years.

But seriously, corporate profits are at all time highs. Why? Because why would they lower prices if you'll pay it and they don't have much competition. Welcome to Deregulation 101.

#82 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-11-28 11:08 AM | Reply

It's cute how you ignore WHY the numbers are the way they are.

#84 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-11-28 11:48 AM | Reply

You're not a bad person because you don't really care about the wealth of a presidential candidate.

#78 | POSTED BY EBERLY

I never thought I was bad, but your forgiveness is appreciated anyway.

I care about character in a presidential candidate. CLAUDIO does not and, like all Trumpers to date, runs away from explaining why.

It's OK, CLAUDIO. I really do have most of it and you figured out.

#85 | Posted by Zed at 2023-11-28 11:52 AM | Reply

- Guess we shouldn't have created from thin air $8 trillion dollars during the Trump years

Another moron who elects to use pandemic numbers his own party voted FOR.

Between you and Rine, I'm not sure who gets the schittbag human of the year award.

#86 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2023-11-28 12:46 PM | Reply

Another moron who elects to use pandemic numbers his own party voted FOR.

Between you and Rine, I'm not sure who gets the schittbag human of the year award.

#86 | Posted by lfthndthrds

^This from the cult that totally ignores the pandemic effects when trying to blame all inflation on biden.

#87 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2023-11-28 12:59 PM | Reply

Trump's economy was ........ bricks before the Pandemic.

"Donald Trump Built a National Debt So Big (Even Before the Pandemic) That It'll Weigh Down the Economy for Years

The "King of Debt" promised to reduce the national debt " then his tax cuts made it surge. Add in the pandemic, and he oversaw the third-biggest deficit increase of any president.

That's nearly twice as much as what Americans owe on student loans, car loans, credit cards and every other type of debt other than mortgages, combined, according to data from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

It amounts to about $23,500 in new federal debt for every person in the country."

www.propublica.org

#88 | Posted by Corky at 2023-11-28 01:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Another moron who elects to use pandemic numbers his own party voted FOR.

#86 | POSTED BY LFTHNDTHRDS

Another moron who "forgets" about Trump's signature achievement, a massive tax cut not for LFTHNDTHRDS or anyone he knows.

#89 | Posted by Zed at 2023-11-28 01:06 PM | Reply

- Guess we shouldn't have created from thin air $8 trillion dollars during the Trump years
Another moron who elects to use pandemic numbers his own party voted FOR.
Between you and Rine, I'm not sure who gets the schittbag human of the year award.

#86 | POSTED BY LFTHNDTHRDS

Sorry, did you say Democrats supported the Trump tax cuts...even though they all voted against it?

Pandemic Aid under Trump was only $3 trillion. And with no oversight to the business aid by Republican design, much was taken by fraud. Republicans held the support for individuals hostage until they got almost twice as much money for businesses.

Maybe if Trump hadn't bungled the pandemic from the start, it wouldn't have been needed.

#90 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-11-28 01:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The bankruptcy-prone------------ put up numbers that'll never be equaled.

abcnews.go.com

#91 | Posted by reinheitsgebot at 2023-11-28 01:22 PM | Reply

Claudio is beating Truthhurts like a red headed step child.

#15 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

There wasn't anything in Claud's comment that he didn't pull from his posterior.

#92 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2023-11-28 02:55 PM | Reply

That is sad to hear. But, it explains your acceptance of a life without meaning.
#65 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO

What a ------ up thing to say. What's your problem?

#93 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2023-11-28 03:32 PM | Reply

Guess we shouldn't have created from thin air $8 trillion dollars during the Trump years.
But seriously, corporate profits are at all time highs. Why? Because why would they lower prices if you'll pay it and they don't have much competition. Welcome to Deregulation 101.

#82 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT AT 2023-11-28 11:08 AM | REPLY

Faucis shutdowns were a disaster and cost the country over 8 trillion dollars. Biden meanwhile is spending over 6 trillion per year and he's not paying a soul to sit at home.

#94 | Posted by THEBULL at 2023-11-28 04:33 PM | Reply

Fauci wasn't in charge of the government, you pinheaded mouth-breathing moron.

#95 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2023-11-28 04:55 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Faucis shutdowns were a disaster and cost the country over 8 trillion dollars. Biden meanwhile is spending over 6 trillion per year and he's not paying a soul to sit at home.

#94 | Posted by THEBULL

How many lives did the shutdown save and which of your family members would you have sacrificed in order to not do the shutdown?

#96 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2023-11-28 06:03 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Glad I have Clownio and Elderly blocked.

They could watch Trump take a big steaming ---- on their front lawns of their double-wides and Trump would say "I didn't take a dump on your lawn, Hunter Biden did!", and they are dumb enough to believe Trump over their own eyes.

#97 | Posted by a_monson at 2023-11-28 08:30 PM | Reply

97

I'm glad as well, abortion breath

#98 | Posted by eberly at 2023-11-28 08:47 PM | Reply

Faucis shutdowns were a disaster and cost the country over 8 trillion dollars.
#94 | POSTED BY THEBULL

Hahahaha! Cost half our GDP. I don't think so.
Anyway, what was the cost of a million dead?
Or was that a revenue generating event.

#99 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-11-28 08:51 PM | Reply

"Faucis shutdowns"?

When there isn't a known cure keeping your distance from those who have an Airborne illness is the traditional way of combating the disease and it's been this way since the time of Christ you subliterate homunculus.

#100 | Posted by Tor at 2023-11-28 09:11 PM | Reply

Masks distancing shut downs vaccines saved millions of lives.

You're welcome

#101 | Posted by truthhurts at 2023-11-28 09:22 PM | Reply

"shutdowns"

Remember all the times Republicans shut down the government?

The history of government shutdowns and how long they last
www.axios.com

#102 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-11-28 09:31 PM | Reply

"Masks distancing shut downs vaccines saved millions of lives.
You're welcome
#101 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS"

Not according to the actual science. This is just a liberal talking point now so they don't feel so ------- stupid for masking while driving alone in their cars with the windows rolled up.

www.economist.com

#103 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-28 10:14 PM | Reply

"Biden meanwhile is spending over 6 trillion per year and he's not paying a soul to sit at home.
#94 | POSTED BY THEBULL"

Biden is going to run $2T deficits are far as the eye can see during his 'great' economy. Never has the country been this mismanaged before. Remember, these $2T deficits don't even include the debt cancellation giveaways he continues to tout. This country is on the edge of disaster and can't afford another 2 years with this moron much less another term.

#104 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-28 10:19 PM | Reply

Is that the covid meta-analysis they got trashed as error filled and retracted by the author?

#105 | Posted by Tor at 2023-11-28 10:30 PM | Reply

"Biden is going to run $2T deficits"

Feels like it was just yesterday, when Bush was spending $7T invading countries with GDPs 5% that size, and Conservatives crowed "Reagan proved deficits don't matter."

#106 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-11-28 10:32 PM | Reply

Partisanship has rendered what could be an interesting discussion of the economy into an insult-fest where everything is based on emotion and hatred of the "other side". Everyone making up or cherry-picking facts as they go along.

#107 | Posted by moder8 at 2023-11-28 10:59 PM | Reply

"when Bush was spending $7T invading countries with GDPs 5% that size, and Conservatives crowed "Reagan proved deficits don't matter."
#106 | POSTED BY SNOOFY"

All those saying that are now Democrats. They hate Trump and have switched parties to the Democrats because the Democrats don't care about deficits and now love war on top of that.

Enjoy your new friends -------.

#108 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-28 11:19 PM | Reply

Claudia is just angry because she doesn't have any friends.

#109 | Posted by Tor at 2023-11-28 11:51 PM | Reply

"Claudia is just angry because she doesn't have any friends.
#109 | POSTED BY TOR"

If I was given the choice between zero friends and a bunch of friends but they are all Never-Trump, Neocons - I would choose zero friends.

Fortunately for myself, I don't need to make that choice. I feel bad for you that you are facing this reality.

#110 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-29 12:00 AM | Reply

If given a choice between a donkey dick and a horse ---- you would choose to suck them both because you don't have the courage to suck on a loaded gun.

#111 | Posted by Tor at 2023-11-29 12:02 AM | Reply

"If given a choice between a donkey dick and a horse ----
#111 | POSTED BY TOR"

This is a poor attempt even for a ------- like you.

#112 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-29 12:07 AM | Reply

Prove me wrong, put that gun in your mouth.

#113 | Posted by Tor at 2023-11-29 12:09 AM | Reply

"Prove me wrong, put that gun in your mouth.
#113 | POSTED BY TOR"

This comment should get you banned. I doubt that it will because this site is a ------- safe space - but I have no doubt that if I had said the same, I would be banned.

#114 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-29 12:12 AM | Reply

No need to kill yourself Claudia it's not like your parents would die with shame if they saw what you've become.

#115 | Posted by Tor at 2023-11-29 12:15 AM | Reply

And here's the big story about Obama and hot dogs.

wgntv.com

#116 | Posted by Tor at 2023-11-29 12:16 AM | Reply

Can't read it in your third world country? Don't worry.

CHICAGO " As the start of another baseball season is upon us, Chicagoans are reminded of what goes hand in hand with baseball: hot dogs!

If you ask anyone from Chicago what their favorite hot dog stand is, you're bound to get a small history lesson on why it's their favorite and why you should give it a try.

The debate as to where the best dogs are made in Chicago has been ongoing for years and years.

High-tech batting cages open in Lincoln Square
WGN's Chicago Scene recently ventured to the city's Ravenswood neighborhood to talk to Mike Payne, owner of the legendary Byron's Hot Dogs, to get some answers.

With two locations in the area for over 40 years and having served Chicago's famous "meal on a bun" on the South Lawn of the White House to former President Barack Obama and our nation's senators, Payne is a bit of an expert on the topic.

Mike and Ann Payne with President Obama
With so many options and so many opinions on hot dogs, we asked Payne what makes Bryon's so special?

"Byron's goes a step further than classic Chicago style hot dog where you have mustard, relish, tomato, relish, onion, pickle, hot peppers, and celery salt. We take it a few steps further with lettuce, cucumber, and green peppers to the classic ingredient of the Chicago-style hot dog and that's how we came up with the Byron's hog dog," Payne said.

"We call it a meal on a bun," he said.

Voted best fries in the nation from GQ Magazine, you'll have a feast fit for a King with a hot dog, fries and a pop. To learn more about Byron's Hot Dogs and download their app, click here.

Yes sir things are awesome in America and suck in russia.

#117 | Posted by Tor at 2023-11-29 12:18 AM | Reply

but I have no doubt that if I had said the same, I would be banned.
#114 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO

To be a Conservative, you must first be a Victim.

#118 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-11-29 12:29 AM | Reply

"#115 | POSTED BY TOR"

Looks like you realized that you stepped on your own dick and are now trying to backtrack. Pathetic. Own your words -------.

#119 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-29 12:29 AM | Reply

Go on now keep telling us all about how you know the truth about Obama paying how much again for hot dogs and pizza?

#120 | Posted by Tor at 2023-11-29 12:34 AM | Reply

"#120 | POSTED BY TOR"

Yeah, perfectly natural to spend $65k to fly in 'hotdogs' - they go great with the walnut sauce according to you Democrat pedophiles.

#121 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-29 12:35 AM | Reply

Did he actually spend that amount or did some people idly speculate he did?

#122 | Posted by Tor at 2023-11-29 12:36 AM | Reply

"Did he actually spend that amount or did some people idly speculate he did?
#122 | POSTED BY TOR"

It was included in their internal emails. Enjoy the walnut sauce creep.

#123 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-29 12:37 AM | Reply

And who is this "their"?

Congress? The white house? The Supreme court?

Ps save it for the bathhouse sport.

#124 | Posted by Tor at 2023-11-29 12:39 AM | Reply

"And who is this "their"?
#124 | POSTED BY TOR"

You don't know how to use Google -------?

wikileaks.org

#125 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-29 12:45 AM | Reply

And who is this "their"?

Ease up... you don't want him to have a stroke. Or have one of the socks come in to bail him out.

#126 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-11-29 12:48 AM | Reply

Oh so it wasn't an official finding by an authority figure it was some random Organization no one's ever heard of engaging in idle chatter. That's something humans do when they have friends. This concept of course is completely alien to you.

#127 | Posted by Tor at 2023-11-29 12:51 AM | Reply

" When you voted for John Kerry, you held your nose over the stench of his enormous wealth?"

Did you miss the part where Kerry proposed higher taxes for folks like him?

A lot of stench disappears.

#128 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 01:08 AM | Reply

How close did John Kerry ever get to dragging that proposal to the finish line?

#129 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 01:21 AM | Reply

" How close did John Kerry ever get to dragging that proposal to the finish line?"

We'll never know. W got elected, and he and Cheney promptly reset America's fiscal sites from surpluses to deficits. Without a single Dem vote.

Obama's fault, right?

#130 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 01:24 AM | Reply

Obama? Waltzed into office with huge majorities in both chambers. You want to blame W's "compassionate conservatism" for a result of bad fiscal policy? I'm right there with you. What have Democrats actually done to right the ship? With a GOP House we had a brief period of sequester where Boehner pulled a fast one on Obama. That was it.

#131 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 01:35 AM | Reply

If I recall, you vehemently oppose the SALT cap which is actually a tax on the wealthiest.

#132 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 01:37 AM | Reply

" Obama? Waltzed into office with huge majorities in both chambers."

You need to grab a history book.

Or are you signaling you're not up for a serious conversation by lying?

#133 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 01:37 AM | Reply

"If I recall, you vehemently oppose the SALT cap"

Nope.

I vehemently opposed the way the salt cap was imposed: specifically, to hurt four blue states.

Advisors Stephen Moore and Jon Feehrey both admitted as much.

#134 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 01:42 AM | Reply

Remember back in the days when you didn't want the tax code to be used as a weapon?

Good times.

#135 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 01:44 AM | Reply

" You want to blame W's "compassionate conservatism" for a result of bad fiscal policy?"

No, I want to blame his resetting the fiscal sites from surpluses to deficits.

You, on the other hand, voted for these enablers back then, and ever since.

#136 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 01:46 AM | Reply

In 2009:

Senate

Party split of the 111th Senate
For the bulk of the 11th session of Congress, there were around 57 Democrats, 2 Independents who caucused with the Democrats and 41 Republicans. This gave the Democrats the advantage in the Senate, having the majority of members on their side.

House of Representatives

Party split of the 111th House
For the U.S. House, there were a total of 255 Democratic representatives and 179 Republican representatives. There were no third party members in the House

ballotpedia.org

#137 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 01:47 AM | Reply

Those numbers are a strong majority. Are those numbers a weak majority in your view?

#138 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 01:48 AM | Reply

" I vehemently opposed the way the salt cap was imposed: specifically, to hurt four blue states.

Advisors Stephen Moore and Jon Feehrey both admitted as much.

#134 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2023-11-29 01:42 AM | FLAG: "

How would you impose a SALT cap differently?

#139 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 01:49 AM | Reply

#134 and 135. You are trying to make it personal. That is counter productive.

#140 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 01:50 AM | Reply

"How would you impose a SALT cap differently?
#139 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER"

They want to soak the rich - except if those rich as Democrats in blue states. In that case, they want less taxes because they are patently dishonest. Did the Dems close that Carried Interest Loophole yet? How about that ban on insider trading by congress? The way the 0.1% lead the dumb -------- by the nose is a wonder to behold.

#141 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-29 01:53 AM | Reply

" Did the Dems close that Carried Interest Loophole yet?"

Republicans have written the last four tax codes. Trump had every opportunity; instead he gave new tax breaks to real estate developers.

Democrats' fault, right?

#142 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 01:56 AM | Reply

Why haven't Dems written any tax codes? They certainly have had the stars align politically to do so?

#143 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 02:02 AM | Reply

Democrats are often too busy trying to directly help Republican victims to rewrite the tax codes.

A better question would be when are the Republicans going to stop writing tax codes with a willful intention of hurting people in blue states?

#144 | Posted by Tor at 2023-11-29 02:11 AM | Reply

"How would you impose a SALT cap differently?"

Since the inception of the income tax 110 years ago, one abiding principle was:

You don't pay taxes on taxes paid.

#145 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 02:17 AM | Reply

"Why haven't Dems written any tax codes?"

Seems they were busy with healthcare and infrastructure.

"They certainly have had the stars align politically to do so"

Did you flunk civics? Obama had majorities for all of five months.

#146 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 02:19 AM | Reply

" Did you flunk civics? Obama had majorities for all of five months.

#146 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2023-11-29 02:19 AM | FLAG: "

He had majorities for his first two years. He lost the filibuster majority after 5 months.

#147 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 02:20 AM | Reply

" Since the inception of the income tax 110 years ago, one abiding principle was:

You don't pay taxes on taxes paid.

#145 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2023-11-29 02:17 AM | FLAG: "

So people living in states with a higher state income tax pay less to the federal government than those who reside in states with a lower state income tax.

You didn't answer the question so I will ask it again: How would you impose a SALT cap differently?

#148 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 02:24 AM | Reply

" He lost the filibuster majority after 5 months."

And, if you'll recall, that's when McConnell set the all-time record for filibusters in less than half the time. I lived through that; how is it you didn't?!?

Like I said ... 5 months. Your suggestion the "stars were aligned" must've ... you know, come from the hip.

#149 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 02:27 AM | Reply

" And, if you'll recall, that's when McConnell set the all-time record for filibusters in less than half the time. I lived through that; how is it you didn't?!?"

During that same time Harry Reid "filled the tree" more than 200 years of prior Senate activity. Funny how you leave pit the salient part. Do you not remember that? I sure as hell do.

#150 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 02:30 AM | Reply

" So people living in states with a higher state income tax pay less to the federal government than those who reside in states with a lower state income tax."

Not necessarily. Some states charge more for sales tax, real estate taxes, or other ad valorem taxes. That's why either state income taxes or state sales taxes can be deducted on Schedule A.

Texas, for example has no income tax. But it's not considered a low-tax state, it falls right around the middle.

#151 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 02:30 AM | Reply

Pit = out

#152 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 02:30 AM | Reply

#151. So if I understand your position correctly it's that state income tax being the sole target is the issue?

#153 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 02:32 AM | Reply

" During that same time Harry Reid "filled the tree" more than 200 years of prior Senate activity."

Huh?

Did that nullify the record filibusters in less than half the time, or not?

#154 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 02:32 AM | Reply

#151

No.

The concept of taxing taxes paid is new. So was the concept of using the tax code as a weapon.

I noticed you've been silent on that issue. The authors specifically admitted they were trying to hurt blue states. They also said they were trying to hurt public Unions, and quite specifically, public Unions in blue states. What's your reaction to that?

#155 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 02:36 AM | Reply

" Did that nullify the record filibusters in less than half the time, or not?

#154 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2023-11-29 02:32 AM | FLAG: "

When the GOP regained control of the Senate, in the first month McConnell allowed more amendments than Reid had allowed in the prior 2 years. Do you not remember this?

#156 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 02:43 AM | Reply

" The concept of taxing taxes paid is new. So was the concept of using the tax code as a weapon"

You're better at the tax code than I am. Please explain how a SALT cap, assuming you support it, should be administered differently. I'm not arguing with you on this. I'm trying to better understand your position.

#157 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 02:46 AM | Reply

"Please explain how a SALT cap, assuming you support it,"

I don't like the idea of paying taxes on taxes paid.

I particularly don't like how the authors only included it as a weapon. It's not like they believe in the cap, they just believe in hurting the four blue states.

#158 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 02:56 AM | Reply

"When the GOP regained control of the Senate, in the first month McConnell allowed more amendments than Reid had allowed in the prior 2 years"

Which is apples and atom bombs compared to setting the filibuster record in less than half the time.

#159 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 02:58 AM | Reply

" Which is apples and atom bombs compared to setting the filibuster record in less than half the time.

#159 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2023-11-29 02:58 AM | FLAG: "

No it isn't. The US Senate lauds itself as the most deliberative legislative body in the world. Reid entered legislation that was "take it or leave it" to a degree that exceeded 200 years of precedence. No amendments allowed. None. How do you support and defend that?

#160 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 03:20 AM | Reply

" I particularly don't like how the authors only included it as a weapon. It's not like they believe in the cap, they just believe in hurting the four blue states.

#158 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2023-11-29 02:56 AM | FLAG: "

Fine. How would you administer a SALT cap differently? Or do you oppose it?

#161 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 03:23 AM | Reply

"Reid entered legislation that was "take it or leave it""

As I recall, about 2 of every 3 "amendments" offered were to end Obamacare.

Were all those supposed to be taken seriously?!?

#162 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 03:23 AM | Reply

"Fine. How would you administer a SALT cap differently? Or do you oppose it?"

I've answered that seven ways from Sunday. Not paying taxes on taxes paid was fine, from 1913 until Trump.

And if you believe in the SALT cap, why isn't there a Mortgage Interest cap, or a Medical Expense cap? In addition, Trump already eliminated deductibility of Union dues, so that section is GONE from the Schedule A.

Worst of all, though, is how he f**ked over folks who get legal settlements: the GROSS is taxable, and the lawyer's fees aren't deductible. The only exception is if the damages are for discrimination. One client got $90K, and barely cleared a third of it by the end.

#163 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 03:29 AM | Reply

" As I recall, about 2 of every 3 "amendments" offered were to end Obamacare.

Were all those supposed to be taken seriously?!?

#162 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2023-11-29 03:23 AM | FLAG: "

That's a deflection. Amendments can be voted down on a simple majority vote which Democrats had. Reid didn't allow any amendments at all and then bitched because the opposition party wasn't allowed to amend out a poison pill on a piece of legislation that they were 90% ok with.

#164 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 03:31 AM | Reply

"The US Senate lauds itself as the most deliberative legislative body in the world. "

Exactly.

Which is why Mitch could stop everything with 41 Senators or more. Which led to...say it with me...setting the all-time record for filibusters in less than half the time.

Deliberate is one thing. Dead in the water, regardless what is proposed, is something else entirely.

#165 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 03:32 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

" And if you believe in the SALT cap, why isn't there a Mortgage Interest cap, or a Medical Expense cap? In addition, Trump already eliminated deductibility of Union dues, so that section is GONE from the Schedule A."

We are finally getting somewhere. So other caps should also be part of the tax code?

#166 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 03:36 AM | Reply

"That's a deflection. Amendments can be voted down on a simple majority vote which Democrats had"

It never gets to the amendment stage if it can't get past the filibuster.

"Reid didn't allow any amendments at all"
"Amendments can be voted down on a simple majority vote which Democrats had"

Please talk to both sides of your mouth, and pick one. If amendments can be tossed aside that easily, there's no reason to skip them unless they're totally for show.

And speaking of totally for show...remind us how many times Republicans tried to overturn Obamacare: 10 times? 20? 40? 50?

Try 70+

#167 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 03:38 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

" Which is why Mitch could stop everything with 41 Senators or more. Which led to...say it with me...setting the all-time record for filibusters in less than half the time."

Do you not understand the correlation of that and with setting the all time record for filled trees going back to the founding of the Senate?

Cause and effect.

#168 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 03:38 AM | Reply

"So other caps should also be part of the tax code?"

There are caps all over the place. As you admitted upthread, you aren't really up on the tax code.

Why haven't you addressed the purposeful weaponization of the tax code? You certainly lost your schittt about Lois Lerner in the past.

#169 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 03:40 AM | Reply

"Do you not understand the correlation of that and with setting the all time record for filled trees going back to the founding of the Senate?"

Do you not get when the other side's constant amendment is "...and repeal Obamacare!" each and every time, they get ignored after a while?

I would've done the same thing as Reid, after McConnell's dictum to his foot soldiers: No today, No tomorrow, No forever. Even if it's good for America.

If you think that's good governance, you can GFY.

#170 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 03:43 AM | Reply

BTW, I've got to give it up: I'm in STL right now, tending to my older sister, who had a massive stroke 4 weeks ago. As of today, she can sit up. That's it. Doesn't recognize anyone or anything.

My younger brother is coming by early tomorrow; we're spending tomorrow cleaning out her storage locker, and getting him a POA.

I'd better hit the hay.

G'night, all.

#171 | Posted by Danforth at 2023-11-29 03:48 AM | Reply

I hear what you are saying about Obamacare. There is absolutely a bad faith argument to be made about stripping that away in Senate legislation. Okay. So what's mext? Just rubber stamp everything Reid puts forth? No. The result was some gridlock which is a feature and not a bug of our legislative system.

You seem to view it differently.

#172 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 03:56 AM | Reply

" BTW, I've got to give it up: I'm in STL right now, tending to my older sister, who had a massive stroke 4 weeks ago. As of today, she can sit up. That's it. Doesn't recognize anyone or anything."

Damn. So sorry to hear that. For what it's worth you and yours have my best wishes and prayers.

#173 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-11-29 03:57 AM | Reply

DANFORTH - Good luck with some hard going.

#174 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2023-11-29 05:34 AM | Reply

DANFORTH ~ Good Luck. I went through the same thing with my mother. She didn't remember anybody ~ including me. It's really tough. I know exactly what you're going through. I'm glad you have some help. I couldn't have done everything I had to do without the help of the neighbors.

#175 | Posted by Twinpac at 2023-11-29 06:36 AM | Reply

"Fine. How would you administer a SALT cap differently? Or do you oppose it?
#161 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER"

The -------- love progressive taxation until it actually impacts them. The SALT cap is one of the greatest things ever in driving responsible government. I don't want a state cheating the federal government out of their due because the state was so irresponsible on the property taxes they charge. Frankly, the SALT cap SPECIFICALLY is targeted to soak the rich. It should be universally loved by all that proclaim that they want the tax system more progressive.

#176 | Posted by Claudio at 2023-11-29 06:45 AM | Reply

Good advice.

#177 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2023-11-29 06:50 AM | Reply

#177 for TWINPAC at #175.

#178 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2023-11-29 06:51 AM | Reply

10-4 DOC, and thanks.

#179 | Posted by Twinpac at 2023-11-29 07:12 AM | Reply

The -------- love progressive taxation until it actually impacts them. The SALT cap is one of the greatest things ever in driving responsible government. I don't want a state cheating the federal government out of their due because the state was so irresponsible on the property taxes they charge. Frankly, the SALT cap SPECIFICALLY is targeted to soak the rich. It should be universally loved by all that proclaim that they want the tax system more progressive.

#176 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO

Irresponsible on the property taxes they charge? OH! You are talking about Texas where property taxes are often almost 2%.

You do know REPUBLICANS are trying to get rid of the SALT cap right?

It's not progressive. It only applies to higher income tax payers even now as lower income payers generally only qualify for the standard deduction.

So WTF are you talking about?

#180 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-11-29 10:46 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I hate the SALT cap. It screws me big time.

#181 | Posted by eberly at 2023-11-29 11:14 AM | Reply

"The benefit of repealing the SALT cap would mostly accrue to high-income households since high-income taxpayers are more likely to itemize their deductions and because state and local tax payments tend to increase with income. The Joint Committee on Taxation projected that more than half of benefits in 2019 from the SALT deduction accrued to taxpayers with incomes over $200,000. Furthermore, according to the Tax Policy Center, most of the benefit of repealing the tax cap would accrue to taxpayers in the top 20 percent based on income; and overall, only 10 percent of households would see any benefit from a repeal of the SALT cap."

#182 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-11-29 11:23 AM | Reply

Sorry, but as long as GDP includes public sector purchasing of private manufactured goods, GDP is a malleable tool to garner votes. Both sides inflate purchases when necessary to make the number look better when it needs to, like going into vote years. Numbers don't lie, which includes numbers in history that prove my point term after term.

#183 | Posted by humtake at 2023-11-29 12:30 PM | Reply

"Sorry, but as long as GDP includes public sector purchasing of private manufactured goods, GDP is a malleable tool to garner votes."

So, what's a better tool.

#184 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-11-29 12:31 PM | Reply

I think the obvious, that BBQ pointed out above IS true...but it is important to look at how both parties interpret this...

"The reason most see the economy as terrible, is because of inequity." -BBQ, post #3

I would easily agree to the truth of this statement, but what I believe is important
is how both parties approach this unfortunate fact.

The Democrats I know (including myself) admit that the disparity is bad, admit that the
economy is both unfair, and seemingly getting more so. Most have either adapted, or tried
to supplement their income w extra gig jobs, retraining, reschooling, etc... In other words,
they have taken an unfortunate situation, and tried to make positive changes to try to adapt.
Not a perfect solution to a rotten situation, but positive, in that they are attempting to take
control and remedy the situation, or to at least mitigate or alleviate it to some degree.

The Republicans I know (which are 95% of the people I know in West Virginia) are angry (and rightfully so),
but look to place blame in ALL the wrong places. They want to blame Biden (stats show Biden has taken a
terrible economy and situation ala COVID) and helped to mitigate the worst of it, and has started to
improve the economy. Keep in mind, most of the cost of living comes from CEO's and corporate heads,
not the President and his policies. Then the Republicans want to blame minorities. An easy target,
and a tried and true deflection from the right. Stoke the hatred of minorities to divert attention from
those CEO's (most of which are GOP) from raising the rates on everyday goods across the board. And at least
in WV, only account for like 2% of the total population (i.e. there are not enough minorities in WV to worry
about white people!). And then they have the cult-like obsession with a Savior Figure, which is what I would
argue Trump is to them. They think he can SAVE them from their predicament. Even if he DID care, which he
clearly does not (aside from getting their votes), he could not convince the CEO's of this nation not to gouge
everyday Americans (precisely because he is one of them, or seeks to be one of the billionaires who gouge the
regular people for the maximum profit). So once again, the non-rich GOP are not taking positive steps to
remedy their personal situations (and they are truly the only one's who can change their own fate), but instead
they are playing the victim, and hoping for a Savior, all the while lashing out at those around them (minorities, democrats)
that have little to nothing to do with their economic position in life.

To which I would give the following advice (which I have repeatedly given to my own college aged son). "Put on your
'Big Boy diapers son, and stop whining'. Only you, and you alone, can make yourself successful. You think it was easy
for me? I got a first college degree, it did not work out. I worked for my dad's union, until he told me to leave,
because he saw unions collapsing. I went back to college and got a 2nd degree. The rest was all heads down and hard work.
Every day, whether I wanted to work or not. That is LIFE! It's not fair. No one owes you squat! It doesn't always
reward people who deserve it. Only hard work, and continuous effort will get you anywhere..."

#185 | Posted by earthmuse at 2023-11-29 01:21 PM | Reply

Not according to the actual science. This is just a liberal talking point now so they don't feel so ------- stupid for masking while driving alone in their cars with the windows rolled up.

www.economist.com

#103 | Posted by Claudio

So why did more republicans die from covid than liberals, despite liberals living in more crowded areas?

#186 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2023-11-29 01:46 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

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